Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    My personal feeling is that some men feel very threatened by women when
    they start *fighting* back. They are afraid that given half a chance
    that women in general will treat men as horribly as men in general have
    treated women over the years of humanity's stay on earth.

    We have a lot of anger to let out. That doesn't mean we hate men as
    individuals but we may at times hate the position men have put us into.
    But we can't even let off a little steam without being jumped on
    and browbeaten. We don't have the *right* to make any slips at all
    without having it shoved into our faces. Remember the scene in that
    Cagney movie where he shoves the grapfruit into the woman's face.
    That's how some of this makes me (personally, not speaking for anyone
    else or women in general) feel.

    edp says this is only ones and zeros parading across a screen but *I*
    feel emotion in much of what is written. And the emotion I feel is
    sometimes rage, to such a point that if that person was in front of me
    I'd probably wilt and ruin away. As if anyone in this file had kept a
    man (any man) from a good job or equal opportunity.

    I've been physically threatened by males enough times that male
    violence seems all too real to me. Just recently in a business meeting
    a man jumped up and started pounding on the table and yelling at the
    folks in my group. I've NEVER been in a situation in a group of women
    where that happened. FWIW, this man was shorter than me.

    No, I do not believe men are "inherently" violent, but they are
    culturally violent and when you are on the recieving end that's a small
    distinction. I don't think only men are violent either but women are
    trained from birth to not be violent. That this too is starting to
    break down is probably a sad case for humans. If we are both equally
    violent we are probably doomed.

    As for reasons, anthropologists have many explainations of this. I
    posted one by Marvin Harris back in V2. Mens' greater size and women's
    child bearing made men the better choice for warfare. You can lose a
    lot of males before the birth rate has to suffer. They are expendable.
    Lose your women and you become extinct. Cultural patterns die hard.

    I would say to you men who think we hate you not to worry, we love you.
    But that's not very reassuring, many of your kind say that to us then
    beat and rape us because we were not *good* or we made you do it or
    just because it was a bad day. So just say we (most of us) don't want a
    world without men, we want to learn to live together. You just have to
    cut us a little slack, we're new at this equality game ourselves. liesl

    Nothing.
    
    I would prefer that we keep it that way.

	I would be much more interested in hearing why men think
	that women hate them.  I would also like to hear from
	non-violent men as to why they feel antsy about discussing
	male violence towards women?

	_peggy
		(-)
		 |
			This is of interest to women, I have
			heard women's side before in this file
			let's hear some of the "vocal" male
			side.

    
    Peggy,
    
    	I am new to this conference so I don't know if the men in it
    are reluctant to discuss male violence toward women or if you were
    referring to men in general.  However be that as it may I have a
    few opinions on the subject.  My disclaimer is that I can only speak
    for myself as I only have direct experience with myself.
    
    	I believe that some of violent behavior is learned and some
    of it is genetically inherited.  I believe that the genetic part
    may run deeper in certain family lines however I would regard this
    component as fairly homogeneous within the male population.
    
    	I would break the learned part into two categories, the first
    would be learned or inherited from the prevailing culture and the
    second is directly learned from individual contacts.
    
    	Cultural learning comes from observing what is acceptable in
    society in general.  Therefore we find that the violence that a
    rapist uses on the victim is not acceptable however the victim can
    use violence in self-defense which we find acceptable.  My opinion
    is that cultural learning is secondary and will only be used to
    reinforce primary learning or used in the absence of strong primary
    learning.
    
    	Direct learning comes from the interaction of individuals such
    as parent-child or siblings.  This leads to the conclusion that
    an abused child is more likely to grow up with a violent personality.
    
    	The actual violence needs to be broken down into three areas;
    Thoughts, Words, and Actions.
    
    Actions  - This is the most visible and dangerous form of violence.
               It can have a severe and lasting effect even when applied
               over a short duration.
    
    Words    - This form of violence can be as damaging as actions however
               it takes longer.  This is the form of violence that most
               people are exposed to.  This form also creates a climate
               for action type violence.  This also encompasses the forms
               of media which degrade others.
    
    Thoughts - In this form the violence need not affect or be visible
               to anyone except the violent individual.  This form is one
               which is most shaped by the first two and is under the
               least control by the violent individual.  Most people
               assume that they can or should be able to control their
               thoughts.  I would submit that individuals have little
               control over what they think.
    
    Sorry to be so long winded however you need the background to understand
    my next remarks.  I am a violent person who has never committed a
    violent act.  I learned violence from abuse I suffered as a child
    and I will probably never be free of violent thoughts.  Please do
    not attempt to console or pity me as I long ago learned to deal with
    the violent thoughts which enter my head.  I also learned self-defense and
    put an end to the abuse. ( I choose not to share with you the name
    or relationship of my abuser as it is irrelevant to this reply.)
    
    I learned a few important
    lessons;
    
    1. I am not responsible for my violent thoughts.  If I could stop
       them I would but they come of their own violation.  They will
       probably come for the rest of my life.
    
    2. I do not have to act out or speak any of these thoughts.
    
    3. These thoughts do not make me a bad person unless I speak them
       or act upon them.
 
    4. If I do not speak them or act on them then I will not pass them
       along to my children or any other human being.  This is critical
       because the chain of violence can be broken but it must be 
       a conscious effort.
   
    	My opinion is that all men and women have violent thoughts and
    that they make the mistake of assuming that violent thoughts are equivalent
    to or on a scale with violent words and actions.  They are not, but
    such a belief could cause a man to be reluctant to discuss violence
    toward women.  A man might say that since he has had violent thoughts
    about women, thoughts about rape or dominating women for example,
    that he is only slightly better than one who acts on those thoughts.
    Each man who condemns violence lives with the idea that has had such
    thoughts and might be a hypocrite for condemning what he has thought
    about.
    
    Many people will find this discussion very uncomfortable because
    it shows that actions and words need not be in line with thoughts
    which would make judging people far more difficult.  It also raises
    the thought that there is no such thing as a non-violent man just
    men who do not perform violent acts or words because they believe
    that they are wrong.  I also would not exclude women from having
    violent thoughts.
    
    I hope that this reply will generate a discussion about this subject.
    I am interested in what other think.  Do you have violent thoughts?
    Can you admit to them?   
    

In addition to 93.8 (The Doctah):

   How can anyone not interpret questions like "why do men deny that
being male is the cause of certain problems" to mean that a "man bad"
theory is being promoted?

                                            -Robert Brown III

Why 'man bad'?

First, at the risk of triggering every warning light and bell, my reaction to
the question is one of profound irritation.

It seems that the logic goes something like:

Given:  Society's norms favour men.
Given:  Women reject said societal norms.
Therefore:  Men are bad.

Excuse me?

Even the fleshed out version:

Given:  Society's norms favour men
Given:  Some men fight hard to maintain this advantage
Given:  Women reject said societal norms and are mad as hell that
	anyone would fight to preserve them.
Therefore: Women say, 'Men are bad.'

...still has a few gaps one could drive a truck through.

I once asked Rick why he reacts defensively to my raving about the inequities
inherent in the system.  After some thought, he said that he feels guilty that
people _automatically_ take him more seriously and he hates to feel guilty.
Therefore he lashes out at me, even though he _knows_ that I don't think he's
at fault.

Rick's mother does counselling in a domestic violence crisis center.  She has
directed a substantial amount of anger at particular men.  Rick has often walked
away when she raved at the injustices perpetrated.  When she asked him why, he
said that it was because she was angry at men...yes he understood that she was
not angry at Men [the group], but that the situation where man after man had
done something awful that he was powerless to prevent made him feel ashamed.

Personally, I cannot connect with why this gentle, caring man could even
conceive of guilt or shame in these situations; but I can whole-heartedly
identify with resenting the person who triggered them.

  Ann

    Fear.  That is what causes men to deny that simply being male causes
    them to be violent.  Or could cause them to be violent.  Of course it
    would resulet in denial.  They are male, they cannot change that.  If
    being male means being violent (to whatever degree) wouldn't YOU deny
    it?
    
    I can remember when it was so popular to conclude that a woman could
    NEVER be President because she has these hormones that course through
    her veins that every month throw her into an extreme state of complete
    EMOTIONAL instability that would render her completely useless in times
    of crises.  I denied it, as did most women I know.  Not only was it
    nonsensical, there was nothing  I could do to dhange the fact that I
    was female.
    
    So, If being male = being violent, I can see why the denial would
    surface.
    
    As for the "man bad" theory I can honestly say I don't know what you
    mean.
    

    Yes, I have violent thoughts.  Sometimes real violent towards my
    ex.  I've thought in my head of various ways to bring on his death.
     I enjoy violent movies, not the rape scene ones but mostly gun
    battles and painful death movies.  I think the movies are just a
    way to let out some fantasies.  I don't plan to carry out this violent
    thoughts of mine.  They're just fun to think about.  I remember
    telling this guy how I enjoyed violent movies.  He thought I was
    totally wierd.  Difference is my violent tendencies stay tucked
    away in my own private mind and have never left.  Except for the
    time I pounded a mouse into the ground with a broomstick.  I don't
    know what came over me.