Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    Just asking - are you sure she wasn't simply supplying good-natured
    sarcasm? Along the lines of "Are you hurt?" "No, I enjoy limping".
    Based solely on the description in .0, I could read it this way.

    In other words, if you're concerned about a single instance, you could
    have mistaken her intent. If this is but one example of several, then
    it's potentially a different issue.

Bill Moyers did a show about lying in its many shades of truth.
Among other things, lies color reality (or soften it).  You wouldn't
tall your friend that their outfit caused you to wretch because you
value your friend's feelings more than your taste in clothing. So
you lie by saying, "it's fine" when you are asked how you like it.

.1 may be correct in that her answer was flippant to hide a possible
insecurity or insult about even being asked.  (Not that anyone *should*
be insulted, but who knows?  Insecurities are a funny thing.)

    
    Actually, according to the laws of etiquette, as described by my mother
    through childhood, there are several questions that you never ask
    people.  
    	their age
    	if their hair is dyed
    	if their hair is permed
    	if they've had plastic surgury, (face lift, boob lift ...)
    
    The reasoning behind this is that it implies that their hair, body ...
    wasn't good enough the way it was so they had to change it.  And even
    though that's the truth, some truths are best left hidden.  (Can you
    imagin asking, " You look like you've lost weight.  Have you had
    liposuction done?"  Same basic idea. 
    
    Rachael
    

    re .1:  She's been caught in a number of lies to people she considers
    good friends.  I'd hate to see how she treats her enemies... I don't
    think it was a sarcastic remark.
    
    re .3:  Guess I have very poor manners.  I don't think it's poor
    etiquette to ask someone if their hair (male or female) is permed.
    
     re.2:  Sorry, but if the person was a real friend and asked me how a
    particular outfit looked on him/her, I wouldn't lie to protect his/her
    ego.  If it was an acquaintance, then I most likely wouldn't be asked
    whether an outfit looked okay on him/her in the first place.

I have a cousin that _seems_ to be a consistant liar. She's still a wonderful
human being, but she does have problems. It's very difficult for me to hold
this all together in the model of a single person.
	Mez

    Some people never learn to value truth.  If they can manipulate
    a situation to their advantage, they will lie and feel absolutely
    no remorse.  I suspect the source is in childhood.  If parents do
    not instill values into their children at an early age, they never
    seem to adopt them.  I try hard to remember that lieing is a learned
    behaviour and does not make a person "bad", but I'm not real
    sucessful at this.
    
    Me?  I couldn't lie if I had to. It's like there's some safety
    interlock(switch) in my head that shuts my mouth off if I even try.
    And goddess knows there have been times when lieing would have been
    easier! :>)
    
    -maureen
    

    see also
    
    human_relations
    138 - he lies!  honest!
    
    -Jody
    

a common pattern amongst children and adult children of dysfuctional families
is a bent toward telling lies about inconsequential things [this is _not_
a universal trait, but a very common one] -- it's a form of control.

not controlling other people, but of control over themselves.  see?...I can 
alter reality, I'm not so helpless after all.

once I lied about _when_ I cut my hair, saying that I'd cut it in May when
actually I hadn't cut it until October. [obviously, the person I was speaking to
hadn't seen me in the interim...] why?  not because I wanted to _deceive_ anyone
but because I wished I'd done it before the hot weather.  it was pretty pathetic
but I can't feel remorse or guilt.  it was rather harmless, except to me.

yet, for the most part, these same people would _die_ before telling a lie about
anything that could possibly have an impact another person.

so, while the normal tendency is to expect that a person who would lie about
somenthing as trivial as perming her hair would certainly not be trustworthy,
it may not be the case at all.

  Ann

    Not only does she lie about inconsequential things, but she lies to certain
    individuals that affect people she works with (she is lead singer in a
    band (and a good one too!) and she lied to the band's agent about
    something - the agent then asked one of the guitar players about it and
    he had no clue what the agent was talking about - it led to a rather
    tense span of time between the agent and the band).   Oh well... I
    really want to like this lady, but she's making it rather difficult.

    Sometimes lying is a control trip.  Sometimes lying is pathological and
    they can't help it.  I can think of very few situations where lying is
    "a good thing", but I believe they exist - mostly in the form of "white
    lies" or "mercy lies".
    
    -Jody
    

    
    
    Or maybe she simply feels that the question was too personal
    and the (truthful) answer is no one's business.  Many people
    who artificially color their hair will deny that their hair
    is chemically altered.  Perhaps this is a similar scenerio.
    

    I wouldn't try to confront, educate or change her.  I'd let the
    relationship get as far as you're comfortable having one with a
    known liar.  Why try to create anything else?  There are plenty of
    other people around with whom to be friends.  It isn't required that
    we befriend everyone such that we have to form them to our requirements
    for friendship!  I was "distant pals" with a liar too.  You should hear
    the stuff she fed me!  It was pretty amusing.  I just yessed her to 
    death, never got close and pitied her.  I think she's now some
    millionaire in Las Vegas.  (!)
    
    For the record, Kristy, I think I know who you mean and she's got a
    real problem.  Just don't get so close her lies affect you and enjoy
    what you can of her.  She *is* an awsome singer!  Maybe someday she'll
    grow up.                      

The following is from a member of our community who wishes to remain anonymous.
	Mez

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

re: 136.*

Hello Kristy and others,

Your friend has a problem.  If she's lied to you about inconsequential
things, then she probably has lied to others including herself about things.
As a compulsive liar, I can tell you what a scary life she must be leading.
Thankfully, a year ago someone confronted me with some of the things I had
said/done and let me know that she really cared about me and that she realized
that I must be really unhappy to be living the way I was.  It was very 
humbling for me, but not humiliating.  The friendship she offered was such
that I was able to trust her enough to get through it.  

You may not have the kind of friendship (you may not desire to help this 
person...it takes alot!) it takes to help this person.  Professional therapy
may also not help this person, when I went to a counselor, I lied to him 
because I didn't want him to see what I was "really like".

I still struggle with lying.  I do it much less, but the temptation... the
impulse is still there, even a year later.  I understand it better now, it
stems from self image problems that have been growing for some 25 years and
I still haven't worked through them all yet.  I'm told it might take me years
to re-build the "moral fiber" of my life, or it might take a few weeks, it all
depends on 2 things:  wanting to do it and believing I CAN do it!  Doing it 
means going through some still painful experiences.  I'm not sure I'm there yet,
but I keep pushing, bit by bit.  

Ignoring this person's problem will accomplish several things:  you will 
continue to struggle (in increasing measure) with your friendship due to lack
of respect and trust; you will send a message to the liar indicating that
you (and her social circle, it sounds like) accept her lying (which may, oddly
enough, cause her to feel WORSE about herself), and it will not STOP the lying.

I would encourage you to be righteous in your dealings with your friend, no 
matter what you decide.  If she feels hurt, she may turn and lie about you to
others to protect herself.  If you are honest and as kind as possible, she will
still struggle with your relationship, but she will not have anything truthful
on which to embroider lies.

Good Luck!

-< Lying...why???? >-

>Why is it that some people feel they have to lie about even the
>smallest of things?  I can see part of it as being insecure and/or

    For  whatever  it's  worth,  I  heard  a story about a traveller  in
    Ireland  (abbreviated greatly) asking  for  directions.    After  an
    Irishman gave directions, and the traveller got  lost, the traveller
    then met an Englishman  who gave the correct directions.  On his way
    home again he met the  first  man, and complained loudly to the man.
    The Irishman told the traveller "Of course the Englishman would tell
    you the truth.  He has no respect for you !".

    I'm not sure what this  has  to do with it, but maybe something.  It
    somehow seemed appropo to this topic.    Having  spent  considerable
    time  in the National Guard (4 years),  this  story  seems  to  make
    sense.

>other people too.  It upsets me that someone would lie about something 
>very trivial.  A young gal I know (21 and just out of college) is the
    
    Think in these terms.   How much would your life have been enriched,
    or ours, had you not posted  this  note to us ?  If the girl had not
    lied  to you, she could not have  "controlled"  you  by  this  small
    modicum.
    
    Kristy, you've been had by a manipulator (as  have many other before
    you).  When it comes to 'hardened liars', either  we accept them for
    what  they are (ignoring the little lies);  or we  can  ignore  them
    altogether !!
    
>Guess I just needed to blow off a bit of steam.  Thanks for listening.
    
    Thanks, we needed that too, since we all like you so much ..
    (or at least a few of us) ;^)
    
>-- Kristy

    -BobE