Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    I was under the impression that the House of Corrections is not
    a very strict place in which to live. I thought the atmosphere was
    one of a private home where tv's etc. are allowed and the prisoners
    are allowed out on 24 hour passes. This was my impression anyway.
    
    It must be a relief for your friend to have this guy put away, I'm
    sure it is a big part of her rehabilitation.
    
    What a world we live in.

    
    	In this day and age where you hear of convicted murders that
    	don't even spend day one behind bars, it's nice to hear of at
    	least one cases where the purp got put away. I'm often left
    	wondering why the criminal always has all the rights, but the
    	victim has none.
    
    	G_B

    Nice or not, he will not be the most beloved fellow, what with a Dad as
    a judge in the D.C. court system.  It is my considered opinion that he
    may come out with a size 11 a**hole!
    
    

    
    	.0> Her attacker was sentenced to 5-7 years in the ...
    
    	He'll be out in 1.5.		(just my guess)
    
    					nancy b.
    

re: .0, .3:

Just out of curiousity, why do people who seem to object to rape when
it touches their own lives take what may appear to an outside observer to
be a certain amount of pleasure when contemplating a strong possibility
of homosexual rape of a convicted criminal?

Is this the society you want to build?

Martin.

          re: .6 (Martin Minow)

          > re: .0, .3:

          > Just out of curiousity, why do people who seem to object to
          > rape when it touches their own lives take what may appear to an
          > outside observer to be a certain amount of pleasure when
          > contemplating a strong possibility of homosexual rape of a
          > convicted criminal?
            ^                ^

          nit :    The person the author of .0 and .3 referred to is a
                   convicted **rapist**, not "just" a convicted criminal
                   whose "crime" could be anything from passing a bad check
                   (which can be a felony) to possessing marijuana.

          I don't think "pleasure" is the right word to describe the
          emotion felt by someone (whose life has been affected by rape)
          when contemplating the possibility of prison rape of the rapist.
          After rereading the 2 sentences in .0 and .3 which probably
          prompted your reply, it doesn't seem to me that "pleasure" is
          where the author was coming from, either.

          For me, imagining that the man who raped me was Himself raped in
          a similarly violent situation gives me a sense of reconciliation
          ... of a closure of sorts.  What else could make Him better
          understand how I felt; certainly not getting out of prison on His
          first chance for parole, and certainly not having to pay me
          reparations.  Perhaps if He was violently raped in prison, He is
          now having nightmares, as I do.  What better deterrent could
          there be for Him to not rape again?

          Now that I think about it, I bet that His experiencing a
          physically violent prison rape would be the _only_ thing that
          could cause Him to proceed from contrition.


          > Is this the society you want to build?

          Being philosophical in this context is difficult for me.  I think
          Peggy Leedburg or Mike Valenza would be able to provide an
          interesting perspective on this question.

                                                       nancy b.



re.6

The thought of ANYONE ever experiencing rape makes me nauseous.  The jokes about
prison rape turn my stomach.  It's not nobility or any great capacity for
forgiveness in me either.  I do not believe that rape made me a better person,
merely tested the limits of my ability to survive.  Had the man who raped me
in turn been raped it would have done me no good, it would not have made me
happy.

Yet there is a certain sublime, if terrifying, symmetry to it.

  Ann

    re .8 >Yet there is a certain sublime, if terrifying, symmetry to
          >it.
    
    That's your sense of justice talking to you. In our modern world
    where we put 'mercy' ahead of justice, there's still something
    that feels right about the 'eye for an eye' code.

There are several presumptions in the "symmetry" argument:

-- it is not clear that the convict will be raped.  He may become a
   prison rapist: after all, he does have some experience along those lines.
   Is that a fit punishment for, say, a 17-year old car thief?

-- Condoning prison rape may also "educate" incarcerated criminals into seeing
   rape -- and society's disinterest in the existance of prison rape --
   as a "normal" part of their existance.  This does not seem to me to
   diminish the amount of rape in any part of our society.

>    that feels right about the 'eye for an eye' code.

"Eye for an eye" -- at least in its original form -- means restitution
of equal value.  It was never (in Jewish theology) meant to be taken
literally.  Even granting the Christian interpretation, there is nothing
in our form of society that asks other convicts to carry out such a
sentence.

Martin.

    Martin, were you asking to understand other people, or so someone would
    deliver you a nice fat pitch to hit?
    
    Absent perfect justice, I find the desire for symbolic revenge
    understandable in human terms...if you expect more compassion
    from a victim towards a rapist, you are forgetting yourself (ie,
    I think you presume too much.)
    
    DougO

I was asking what I was asking.  I was also implicitly asking for some
compassion for the 17 year old car thief who used to sleep on my livingroom
sofa when he didn't have a place to live -- my wife was his parole officer.

I have no idea whether he was raped while he was in prison (in fact, I
rather doubt it), but he committed suicide rather than return.

I fully understand the desire for revenge, but I also have to ask the victim
-- as citizen -- to see her own pain in a fuller context.  To some extent,
this discussion reminds me of the presidential debate, when Mike Dukakis
was asked what he would do if his wife were attacked.  Raping a convict
-- whether he was convicted for rape or car theft or drunk driving or
whatever, cannot help eliminate rape in our society.

Martin.

re.9 'sense of justice'

I do not believe that it is just for a rapist to be raped.  I do not believe
it is just for _anyone_  to be raped.

re.11

It was not my intent in .8 to infer justice or to presume that, if incarcerated,
a rapist would be raped.  The symmetry I spoke of was the horrible nauseous
_itching_ feeling I get when I hear that a rapist has been raped -- much the
same feeling I get/got when I contemplate(d) having been raped myself.

re.12 'compassion'

I don't know.  Having lived through it myself, I have a wealth of compassion.

  Ann

    My thanks to Martin for raising this issue. The implied sentiment
    in the note in question disturbed me greatly. Hearing such things
    makes me fear for the future of the planet.
    
    Eileen

re: .17

I suspect there are many women who could explain the differences between anal
and vaginal rape (and oral, for that matter) but I'm not too interested
in learning them.  In all three cases, the crime is generally considered
by therapists to be one of power and dominance and not one of sexual pleasure
(for the rapist).

Martin.

ps: somewhat against my expectations, there is no mention of rape in
the index to Jessica Mitford's prison study: "Kind and Usual Punishment" (1974).
Nor do any of the titles of the articles in Robin Morgan's "Sisterhood is
Powerful" (1970) directly mention rape.

    The idea that someone would hope that a convict would get raped
    in prison is chilling, but I've been viewing these sentiments in
    the same light as someone who's been having an aggravating day
    putting up with his or her boss' crap throwing arms up in
    frustration and saying, "Oooooo...I would love to strangle that
    clown with my bare hands."  That person doesn't *really* want to
    kill his or her boss, but it's a way of blowing off frustration.
    
    --- jerry

    Greetings,
    
    Sorry to stick my nose into this issue so long after it has been
    put to rest but I can only handle WOMMANNOTES for a short periods
    of time and something I read makes me nuts and I have to lay off
    this conference for a while. Anyway about the Maryland House of
    Corrections...in an earlier life I used to go there as a missionary
    for our church to teach inmates religion. For what its worth it
    is a very old prison and very crowded. Not the country club type
    that you hear about. 
    
    It was odd when I used to be in that program that I never had much
    sympathy for the convicts that were there. I grew up believing that
    we get what we deserve when we do things wrong when I was face to
    face with real criminals I found them to be amazingly stupid and
    real BS artists (hey I'm field service I know BS when I hear it!)
    One of the (we were expected to call these guys inmates) criminals
    must have thought he had made a real pal out of me and told me he
    was only in for 2 murders and rape. What a sweetheart! I never wished
    brutality on any of these guys but certianly hoped they would do
    something close to their full sentence.  

    So for what its worth this guy's not very comfortable but the parole
    thing in Maryland is a joke. As long as he doesn't murder any guards
    he'll be out in 1.5 years. 
    
    Fred Mudgett