Conference turris::womannotes-v3

Pam,

I make a significant amount of money more than my live-in SO, and the
way we handle it is on a percentage basis based upon how much each of
us makes.  If I make 40% more, I pay 40% more.  It works out very well 
for us.

Good luck!

Carla

P.S.  I do hope you celebrated your promotion privately, if he won't 
      acknowledge it.  You deserve the congratulations!

    When I was married, both of our paychecks went into one bank
    account, and money was taken out "as needed"... there was no his, mine,
    only ours.

    My parents have worked this way for 40+ years, and no problems, and if
    I ever get married again, it will be that way... 

    Working that way, you never had the problem that .0 has...

    Perhaps trying the "ours" instead of his/mine might solve your
    problem...

I don't have anything to add about the ego issue, of you making more than your
husband...

But as far as splitting expenses, and how to handle, I started a note on that
very topic back in V2 last December, and people had some good comments, you
might want to take a look at it.

Jody?  :-)

D!

    	RE: .0
    
    	I'm with Gale. I make more than my wife, mostly because
    	she works part-time. However, it all goes into one pot,
    	and there in no hers or mine, just ours.
    
    	And, Anita takes care of all the bills. I get gas/lunch
    	money for the week, and that's it. For instance, when I
    	bought my new bicycle ($800), I paid for it out of my
    	VA disability check. I had to save for close to a year
    	before I could get the bike.
    
    	I've never understood the his/mine or hers/mine money.
    
    	Scott

    Well, in the beginning of our marriage we combined the money to
    make it "ours" and almost got divorced over it so agreed to split
    the money again.  I know it seems odd that we don't combine the
    money (both sets of parents think it's wrong), but for us we had
    both been independent for a while before marrying and used to spending
    money as we pleased.  It was very hard for me to accept my husband
    spending money on things I considered "frivolous" and hard for him
    to accept my spending sprees.  We both came into the marriage with
    our own bills, savings, etc. and agreed to carry those independently.
    For joint purchases we split the tab.  For us it has been much more
    peaceful to keep money seperate.  I don't think I would feel good
    about combining finances now, either.  I have made an effort to
    carry the larger load when it comes to groceries, and things for
    our son, since I do make more(but I also have more bills, too).
    
    Am going out with friends from work tonight to celebrate the promotion
    while he goes to softball with his friends, maybe I'll get the strokes
    there and be okay without them from my husband.
    
    Thanks for the input!
    
    Pam

>    I have made an effort to
>    carry the larger load when it comes to groceries, and things for
>    our son, since I do make more(but I also have more bills, too).

This rang bells for me (I couldn't stand to merge money with my honey either).
How about sitting down with an explicit and equitable proposal, and showing
your honey, and iterating on it?
	Mez

My gut feel is that there is no need to apportion the financial obligations in
proportion to amount earned *so long* as the common expenses aren't unreasonable
relative to the lesser income. As soon as you start taking *advantage* of the
greater income to raise the common standard of living, it becomes more 
reasonable (important) to deal with the difference, since the greater income
can tend to "drag" the lesser income into debt.

Taking advantage of a greater income for non-common expenses seems perfectly
reasonable. We don't pool our finances, my wife makes more, and has a more
expensive car than I do. It's her money, her prerogative. 

    My gut tells me that all this talk about splitting or combining the
    money pots is just a smoke screen for the real issue -- your husband's
    response (or lack of one) toward your promotion and earning power.
    
    This is based on a similar (and bad) experience in my past.  We
    eventually split over it.  His ego just couldn't handle it.  I'm not
    saying your situation has to end the same way, but all the money
    discussions won't address this basic problem, either.
    
    My suggestion is to get some joint counseling to see if you two can't
    learn what lies behind his negative feelings towards your good fortune
    and try to reach mutually agreeable resolution of _that_ issue.  Then 
    the money situation will probably solve itself.
    
    I mean, wouldn't you feel happy for him if he were the one to come home
    with a two-step promotion???
    
    Karen                       

    I don't like the idea of putting all the money in one pot at all. I
    enjoy having my own money for my expenses. Maybe I'm paranoid, but
    somehow putting all the money in one pot makes me feel insecure.
    
    I have never thought about this before, but I'll probably go with
    his/mine/ours scheme where both of us put a certain percentage of our
    income in the our pot.
    
    manisha

    My folks nearly split up over financial problems, same reasons as you,
    so keeping the financial situation split sounds like a good idea.
    
    And, by the way, CONGRATULATIONS.  WAY TO GO.  WOW.  That kind of
    promotion is nothing to snicker at - it's quite an accomplishment!
    
    This seems to be a fairly common phenomenon - men in committed
    relationships with women are all encouragement and understanding about
    career and so forth, until the woman surpasses him in some way.  Then
    things tend to get uncomfortable sometimes.  It is generally an
    ego-thing.  Perhaps you could explain how much you want his support and
    his congratulations - you'd certainly support and congratulate him if
    he made the same leap, yes?  Maybe he will feel more comfortable about
    it over time...
    
    And if it gets really uncomfortable, and you really feel you need to
    somehow level off the inequity - you could set up a fund of some sort -
    for emergency money or retirement or college for kids or whatever - and
    just siphon off the extra money if he feels he really needs things to
    be "equal".....
    
    -Jody
    

    
    See also:
    
    Womannotes-V2
    884 - handling financial inequity with live-in
    
    -Jody
    

    Pam, congratulations!  And I wish you and spouse well as you work
    through this.
    
    For many years I was an at-home mom, and my husband had direct deposit
    to our joint checking account.  When I came to Digital I arranged
    for direct deposit to our joint checking account.  My husband now
    works for a company that doesn't give him that option.  As far as
    I know (since he does most of the family finances) he puts his weekly
    check into that same account.  We both write checks on it as needed/
    wanted as far as it will stretch.  Never *quite* far enough, sigh.
    
    I mentioned in my intro here in WN3 that I just got
    a promotion from WC2 to WC4.  I lost money (rather a lot) in spite
    of the fact that my boss put through an exception to give me more
    money than planned...  I figure that's the way it goes.  In two
    or three (four if the industry stays down) years I expect to recoup
    and from then on, options are far greater than they would have been.
    
    (Why, some may ask, did I lose money in spite of a raise?  No more
    overtime, which accounted for quite a bundle.) 
    
    The loss of money made my husband very unhappy, although he's been
    humorous about it - the other day he called me at 5.09pm and said,
    "You're not getting paid for this so come on home!"  He's still
    a non-exempt worker, so when he grouses too much about our loss,
    I tell him to get in some OT.
    
    Best wishes for continued success in your profession and your marriage!
    
    aq                                                                    
    

    re .7 --yeah, you're right, there are deeper things going on right
    now and this is just one of many issues we're having trouble resolving.
    
    Also, the mention of a savings, education thing reminds me of a
    side to the story I had forgotten about.  I pay ALL insurance, doctors'
    expenses, etc., have set up a universal life policy for my son's
    future, and invest in savings bonds with weekly deductions.  However,
    I did all this before I began making more money.  Maybe the previous
    situation wasn't as equal as I perceived it to be.  I do this because
    I want to and because, yes, it makes me feel more secure.
    
    Some of this whole thing has to do with baggage I carry from my
    past, and my family history, too.  I have always said that I would
    not put myself into a position where I was dependent or "stuck"
    in an uncomfortable situation because of money problems.
    
    And yes, I would be absolutely *thrilled* if my husband came home
    and told me that he had received a promotion.
    
    Thanks, all, for helping me to see some deeper issues that I had
    been trying to ignore/avoid.
    
    pam

    I agree  with  the  comment about this being an ego issue. Men are
    often socialized to have to take care of women, and expect to earn
    more. It could be very difficult for him to "be beaten by a girl".
    (Please don't beat on me for that last phrase, it really is common
    in some groups.)

    I thought  briefly  about  whether this would bother me (my fiance
    makes significantly more than I do), and it doesn't bother me, but
    I'm told that it is often a problem.

    There also  remains  the  problem that if you keep seperate money,
    but do things together, you can bankrupt him by raising your joint
    standard  of  living,  which could leave him with no money for his
    hobbies.  We  considered  several  possibilities  for dealing with
    this:  Each  of us pays the same fraction of our income into joint
    expenses;  each  of  us pays the same number of dollars into house
    expenses; each of us keeps the same number of dollars for personal
    expenses.  I'm  not sure which we'll do, as they all have problems
    (starting with trying to divide joint from personal expenses.) For
    now, we're winging it -- I pay the mortgage and utilities, and she
    pays  most  everything  else. Neither of us feels that we're being
    deprived  of  our  toys, but our cost of living went down when she
    moved  in  (one less rent payment), so the extra money should make
    it easier.

--David

           First, of course, congradulations...
               
         On the subject in general...
    I find the concepts of possession and territory foreign to marraige
    and relationships. It can only be a destructive influence.
    
       Dependence is not vulnerability, and earning power is not virility.
    But men have been taught that it is.
    
       As usual, I feel men and women are both an exaggeration of their
    true roles in this matter. Men should be more comfortable with someone
    paying for things. Women should be less comfortable...
    
       He's not as uncomfortable with what you have attained as he is
    uncomfortable with what he feels he has lost. Help him take off
    his armour...                                          M...
                                                                
                                                                

    I've only read through .8, so I may duplicate.  If so, my apologies.
    
    My sister once got a *major* work promotion and huge raise at a
    time when her husband had been laid off and was looking for work.
    I still marvel, but she told only her sisters and parents, and didn't
    tell him, for almost a year.  (She pays all the bills and handles
    the checking account, so he didn't see the paycheck.)  Her reasoning
    was that telling him would be a 'down' ego-thing for him, which
    would result in making his job search harder and their marriage
    more difficult.  So she celebrated at work and on the phone, but
    not at home.
    
    I did the opposite under *very* similar circumstances, and couldn't
    understand why my ex wasn't overjoyed for/with me at the good fortune
    this represented for us.  I have since come to understand that he
    took it as a kick in the teeth that he wasn't needed/important to
    the family.  His role as breadwinner - the only family role in which
    he felt comfortable - was threatened.  It turned out to be one (of
    many) aspects of the power dynamics of the two of us as a unit.
    As my success whittled away his power sources, he became increasingly
    desperate to find ways of reaffirming his power in the relationship,
    as his route to affirming his value to the relationship.  He simply
    couldn't figure out what I could perceive as a valuable input from
    him that would compensate for not being "the provider".
    
    I don't have magic answers for .0.  I wish I did.  But these may
    be some things to consider as you try to work out the consequences
    of the change on the balance scale between you.
    
    Alison

    I can't add anything to the advice already given, Pam, but I couldn't
    let the opportunity go by:  VERY best congratulations!  Few people ever
    get two-grade bumps, you must be something special. 
    
    Way t'go, gyn!
    
    						=maggie

    
    
    	Hi Pam.  
    
    	Congratulations on work well done, you earned it!!  
    
    	I'm hoping that you have rewarded yourself as this is 
    	the best reward; Always pay yourself first!  Since, I 
    	read your previous notes, I know you have been putting 
    	money aside in the form of savings bonds.  Why not up 
    	your deduction?  
    
    	My father told me the value of paying yourself; first 
    	as soon as I was hired ('86)... pay yourself.  Then 
    	each time you earn a raise, increase the deduction.  It's 
    	a sort of pay for perfomance scale that keeps me hungry 
    	for the next 'tap'. ;>|  The extra money is tied up; but 
    	you also benifet 'besause of the small raise'.  I'd suggest 
    	that the need to ear-mark the new funds for a greater 
    	benefit of your family is important.  As the momentum of 
    	money snowballs into enormous sums then you can take that 
    	'Vacation' you dream about.  My parents went to the Baja 
    	this year to 'pet' the whales.  Save and prosper!
    
    
    							Kelly
    

    Hi Pam,
    
    Ditto what Maggie wrote. Congratulations. Although I got 4 promotions
    within a 6 year span, I had to do it the hard way. One at a time. My
    husband has not been a pillar of support. 
    
    The extra money I make (50% more than him) is going into a savings
    account to pay for the house we will buy in Aug or Sept of this year.
    The money is in my name alone because I save well. He spends quickly.
    He figures plastic debt is just plastic. I figure it's just debt! I'd
    love to share equally but there was a time when he made twice what I
    made and blew every cent over expenses. My Gramma always said,"It's not
    what you make but rather what you save that counts".
    
    KAte

    I'm not trying to assign blame or shoot flames at anyone here.  I'm
    not trying to say that any of this is *right* or *wrong*.  Just to
    provide a few facts and experiences that hopefully will enable you
    to understand and be able to deal with the problem.

    How do you handle it?  *Very* *carefully*.  Whether you understand
    it or not, there is over a million years of society and instinct at
    work here.  Men are trained from day one that probably the *major*
    thing that he has going for him to *attract* and *keep* a mate is 
    his ability to *provide* and *protect* (read "security" a.k.a
    financial security).  Still, more marriages fall apart over financial
    problems than *any* other.  Ask a group of women what they find 
    attractive in a man, and I'll guarantee you that *generous* will
    appear on at least half of the lists.  How "secure" in your 
    relationship would you *feel* if you were in an accident and were 
    disfigured, or had cancer and had to have a part of you body removed?  
    My wife has told me that she *knows* that I would leave her if she
    ever had breast cancer and had to to have a breast removed (Honestly
    I hope I never have to find out).  Why do *at least some* women worry 
    so much about loosing their beauty as they grow older?  Strangely, 
    the more he cares about you and your relationship, the more this may 
    bother him. *His* security lies in his ability to *provide* security
    and therefore remain attractive to you.  It's not a *logical* thing.  
    It's a *very* deeply ingrained *emotional* thing.  *Any* of us *can* 
    do some strange and illogical, even sometimes violent things when our 
    security is threatened.  (Perhaps this part belongs in the *violence* 
    note, but it's a complicated world out there).
        
    Men have "feelings" too.  In spite of a lot of lip service to the
    contrary, the only "feelings" they are allowed to show is anger,
    unless they are "drunk", then a certain amount of emotional display
    will be tolerated.  Even happiness will only be tolerated to a point.
    After that point, they are accused of not being serious about the
    situation.  During the time in my life that I call the "dark ages", I 
    found that the one thing that would turn a woman off faster than 
    picking my nose in public would be to reveal that I had something 
    *bothering* me.  Read *lack of control*, *lack of **power** to affect 
    the world around you*, *lack of the ability to **provide** security*.
    Yes, I did find at least one exception, and I married her, but that's
    another story for another time.
        
    [Let he who would change the world first change himself-Socrates],
    void fred(){}
    

    
    In part, I agree with .20 but I think there are exceptions and grades
    to the rule.  My husband is 24 and I am 22.  When we met 2 years ago, I
    was making 50% more than he was.  Then I got a 12% raise!  He was
    thrilled for me.  I was very concerned that he would feel even more
    threatened, but he didn't.  The reason for this could be our ages or
    our personalities.  I was always labeled and 'overachiever' and he an
    'underachiever'.  About 1 year ago I seriously considered becoming a
    contractor and he backed up that idea.  He said he'd make the stable
    money and I'd make the big money and that was fine.  (I didn't do it
    because both he and I agreed that we couldn't live on his salary
    alone.)  He has even joked at times that he'd stay home and raise the
    kids while I could work!  So, I think that it is entirely possible for
    a man to feel secure enough in other things that a large salary
    discrepancy doesn't disturb him. 
    
    I like the idea of splitting finances.  That's what Jon & I do and it's
    worked out well.  My other best friend and her husband use the 'our'
    money idea and shopping with her is awful!  She can't even buy a pair
    of socks without worrying that he'll be mad!  Jon & I set savings goals
    for big purchases and split the cost.  We pay all of our bills that way
    too.  Eventually, we'll probably make a 'household expenses' account,
    which we'll equally contribute to and pay the bills out of.  Actually,
    our disposable incomes are similar because I have alot of debt but
    after I pay off my debt, I'll put the extra money into the house fund.
    
    
    Good Luck & CONGRATULATIONS !
    Rachael
    
    

    Every marriage is different...and what it works with one doesn't
    necesarilly work with another.  I believe in sharing everything in life
    (thats the way I see marriage) good and bad shared by both and that
    includes finances too but if there is a problem about...let the best
    "saver" or "financier" manage the bills.  We both work, we both spend,
    and we both have authonomy to buy what we want.  We also have lots of
    respect for each other and we wouldn't question one another, my motto
    is "If he does it, must have a reason for it" when I spend on something
    "I must have a reason for it too".  Financial problems will not be a
    problem with us... not after 27 years of sharing everythinhg and
    putting couple kids thru college and helping them get their finances
    established, money is not that important.

    First - congratulations on the promotion(s)!
    
    Second - here's another angle on handling money in a marriage:
    We started with one checking account, but neither of us could stand the
    way the other balanced the checkbook, so we have two joint accounts and
    we pay bills separately.  However, we decide who pays which bills based
    on how much we each earn.  I earn more than my husband so I end up
    paying more bills out of my salary.  When either of us has a change in
    salary, we see if we need to adjust our bill paying scheme.  Same thing
    happens when a loan is paid off.  Sometimes we just funnel the new
    extra money into savings, but we both decide what to do with the money.
    We also both decide on major purchases, and sometimes even on small
    ones.
    
    My husband doesn't fit the breadwinner mold - he can't wait till I make
    enough to support us both on my salary, so he can quit his job and stay
    home with the animals all day!
    
    						Jan

     I can only speak for myself, so here goes....
    My wife and I have been married for 2 years (dating for over 4 yrs) I
    never really thought about who makes more money. To me money was never
    an important issue. My main concerned was always "Am I happy" the
    answer always yes.. My wife has just got a promotion, she now makes
    even more then me. When she came home with the news (she called me
    first) I had a bottle of champagne waiting, a card, and greeted her at
    the door with just my "sexy" shorts on...."WE" then went out to dinner
    the next two nights. When I picked her up at work (she works for DEC
    12yrs) Her boss asked my if I was proud,my responce to him was "I'm
    glad to see you realized what I always knew, that she is the best
    person you have and it's about time she got promoted"
     I belive with some of the other noters about the money issue.
    We have direct deposit and do not seperate income at all. The money and
    the marrage is "ONE". I think above all you need to trust in each other
    to make it work.  I do not feel any less a man because she makes more
    money then me. I accept things for the way they are now. I married for
    love not money. I would not trade for all the money in the world,to
    me that's all life is about.
    
      Bob

      

         The following reply is from a member of the file that wishes
         to remain anonymous.

         Bonnie J
         =wn= comod
*************************************************************************

	Everyone is discussing what happens when the woman makes
	more than the man. I'd like to talk about the opposite. My
	husband makes three to five times what I make in a week. He
	is self employed and works very hard. I am a 3 yr DECcie, 
	looking for a new job (isn't everybody??) and not having any
	luck. I don't feel that I contribute enough to the household.
	I do most/all of the cooking, cleaning, etc, which doesn't
	bother me, I just don't think it's a big deal. Some people 
	firmly believe the man should do half of the housework, I don't
	want to discuss that in this note, I am doing what I feel 
	comfortable with.

	The problem - as 8 mo newlyweds, we still have conflicts from
	time to time. I expect that. However, when the argument gets
	really bad, I always end up hearing the same `speech', which is
	`I make all the money, I buy you everything, I bust my a$$ for 
	you and you're ungrateful'. This makes me feel terrible. I don't
	feel I can argue against it, I do NOT make much money. BUT, when
	we're not fighting, it's `I love you and I want you to have every-	
	thing I can give you. I do it all for you'. Then when we fight I
	am ungrateful....???? How do I live with that? I never asked him
	to buy me anything, but he did because he wanted to (until he's
	mad at me). 

	Well, we've had this same `fight' several times now, but this 
	weekend was the worst. Now, I'm sure you're all saying that we 
	have more than money as a problem. I'm aware of that. I need a 
	little moral support, but I also need to know how to combat his 
	money argument. Thanks to all.

    It sounds like you need a LOT of moral support, but OK...
    
    He's coming at you from two directions.  One is the money.  Great; it's
    his money; if he doesn't think it's worth sharing, he doesn't have to. 
    If he does think it's worth sharing, he has no right to complain.
    
    The other direction is the "busting his a$$" part.  By throwing this
    in, he gets a good dollop of guilt into the argument.  But you're
    busting your a$$ too, right?  The assumption he's making is that
    proportion-of-money-earned = proportion-of-work, and that's obviously
    not true in the real world. 
    
    My guess is that money is important to him and he's willing to do
    something he occasionally hates to get more of it.  That's his choice,
    and (assuming you didn't twist his arm) you don't have to feel guilty
    for it.
    
    If you could live with less money, suggest the division-by-salary rule
    - it seems to work for some of the noters here.  Tell him NOT to "buy
    you everything" and stick to that.  At least the petty annoyances
    involved might wake him up a little.  (I might bring up the "all the
    housework" business here, but since you're comfortable with it... (: >,)
    
    BTW, in my last relationship, we exchanged "chief breadwinner" roles at
    least three times.  It never had to do with one of us getting lazy; it
    had to do with accident, or which field was paying most, or whatever. 
    I'd be unemployed, then she'd be unemployed...  I've also always done
    "common pot", but that's possibly due to not being very interested in
    tracking money. 
    
    Ray

I'll throw out my standard suggestion (it works for us!): draw up an agreement.
It doesn't need to be reductionist or informal; it simply needs to articulate
your shared understanding of who contributes what. With Joe and I it's the
chores that get us. So, when we both start emitting "I do all the work around
here" vibes at each other, it's time to take out the chore list and revise it
("I forgot about all the yard work you do!"...). Trade-offs are what's fair.
Joe hates laundry; I don't mind it. We may trade it off for something big
(going by Joe's sense of fair), something small (going by mine), or something
in between. You might want to add in work time, commute time, support energy,
budgeting, salary, whatever. 
	Mez

First, warm wishes for your new marriage.

Second, "However, when the argument gets really bad, I always end up hearing 
         the same `speech', which is `I make all the money, I buy you 
         everything, ..."

How does the argument start?  It sounds as if you may begin to argue about 
something unrelated to the money issue and it always winds up there.  If this
is the case, the subject is being changed because it is something that will
win the argument.  If this is the case, you can say "[John], I am not 
ungrateful.  I appreciate all the work you do for *us*.  That's not the
issue I'm talking about though.  What do you think about X?"

You can help to keep arguments from flaring into verbal brawls by keeping
your voice down (especially after his first flare up or two).

If the argument *is* about money (the number one cause of arguments in
marriage - especially newlyweds who are learning to live with each other),
I think you need to talk about whose money it is.  If pooling the resources
isn't your bag, then you need to sit down and talk about your expectations
with each other about how the money is to be handled.

Unmet expectations (and sometimes unreal expectations) can be an awful drain
on a relationship.  You can say, "[John], I thought this about that.  What 
did you think?"  Ask a question.  By doing so, you find out what he 
expects, then the two of you can hopefully work out a compromise, or agree
to do it one way or another.

Good luck.  Don't let anything take precedence over your relationship.

Mark 

    You are also probably undervaluing the worth of what you do at home.
    Try to work out what the cost would be to do 'outside' all of the
    household tasks which you do inside.  Don't stint yourself.  What
    is the average price, in a restaurant, at retail, of the meals you
    prepare?  (Some days what I fix should come from McDonald's, other
    times it could be Friendly's, once in a while it's a gourmet level
    meal.)  How much does it cost to have shirts cleaned at a laundry?
    What is the cost of a financial adviser to pay bills?  Hopefully
    you get the idea.
    
    This means that the next time you get the "I make all the money"
    speech, you have ammunition to point out what you contribute.
    
    Alison

    I think you're right in believing you have more than a money
    problem. For real interpersonal problems, the best route IMO
    is to see a shrink. Notes files are okay, but most
    interspersonal problems (IMO) are dynamic, so that if you
    find an equitable solution for the money issue, the problem
    will arise again elsewhere. It seems to me that you are
    tolerating unacceptable behavior on the part of your spouse.
    
    Eileen

    
    What you may be seeing is what I call "sticker shock" of getting
    married.  Many men go through this.  The old addage "two can
    live as cheap as one" is a crock.  The cost of supporting a
    marriage can really put a crimp in the fun and games.  This
    can lead to resentment on his part.  Yes, maybe he should have
    considered this before getting married, but who says that 
    anyone who gets married is in full control of their faculties
    at the time.
    
    He probably DOES work very hard, and is probably tired and
    not in the best of moods at the end of the day.  His expectations
    of your care and attention at the end of that day may be greater
    than you can/are-able-to give.  It may not be the "feminist" way,
    but a *little* "mothering" durin the bad times, and a little letting
    him know that you DO appreciate his contributions to the marriage
    may help him over the hump untile he adjusts to the situation.
    
    fred();

    
    I also agree that there may be some unspoken expectations that
    is not being met. Seeing a therapist together will definitely help.
    
    One big problem is that house work is not highly valued.
    eg. I would be spending 3 hrs doing house work and my husband 
    would be building a shelf in the same 3 hrs. It would be so 
    obvious that he had done something (built a shelf), but nobody would
    even notice that the clothes are washed and the counter is clean.
    You work hard but it is not highly visible. One thing that helps
    is to write down how much time you spend each week doing housework.
    
    Another problem is that a lot of men still expects their wives
    to treat them like the "breadwinners". I mean, my mom treated my dad
    like king, since he was out there making $ for the family. My dad
    didn't have to lift a finger at home. My mother never worked, so she
    could afford the time to pamper my father. My mother was happy that
    she was well taken care of (moneywise). Times have changed, but
    not completely. It will take people a few generations to "adjust"
    to the changes.
    
    Your problem is pretty common. It happens at my house, too.
    Fortortunately, I am quite a bit younger than my husband.
    I know one of these days, I'll make as much if not
    more than my husband and he'll have to stick his "speech" somewhere.
    But, in the mean time, I try not to let an argument float into
    the area of who is contributing more. Marriage is not a "fair" deal.
    And sometimes, questioning one's contribution => questioning one's
    loyalty and it gets touchy. It takes certain skills to have productive
    fights. 
    
    Eva.

    I've been doing some more thinking on this.  Another possibility
    may be that he is unsure about just where he stands in the marriage.
    Ie. What your expectations of *him* are.  If he is bringing this
    up over and over, it is obviously something that is bothering him
    a great deal.  The reason that every fight comes around to this 
    subject may be that *this* is really the source of his discomfort
    in the first place.  Starting arguments about *x* may just be an
    excuse to bring this subject up again.  He may not understand that
    it is ok with you for you to do the housework and may be waiting
    for the other shoe to fall and be trying to "stake out" his 
    position on a problem that is not a problem in the first place.
    
    Set down with him (hopefully with a third party, marriage counselor,
    minister, etc ) and lay down some ground rules for finances, house-
    work, etc and clear the air.  Don't wait until this becomes a 
    BIG problem before doing something about it.
    
    fred();

    re: .25 (Anonymous)
    
    First, I'm not sure quite how to offer moral support other than
    to send a virtual hug your way (consider it done).  Beyond that,
    I'd hazard a guess that if the situations are as you've portrayed
    them, there is indeed more than a money problem at work.  I have
    a feeling that the real issues are more control and power than
    money.  
    
    �. . .I always end up hearing the same `speech', which is `I make 
    � all the money, I buy you everything, I bust my a$$ for you and 
    � you're ungrateful'. 
    
    Am I correct in guessing that the follow up remark goes something
    like, ". . .because if you were grateful, you'd agree with me
    (or do something I want or do something the way I want)"?  You 
    see, if it isn't a question of money (i.e. if you're not arguing
    about how to stretch your two combined incomes to meet nearly
    insurmountable expenses), then the function of remarks like
    he's making is to manipulate your responses in some way.  And
    it appears he's achieving some degree of success.
    
    � This makes me feel terrible. I don't feel I can argue against it, 
    
    To some degree you can't.  And sub-consciously or otherwise, I 
    suspect he may be aware of that.  But here's something you might 
    look at.  "I make all the money, buy you everything, and bust my 
    ass for you" is a valid enough feeling for him to have (not 
    necessarily what I'd consider to be healthy, but they *are* his 
    feelings and are thus valid for him).  However, to link the accu-
    sation, "You're ungrateful" to all of that is off base and manip-
    ulative.
    
    What's his basis for this apparently omniscient knowledge of how 
    you feel?  My guess is that when he says this, he's trying to
    hit your guilt button (and apparently doing a good job).  But
    what is it that you're supposed to feel guilty about?  That
    he's working as much as *he chooses* to?  That *he's* decided 
    that all of his work efforts are for your benefit?  Did *you* 
    ever ask/demand him to work so hard just to give you all kind 
    of material things?  Your reply indicates that you didn't.
    
    I can think of at least one way you might be able to clarify the 
    issues here and I strongly agree with those who've suggested that 
    a neutral third party might help greatly in keeping the anger at 
    a manageable level.  You might try asking him why he feels you're 
    ungrateful.  What would demonstrate to him your gratitude?  My
    guess is that the overall dynamic at work here will be something
    like, "Because I've chosen to work very hard and because I've
    chosen to bestow the fruits of my labors upon you, you should
    think and/or act as I wish."  An interesting philosophy, but
    not one that leaves much room for your choices.
    
    In that same exchange, I think it may be worth while for you to let 
    him know exactly how you feel about this argument tactic that he's 
    using (manipulated, confused, angry, guilty, whatever).  Because
    it *is* a tatic; it's meant to get you to respond in some way that
    he desires, but until you all can get past the emotional charge
    that's generated by such a tactic, I don't think you'll be able
    to get closer to what the real desires and expectations are.
                           
    Good luck and let us know how it goes.
    
    Steve

    
    
    Dear Anonymous,
    
    I like the suggestions I've seen so far about looking into counselling
    and about your thinking about the value of your contributions to the
    household.  I'd also like to suggest (on the heels of what Steve said
    in .25 about telling your husband how you feel) that you choose a time
    when you're not arguing and tell your husband how it makes you feel
    when he accuses you of being ungrateful.  This might turn out to be
    a productive discussion about how you can learn to "fight" better.
    
    Good luck,
    
    Justine

    I gotta put a plug in for the "joint" effort.   My wife and I both work
    at DEC, I make a tad more than she does.  *Our* money goes in *our*
    bank, with which I pay *our* bills.  Works for us, but I can see how it
    wouldn't work for everyone ...
    
    Jerry

        The following reply is from the author of note .25
    
        Bonnie J
        =wn= comod

*****************************************************************

	First, let me than you all warmly for your thoughtful
	remarks. Some of you have said things that have been
	floating around in my head but I couldn't figure out how
	to articulate them. I'd like to respond to some of your 
	comments...



	>>.26    STAR::RDAVIS 
    
	>>Great; it's his money; if he doesn't [want to] share...[fine]  
   	>> ...money is important to him and he's willing to do something he 
	>>occasionally hates to get more of it.  That's his choice,
 

	>>.28    TOKNOW::METCALFE 

	>>I think you need to talk about whose money it is...sit down 
	>>and talk about your expectations with each other about how 
	>>the money is to be handled.
   
 
	BINGO! I have decided that I will chart out our living expenses,
	and suggest that, instead of giving me every dime he makes to go
	into our joint account, he give me (us) only the amount needed to
	fulfill the budget, after that, he can put what's left into an
	account of his own. If he wants to take money out to buy himself
	something, fine; if he wants to pay off/ahead any of our bills, that
	is HIS choice. 

	>> .28
	>>Unmet expectations (and sometimes unreal expectations) can be 
	>>an awful drain on a relationship. 

	>>.33  CSC32::HADDOCK 

      >>I've been doing some more thinking on this.  Another possibility 
      >>may be that he is unsure about just where he stands in the marriage.
      >>Ie. What your expectations of *him* are.  If he is bringing this
      >>up over and over, it is obviously something that is bothering him 
      >>...*this* is really the source of his discomfort in the first place. 


	I plan to sit down with him and say something like `we've been
	married for 8 months now, and we've been having some conflicts 
	lately. Let's talk about what we expected before we got married
	as opposed to what actually happened, and how we think things 
	might need to be changed (either actully or just by viewpoint).'

	He's TERRIFIED of being WRONG about anything. I wasn't sure about 
	that at first, but I am now. Sometimes when he blames me for 
	something, I know he *doesn't mean it* BECAUSE it's easier for
	his ego to blame me than to accept it himself. This is something 
	that I want to discuss with him, also. I think he's also afraid that
	because he does something wrong, I will not be happy to be married
	to him any longer. 

	
	>>.31  CSC32::HADDOCK 
    
	>>    What you may be seeing is what I call "sticker shock" of getting	
	>>    married.  Many men go through this.  

    	Yes, I think this is part of it. He has remarked that he doesn't
	have as much money to fool around with as he used to. I do NOT
	feel guilty about that _because_ - he CHOSE to buy certain things 
	for me because he WANTED to. If that means he now has to pay the
	bills for it, then that's the way it is. I have told him NOT to 
	buy me anything more, or to wait until we/I really need the item
	before buying it, but he goes and buys it anyways. That is not my
	fault, but I do think it's should be another (non-hostile) point
	of discussion between us...

   	>>  He probably DOES work very hard, and is probably tired and
  	>>  not in the best of moods at the end of the day.  His expectations
  	>>  of your care and attention at the end of that day may be greater
  	>>  than you can/are-able-to give.  

  >> .32
  >>  Another problem is that a lot of men still expects their wives
  >>  to treat them like the "breadwinners". I mean, my mom treated my dad
  >>  like king, since he was out there making $ for the family. My dad
  >>  didn't have to lift a finger at home. My mother never worked, so she
  >>  could afford the time to pamper my father.	


	I think he feels that he IS the main breadwinner, and I 
	should praise him for his work[=money] at the end of the
	day, because that is the relationship his parents had, she
	didn't work and relied on him to provide for her. MY parents
	were divorced, it was each for his own, so we have different
	ingrained viewpoints on this. So, perhaps I need to be more
	supportive of his work, but I think he needs to realize that
	he's not the only one making money. 


	>>.32   STAR::MACKAY 
    
	>>    One big problem is that house work is not highly valued.
        
	I know I said I don't mind doing it all, and that's true - it's
	a very small house, it doesn't take long, and I would rather do
	it myself than have to push him to do it and then feel that it's
	not clean enough. But, it would be nice if he could just say, `oh,
	I noticed you cleaned the house'. He does say sometimes, `will you
	sit down? you don't have to do that, *I* don't care if the bathroom
	isn't spotless'. Well, I do. I think he says that because *maybe*
	he feels guilty about not helping me, so if he says I don't have to 
	do it, but I do, it becomes my choice to clean and therefore not for
	him to worry/feel guilty about. I want him to know that that's not
	the issue with me that he thinks it is...

     >>.34   FRSBEE::MALLETT 
    
   >> "Because I've chosen to work very hard and because I've
   >> chosen to bestow the fruits of my labors upon you, you should
   >> think and/or act as I wish."  An interesting philosophy, but
   >> not one that leaves much room for your choices.
                           

	As I said before about the money, I will express to him 
	that my only concern is meeting our budget. Any work he
	chooses to do over that is exactly that - his choice. And if
	he feels I need/want/expect him to bust his ass, then I 
	will make sure he realizes that it's not true, maybe that will
	take some pressure off of him. 


	I really want to work all of this out with him. We both have
	misconceptions that need to be discussed. I'm really glad you all
	have given me the chance to articulate and organize my thoughts. 
	If you see anything in my rationale that you want to point out,
	I'm still very open to your suggestions. I find it somewhat 
	amusing that I can figure him out so well but that I can't figure
	out why *I* get upset or dis-illusioned sometimes. You've helped 
	me with that, too, but I want to know what *he* thinks...I'll let
	you know what happens, thanks for reading `the whole thing!'.

	Signed,
	Feeling better now, thanks.

    "Anon",
    
    You mentioned that your mother-in-law didn't work outside of the home. 
    How does your father-in-law express affection towards her? Buying her
    things? Taking her out to dinner? Do you think that he trys to convey
    his affection through buying her *things*, rather than expressing his
    feelings (for whatever reason)?
    
    Perhaps this is what your husband observed while he was growing
    up...affection is demonstrated through material things.  Ergo, the
    harder he works and the more money he makes, the more he is showing you
    that he loves you.  When you tell him not to buy things for you, he may
    be at a loss as to how to express his affection.  
    
    As the story goes, "no one tells you what happens after you ride off
    into the sunset together".  
    
    Good luck,
    Judi
    

	Please post as an anon reply to 137 from the 
	author of .25 - thanks...
*************************************************************



	Well, folks, the update ain't all that great...We 
	finally talked about ALL of `it', and we came to a
	wonderful mutual understanding about affection, material
	matters, housework, money, etc...I thought it was
	great...He even suggested that we seek professional
	assistance to help both of us with the `residue' from
	unresolved family/stress issues...

	THEN, we went to a family party yesterday. He began drinking
	on the way over there, ~2 hrs away. He proceeded to get
	very drunk by the end of the day, making somewhat of a
	spectacle of himself. His siblings tried to get him to stop
	drinking, I tried to stay out of it so I wouldn't antagonize him, 
	as he was getting `mean'. I walked out of the room out of
	frustration. He followed, accused me of embarassing him in
	front of his family (he was doing that well enough on his
	own!), grabbed my arm *hard*, gave me part of the `speech' 
	(again!!), and told me that since I couldn't let him do what
	he wants to do, I might as well go and get a divorce lawyer. 
	He drove off after we all tried to take the keys away from him.

	When I got home, he had been there, taken all his clothes,
	and gone. He left a note that said `maybe it's only me, I 
	just don't know'. An attempt at an apology? Acknowledging
	what his family was saying to him as he left, that no one 
	was ganging up on him, he was making the problem himself?

	He's supposed to be away on business the next three days, 
	anyways. I can only wait to see if he calls me and/or if
	he's coming back. Last time he scared me, this time he hurt
	me, next time????? I am sure now that it is a drinking 
	problem. He gets cruel and violent when he drinks, then 
	takes it all out on me....I am going to tell him that unless
	he gets help, this is it. And I'm going to go to EAP, I 
	think....

	I am trying not to cry, this isn't my fault, except in 
	maybe that I didn't see it sooner and try to help him...I
	still love him, I want him to get help...What if he refuses?

	Can I have some more hugs, please??

re: .39

hugshugshugshugshugs

I don't know much about drinking problems; I know that there has been lots of
good advice from strong members of the file in the past. EAP sounds like just
the place for you to start taking care of yourself.

I recently read "The Dance of Anger", and part of it popped into my mind when I
read your reply. The part where, when one starts to change one's behavior to
what they like better, people in intimate relationships send "change back"
signals; reacting even more strongly. You might find it helpful.
	Mez

    
    re.39
    
    Lots of hugs.
    
    Definitely go to EAP and to a therapist for your for own sake.
    EAP can give you recommendations and John Hancock will pay for it.
    (or check your HMO). You have to get some of this out of your system
    and start looking out for yourself. A lot of times, a neutral person
    like a therapist can show you things from different angles and help
    you understand your husband's behavior and your reactions to it.
    And it is not your fault, you cannot be responsible for someone
    else behavior. 
    
    Eva.
      

  (   )
   \0/
    !       Big Electronic Hug !
  _/ \_
    
    Hang tough - we're behind you......
    
    -Jody
    

    re .39:
    
    Yes, hugs, but more importantly a strong suggestion that you treat
    yourself to an Al-Anon meeting.  Call Alcoholics Anonymous for the
    location/time of a meeting in your area.  Look after yourself first;
    let the pros look after your husband.  He may or may not be ready to
    accept help, that's up to him.
    
    good luck,
    Marge

    
    Here is another reply from the author of .39 and .25
    
    Bonnie J
    =wn= comod
    
    
********************************************************************


	REPLY TO 137.(?)44 - HERB

	No, he was not like this when we met. When he infrequently
	drank, he would be a `happy drunk'. After a few months, he
	would be a slightly cranky drunk, basically falling asleep.
	Now, he is a cruel drunk, and unfortunately I'm the nearest
	target....(I know, I know, get out of the way then!). In all
	seriousness, this is NOT the man I first knew. Even his own
	sister said that she had never seen him like that and would
	never have expected it. BUT, he was acting just as his father
	had in the past...

	There's another manifestation that I have not mentioned, I 
	didn't really make the connection until a few days ago. He
	has waking nightmares. He will sit up and talk to me, but not
	recall it in the morning. He is intelligible, but does not
	really make sense. At first it was `teddy bear-ish'; the most
	recent time, it was pretty much rape, I could not wake him up
	and he did not remember it the next day (I believe him). This
	frightens me (and him) - next time he might not want to make
	love, but rather to hurt me in some way. 

	Yeah, maybe some of you think I am or was naive, maybe I was/am
	to some degree, but I honestly don't think I had any indication
	of this before marrying him, except the knowledge of his parents'
	history (which I know does indicate a lot). He always swore he 
	didn't want to end up like his father (cruelly mentally abusive),
	but he did...

    re: .45
    
    Alcoholism is a progressive disease, so it doesn't really matter if he
    was nice before and now he's not.  The fact is that the disease is
    progressing.  I would second the suggestion that you get some help for
    yourself via Al-Anon and EAP here at DEC.
    
    The one thing I can tell you with grat certainty is that if your
    husband does not stop drinking, things will get worse.  Alcoholism
    never gets 'better' until the drunk stops drinking and the family
    members seek treatment for themselves.  Alcoholism is a family disease,
    so it is important that you also get treatment via Al-Anon and even
    some individual therapy if you feel that one-on-one attention would be
    useful for you at this point.
    
    Active alcoholism means one thing...it's a downward trip that can lead
    to all kinds of personal/financial/legal troubles, insanity, death and
    just about anything else tragic that you can think of.
    
    Get help for yourself, first and foremost.
    
    Take care.
    
    Laura
    

    Here is another {{{HHHUUUGGGG}}} for you.  If you want to talk about
    the abuse, send mail.  It *will* get worse.
    
    In support,
    Barb

    *H*U*G*
    
    ...and do get help, it will get worse.
    
    						   =maggie

    Re: anon
    
                   Try A.C.O.A.  It is better suited for the kind of
    support you might need.  And of course *MANY* hugs and well wishes.
    
    
    Dave

    Why is that, Dave?  She herself is not an "adult child"; her husband
    is.  Having no direct experience with ACOA, can you help me understand
    how they might be better than Al-Anon for the spouse of an alcoholic. 
    
    thanks,
    Marge

    A reply again from the anon author
    
    
	NOTE 137, AGIAN....

	maybe the last anon reply I'll have to make, now...

******************************************************************
	
	
	Well, he called last night from his business trip and
	asked if I wanted him to come home. I told him only if
	he accepts how intolerable his behavior had been and we
	talk it all out. He got home, and we sat down and had a 
	long talk. I told him I HATED the man I saw when he drank,
	and that he had no idea how he acted (he didn't, he only 
	remembered pieces of what happened). I also told him that 
	he would never again hold over my head the things he has
	bought for me in the past, how much money I make, or say that
	he wants a divorce, because if he does, drunk or not, I 
	will first sell everything and then give him the divorce. Boy
	did that open his eyes! 

	The best part is, we have agreed to go to a counselor, who
	I think will decide if he needs alcohol treatment. He promised
	me that he would never drink again, because he is afraid of
	how he acts when he does and I agree.  We talked about his 
	frustrations and anger. I told him I thought it was okay to 
	be angry with his father for his upbringing, and to stop holding
	those feelings in. I couldn't begin to tell you how cruel his
	father is to the entire family...

	I think we've made a huge breakthrough in this whole problem. 
	I feel really good that we will be able to resolve all of it
	with the help of a professional. All of you have been wonderful,
	esp those that sent mail. With your help I have been able to 
	see into my husband and then show him what I saw, and it worked.
	I can't thank you all enough! 

    Dear Anonymous, that's wonderful!  Now, go to Al-Anon.
    
    Love, prayers, hugs,
    aq

    My friend is trying to get me to read, "Co-dependant No More". I do not
    know the author. 
    
    I know you love him. Somehow, I think the road would be easier if you
    didn't. Your path would be more clearly defined. Alcoholism is a hard
    one to treat. He has to be willing to do it for himself. All the love
    he has for you can't compensate for the love he may not have for him-
    self. When you love someone and he tells you that he drinks because he
    hurts and you're the one causing him pain, PLEASE DON'T BELIEVE IT! 
    When he intentionally picks a fight so that he can have an excuse to
    pick up a drink, PLEASE DON'T THINK IT'S YOUR FAULT!
    
    I echo everyone else's feelings. But...I am afraid for you as I am for
    any spouse/lover/parent/child of an alcoholic. They drain the spirit,
    test the patience, and push,push,push. I am concerned for your physical
    well being. If your husband has has grabbed your arm in a drunken rage 
    what says he wouldn't strike you? Being beaten by a drunk is very painful.
    Somehow thay don't have the restraint of a sober person. The blackouts,
    from what I've heard, indicate a progressive stage of alcoholism. 
    
    If I were you I would separate from him and see if he sobers up. It's
    important to break through the chains of co-dependancy.
    
    I'm sorry I can't rejoice in your reconcilliation right now although I will
    pray for both of you.
    
     Kate