Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    
    The following reply is from a member of our community who wishes
    to remain anonymous at this time.
    
                                                       Bonnie J
    
    
    ==================================================================
    
    
    I couldn't say what I wanted to say without being more graphic than I 
    feel comfortable with, and perhaps some readers will not feel 
    comfortable too, so most of my reply is hidden behind the form feed for
    those who don't want to read graphic details. 

 





    This hasn't happened to me in recent history.  The first several times 
    I had (or attempted to have) intercourse, it was painful.  It gradually
    became less so.  Thankfully, I had a wonderful first lover who very 
    gently eased his way in, not all at once, a little bit at a time.  It 
    probably took us a couple of months. 

    I also had a lover once who had a bigger than average (thick) penis.  
    I was able to accomodate him, eventually, but I was always a bit tense 
    because if he thrust too deeply or at an odd angle or if he entered too
    quickly, it hurt.  Some positions, also, were impossible.  Most of the 
    time, he was careful, but if one of us forgot, in the heat of the 
    moment, to be careful, I'd end up screaming in pain and that certainly 
    put a damper on the whole thing.  He told me it had taken a long time 
    for his ex-wife to "stretch to fit" him, too, so (not having ever 
    talked to another woman about this) I knew it wasn't just me.  He 
    wasn't particularly thrilled with his size -- he'd never been able to
    enjoy intercourse with "reckless abandon".
    
    Now (though this happens less frequently) the only time intercourse is 
    painful for me is if I allow my lover to enter me before my body is 
    ready. 

    I'm not as familiar with my body and how it responds as I'd like to be,
    (I'm working on it!) and I can't claim youth for my ignorance.  If your
    pain is due to not being ready, but if you don't really know what being
    ready is like, it might help if you and your lover didn't have 
    intercourse as the goal in your intimate encounters.  Extended periods 
    of doing other things, with the agreement that intercourse will not 
    even be attempted, would certainly be pleasurable and help both you and
    your lover learn about your body (and his, too, though this note is 
    about you).  Since you're nervous about hurting, you'd be able to relax
    and enjoy if you knew that intercourse wasn't on the agenda.

    There's a writer named Lonnie Barbach (I don't know if I have the 
    spelling right) who wrote a book about masturbation for women ("For 
    Yourself") and who also has a book for couples ("For Each Other") that
    you might find helpful, if you think your discomfort has anything to
    do with unfamiliarity with your own body.  I'd find a good gynecologist
    to talk to, also.  Maybe it's a physical problem?  It would be a good 
    idea to rule out physical causes.

    -- Anon

    
    It seems this conference is more explicit than some others I have
    participated in.  Since the base note warned of this I feel comfortable
    sharing with you my own experiences from the male perspective. I
    have experienced this problem with a number of women before I was
    married and three things seem to come up.
    
    1. With some women enjoyable sex was impossible without a lubricant
       however with a lubricant the difference was night and day!
    
    2. With most women ( That I have known ) internal lubrication seems
       to vary with sexual excitement, the more excited the more
       lubricated.  Of course if it is painful from the start it would
       be hard to reach that point.  I have always relied on the use
       of a vibrator to stimulate my partner and this seems to have
       both the desired sexual and lubricational effect.  Your male
       partner may be a little embarrassed at first ( Feelings of not
       be able to satisfy you on his own coupled with the strangeness
       of using a vibrator probably for the first time. ) however such
       feelings will vanish once he has seen the result.
    
    3. Lubrication seems to move from the inside outward so that moving
       slowly and entering while lying perpendicular will allow time
       to distribute the lubrication more effectively.  Of course if
       he uses a lubricant position becomes much less of a problem.

    If you want to continue this discussion offline then send me mail.
    Don't give up on sex, with a few aids and an understanding partner
    it can be very enjoyable even if it is a little less spontaneous.
    
        

There is in fact at least one yeast-like infection (it's not quite yeast, and
it has been discussed in V2) that can cause slight pain during intercourse. I
had it (so I can find the name if you want it). I took medication for it (I
think oral; but it could have been vaginal), and had to watch about being
re-infected via my partner, and various other cleanliness issues. Definately go
to your gyn and check on this.
	Mez

    There's also a rather common condition, I can't remember the name, in
    which the vaginal muscles clench and make coitus very painful.  If I
    recall correctly, it's stress-related (as well as stress-producing!).
    
    						=maggie 

    inre .4 =maggie
    
    it is called 'vaginisms' I believe.
    
    bj

    Right!  Vaginismus.

The problems described by the base-note author don't sound like vagisimus.
Vagisimus is uncontrollable clenching of the vaginal muscles.  The usual cause
is concious or unconcious fear or intercourse and/or intimacy, and the best way
to treat it is therapy.  Intercouse with a woman with experiencing vagisimus
would be nigh impossible, and if achieved, painful for her and quite possibly
painful for him.  If this sounds like the probelm (to the base-note author)
I would recommend seeing a sex or marriage therapist.

As others have suggested, it also might be due to a lack of lubrication.  If
this is the case, it might be because you aren't fully aroused - but it can
also occur for other reasons, and it does *not* mean that you are not
"performing" correctly.  (A lot of women think that lack of lubrication means
that they are frigid and so they are scared to admit it.  This isn't the
case.)

Also, there is something called "spectatoring" (I think) which is a fancy
term for thinking too much.  If you find yourself in a sexual situation, and
start concentrating on "Am I enjoying this?" "How am I doing?"  "Is it
going to hurt?"  "Am I responding enthusiastically enough?" rather than
just enjoying the situation, it can defeat the purpose.  It is hard to
overcome this problem, because the harder you try *not* to think about how
things are going, the more you do.  from reading the basenote, it sounds 
likely that you are scared of "failing" (by not enjoying) sex, and so you
concentrate too much on enjoying it, which means you don't enjoy it, etc...

Anyway, for either vagisimus, lack of arousal or any problems that might be
phychological (as opposed to phisiological) in origin, try sensate focus.
I talked about this back in V@, but I can't remember where.  This works well
if you have a regular partner that you love/trust.  In short, it is a technique
where partners concentrate on learning eachothers responses and pleasures,
without concentrating on genital contact or orgasm.  Sex therapists and
marriage counselors know about this technique.  There are also some books 
available.

Feel free to write me off-line if you want.

D!

    Can't endometriosus cause pain also? At any rate, a physical exam and a
    talk with your gyn is really in order. Why take a chance when a simple
    exam may be able to find the problem if it's physical and a gyn will
    know about the various forms of problems that are not. liesl

    Yep, endometriosis sure can cause it.  The kind of pain associated
    with endo can feel like something in your abdomen is getting
    "rearranged" -- and none too gently.  If your doctor suspects
    endo, this is one of the questions (s)he usually asks.
    Beth

    From "The New Our Bodies, Ourselves: A Book By and For Women" by 
    the Boston Women's Health Collective, p. 189.

    Since you say you feel almost too small or too tight, there are 
    only a few reasons in what I've extracted/paraphrased below that 
    apply to you, but it's all good info so here's the lot of it:

    Painful Intercourse: Dispareunia 

    For the following reasons: 
    
    Local Infection 
    
    Some vaginal infections -- monilia or trichomoniasis -- can be 
    present in nonacute, visually unnoticeable form.  The friction 
    [occuring from various activities] might cause the infection to 
    flare up, making you sting and itch.  A herpes sore on your 
    external genitals can make friction painful. 
    
    Local Irritation 
    
    The vagina may be irritated by the birth control foam, cream, or
    jelly you are using.  If so, try a different brand.  Some of us 
    react to the rubber in a condom or diaphragm.  Vaginal deoderant
    sprays and scented tampons can also irritate. 
   
    Insufficient Lubrication 
    
    Some possible reasons: letting/allowing your partner to enter 
    before you are ready; nervousness or tenseness; if your partner is
    using a condom (sometimes extra lubrication is required -- don't 
    use Vaseline if your partner is using a condom or you are using a 
    diaphragm, it can cause deterioration of the rubber); hormonal 
    deficiency (after childbirth, esp. if you are nursing or if you 
    have stitches, or after menopause).

    Tightness in the Vaginal Entrance 
    
    If it's the first few times you've had intercourse, your hymen ("if
    you have one") may not be stretched, yet.  They also talk about 
    tenseness and being preoccupied and say that even if you are wet 
    enough, you may not be ready and still be tight.  "So, don't rush, 
    and don't let yourself be rushed."  

    (Does "getting romantic" have to culminate in intercourse?  Since 
    you are nervous about the pain you're probably tense, so it might
    be a good idea to just forget about intercourse for now, until you
    figure out what the problem is, and only do what feels good.  If
    its a case of not really being ready, you would probably discover 
    it this way, eventually, by being able to relax and enjoy what does
    feel good, and then, sometime down the road, trying intercourse and
    finding that there is no pain.)
    
    Pain Deep in the Pelvis 
    
    Can be caused by tears in the ligaments that support the uterus
    (possible causes -- obstetrical mismanagement during childbirth, a 
    botched-up abortion, gang rape); infections of the cervix, uterus 
    and tubes (such as pelvic inflammatory disease); endometriosis; 
    cysts or tumors on the ovaries.  All of these are treatable. 
    
    Clitoral Pain
    
    Too direct stimulation or buildup of genital secretions.

    Painful Penetration: Vaginismus 
    
    Vaginismus is defined as a strong, involuntary tightening of your 
    vaginal muscles, a spasm of the outer third of the vagina.  
    Vaginismus can be the body's defense against a sexual situation you
    can't handle or don't want to be in, or it can be the result of bad
    experiences, such as rape.  There is a physical treatment.  (They 
    don't say what, but recommend a book.  If you want the book title 
    and author, respond here or send me mail and I'll look it up.)  
    They also recommend therapy/counselling.
    
    The section ends with a recommendation to get a good gynecological
    exam to find out if the pain is due to a physical cause.  They 
    recommend that you enlist the help of friends or a local women's 
    group to find a sympathetic and competent nurse-midwife or 
    physician.  (I don't have a gynecologist, so I can't recommend one
    to you.  If you don't have one that you feel confident can help
    you, and who you are comfortable talking to about this, let us know
    where you are located, and/or how far you are willing to travel, or
    which HMO you belong to, and perhaps one of the other readers will 
    be able to recommend one.) 

    Hope this helps!

    CQ

>    Painful Penetration: Vaginismus 
    
(graphic description follows)

>...
    experiences, such as rape.  There is a physical treatment.  (They 
    don't say what, but recommend a book.  If you want the book title 
    and author, respond here or send me mail and I'll look it up.)  
    They also recommend therapy/counselling.


The physical treatment isn't drugs or surgery - it is slow desensitization,
basically.  It involves insertion of thin rods in to the vagina, and as you get
used to  them being there, the muscles will relax, and thicker and thicker rods
are inserted, gradually getting the body to accept penetration without the
vaginal contractions that are vagisimus.  The idea is that no pain will lead to
no fear, with time.

D!

    It could also be the men you've been making love with have been
    unusually large, while you may be fairly small.  A size mismatch may
    have occurred.  
    
    -Jody
    

    I have the worst problem with this issue.  You might have (like me),
    lots of adhesions from infection or scarring from surgery that cause
    the pain.  Or else your ovulation cycle is like mine and instead of the
    eggs breaking and being absorbed into the body, they form cysts
    instead, which make everything very painful until they finally break or
    have to be surgically removed.
    
    I highly suggest that you see an OB-GYN asap.  Maybe he/she can help
    you with this mystery.  Unfortunately, my condition is such that I'll
    always have to deal with it.  I just grin and bear it and thank god
    that Sean is understanding and compassionate!
    
    Good luck!   Tammi

    Are you on the pill?  I took the pill for several years and felt rather
    "dry" for most of the time I took it (kinda put a damper on the 'sexual
    freedom' aspect).  I never got a straight answer from my gyn if the
    pill could be causing it, but didn't have any other problems that could
    so I came to my own conclusion.  A few months after I stopped taking
    the pill I noticed that things felt a little easier (same partner the
    whole time) and got progressively better with time (it's been about
    five years since I stopped the pill).  If you do find that you need a
    little extra lubrication, be sure to use one that was made for that
    purpose (like ky-jelly) so you don't end up with more trouble.
    	Conni

    A friend of mine had this problem , her's was stress related.
    She solved the problem by drinking a little alcohol to relax.
    (This was only temporary, after a period of time she was not so
    nervous about sex)

    After my first baby was born, intercourse was extremely painful
    for months.  After my second baby, no problems (then or since, and
    he's nearly 21).  I suspect that the episiotomy (sp?) repair after
    my first-born was taken at least one stitch too far.  I don't know if
    you've had any children vaginally, but thought I might as well mention
    this possibility.  For the record, I don't believe it's necessary
    to have a second baby to fix the problem!  :)  I had my first, second,
    and third children because I wanted to.
    
    aq
    

    There is an over-the-counter product called REPLENS to use for dryness. 
    I used it when I was nursing after the birth of my baby.
    
    It's *quite* expensive...about $18 a month, but worth it if your pain
    is caused by dryness.  It comes in suppositories that you are supposed
    to use 3 times a week.  CVS carries it in New England.
    
    judy 

I don't understand this discussion re:lubricants. What is the different 
between these strangly named lubricants and the classic KY, or the more
recent "hig-teh" lubricants such as Probe and Astroglide?

Are these things that you use regularly, not at the time but sex, but just
in general, to keep you lubricated?  Or that you apply at the time of sex,
such as KY?

D!

>My friend says she would *never* use K-Y as a lubricant.  "Eugh!" was
>basically her reaction.

Actually I agree with her. When I am using lubricant for sexual purposes,
I use substances designed for that specific purpose.  My favorite is
Astroglide, but I also like Probe. These very useful and wonderful products
are, unfortunately, only sold as "sex products" in adult "bookstores" and
mailorder houses, and whatnot. Too bad, because I think they are wonderful
and would be very useful to a lot of people who would never be caught dead
in a sleazy bookshop in the combat zone.

(Astroglide was designed to be as much like natural vaginal lubrication
as possible, and I think it succeeds quite well.  Also it is virtually
tasteless, odorless and colorless, and easily water-soluble.  It also dries
out a lot less than KY.)

D!

[PS: For those in the Boston area, Little Shop of Horrors on Huntington Ave
in Copley Square sells Astroglide, Probe and For-Play, and you don't have to
deal with the combat zone that way. I also know of an *e-mail* mail order
supplier.  Rah rah internet! :-) ]

    Re. 18
    
    Another vote for Albolene Liquifying Cleanser.  It's water soluable,
    colorless, odorless, tasteless, won't stain, and ve-ry slipp-e-ry!
    Oh yeah, it's also good for removing makeup, so you can leave it out
    and not be embarrassed!

    No I don't sell the stuff.  I just think it's GREAT!

    Richard