Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    I think that the Pope needs to wake up and get with it as does the
    Catholic Church, in general.  They teach against abortion but yet
    also teach against birth control.  It seems to me that they are
    anti-women, not only in these teachings but many others as well.
    
    Sue
    

    I think the masses of the world need to wake up.  I'm amazed that
    in this day and age anyone would even bother to listen to what an
    elderly celebate man has to say about birth control.  I know I
    wouldn't.  Not meaning to offend anyone's religion.
    
    Lorna
    

    I agree, Lorna.  Especially when he's saying it to the citizens of
    a very poor country who continue to reproduce unchecked.
    
    It strikes me as someone pretty far out of touch with reality but then
    he is a celibate old man who isn't spending his days trying to survive.
    
    I think he should merely be humored while condoms are made available to
    anyone who wants them.

I have my theological and practical difference with the Catholic church, but 
it isn't my place as a Protestant to try to change it.  I *hope* that Catholics 
are the ones here to respond to their leader rather than non-Catholics.

As wierd or archaic as it may sound, it is based on sincere beliefs (which
my Catholic-turned-protestant father-in-law still holds to some degree).

In other words, if you are Catholic, change what you can if you *want* to.
I think it is insensitive to judge this man.  It may be that he sits in
his chairs and askes himself, "why don't they get with it?"

Just my opinion...

Mark Metcalfe

    Certainly, we all ultimately have control over how we choose to act or
    what rules with which we govern our conscience, but I have to agree with
    the noter who said the Catholic church is predominantly "anti-women". 
    We are regarded as the instigators and perpetuator (sp?) of sin
    thoughout the ages. If we don't commit sins, we "cause" men to
    sin...... it's a lose/lose situation.
    
    It is indeed unfortunate that more religions (not JUST the Catholics) do 
    not mature with the times.  A still pond is call Stagnant.
    
    Truly concerned 
        

    
    
    	I am an agnostic who had a good Christian upbringing.  This
    means that I understand the Popes message without believing in
    it.  The basic church position seems to be that this life is
    merely preparation for the next life and that since the next life
    will be forever in heaven it does not matter how bad this life is,
    hence the lack of worry about population explosion.  I must admit
    that if I did believe it would be a pretty good tradeoff.  IE a
    few years of horrible suffering in exchange for eternal, blissful
    life. 
    
    	No offense intended, however it is good to have and appreciation
    for the other side of things.  And after all "What if he is telling
    the truth?"       

    The popes of the past have reversed decisions of earlier popes. Papal
    infallibility looks pretty ridiculous to anyone who has read about the
    actions of "many" of the popes that have held the office. The book "A
    Distant Mirror" has some interesting tidbits on that.

    I believe the current pope is a good man. I also believe he is dead
    wrong in some of his views. From what I gather, American catholics have
    pretty much blown off the birth control ban and may eventually schism
    from the vatican run church. 

    As for my right to say that, I'm catholic baptized, episcopal
    confirmed, and pretty much a non-believer in organised religion. liesl

    Liesl
    
    Remember that the business of 'Papal infallibility' only applies
    to when the Pope is speaking 'ex post cathedra' not to his
    daily speeches and pronouncements.
    
    Actually the Roman Catholic church has only been against
    birth control and abortion for the past 130 or so  years. So
    yes the church has changed it's position on the subject in
    fairly recent history.
    
    and - speaking as a moderator here for a minute - can we all please
    try and be careful not to 'bash' Catholics in this string. There
    are Roman Catholics who read this file and it behoves us not to
    egregiously put down their faith.
    
    Bonnie and Bonnie J
    
    :-)

    From the point of view of a non-catholic looking at the world today,
    the pope's views seem pretty cold hearted and out of touch. If you stop
    for a moment to think about how a Catholic looks at these same
    problems, you find that the world is a different place. You do not
    change God's Truth because it is inconvenient. Yes, it would be easy to
    preach worldliness and birth control, but from the Pope's point of view
    that would be Wrong. From that point of view, if the the whole world
    practices birth control and abortion, the whole world is wrong.
    
    Revealed Truth is like that.
    
    	-- Charles
    
    P.S. The opinions expressed in this note are not necessarily those of
    the author.
    
    P.P.S. Can anyone (except Jerry Boyajian) identify the quote in my P.S.?

    The following item appeared in today's Gazette-Telegraph:

        Chicago Catholic Women, a reform-advocating organization, has
        called for a boycott of churches on this Mother's Day, protesting
        exclusion of women from governance of Roman Catholicism.

        The group, which scheduled a demonstration Sunday on the cathedral
        steps in Chicago, distributed a brochure saying all church laws
        and rules about women "are made solely by the following men"--a
        male pope, 151 male cardinals (nine in the United States) and 3,238
        male bishops (352 in the United States).

        Although 55 percent of church members are women, "the church has
        zero women in its governing, decision-making body," the group said. 
        "Women have the right to participate in decisions which affect
        their lives."

    -- Mike

    The Pope may speak as the elected (in a divinely inspired election)
    head of the church but he seems to not speak for many Catholics.  The
    American Catholic church is widely divided over the issues of birth
    control, abortion, women priests, women acolytes, and other issues.
    (Nor is it limited to American Catholics, the church in many other
    countries is in turmoil over "women's issues".)

    I do think that a schism is overdue.  What afterall was the Protestant
    reformation but a shakeup in the Catholic church due to canonical
    practices and beliefs?  Time for another reformation.

    Catholic nuns have petitioned the pope and been ignored.  Catholic
    priests have done likewise to no avail.  Many Catholic women practice
    birth control quietly.  Also, and very sadly, many very devote Catholic
    women get hysterectomies after the birth of their second or third
    child.  This can be confessed once and forgiven. Forgiveness is only
    granted when the confessing sinner is 1) truly repentant and 2)
    promises not to sin again.  Many Catholic women who use conventional
    birth control do not confess (as it would be more sinful to not do a
    full confession and heartfelt contrition).  Since they do not confess,
    they are also denying themselves communion.

    A friend who recently want through a Catholic pre-Canna and Catholic
    wedding told me that the priest counseled both her and her husband to
    NOT practice birth control and accept all the children born to them. 
    After years of being devout Catholics, they have both dropped
    away from the church as they find that for them, birth control is a
    necessity.  So for them, continuing as Catholics is immoral.

    There was a fairly large contingent of Catholic priests and nuns at the
    November pro-choice rally in Washington.  

    I believe that the Pope is very sincere and very spiritually alive.  I
    also think that strict adherence to Catholic doctrine makes for a
    miserable life for most people.  I see strict Catholicism as
    constraining the spirit, disallowing of questioning and questing, and
    too exclusionary of most of human experience and human interaction.
    
    The former Jesuit priest (now married and a father) Daniel Maguire 
    (one of my mentors/professors) is pro choice and he writes about
    choice and birth control as ethical and religiously acceptable
    alternatives for all women.
    
    FWIW: I was raised Catholic, baptized, and confirmed Catholic, attended
    Catholic grammar and high school and one year of Catholic college.
    I also spent a lot of time working with the liberal Jesuit portion of
    the church (Berrigans and Cullen) and ran afoul of two (count 'em two)
    bishops.  I now worship in the Episcopal church as it allows me to feel
    that being a woman is more than okay.  

    -1.  Reminds me of the old joke:

    What do they call couples who practice the rhythm method?

    Parents.

    The church also teaches that it is good for couples to abstain and
    offer the abstinence up to God.  Which makes a certain amount of
    religious sense but not a lot of marital sense.  Ah well.

    I wonder if the Pope sees overpopulation as a problem?  I wonder if he
    realizes the suffering of women and children dying while the world gets
    its act together to care for the poor. Which I much doubt will ever
    happen to an adequate level.

    I know that the Church teaches that the sanctity of human life is best
    and only served by making love and babies completely naturally.
    (Church, by the way, also condemns any kind of mechanical conception
    such as in vitro fertilization.)  Yet I cannot help but see that the
    lilies of the field are healthier and better fed than most children.

    I do not think the current pope will change.  Nor that the Catholic
    church will change much.  It is sad because it can be a force for much
    good due to its strength in the developing world and the Western
    nations.  The portions of the Church that teach liberation theology
    seem to do much more for people but does not receive much if any
    support from the Vatican and often has problems with it.

    For instance, the Catholic church in Haiti is essentially two churches. 
    The church of the Creole people and the church of the jeans.  Ti
    legleiz (the people's church) worked hard for Haitian freedom from
    Duvalier (Baby and Papa) and now works for real independence.  The
    Vatican-supported arm of the Haitian church supports and has always
    supported the status quo.  As in Renaissance Italy, the bishop is often
    a family member of the power elite.     

    It's almost as if the world has been given a lemon and the Church
    chooses to make holywater rather then lemonade.  Me, I'd rather work to
    improve the situation than offer the suffering up to God.

    Great thoughts for Mother's Day, eh?  I seem to be the resident noting
    curmudgeon these day.
      
       --Margaret

	RE: Pope and birth control

	I read the previous 16 replies and it set off some bells and whistles 
inside me. 

	First, From my understanding, Protestant married to a Cahtolic, The
Pope Is supposed to be the leader of the Church here on Earth.  To Be God's
representative.  He's human just like any other person so he can make mistakes
too.  I found that listening to what he has to say and reading what he writes
for the concepts or framework within that given subject is really a feeling
of what he and other human priests think is right, may not really be that way
tho.  It is how they view it; so who's to say if it is right or wrong, it is 
thier opinion.

	Second, One noter mentioned that a couple in Pre-Cana were told by the 
Priest that that they must use no form of contraception.  Boy was this guy 
wrong.  Just look what it did.  It destroyerd two people's faith in what they 
were brought up to believe in.  I work with the Family Life Ministry office 
for the Worcester Diocese for Pre-Cana and Couple to Couple ministries and 
that priest ought to be... well enough said.
The Pope put out an encyclicial some time back called the "Humane Vitae" and in 
it,  it expresses the value of the "quality of life".  Not how many children
you have but how well you take care of what you got.  I believe that you can
get a copy of this from your local library.  If not talk to your parish priest.
That encicycial sp(?) is a real eye opener and it can cut both ways!

	Third, The Catholic Church has come up with a "new and Better" way of
utilizing the old ryhtum method.  It's not called the rythum method but 
Natural Family Planning.  Call the Office of Family Life Ministry if your in the
Worcester area and they can send you a phamplet on it and you can sign up for
it.  I don't know what the charge is but it involves a lot of new and different 
types of concept in family planning.  It also put the "burden" on both folks.

	Fourth, Our Catholic church has female alter servers and eucharistic
ministers, on the Parish board, CCD board, Women's guild, Choir.  I may be 
missing something here but there are a lot of ways the Catholic women can 
affect change in the Church if you want to get active at the local level and
use that as a starting or jumping off place. Sometimes afecting change starts 
from within at the smaller levels and the watch it take off.

	Finally, I'm sorry for the length of this and I really don't mean to 
offend anyone.  If I did, I am truely sorry, but these are my opinions and 
I am entitled to at least that much.  Being married to a Catholic for 19 years
and very happy about it I am beginning to understand that it's not the type of
God you worship, just the pew that you sit in that sometimes makes the
difference.


			Thom Terriffic

    Re 17:  Yes, woman can serve as Eucharistic ministers and chair 
            committee's and serve and serve and serve in whatever
            capacity that they want but they still cannot be ordained
            priests or even deacons in the Catholic church.  I'm sure if
            that were to happen, views on methods of birth control would
            change drastically.
    
            I was raised Catholic and was an organist for over 20 years.
            I also served as head of lectors and chaired many different
            committees and taught CCD.  However, I left the church when
            I could take no more of the attitude that it has towards
            women.  I think a lot of women are leaving for the same
            reason.  We are a lone voice crying in the wilderness.  If,
            as stated in a previous note, 55% of the Catholic Church's
            population is women, then how come there are no women in 
            decision making positions?
    
            Sue
    

    I was raised Catholic, too, and that's all I needed to turn me off to
    organized religion.
    
    The Pope can deliver a message from the Almighty, (if you want to
    believe there is such a thing), but if he's saying his own words, the
    guy does not practice what he preaches.  He "denounces" materialism,
    too, but have you ever seen where HE lives?  What about the "holiness"
    of poverty?  I thought that was supposed to be as "good" as chastity or
    does that apply only to nuns and other women?  (BTW, the homosexual 
    activity among many Catholic priests is no secret anymore).
    
    Given just those hypocrisies, I have to laugh that birth control is 
    obviously not an issue for an old celibate man so I'm afraid it's pretty 
    easy for him to say, "Be fruitful and multiply" - even if that means you 
    end up breeding continuously, (one a year a woman can have!), until you 
    can't feed any of them and your lives go to shit.  He thinks couples ought 
    to abstain and "offer that abstinence up to God"?  What does that mean?  
    Does God want us to abstain?  What about "be fruitful and multiply?"  What 
    about the fact that refusing intercourse is grounds for divorce?  No 
    divorce allowed?  Then does Catholicism believe that the "ideal" situation 
    for people should be, no sex, breed, breed, breed, (?) (ok, maybe no
    FUN sex!), no materialism, (a roof is all you need - some privacy to 
    breed!), give your money to the church, (the vatican needs another gold 
    chalice or something), and endure the wrath of your husband, (and the 
    breakdown of a marriage you cannot end), because you won't have sex with 
    him after your 14th child.  Sounds pretty devout to me!  ;-)  
    
    I left the church because I never got my questions answered.  I just got 
    a lot of glaring looks from old men and frankly, that wasn't enough to
    control this little girl and turn her into a "paying parishoner
    generator".
    
    So it's against Catholicism to have an hysterectomy?  Gee, so when you
    prolapse from having all those kids, you're just supposed to walk
    funny and in pain for the rest of your life?  Offer that suffering "up
    to God", maybe?  Sorry, that's the life of a junkyard dog.

    
    	I see this as their rules for that style of faith.  If that's the
    way they think it is then that is the way it will be, unfortunatly.  We
    are all people with good thoughts and actions but the recent events
    i.e. eucharist ministers and alter servers show that there has been a 
    cheange and this could be the start of something bigger.  I also found
    out that there is an item called Roman-Canon Law that is not much
    publicsized.  That is the "rules" that supposedly every Catholic is
    supposed to follow.  But they never say anything about it.
    	Your point abouyt ordainment is corrrect and I will not dispute it.
    but do get your hand on the Humanae Vitae and those birth control
    issues will get answered, I'm sure.
    
    			Thom Terriffic
    

    Are there any scholars out there who actually *know* as oppossed to
    having an opinion on [although that could be interesting too], why the
    Catholic church changed its position on birth control, etc. "about 130
    years ago."  That would be about 1860--what was going on that a
    position on birth control should be taken then?  Was it just not
    necessary before then?
    
    Briana

    
    	Here's a couple of WAG's.  First this was the srat of the
    Industrial Revolution, second couls any of this have anything to do
    with the Council of Trent? (supposed to have hapend in the 1500 or 1600
    time period)
    			Thom Terriffic
    

    In 1869, Pope Pius X announced that, contrary to previous teachings,
    the soul was received at conception, not during the fifth month.
    You may find more background on this in _Against_Our_Will:_Men,_
    _Women,_and_Rape_ by Susan Brownmillar, and in _The_Sexual_Experience_
    by B.J. Sadock, H.I. Kaplan, and A.M. Freedman.
    
    							Ann B.

    re:.17
    
    	� First, From my understanding, Protestant married to a
    	Cahtolic, The Pope Is supposed to be the leader of the
    	Church here on Earth. To Be God's representative. He's
    	human just like any other person so he can make mistakes
    	too. I found that listening to what he has to say and
    	reading what he writes for the concepts or framework
    	within that given subject is really a feeling of what
    	he and other human priests think is right, may not
    	really be that way tho. It is how they view it; so who's
    	to say if it is right or wrong, it is thier opinion. �
    
    That's not the way "Papal Infallibility" works. Precisely *because*
    the Pope is God's Representative on Earth, it is believed that as
    far as Church Doctrine goes, God would not allow the Pope to speak
    falsely. Thus, if the Pope gives an opinion on who killed Laura
    Palmer on TWIN PEAKS, it's his own opinion and can be wrong. But
    if he says that artificial birth control methods are against the
    will of God, he *must* be speaking the truth because God wouldn't
    let him err.
    
    Disclaimer:  I don't personally believe in Papal Infallibility (for
    one thing, I'm not Catholic and thus do not recognize the Pope as
    God's Representative on Earth), but this is the way the concept
    was explained to me by a friend who is a very devout Catholic and
    very knowledgeable about his faith.
    
    --- jerry

    
    re. 24
    
    If one is Catholic and goes by the book, one should never get Aids
    through sex. I mean, one should only have one partner in life.
    So, under normal circumstances, ie. no transfusion or no drug abuse,
    one doesn't have to worry about it or any VD. Of course, this is a
    over-simplified picture. But, it is very typical of the church to
    put on blinders.
    
    
    Eva. 

    --- jerry
    
    it is my understanding (tho I'm not a Roman Catholic either) that
    the Pope is infallible only when he speaks 'ex cathedra' -
    like when the Pope in the 19th century made a pronouncement on
    the assumption of the Virgin Mary. The Pope is not held to be
    incapable of erring in his daily conversation or sermons.
    
    Bonnie

    Well how about a hemophiliac virgin who tests positive due to a blood
    transfusion?  According to this church, is this person not allowed to
    marry or is this person expected to condemn the spouse to death since
    condoms are "bad"?
    
    The Catholic church simply doesn't have the luxury of holding on to 
    its extreme position anymore.  Its doctrines do not fit smoothly into
    human nature, (and who MADE that nature, anyway?), so therefore it
    actually denies a lot of what is human, creates an awful lot of
    heartache and misery as some humans believe that their mere humanness
    is sinful, shameful and wrong and expend enormous amounts of energy to
    deny their humanness and that of others.
    
    Did you ever notice that most organized religions are obsessed with
    food and sex?  They give lip service to "thou shalt not kill", (and the
    various forms of that), but wars go on, death and the killers glorified, 
    and sex among the "celibate" priests quietly condoned while the average 
    schmo, working hard, raising children, trying to live a good and 
    decent life is under the microscope being watched in case one of them 
    uses a condom.  Give me a break.
    
    Rules are made for the average person.  The very wealthy and the very
    poor are generally exempt.  Bush can order the death and destruction of
    the Panamanian people, (where was the Pope on that one?), but if those
    Panamanian people even THINK about using a condom...