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| Title: | Topics of Interest to Women |
| Notice: | V3 is closed. TURRIS::WOMANNOTES-V5 is open. |
| Moderator: | REGENT::BROOMHEAD |
|
| Created: | Thu Jan 30 1986 |
| Last Modified: | Fri Jun 30 1995 |
| Last Successful Update: | Fri Jun 06 1997 |
| Number of topics: | 1078 |
| Total number of notes: | 52352 |
114.0. "The Politics of Motherhood" by GEMVAX::KOTTLER () Tue May 08 1990 13:05
Since I was the one who spoiled the Happy Mothers' Day note by questioning
it as a valid symbol in a society that basically devalues both womanhood
and motherhood, I thought it might be good to use the subsequent discussion
to start a new topic on the politics of motherhood. I deleted the ones at
the end on Barbara Bush since there's a separate topic for those.
If anyone has anything more to say on the institution of motherhood in our
society (including the whole shebang: pregnancy, childbirth, raising the
child) - attitudes towards it, its history, its control by men, its
representation (or lack of it) in, say, artistic and religious milieus, and
any other aspect, this could be the place to say it.
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Note 70.9 Mothers Day Wishes 9 of 57
GEMVAX::KOTTLER 10 lines 1-MAY-1990 08:55
-< From the Kitchen Cynic... >-
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Not to spoil the fun, but...I believe that if our society really valued
mothers and what they do, it would at least pay them salaries. To put them
on a pedestal of flowers and greeting cards one day out of 365 only
underscores how little it does value them and what they do (though it
contributes substantially to Madison Avenue's salary!).
Thanks but no thanks,
Dorian
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Note 70.10 Mothers Day Wishes 10 of 57
TLE::D_CARROLL "Sisters are doin' it for themselves" 16 lines 1-MAY-1990 09:40
-< In defense of MD >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, I am not going to pay my mother a salary, nor am I going to pay my father
a salary (and if mothers are payed, shouldn't fathers be?) but I *do* tell and
show them as often as I can that I love them and appreciate all the work, time,
money and heartache they put in to raising me. For me, Mother's Day is the day
to send Mom flowers or make breakfast in bed for her, to show her I appreciate
her. The other 364 days a year are for me to hug her or call her up or have
her over for dinner or send her cards to show her I appreciate her. I don't
forget the rest of the time.
Sure, Mother's Day primarly exists for the card and flower business. But I
think it also exists for mothers and children, because sometimes it is easy
to forget how much your mother has done for you, to take it for granted, and
some of us need a kick in the pants every now and then to *remind* us how much
we owe our parents.
D!
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Note 70.11 Mothers Day Wishes 11 of 57
CVG::THOMPSON "My friends call me Alfred" 8 lines 1-MAY-1990 11:25
-< depends on a lot of variables I guess >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Not to spoil the fun, but...I believe that if our society really valued
> mothers and what they do, it would at least pay them salaries.
Maybe if I'd been raised by a mother and not a single parent father
I'd understand this comment. But I wasn't and I don't. I've always
thought society undervalued the fathers role.
Alfred
================================================================================
Note 70.12 Mothers Day Wishes 12 of 57
GEMVAX::KOTTLER 32 lines 1-MAY-1990 11:57
-< yes, but... >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I still say if society really valued motherhood, we'd be getting paid for
it. You know, the way they pay doctors, lawyers, corporation presidents,
baseball stars ... somehow I don't think breakfast in bed once a year and
an occasional hug would satisfy too many of them ... could it be that
society considers what these people do more important than the bearing and
rearing of new generations?
For many mothers -- and some fathers -- parenting is a full-time job; it's
certainly "work"; many people (if not society as a whole) consider it
extremely valuable; they may not have any other source of income. Does it
make sense for a mother to go out and get a paying job, and have to put her
kids in a day-care center and then pay the center's staff for what is
essentially a mothering service, rather than for the mother to stay home
and get paid directly? Why do we only pay for mothering when it's set up
as a business and done by people who are not in fact our children's
mothers?
This last point was brought home to me in Arlington a couple of years ago
when I saw a bumper sticker for the Arlington Children's Center that said,
"We Hugged Your Child Today."
My understanding is that there was a time when mothers and motherhood were
truly valued by society, but it started to decline around 5000 years ago
and other values gradually replaced it. Some think there was a cost
involved, and that the fact that today virtually none of society's major
institutions (you know, governments, corporations, law-making bodies, where
the power is) are informed by anything resembling maternal types of values
is part of what's wrong with the world today ...
Dorian
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Note 70.13 Mothers Day Wishes 13 of 57
ULTRA::ZURKO "a million ways to get things done." 5 lines 1-MAY-1990 12:33
-< how to recompense full-time child-raising? >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>My understanding is that there was a time when mothers and motherhood were
>truly valued by society,
How did society recompense parents and nurturers then? Payment? Integration?
Mez
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Note 70.14 Mothers Day Wishes 14 of 57
WAHOO::LEVESQUE "short term memory loss" 45 lines 1-MAY-1990 12:41
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>I still say if society really valued motherhood, we'd be getting paid for
>it. You know, the way they pay doctors, lawyers, corporation presidents,
>baseball stars ...
Ok, Dorian... I'll bite. Who should do the paying, and what are they getting
for their money?
>could it be that
>society considers what these people do more important than the bearing and
>rearing of new generations?
In our society, the amount you get paid is related to the amount of value
others perceive you to provide such that they will pay you to continue to
provide that value. I design network hardware for which DEC gives me a salary
because they need network hardware. If being a mother is a paying job, who
is getting what service, and how much is it worth?
>For many mothers -- and some fathers -- parenting is a full-time job; it's
>certainly "work";
Absolutely true. And it's a difficult job, too.
>Does it
>make sense for a mother to go out and get a paying job, and have to put her
>kids in a day-care center and then pay the center's staff for what is
>essentially a mothering service, rather than for the mother to stay home
>and get paid directly?
Again, who is going to pay her and what are they going to pay her for?
>Why do we only pay for mothering when it's set up
>as a business and done by people who are not in fact our children's
>mothers?
Everything is a trade. When I watch my daughter every saturday morning, I am
doing my job. It is worth value to me, and my wife. Should I be paid for the
work of watching my own daughter? By whom? What are they getting in return?
For someone who is a fulltime homemaker, they are getting paid- just not in
dollars. They are getting a place to live, food, clothing, etc. They are getting
purchasing power via the family budget. Ought the husband/father/SO give the
mother a check each week, and then collect it back to pay for her share of the
rent and other costs of living?
The Doctah
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Note 70.15 Mothers Day Wishes 15 of 57
GEMVAX::KOTTLER 33 lines 1-MAY-1990 13:42
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re .14 -
Hey, I don't know how to work out the details of where the money would
come from. (Only we don't seem to have that problem when it comes to
paying people in other walks of life.) Maybe the gummint could supply it? If
it weren't shelling out so much money on other, non-maternal-related
projects, like defense against war?
What would they be getting for their money? New individuals, raised
with love and care and intelligence to be good members of society...I
realize that's loaded language and of course, not everyone would agree
on terms...but we do have lawyers who surely, for a fee, could work
things out.
By homemakers I presume you mean women who are married to men who draw
a salary. What you say is true, she is then receiving such things. But
personally I wouldn't consider them analogous to a salary of her own.
For one thing, she's completely dependent on the man, financially.
Maybe our valuation of mothers (or devaulation) is parallel to our
devaluation of children. Certainly the amount of money we spend on
educating them suggests this. Unless, of course, kids are perceived as
a market group, capable of spending money on merchandise...then
suddenly they become quite valuable!
re .13
In those ancient times I'm not sure there was such a thing as
money...but mothers/motherhood were valued in a religious sense...as
the divine creators of life. Not too much of that around any more...
Scrooge
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Note 70.16 Mothers Day Wishes 16 of 57
WAHOO::LEVESQUE "short term memory loss" 42 lines 1-MAY-1990 14:04
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> Hey, I don't know how to work out the details of where the money would
> come from.
Interesting...
>(Only we don't seem to have that problem when it comes to
> paying people in other walks of life.)
That is because they provide other people with a service that those other
people are willing to pay money for. It is completely voluntary on both parts-
the service provider and the consumer. Either party can discontinue the ongoing
transaction at any time, or renegotiate the going price. I doubt you'd want
the same attributes for the job of mother.
>Maybe the gummint could supply it?
Where does the gummint get its money? Do you have any idea how inefficient
it is to give money to the government so they can give it back?
> What would they be getting for their money? New individuals, raised
> with love and care and intelligence to be good members of society..
I don't think everyone values that service, or thinks that the cost would
be worth it.
> By homemakers I presume you mean women who are married to men who draw
> a salary.
A homemaker, for reasons of this example, is someone who raises children
and cares for the home. S/he of necessity must have some sort of relationship
with someone else who has income or assets sufficient to meet both of their
needs.
> For one thing, she's completely dependent on the man, financially.
Is it better to be completely dependent financially on the government? Or is
it the same?
I'll agree that mothers ought to be valued more than they are, but I don't
believe paying them a salary would be helpful.
The Doctah
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Note 70.17 Mothers Day Wishes 17 of 57
LEZAH::BOBBITT "pools of quiet fire..." 24 lines 1-MAY-1990 14:27
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I get this weird feeling that if suddenly men were sitting home, doing
childcare 99% of the time, they'd be getting either pay or more
recognition or more support from this society than women currently are.
I think the valuation of mothering is low because they're women. And
because it's always been this way.
I think it would be wonderful if there were community centers where
parents could go and bring their children, or leave their children with
other parents and children if they had to do shopping or something (on
an equal time-on time-off basis of course)......
where educational and developmental tools were readily available and a
medical staff was present all the time, and these centers would be free
for everyone's use.
Then again I also think it would be wonderful if this nation's
educational budge would suddenly double. I think it's time to stop the
cold war and the armies and the military intrigue and just pay
attention to the people of this country and their needs. I think the
money is there in abundance, it's just not being handed out the right
way.
-Jody
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Note 70.18 Mothers Day Wishes 18 of 57
HANNAH::MODICA 7 lines 1-MAY-1990 14:27
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Doc, or anyone..
What do you mean by "mothers ought to be valued more"?
When did mothers start to be valued less?
Hank
================================================================================
Note 70.19 Mothers Day Wishes 19 of 57
LEZAH::BOBBITT "pools of quiet fire..." 20 lines 1-MAY-1990 14:30
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I think mothers became less valued when society began taking them for
granted, and removing their power. stay-at-home non-working mothers
have no power in this society. They have few if any rights. They have
no voice in the monetary running of this country, and no clout when it
comes to getting their needs met (unless they all band together and
scream simultaneously with their votes, or their pin-money - which
results in the soothing "there, there" that patronizing politicians oft
return).
I think we can love our mothers to death, but until this society fully
appreciates exactly how much they give, how much work they do, and how
goddam necesssary they are for the future, there will BE no peace for
housewives who take pride in raising children - they will be made to
feel they out to be career women or they ought to be doing this or
that, that what they are doing is not ENOUGH in our society's eyes, and
can never equal the value we put on the godalmighty dollar....
-Jody
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Note 70.20 Mothers Day Wishes 20 of 57
LYRIC::BOBBITT "pools of quiet fire..." 34 lines 1-MAY-1990 14:41
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more thoughts.....
I think another clue to how much we could value motherhood can be found
in the following:
Someone walks up to you and says:
"I gave 3 hours to public television taking donations over the phone
last night"
You think they're charitable, and kind, they feel they've made a
contribution, you smile and acknowledge that you feel they have too.
"I gave 6 hours to a battered women's shelter comforting women in
pain"
You think they're kind, understanding, giving, and that they're a real
humanitarian who strives to reduce the plight of human suffering. And
they have.
"I gave 20 hours coordinating the Walk for Hunger, and setting up
waystations along the route, and getting pledges"
Now they're giving time, energy, and coordinational ability towards a
tremendous city-wide effort to help those in need. Highly appreciable
and a good deal of effort - beyond the call of duty in many ways.
"I gave 14 hours of my time to my children today."
"I do this every day."
How does it sound now?
-Jody
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Note 70.21 Mothers Day Wishes 21 of 57
GEMVAX::KOTTLER 6 lines 1-MAY-1990 14:44
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Jody,
You put it very well!
Dorian
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Note 70.22 Mothers Day Wishes 22 of 57
REGENT::BROOMHEAD "Don't panic -- yet." 11 lines 1-MAY-1990 14:45
-< Heh, heh, heh. >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nestled away in _Ethan_of_Athos_ are a few comments about the
finances of Athos, a planet without women. (Eh? Ovarian tissue
and uterine replicators. Why do you ask?) We know from the first
chapter that it is a very poor planet, but we later learn that it
is poor because the nurturers *are* paid.
Did you know that the United Nations definition of what constitutes
"work" for purposes of determining Gross National Product, etc.,
is carefully designed to exclude all `women's work' from consideration?
Ann B.
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Note 70.23 Mothers Day Wishes 23 of 57
COGITO::SULLIVAN "Singing for our lives" 17 lines 1-MAY-1990 14:47
-< a token of our esteem >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dorian, I think you raise some excellent points. Of course if I were a
mother, I would think it was very sweet if my children gave me a card
or cooked me breakfast on Mother's day. But it is sad that in a
culture where the concept of MOTHER is sacred so many mothers find
themselves well below the poverty line, unable to get adequate food,
shelter, health care. It is something to think about. I think it's
quite telling that our present economic system really doesn't allow for
a practical way to pay mothers for the time, energy, and skill they
give all of us through their work of caring for children.
I'm sure that as individuals many of us honor and love our mothers, but
the points that Dorian raises remind me that as a society, we really
don't seem to value the work of child-rearers, work that is primarily
done by mothers or other women.
Justine
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Note 70.24 Mothers Day Wishes 24 of 57
GEMVAX::KOTTLER 20 lines 1-MAY-1990 15:02
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re . 16 -
To me, your last statement is logically inconsistent - "I'll agree that
mothers ought to be valued more than they are, but I don't believe paying
them a salary would be helpful." How else do we value anyone in our
society, if not by paying them money?
In my view, paying mothers (or fathers, if they're the primary caretakers)
a salary would not only recognize that the job has value, it might also
encourage people to do a better job, since it would be taken more
seriously. Of course, since (as you suggest; this is really the core of the
problem) society pretty much *doesn't* recognize that the job has value,
it's not likely to happen...
Oh well. At least I have Virginia Woolf on my side (in her book Three Guineas).
Now if I can just find one of those VW T-shirts... ;-)
Dorian
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Note 70.25 Mothers Day Wishes 25 of 57
WAHOO::LEVESQUE "short term memory loss" 15 lines 1-MAY-1990 15:05
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> What do you mean by "mothers ought to be valued more"?
> When did mothers start to be valued less?
The job of mothering is (as my mother describes it) a "thankless job." Nobody
tells you when you're doing a good job, only when you aren't. Frankly, mothers
are generally taken for granted, in my estimation.
I think that mothering is a tough job. It is not the sort of job you get to
leave a 5:00. I have alot of respect for women (or men) than can stay home all
day with their kids. It takes alot of patience and alot of work.
Good mothers provide an essential service to all of us, and are all too rare
these days. Good parents in general are too rare IMO.
The Doctah
================================================================================
Note 70.26 Mothers Day Wishes 26 of 57
WAHOO::LEVESQUE "short term memory loss" 60 lines 1-MAY-1990 15:20
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re: Ann
> Did you know that the United Nations definition of what constitutes
> "work" for purposes of determining Gross National Product, etc.,
> is carefully designed to exclude all `women's work' from consideration?
How would you change this?
re: Justine
>I think it's
> quite telling that our present economic system really doesn't allow for
> a practical way to pay mothers for the time, energy, and skill they
> give all of us through their work of caring for children.
How would you change this?
re: Dorian
>How else do we value anyone in our society, if not by paying them money?
In order to get money, you have to give someone something they will trade
dollars for. As a parent, who are you giving something to that is worth
payment? Your spouse? The children? "Society?" You said you didn't know where
the money was supposed to come from, but you felt that some ought to be
forthcoming. Then you suggested the government ought to pay mothers for
rasing their children. Hmmm. Does this mean the government has the right to
pay mothers based on how they perceive the mothers are doing in raising their
kids? "If your children are 'good,' you get $x more per month..."
> In my view, paying mothers (or fathers, if they're the primary caretakers)
>a salary would not only recognize that the job has value, it might also
>encourage people to do a better job, since it would be taken more
>seriously.
Why? By whom? If someone told you they'd give you $100 week to keep doing
what you are already doing, how would that change your opinion of what you are
doing? How would that change your opinion of money?
>Of course, since (as you suggest; this is really the core of the
>problem) society pretty much *doesn't* recognize that the job has value,
>it's not likely to happen...
How do you measure the value? What is the difference between a good mother
and a bad mother? It sounds like you are suggesting that we each get taxed
a certain amount to pay to people so they will raise their children right.
Do you really believe that people who currently do a poor job raising their
kids would suddenly start raising them right? What if they didn't? Should we
stop paying them?
Your contention that mothers ought to be paid (ostensibly by society) raises
many more questions than it answers.
Being a parent is a voluntary act. It carries responsibility with it. I can't
see the value in paying people to do what they should already be doing,
especially when there's no guarantee that they'd do it anyway.
It really sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it too.
The Doctah
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Note 70.27 Mothers Day Wishes 27 of 57
LEZAH::BOBBITT "pools of quiet fire..." 17 lines 1-MAY-1990 15:43
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You asked many questions (15 or so I'd guess) in that response, Mark.
I don't think any answers will be evident soon. I think what's going in
is a delineation of a problem, rather than an actual bona fide ironclad
operable solution. I think it's perfectly okay to discuss a problem
and NOT come up with a fully implementable solution. I don't think the
*results* of a discussion that pinpoint a problem without coming up with
a definite solution are incomplete, although your mileage may vary.
> Your contention that mothers ought to be paid (ostensibly by society) raises
> many more questions than it answers.
Yes, including "how did we get here"....I'd love to see that one
answered.
-Jody
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Note 70.28 Mothers Day Wishes 28 of 57
TLE::D_CARROLL "Sisters are doin' it for themselves" 43 lines 1-MAY-1990 16:01
-< I say "No" >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you want to treat motherhood as a job, in terms of salary, you have to
treat it as a job in other respects, which would *totally* change the
way motherhood works.
First off, if you aren't doing a good job, you get fired. In this case,
I guess that means they take your child away. It would *have* to become
a lot easier for the goverment to take a child away than it is now. After
all, if you are getting paid for it, then you don't have a "right" to do
it the way you do now.
Secondly, we would have to be able to limit births. After all, for any
other job, people have to apply, prove their qualifications, etc. We can't
have a job where anyone with a working womb is guaranteed and income.
Therefore - enforced birth control. or at least, if you haven't been
accepted for the position of Mother, they take your child away at birth
and give him/her to someone who *has* been accepted.
Some standard of "goodness" has to be developped. You will have to have
periodic reviews of how "good" a mother you are being. If you aren't being
a good mother, you get demoted, or even fired. How are we going to develop
this standard? Seems to me, given knowledge of how the government tends to
work, that ths standard will enforce the status quo, where "good" will be
defined as what always has been. Dr. Spock never would have cut it. If
everyone raises their child the same, conformity in children will result.
Oh yay.
I personally would find it strongly objectionable if Somebody (presumably
the government) were to start thinking of Motherhood as a Job, that has
to be qualified for, applied for, reviewed, etc. And if it isn't a Job
like other jobs, then why should you get paid for it? If you want the
salary of Real Job without the other things, then it really is a matter,
as the Doctah said, of having your cake and eating it too.
When it comes down to it, the real flaw with the motherhood-as-job argument
is that it doesn't make sense to pay someone to do something where the
only skill required is the skill necessary to insert tab A in slot B.
(WHOA! Stop right there, don't type REPLY to flame me about how hard
work motherhood is - I know it is. *Good* mothers put a lot of working
in to raising children. But you don't have to be a *good* mother to be
a mother - all you have to do is have active ovaries and access to some
sperm - I'm not going to pay someone for that.)
D!
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Note 70.29 Mothers Day Wishes 29 of 57
SNOBRD::CONLIFFE "Cthulhu Barata Nikto" 15 lines 1-MAY-1990 16:05
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I think Dorion hit a nail squarely on the head.
>How else do we value anyone in our society, if not by paying them money?
These days, it seems, some people (?a majority?) measure value ONLY in terms
of money. Perhaps this is why motherhood (well, parenthood, homemaking,...)
is undervalued; not because the task has changed or is any less onerous, but
because the definition of what is valuable has narrowed tremendously.
Perhaps, rather than thinking in terms of "How can we pay people a salary for
staying at home", we need to think in terms of "How can we expand our definition
of 'value'?"
Nigel
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Note 70.30 Mothers Day Wishes 30 of 57
HANNAH::MODICA 12 lines 1-MAY-1990 16:19
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I guess I'm one of those people who doesn't associate
value in our society with money. Love, trust, compassion,
moral values, etc., are some of what I value most. These
were taught to me by my grandmother and mother. I can't possibly
assign a monetary value and pay them back accordingly for
having raised me as they had. Perhaps, for my mothers, the best
way to pay them (back) is to be the adult they were trying to mold,
and most of all, love and respect them as they had done for
me so unconditionally.
Hank
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Note 70.31 Mothers Day Wishes 31 of 57
DZIGN::STHILAIRE "do you have a brochure?" 7 lines 1-MAY-1990 16:51
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re .30, that sounds very nice, but I hope that in addition to love,
trust, moral values, compassion, being a good person, etc., that
my daughter also pays me back by buying me expensive gifts every
Mother's Day, as soon as she grows up and starts getting a pay check!
Lorna
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Note 70.32 Mothers Day Wishes 32 of 57
GEMVAX::KOTTLER 35 lines 2-MAY-1990 08:34
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Maybe the real issue here is not so much whether society should pay mothers
a salary (though I'm in favor of the idea), which might, after all, at this
point, be a bit like trying use a bandaid to cure cancer. Maybe the real
issue is -- if I'm right that their lack of salary is an indication of how
little they're valued -- *why* they're so little valued. I think Jody
answered this question: mothering is devalued in our society because, for
the most part, it's something done by women, and "women's work" is, by
definition, unimportant.
Adrienne Rich, in her book *Of Woman Born*, gives a profound analysis of
the experience and institution of motherhood in patriarchal society. She
talks about males' deep-seated anxiety about their mothers; the Mother
Goddess in ancient times and the gradual devaluation of the feminine
life-giving principle by patriarchal religions; the definition of women as
men's property, as men came to perceive their role in reproduction and
to insist on controlling who their children were; males' fostering of the
view that women's maternal functions -- menstruation, childbirth -- made
them unclean; the taking over of the act of childbirth, once wholly the
province of female midwives, by male physicians; the Judeo-Christian dictum
that women must suffer the pain of childbirth, that it must not be
alleviated; the imprisonment of women in unwanted pregnancy and motherhood,
and the effects of this on women.
On the history of motherhood, Rich quotes Joseph Campbell:
"There can be no doubt that in the very earliest ages of human history the
magical force and wonder of the female was no less a marvel than the
universe itself; and this gave to women a prodigious power, which it has
been one of the chief concerns of the masculine part of the population to
break, control and employ to its own ends."
Mothers' Day? Can you say "how to add insult to injury"?
Dorian
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Note 70.33 Mothers Day Wishes 33 of 57
LYRIC::BOBBITT "pools of quiet fire..." 7 lines 2-MAY-1990 09:26
-< another good book >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
re: .32
Those themes are also prevalent in "The Mermaid and the Minotaur -
Sexual Arrangements and Human Malaise" by Dorothy Dinnerstein.
-Jody
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Note 70.34 Mothers Day Wishes 34 of 57
WAHOO::LEVESQUE "short term memory loss" 50 lines 2-MAY-1990 09:33
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re: Jody
> You asked many questions (15 or so I'd guess) in that response, Mark.
> I don't think any answers will be evident soon.
I didn't expect to see many; they were hard questions, the type that may lead
one to question original assumptions.
>I don't think the
> *results* of a discussion that pinpoint a problem without coming up with
> a definite solution are incomplete, although your mileage may vary.
I suppose...
re: Diana
>If you want to treat motherhood as a job, in terms of salary, you have to
>treat it as a job in other respects, which would *totally* change the
>way motherhood works.
Exactly.
re: Nigel
> Perhaps, rather than thinking in terms of "How can we pay people a salary for
>staying at home", we need to think in terms of "How can we expand our definition
>of 'value'?"
I think this is "the answer."
re: Dorian
>Maybe the real issue here is not so much whether society should pay mothers
>a salary (though I'm in favor of the idea), which might, after all, at this
>point, be a bit like trying use a bandaid to cure cancer.
Exactly. Using a bandaid to treat cancer is pointless and a waste of bandaids
since it does nothing whatsoever to address the root of the problem.
>I think Jody
>answered this question: mothering is devalued in our society because, for
>the most part, it's something done by women, and "women's work" is, by
>definition, unimportant.
I disagree with this, but I realize that some men do believe that women's work
is less important. I think the number of men that look down upon women's
work is rapidly decreasing, as they are exposed to the rigors of the things
that traditional women do.
The Doctah
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Note 70.35 Mothers Day Wishes 35 of 57
GEMVAX::KOTTLER 7 lines 2-MAY-1990 09:50
-< sticking to it >-
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re .34 -
On the other hand, even if bandaids don't cure cancer, they often make
the patient feel better. So I still like the salary/bandaid idea; it's
better than nothing!
Dorian
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Note 70.36 Mothers Day Wishes 36 of 57
COGITO::SULLIVAN "Singing for our lives" 38 lines 2-MAY-1990 09:52
-< Let's throw out the obvious, not restate it >-
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re .34
>>I didn't expect to see many [answers]; they were hard questions,
>>the type that may lead one to question original assumptions.
Mark, I think that the questions that have been raised here with regard
to what it means that mothers are unpaid (and I think undervalued --
not always sure which one caused the other) require that we challenge
our original assumptions. I think that your response to those
questions really just restates the original assumptions. That work is
paid for when it's valued, and the most valuable work is paid the most.
And that motherhood can't be quantified and then paid for. I think the
objections you raise are valid. In our current system I can't think
of how we could make this different either. But I'd like to try and
imagine something different even if it's impossible to realize it.
I mean, maybe if I can see something very different in my wildest
imaginings, I can make something a little different in the here and
now. I think if I only let myself think about how I could make
something different work in the world we have now, I'll never get
anywhere. I agree with the point Jody made that it's ok to mull over
a problem a while before imposing the need for solutions.
>>I think the number of men that look down upon women's
>>work is rapidly decreasing, as they are exposed to the
>>rigors of the things that traditional women do.
We might disagree about how rapidly that change is happening, but I
agree that there's been some progress. But I think that the place
where we've made the most progress is that women have more choices for work
outside the home. There still aren't very many men choosing to work
inside the home (fulltime), and I think that many women don't feel
valued when they choose to make caring for children and running a home
a fulltime career.
Justine
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Note 70.37 Mothers Day Wishes 37 of 57
ULTRA::WITTENBERG "Secure Systems for Insecure Peopl" 9 lines 2-MAY-1990 10:51
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nit picking on .32:
It is not a Judeo-Christian dictum that the pain of childbirth
must not be alleviated, it is a Christian dictum. In Jewish law
menstrual and childbirth pains are "a curse and not a
commandment", so one is free to try to avoid or alleviate the
pain.
--David
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Note 70.38 Mothers Day Wishes 38 of 57
GEMVAX::KOTTLER 9 lines 2-MAY-1990 11:59
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re .37 -
I see what you're saying, but isn't the source of the idea that women must
suffer in childbirth -- whether or not that idea was interpreted as an
actual commandment or merely a "curse" 8-{ -- the Book of Genesis in the Old
Testament?
Dorian
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Note 70.39 Mothers Day Wishes 39 of 57
ULTRA::WITTENBERG "Secure Systems for Insecure Peop" 15 lines 2-MAY-1990 13:37
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: .38
I think that Genesis was stating a fact. Some woman have painful
menses, and almost all childbirth is painful. Any observant person
will be aware of that. Having established that fact, one runs into
the question of what to do when (much later) technology makes it
possible to alleviate the pain. The Jewish interpretation is that
the pain is a curse, which one may try to alleviate, rather than a
commandment to suffer, which one must obey. That this occus in
Genesis merely speaks to how old the observation is, and is not
the cause of the pain. (This is from my view of the Old Testament
as a book written by people, I don't know how one would view it if
one believes that the Old Testament was Divinely written.)
--David
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Note 70.40 Mothers Day Wishes 40 of 57
WMOIS::B_REINKE "dreamer of dreams" 7 lines 2-MAY-1990 14:17
-< no anesthesia! >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David,
Among some Christians in the past it was preached that it was
breaking God's law (as laid down in the old testament) to ease
the pain of women in child birth.
Bonnie
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Note 70.41 Mothers Day Wishes 41 of 57
FDCV01::ROSS 19 lines 2-MAY-1990 16:52
-< I Think This Was David's Point >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.37> It is not a Judeo-Christian dictum that the pain of childbirth
.37> must not be alleviated, it is a Christian dictum. In Jewish law
^^^^^^^^^
.37> menstrual and childbirth pains are "a curse and not a
.37> commandment", so one is free to try to avoid or alleviate the
.37> pain.
.40> Among some Christians in the past it was preached that it was
^^^^^^^^^^
.40> breaking God's law (as laid down in the old testament) to ease
.40> the pain of women in child birth.
Bonnie, I think that was the distinction David was trying to make.
That it was *Christian* interpretation of the Old Testament that
led to this practice, not *Jewish* interpretation of the OT.
Alan
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Note 70.42 Mothers Day Wishes 42 of 57
WMOIS::B_REINKE "sparks fly round your head" 7 lines 2-MAY-1990 19:43
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okay
I guess I felt it needed rephrasing..
let me go back and read it again
bj
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Note 70.43 Mothers Day Wishes 43 of 57
USCTR2::DONOVAN "cutsie phrase or words of wisdom" 19 lines 3-MAY-1990 00:31
-< Just Lots of Love >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What I would like to see is more flexibility in the workforce
surrounding the needs of families. (flex-hours, near site day care etc)
That's how DIGITAL could respect us.
The idea of paying mothers is kind of novel. I think we do that with
AFDC. Don't we?
Being a mother certainly isn't anything mysterious. All it takes is a
a few hormones, a couple of ovaries and one expandable uterous. Most
of us don't want pay, applause or kudos. We'd just want a fair shake.
Kate
By the way, I meant this note to be a Happy Mother's Day wish.
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Note 70.44 Mothers Day Wishes 44 of 57
GEMVAX::KOTTLER 4 lines 3-MAY-1990 08:38
-< just wanted to clarify where the idea comes from. >-
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"Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy
conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children." -- Genesis III, 16
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Note 70.46 Mothers Day Wishes 46 of 57
TOKNOW::METCALFE "Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers" 15 lines 3-MAY-1990 10:05
-< Hi, Mom! >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
New International Version translates it this way:
"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give
birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will
rule over you." - Genesis 3:16
It sounds like before, there was -discomfort- at worst in childbearing and
an equality between the sexes (in Eden). Therefore, if I may be allowed
to interpret it this way (read that "IMO"), the perfect order (Eden) had
the sexes on equal footing (?).
...just mind-wandering on this...better stop now.
Mark
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Note 70.47 Mothers Day Wishes 47 of 57
TOKNOW::METCALFE "Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers" 6 lines 3-MAY-1990 10:07
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
P.S. I think this has strayed from the topic.
Moderators.
Please move my .-1 topic if you think necessary, and delete this one at will.
================================================================================
Note 70.48 Mothers Day Wishes 48 of 57
SCDGAT::REGNELL "Smile!--Payback is a MOTHER!" 56 lines 3-MAY-1990 11:14
-< Johnny-come-lately-reply >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, I was pointed at this note because I entered a similar thought in
the HumanRelations conference and summarily got my head chopped off
[grin].
So, as an "after-the-facter" who has read all 47 replies, I will add my
2 cents worth.
I think there are two issues about Motherhood being dallied with here.
The first has to with how much society at-large is willing/able to
*hold in esteem* those members of the society that perform the duties
of Motherhood. Several notes have brushed against what I think is
amajor cause for a *lack* of esteem; namely, our new-found [sic]
ability to not only alleviate the pain of childbirth but also the
danger of rearing children.
*Technologically* it is just too easy to succeed these days. So, a
society that has legislated itself away from holding intangibles
as important...[our whole legal system would collapse...everything is
based to heavily on tangible evidence]...find itself in conflict over
addressing intangible service in an appropriate manner.
Mothers are not the only group who suffer from this. The entire
heterogenous groups of social workers and teachers, for example, also
suffer from the same malaise.
The previous replies have run the gamut, I think on possible ways to
and to not address this. My 1/2 cent on this portion of the topic is
that until and unless our society changes the basis upon which it was
built, bandaids [aptly put by someone] is all you are going to get.
The second issue is, however, I think more addressable...and to me is
the more important f the two.
That deals with how much *esteem* mothers are willing to hold
themselves in. We have contributed to our own demise in that we have
allowed men and society to denegrate our roles as care-givers and
nurturers. This is such a simple thing, I know it sounds ridiculous.
But if *I* do not value my role as a mother; then I am da*n sure noone
esle is going to value it either.
We can address the lack of self-esteem that women feel. We can teach
people to think well of themselves and of their chosen paths in life,
[granted they *have* choices, of course].
Every woman that we reach; that we convince of her own worth, will
bring that much more esteem to women in general. One less woman will
allow herself to be treated as chattel. One less woman will allow
herself to be beaten. One less woman will allow herself to be
undervalued.
My 2 cents. FWIW.
Melinda
| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 114.1 | pointers | LEZAH::BOBBITT | we washed our hearts with laughter | Tue May 08 1990 15:03 | 15 |
| further food for thought can be found at:
womannotes-v1
142 - my mother's influence
505 - motherhood and apple pie
womannotes-v2
594 - blame the mother
mennotes
71 - working mom's
-Jody
|
| 114.2 | | GEMVAX::KOTTLER | | Tue May 08 1990 17:34 | 18 |
|
Few would dispute (or would they?) the statement that I and I think others
have made in this or in a related string, that the way our capitalist
society values anything is to give it money. However, this has not always
been true; in the past, one other way of expressing how highly we value
something has been to give it place in the religious sphere. So one might
ask, since this all started around the question of whether we *really*
value mothers and motherhood, to what extent are they represented in our
dominant religious symbols? Is there any sense in which any aspect of
motherhood is venerated in any of our religions? Do we have any religious
images of pregnancy, childbirth, mothers caring for children, etc. that
might validate such experience for real-life women? The same question might
be asked about art, and perhaps also about the media. Do we have any
positive, realistic images there telling women that their role as mothers
is taken seriously, has meaning? Or do those images again reflect males'
perceptions of what that role should be?
Dorian
|
| 114.3 | an obvious religious motherhood symbol | CADSYS::RICHARDSON | | Tue May 08 1990 18:28 | 1 |
| What about madonna-and-child images (if you are Catholic)?
|
| 114.4 | | GIAMEM::MACKINNON | ProChoice is a form of democracy | Wed May 09 1990 09:36 | 25 |
|
I do think that mother's are undervalued by society in general, but
I think it can be attributed to the fact that the government of this
nation and individual states undervalues children.
Take a look at all of the folks who care for children:
moms
dads
teachers
daycare workers
The ones who get paid to care for the children get the least amount
of money in todays society. Why is that?
Maybe the parents and educators of this great nation had better
get really angry about this current situation and DEMAND an
equal piece of the pie.
I would have loved to have gone into teaching, but I knew that
I would not be able to make enough money to support myself let
alone a child. So I decided to go into Engineering. Now what
I do now has no bearing what so ever on the children of today
or tommorow, but I can live above the poverty line. Where is
the sense?
|
| 114.6 | | ULTRA::ZURKO | a million ways to get things done. | Mon May 14 1990 16:46 | 4 |
| I was in the San Diego Art Museum last week, and I made a point to check out
the Renaissance room. There were several images of the Madonna and child. The
structural center of each seemed to be the child (Jesus).
Mez
|