Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    No takers? :-( 
    
    Expand/rewrite/forget it?
    
    Ad

    Ad:  I've been thinking about this.  Give me until tomorrow.
    
    Briana

    Still thinking here too.  
    
    In the meantime, see also:
    
    Womannotes-V1
    369 - who is not a feminist?
    
    womannotes-v2
    475 - men as feminists
    
    -Jody
    

    Thanks Jody... Get Notes job away ;-)
    
    I'm not impatient, just wanted to know whether there was any interest
    in the topic (well I'm interested still but that's speaking for
    myself). I also think there might be an ongoing interest since there
    will no doubt be an evolution in the ideas about this, which was
    another reason why I entered it. I'll have a look at the v1/v2 notes
    meanwhile...
    
    Ad

    What can men do?  Oh, tons and tons of active things.    Most of them
    are not focused on women alone, but upon the general population.
    
    Probably the most fundamental and the easiest to implement would be to
    increase one's awareness of the inequities and make a call in
    situations where one sees them being manifested.  This, of course,
    promotes equality for all.
    
    _Really_ get a feeling for what a lot of women face by volunteering or
    visiting a domestic violence outreach program. Obviously, not only
    women are concerned, but they consitute the vast majority of the clients
    at this time.
    
    Not matter where one comes down on the issue of abortion and family
    planning, visit or volunteer at a family planning center to find out
    what the conflicts and concerns are on the front lines from the actual
    people facing these conflicts and concerns.
    
    Be an involved and responsible person in a childs life, especially if
    one is a parent.
    
    Think about the things that you do not do.  Then think of what your life
    would like be if these things weren't done by anyone.  If you would
    miss these things, learn to value them and the person who does them.
    
      Ann

    Pardon if the following has made any incorrect assumptions about anyone
    reading this, and if they feel that it does not or cannot apply to them
    they are to assume it was not written about or for their consumption.
    
    I think the most valuable thing you can do is try to put yourselves in
    our shoes mentally whenever you sense a clash of values, opinions,
    attitudes, or assumptions.  See if you can sense the difference that
    created the mismatch, and see if you can understand how the woman is
    thinking/feeling/sensing/intuiting.  Then, give her opinion and her
    feelings nearly as much credence as yours in your own mind for a moment.  
    Swim in her opinion and see how it feels, feel what is important to
    her, feel what she needs, feel why she is saying what she is.  Embrace
    her way of being in your mind, and try to do so without any
    preconceptions of her, or preconceptions of women in general.  
    Come back to yourself after this and then re-evaluate your thoughts on
    the subject.  After doing this a number of times, perhaps you will
    learn what is important to women, what women know, what they are
    uncertain of, what they fear, what is valuable to them, and how their
    communication style may differ from yours.  
    
    Learn empathy with women, and if you can try to learn it from some of
    them.  Ask them how they know when something is wrong or right, ask
    them how they feel when something works or doesn't, ask them about
    their needs and wishes, ask them about their values.  And if they
    answer - REALLY LISTEN.  Hear what she is saying, feel what she is
    saying, give it complete 100% credence in your mind, and 100% of your
    attention.  Get together with womenfriends and share with them your
    interests - not all may be willing to help, but some may be.
    
    Look at the women in your life, the ones who may be supporting you or
    helping you through each day, and really look at what they do for you. 
    REALLY SEE everything they do for you, and realize that sometimes they
    do it without your even asking.  And without praise.  And without
    appreciation.  Then look at what you do for them.  Is there a balance? 
    Are they requesting things that you do not provide?  If not why?
    
    Value women's strengths and abilities.  But also notice what society
    says about women.  How it makes them feel.  Imagine being afraid
    walking alone on a dark night.  Imagine getting paid less just because
    of your gender.  Imagine having someone look right through you and not
    listen to your technical presentation because of your gender.  
    Really look at their frame of reference (reading "Women's Reality" is a
    good eye-opener - I think it's by Anne Schaef?).  Take off your
    preconcpetions and your foundation and step around it into the wide
    field of the reality of others.  
    
    And this is only the beginning.
    
    -Jody
    
    

    I agree with Jody in that I feel that starting at home and dealing
    with the women in your own life would be good.  How do you treat
    the women in your life.  Do you value them?  How are they treated
    outside of your home.  Is there something that you can do about
    it if they are not valued or discrimated against?  I think if everyone
    made a little effort to think differently about women that changes
    will occur.
    
    
    Denise

    How do I treat the women in my life? The way they want to be treated,
    although I hate it when they refuse "old fashioned" politeness like
    opening doors for them etc.
    And if my wife is not valued or discriminated against, there's very
    little I can do, because she's quite capable of dealing with it
    herself.
    
    Charles

    How about any other women in your life that would need some sort
    of support from you? Do you support the decisions that your wife
    may make in dealing with the discrimation that she may come up against?
    
    My question is can men feel comfortable about stepping in and agreeing
    with thier wives or daughters or whomever that, yes, I support their
    fighting discrimation or dealing with the particular issue.  And
    also responding
    to the issue as I don't like what you have done to the women in
    my life.         
                   
    
    Denise
    
    
    

    Hmm, maybe apolitical male feminists aren't so grisly after all...
    
    Nah... I can't accept that... (: >,)
    
    Seriously though, one of the reasons I'm no good at political work is
    getting too disgustipated by the frequent gaps between theory and
    personal practice, particularly among men.  (Another is the strange
    bedfellows principle, in which I'm asked to support hot buttons like
    stereotyping or censorship for the sake of objectives I believe in.) 
    But, on those brief occasions that I manage to consider life outside my
    immediate circle, it seems unlikely that THAT many gains can be made by
    individuals without the help of ugly, compromising, irritating,
    organized political action. 
    
    Even if you (unlike me) can say that "my children are being raised to
    make a better world", surely SOMEONE eventually has to take action that
    has repercussions outside the realm of family and acquaintances. 
    Right?
    
    Ray

    
    
    re.6 
    
    If you want to volunteer at a battered women's shelter, most have
    outreach programs in which you can take the children out for a
    Saturday or Sunday.  Imagine the price of not getting beat up is
    that you have to be homeless and still have small children to 
    care for!
    
    Taking a stand against discrimination and stereotyping would be
    a good way to start as well.  I disagree with one of the replies
    about the husband not being able help the wife against discrimination,
    my wife knows that I will do what ever it takes to support her in
    any fight.  Make a resolution not to allow any stereotypical remarks
    go unchallenged in your presence and you will begin to see how much
    our culture is biased against women.
    
    One of the hardest things for a man to do in supporting a woman
    is to be able to give a woman 100% support when she is clearly
    better than you are at something.  I learned this during a course
    I took where each day started with a mile long run where one of
    the rules was to mentally (In your thoughts as well as words and
    actions) support everyone on the run 100%.  My thoughts during the
    run astounded me!  Even though I knew intellectually that there
    would be women who were better runners than me I found it difficult 
    to encourage the women who passed me.  Worse than that I found myself
    mentally patronizing the women that I passed.  This was a
    particularly valuable lesson about myself for work.

    re .12
    
    For some people, though, it does take some practice to be able
    to find the line between "supporting her [or him] 100% in any
    fight" and "taking over and running the fight myself".  This
    is particularly true if you're naturally a take-charge kind of
    person.
    
    I'm one, so is my husband.  A useful rule of thumb for us has been,
    "If the other person became involved that way for me, would I feel
    as though I had an ally, or would I feel embarrassed as though mamma/
    daddy stepped in to protect me?"  
    
    Beth

    I'd meant to reply to this topic long ago. Well it's not too late.
    
    Either feminism is the search and struggle for true equality for men
    and women, or it is a struggle to improve women's position and rights
    in all areas where they lag behind men.
    
    These two positions are VERY different, and it seems to me that .0 and
    most of the replies seem to assume the second definition of feminism.
    
    I support the former, and I OPPOSE the latter. The former is a search
    for equality - it says that where men have privilege and advantage over
    women, we should struggle to give women equal advantage, and in that it
    is like the second definition. The other side of the coin though, is
    that where women enjoy privilege and advantage over men, we should
    struggle to give men equal advantage. That is the crucial second piece
    that many people seem to miss. Some people are so annoyed by that
    omission that they call themselves "humanists" or some other phrase to
    distinguish the first kind of feminism from the second.
    
    I see no need to draw any such distinction. It is clear to me that
    feminism is the first thing, and the second thing is a warped and
    distorted version of true feminism. There is no need to give it a name,
    because just a few moments thought should convince you that it is
    impossible to acheive women's rights without at the same time achieving
    men's rights. Some may disagree, but for the purposes of my note I will
    refer to the first position as "Feminism".
    
    What then, is the "male role in feminism"? The answer is now simple.
    Men's role in feminism is to work for the equality of men and women.
    There is no need for men to take a passive role rather than an active
    one. Men should be equal partners in the feminist movement. To the
    degree that there are many more areas that women are lacking rights in,
    the struggle will be mostly to get women the rights they have been
    denied. Men should full participate in this struggle. There are areas
    in which men are traditionally denied rights simply because they are
    men, and feminst women should be fighting to get men those rights.
    
    This is NOT to say that men should take over and run the feminist
    movement. That would be absurd, and non-feminist in a real and
    fundamental way. They should be partners - equal partners - in the
    struggle for equality. I think it natural that there will be more women
    feminists, since after all women suffer more from sexist
    discrimination. This seems to naturally imply that there will be more
    women as feminist leaders and organizers, but to imply that men should
    somehow take a backseat, or that they are in some sense second class
    feminists promotes the same sexist attitudes we should be fighting to
    abolish.
    
    [Well, it's my turn to change Kai... gotta go! ;-)]
    
    	-- Charles

    Well, someone suggested that I start this topic, but I find that it's
    already here. I'm still defining my role in feminism. I'm sorta new to
    all this. Yeah, I know, I'm 38 years old and lived through the
    movement. I just never had it affect me so much as when I started
    reading this file. Trying to hold a job, raise a family and all. I'm
    still working on raising my family, but I have more time to devote to
    causes now. I sure there are others equally important and I'll support
    them also. It's just that this one seems paramount to me right now.
    Maybe in 10 years I'll have another at the forefront that needs
    immediate attention. 
    
    Anyway, I see my role as one of support on a personal and on a
    political level. This is not unconditional support. I couldn't support
    any legislation that while it would help women, would detract from
    another group or individual. On a personal level, I see it as treating
    everyone, including women as being just as capable as men and allowing
    them to show it. Treating them with respect where it's required, and
    being sensitive enough to know when to butt out when asked. Even more
    important to me is recognizing when someone can do the job better then
    I can, and requesting their help and not get in their way while they go
    about doing whatever it is the task calls for. And being ready to give
    support, knowledge, and understanding when asked for it. It also means
    recognizing where I can help and offering the assistance but not
    forcing it on someone. From little things such as lifting the 80 lb box
    for someone who is supposed to be my equal but is obviously physically
    weaker then myself and not making a big deal out of it, to supporting
    legislation that will work towards ending discrimination in all its
    forms. 
    
    This should be done for all people. I've chosen the Women's Movement
    because I can sort of identify with it. I've got a mother, sister,
    daughter, and exwife. I don't want any of them to be held back from
    anything they want because of their sex. 
    
    Just a few thoughts on a Saturday before I start work.
    
    Phil