Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    
    re:.1
    i have always been *proud* to have my entries 'associated' with this
    conference.
    

Referencing .2, EDP:

   I should think that the answer to your question should be obvious:

   Here, it appears to depend on who is doing the "stopping".

                                                   -Robert Brown III

I must of need make an exit for a time.  Other demands on my time are
whispering too loudly to ignore. 

Upon my exit, I would like to thank this community for the challenges and
experiences I have met in the meeting (or clashing) of the minds.  I have
broadened myself as a result and for this I am grateful.  I have even learned a
few things, even though I am aware that the conference does not exist for my
education, thank you very much. ;-)

I usually stuck to a few notes of interest, sometimes tried to provide a
lighter side to some issues, and more often than not offered an alternate
opinion; always to provide balance, never to cause trouble.

My parting comments on these issues (in no particular order):

Barbara Bush at Wellesley College:
  Those who said BB was chosen because of her husband's fame are correct.

Pornography:
  Whether you call it erotica or pornography, people have their personal limits
  to what they think is acceptable behavior.  A consensus was not reached and I
  do not think one can be reached on what is unacceptable that would suit even
  a majority of respondents.  So what is to be done?  Don't tread on my right
  to draw my personal line of erotica/pornography and I won't tread on yours. I
  do think though that if my pornography includes the -debasing of others- (not
  defined on purpose), then I am culpable to society.  Members of society are
  responsible to the society in which they live, must answer to societal
  powers, or they are responsible for shaping the society.  In any case, we
  shape society.  How would you have it?

FWO:
  When there is a sign on the door of a rest room that states "Ladies"
  or "Women," I do not demand to sit on their toilet.  I think FWO is a
  reasonable courtesy (*not granted* by men but *graciously observed* by men).  

Feminist Humor:
  Uses Womannotes as a reason to support male-bashing.  Some were funny,
  though.

Humor about Women:
  This was just started but it seems to be another "get even" scheme.  I don't
  think it is productive from either gender.

Abortion Concerns:
  Thanks for a well-mannered, thoughtful discussion without the flames.
  To me, it was an example of how people with divergent views can discuss
  a deeply-felt issue.

Male-dominated society and Feminism:
  I have come to realize that feminism is not a single theme but a chorus,
  sometimes harmonious and sometimes discordant.  Many feminists with whom
  I have become acquainted through this conference are concerned with
  creating equilibrium in this male-dominated society; some are concerned
  with the inversion of the male-dominated society.  I think that inversionism
  is as oppressive and destructive as the current set of circumstances.

  I think it would be beneficial to recognize the homogeneity of personhood and
  the  diversity of gender, each generating strengths and talents of their own.
  Womannotes is an excellent forum for promoting the value of gender,
  specifically geared for the support of women, and should continue to be a
  female-dominated subculture.  It is my opinion that these ideals can be
  achieved with or despite the presence of males in the conference.

Pregnancy and Bitchiness:
  I think the chemical changes [not so] merely magnifies a personality that is 
  already there.  For some, when the mood strikes, the irritation is too great
  to deal with.  Read this: pregnancy doesn't always, but it may be a 
  significant contributor.

  To those of you who are pregnant, enjoy it.  It was wonderful for us our four
  times.  And I do think that attitudes at this time affect the child after
  birth.

Language:
  Some of the more interesting things happen in the English language; or 
  perhaps I should say the American language.  Am am disinclined to believe,
  though, that dictionaries (as well as some other issues throughout the
  conference; for example, shaving one's legs) are grand conspiracies of the
  patriarchy to continue the subordination of women on the planet.  

  Society may indeed be male-dominated but I do not think it was a result of
  some group of men getting together saying, "Fellas, we're going to lose  [we
  need to get] power if we don't do something quick.  Hey, I know!  Let's start
  up a patriarchal religion and have men write the dictionaries and history
  books.  And let's tell women to scrape the hair off their legs.  With a
  number of other beauty rules and regulations, that ought to do it."

God/Goddess Worship:
  Thank you, sincerely, for the education.  I believe everyone has a right to
  choose what they believe.  I'll leave my comments there.

Rathole:
  A great place to have some fun, and a very useful place if people would
  use it more often.

Visual Anonymity of Noting:

  To me, most of you are two-dimensional words on my screen; ideas to be
  weighed in the balance of reason.  Intent and expressions are more often
  [incorrectly] inferred by the reader than implied by the writer.  In some
  cases, it does cause misunderstandings, especially when the intent of notes
  are presupposed, based on the contributor.

If you feel the need to respond to any of these *opinions*, send mail.  I'll be
glad to exchange ideas with you.  =wn= is too tempting to leave in my notes
list; I'll have to remove it for the time being.

I am grateful for the new acquaintances made here, even to those whose 
viewpoint directly conflicted with my own.  I appreciate the respect from 
some of you who treated me nicely even if you shook your heads and thought 
my head was screwed on funny.  I trust that I have treated you nicely even
when I felt that your head(s) were screwed on funny.  

I'm not slamming any doors.  Just closing the screen door for a while.

                                Mark Metcalfe

P.S.     :-) 8^) %^) ;-) :-b (and I love these faces)

Well, folks, the time has arrived.  This is my last full day at DEC before 
heading off into the great yonder. (Yeah, I know, you thought you *never* 
get rid of me, huh?)  Next week at this time I shall be happily on a 
mountain in Vermont with 250 other writers attending the 65th Bread Loaf 
Writers' Conference.  Any screams of agony you hear from the north will be 
my ego being shredded by my colleagues.  After that, it will be time to 
head back to Dartmouth for my senior year to get my BA in English 
Literature and Creative Writing...after that, grad school...somewhere.

I've truly enjoyed being a part of this community (even if I am a loud 
mouth!).  Apart from some of my college experiences these have been some 
of the best and most thought provoking discussions I've ever had.  Some 
final points... (did you think I wouldn't? ;-)

* On Gun Control...I'm still sticking with 83.121 and 83.153 with the 
understanding that a *lot* of things in society have to change as well.  
Since so many things are interconnected it is difficult to address one 
issue without dragging in a load of others....so I'm a revisionist at
heart...get me going and everything leads back to education.

* On Outrageous Acts of Social Commentary...she's not a singer.  The joke 
backfired.  Life's rough, ain't it? I do have to wonder if, as someone said
 she had been 5' something, blonde and "just sexy as all git out" would 
anyone have bothered to make a fuss and denounce her?

* On the Mapplethorpe exhibit...I'll just have to judge for myself when I 
go, won't I?

* On Male Bonding...sure, there is positive stuff in there, but far too 
often it is preceeded by plainly misogynyst, hateful and/or destructive 
behavior.  There ought to be a way to raise men so they don't feel 
obligated to go through all of that "yuck" just to support each other. 

* On Men Defining Women...face it, guys, we've had it pretty good for the 
past couple of thousand years.  The cry "Pan is dead!" swept aside the 
nature based religions and gave rise to the Almighty Patriarchy and we 
men (let me qualify: middle class white men for the most part) have been 
making off with the stick the carrot and the whole bloody cart ever since.  
Men have been telling women for millenia what they should think, how they 
should act, what jobs they are good for and how they should use their 
bodies.  Well, frankly, it is time for us to shut up on those issues and 
*listen* to our sisters because we've had them listening to *us* for far too 
long. That's why women are in a much better position to surmise about men 
than men are to surmise about women -- men have dominated communication so 
is it any wonder that many women feel they already know male needs, 
desires, habits, attitudes, etc while at the same time not believing that 
most men know their similar concerns?  I know most of us reading this file
are not actively sexists, but saying "Oh, hey, wait it wasn't *me*" does 
not change the fact that most have us have benefited from being men...
if we're aware of that, we can interact with women and listen, really 
*listen* to their concerns better.

However you slice my beliefs, they seem to come back as educational issues. 
So much of what happens to adversely effect women is the result of 
socialization from homes, religions and schools.  I really think the 
schools could make a stand to counter negative aspects from some of our 
socialization so we can have a world with people who happen to be born as 
women and men instead of born that way and then crammed into gender roles 
by negative socialization...
    
    Again, I want to thank all of you for challenging, listening, advising
    and being a great group of people with whom to interact...
    
In case anyone wants to keep yelling at me [ ;-) ], the network pathway to 
Dartmouth looks like this:

DECWRL::"[email protected]"

peace, love and chocolate chip cookies,

Daniel

As most of you probably know, I'm going on leave from co-moding for two years
(see 1.*) while I pursue my SM at MIT (Master's in Industry program) on DEC's
GEEP program. I've pretty much run down all my co-mod committments. Jody has
taken the current crop of t-shirts (thanx Jody!), I have bit my tongue (or is
it my fingers?) and resisted sending out anymore mail about the abortion topic
(and if it blows up, I'll not join in; the co-mods have a full history of how
I've moderated it). Maggie will change the SHOW MOD display to indicate I'm on
leave, and that I shouldn't be sent mail of an official nature. I'll still
check into my DEC accounts (I _will_ be a DEC employee), but a timely response
is not guaranteed, and an official response is an explicit non-goal.

Take care, and be good to the co-mods. It's an unpleasant thankless job (that
is a generality; we all know there are exception :-), and every bit of
supportive mail, every supportive note, whether explicitly acknowledged or
not, lends energy and peace to the staff.

	Mez

    The world will be a strange place for the next 745 days.

    you got it =maggie
    
    Mez, love you, and I'll miss you lots, (and these aren't tears, 
    my glasses are cloudy)
    
    Hugs! and best wishes
    
    Bonnie
    
    (and happy 30th :-) )

    
    
    Mez,
    
    Never stray far from home.  You'll be missed, drop in when you can.
    	
    Go Knock em dead,
    
    a-
    

    H E Y   M I K E
    
    H E Y   M I K E
    
    H E Y   M K K E
    
    HEY MIKE, HEY MIKE HEY MIKE
    
    WAIT FOR me, wait for me
    

    I'm out of here for a while.  I can get this at my parent's house
    
    I am sorry to anyone who has felt slighted by any of my recent notes; I
    wish I could please everyone.
    
    E Grace, who_should_have_known_better_than_to_be_proud_of_herself.

    
    Re -1
    I'm sorry to hear that E Grace....
    Hope we can welcome you back soon.
    
    'gail
    

Monday, I will be in another situation -- new job, new lots of stuff.

It's what I worked so hard for and I'm happy to have earned this chance. But as
with most things in life, it means leaving behind some of the things I hold dear
-- if only temporarily.

I will still be at DEC, and with good fortune will return to =wn= --- but even 
if I do not I will probably never lose the connection and the community that I 
carry with me.

'may the sun shine warm upon your face[s] ...'

  Annie

    Best Wishes to you, Annie, and congratulations!
    
    Hasta Luego,
    Barb

I'm outta here for a while..I am 99.9% read only.  I've learned a great
deal from this conference and I find it a very valuable resource.  Perhaps
there is something wrong with me that I don't find things that offend me,
yes there are things that may annoy me, perhaps anger me, but that's life.
I accept it.  Out in the world when I find things that annoy or anger me,
or people who do the same I don't take them to the "authorities", I may
say something about it, but let it roll off.  There are far more important
things to do with my life than worry about what someone says to or about or
even remotely relating to me.   

And it seems that I spend more time next unseening through complaints and
accusations than I do learning any more.  


Maybe things will calm down later and this conference can be what it has 
been to me in the past..a place to learn about women, issues relating to
women and share where I can.


Jim

    Will be on vacation for two weeks, see y'all on the 27th.

    Best of luck, Ann. I always meant to ask you about your choice
    of personal name and to explore its connection with our apparently
    mutual heritage.
    
    Eileen
    

    
    you can find me in the flotation tank.
    

    checking out...
    

    Because of another NOTESFILE, I no longer feel at all comfortable with
    NOTES. A number of people use more then one of the same files I use. I
    will be leaving all files now and deleteing them from my notebook and
    the whole notebook ingeneral. I thank you all and say goodbye. It
    wasn't you or them it's me. I need time away. I won't be at the party
    and I had ordered 15 copies of the Spit Brook Women's concert. I paid
    for them, the check has been cashed, but no tapes. If someone wants to
    check into it they can have the tapes. I was going to offer them in
    here for free to those who want one but can't get it. But I won't be
    here.
    
    Thank you all and goodbye.
    
    Phil

    
    
    Phil,
    
    If I'm not too late (and to anyone else who ordered tapes but didn't
    get them yet).  The copies were just completed and mailed out this
    week.  I just got mine yesterday, and I believe we have tracked down
    your (Phil's) copies and will get them to you asap.
    
    I've needed to take a break from this file and others sometimes, too.
    Hope you'll be back when you're ready (and in time for the party?)
    
    Justine
           

    Ok folks. Here is where he makes a real fool out of himself. No smiley
    face. I have to swallow my pride and please ask your forgivness. Last
    week, when I said I was signing out of all files, well I was wrong. the
    people of the file I had a difference with and the people of this file,
    I love you all to much to leave. I thank all of you who wrote to me and
    asked me to stay, it really help. It's hard to write this (teary eyed,
    no really, a man is crying, almost). To much synchronicity this
    weekend. The LA Law episode, buying a book called Women. The story of
    the lives of 26 women in their own words and several other things that
    need to be said on important women's issues just won't let me leave. 
    
    Most important of all. I love you people and can't go. If it is all
    right with you all, I'll stay on and read mostly. Putting in a comment
    here and there. 
    
    I've come to recognize my problem as depression and am working to rid
    myself of it through a clinical technique called "Cognitive thinking".
    I hope it works. This was another bit of synchronicity to happen this
    weekend. I don't think it's severe, just mild, but I recognize it for
    what it is.
    
    Again, thank you all for putting up with my foolishness and thsoe who
    wrote to me off line. Thank you so much. Your caring means a lot. If it
    is OK with you all, Can I stay? huh please.
    
    Phil

	He's back!  YAY!  I missed you the short time you were
	gone, Phil, and I selfishly hope that someday you feel
	comfortable enough to be more than read-only again ...

	Carla

    
                    I think it is time to leave.  Not out of anger or even
    frustration but more out of a sense of sadness.  My cultural background
    just does not "see" your points of view.  At least I hope that's it.  I
    am afraid that should I stay I would hurt the file more than I could
    help and that more than anything else requires me to take a step back
    and silence myself for whatever period of time it takes for this file
    to evolve to a point where I can both understand and accept.  Of course
    that evoluation might be more in me than in this file.
    
                    For anyone that might want to point at me to help
    confirm a prejudice of this file toward men, I would ask you to look
    elsewhere because If asked you will be *VERY* disappointed.  As much as
    I disagree with many of the thoughts here, it is the best around and
    just because I cannot any longer "fight" the battles, *NEVER* would I
    agree in any way shape or form to any move to change this file by
    outside means...ie...personel or thru legal action.
    
    
    Dave

Phil -

Hooray!!!  I'm _so_ glad you're back!

hugs -

Nanci

    Phil
    
    Ditto!
    
    -Dotti.

    HORRAY FOR PHIL!!!! I'm so glad you're back!
    
    Bonnie

    Arg!  It seems like in the past 48 hours, every man in =womannotes=,
    even the ones I consider the most reasonable, is going out of his way
    to say the most offensive, the most sexist, the most insidiously
    degrading things he can possible get away with.  It is as if in the
    past 2 days there has been a great conspiracy of =wn=ing men to
    undermine the women of this conference.  (And no, I'm not so paranoid
    as to believe that's true.  Maybe it's coincidence, or a big hole in
    the ozone layer, or a new virus...)
    
    Women have always had power through their behind-the-scenes influence
    on men!  Women are to blame for their own oppression (if such
    oppression even exists)!  Women have to always be willing to educate -
    nicely, no less - or they don't deserve to "be equal"!  And now Jody is
    looking for PITY!  PITY!!!
    
    GIVE ME A BREAK!  I won't stand for these things!
    
    No, I'm not signing out of womannotes.  I'm signing out of 
    offensive-male-voice-notes.  Which means that from this note forward,
    until such time as either 1) I am ready to fight at every turn, or 2) I
    see some reasonableness in the male population of this notesfile, I am
    not going to interact with any men in -wn-.
    
    D!

    You want the "Signing Up for the List" note, D!
    
    						Ann B.

    
    
    RE: .37
    
    Sometimes I think we can all get so embroiled into something that we
    can't see the forest for the trees.
    
    And sometimes we can be just as offensive to others as we feel they are
    being to us.  It's always easy to react to how others offend us with
    their words, but sometimes it's really difficult to see how what WE say
    will, in turn, offend them as well.
    
    Sometimes the best thing you can do is remove yourself, totally, from
    the discussion.  
    
    Looking at from an impartial standpoint over the last couple days, I'd
    have to say that I think just about everyone in the discussions are
    being unnecessarily rude and offensive by not valuing the sensitive
    points each other has.
    
    No one will win by being sarcastic.
    No one will win by being rude.
    No one will win by yelling.
    No one will win by attempting to silence another.
    No one will win by degrading another.
    
    And, in fact, it's not about winning at all.
    
    Understand that you are all different, with different viewpoints, and
    you might go far to acheiving and excellent discussion.
    
    But, for the meantime, until people can value the fact that others
    don't feel/think/act the same way as they do, I'm staying completely
    out of it....
    
    Just some thoughts.
    
    Kathy
    
    
    kathy

    -d,
    
    Er, so, um, who did you kill?
    
    						Ann B.

    
    pity kf isn't around to abuse anymore..

    �I am not going to interact with any men in -wn-.

    That'll show them.
                              L.J.

    �I am not going to interact with any men in -wn-.

    >That'll show them.
    
    You seem to be under the mistaken impression that I am trying to
    "show" someone something.
    
    Did it ever occur to you that I might be withdrawing from such 
    interactions for my own mental health and well-being?
    
    D!

    in re .43
    
    Bob, 
    
    Kerry 'gave' far more than he 'took' in that department.
    
    Bon

    
    
    RE: .45
    
    >  Did it ever occur to you that I might be withdrawing from such
    >    interactions for my own mental health and well-being?
    
    Hummmmm......are you truly comfortable with discriminating based solely
    on the sex of an individual?????
    
    Wouldn't it be better if you just didn't interact with those people in
    this conference who aren't good for your mental health/well-being?  
    
    Why set your criteria based on something that people can't control
    instead of basing it on the reason you actually don't want to interact
    with certain people in the first place?
    
    Just curious.....
    
    kath
    
    

    Kath,
    
    In the last paragraph of .37, D! wrote, "I'm signing out of 
    offensive-male-voice-notes." and indicated that she would respond to
    [some?] men when "I see some reasonableness in the male population
    of this notesfile".  Thus, she has already answered your questions.
    
    						Ann B.

    re.47
    
        Said it all.
    
    
    
                                         L.J.

    
    
    RE: .48  (Ann)
    
    True, Ann, she did write that.  But later on the in the same paragraph
    where she states HOW she is going to handle this, she states that she
    will ignore all men in =wn=.  
    
    While I understand that she probably means to ignore only those men
    who's voices are offensive and not good for her well-being, her
    conclusion of how she is going to carry that out is designed to
    alienate ALL men (regardless of their actions).
    
    And, just out of curiosity, what about the women who aren't good for
    her sanity and well-being (like she's probably thinking about me right
    now)? 
    
    How does the fact that a person has a penis attached to their body
    predispose them to be offensive to her?  
    
    Anyway...this is a rathole....
    
    kath

>>> How does the fact that a person has a penis attached to their body
>>> predispose them to be offensive to her?
    
    Well, given some people's sexual orientation I can imagine how/why this
    could be the case...  I mean this in an abstract sense, not about any
    specific person...
    
    Jim

    
    
Re Note 89.51 CALS::MACKIN "Rebel without a home" 
    
In response to:
    
>>> How does the fact that a person has a penis attached to their body
>>> predispose them to be offensive to her?
    
You wrote:    
    >>Well, given some people's sexual orientation I can imagine how/why this
    >>could be the case...  I mean this in an abstract sense, not about any
    >>specific person...
    
    Why do you say that, Jim?  It's been my assumption that you are
    heterosexual (therefore not interested in men as sexual partners),
    and yet I don't see you claiming to be predisposed toward finding men
    offensive because of their anatomy.  Let's not confuse politics, anger,
    and orientation; they're often separate.
    
    Anyone out there got any women's issues they want to discuss?
    
    Justine
    

    
    - .1
    
    what're 'women's issues' ?
    
    D.

    - .1
    
    D., D., D., ....
    
       youuuuu knowwwwww .... Vogue, Cosmo, Self, M'selle, Elle, ...  
    
      <gack!>
    
    - .2
    
     Yes, Justine, I do.  Do you have any idea where I might find an
    audience?  Or should I just go back to talking to my cats? ...
    
      Annie

    Jim:

    it is clear to me that you were talking about some _women_ who by their
    sexual orientation ... [might be offended by people with penises]

    indeed the question of Kathy's that you quoted was...

    <How does the fact that a person has a penis attached to their body
    <predispose them to be offensive to her?
    					/|\
    					 ^
    					 ^ 
    					 ^
    It was clear to me that Kathy was talking about a woman finding _men_
    offensive, and that you were commenting on THAT situation.

        re .50,
        
>>								  her
>>    conclusion of how she is going to carry that out is designed to
>>    alienate ALL men (regardless of their actions).
        
        Why "alienate"?  I would expect those who think "good riddance!"
        to cheer the decision, those who feel the opposite to hope she
        comes back.  Where does alienation come in?
        
        And why "is designed to"?  Sounds like you are ascribing motivation.
        Can you read minds?
        
        Dan

    I thought I meant the following: some people, by virtue of the sexual
    orientation, might find other people of the incorrect gender offensive. 
    Perhaps I really meant it to be "might find the sexual organs of
    people of the incorrect gender offensive."
    
    I was thinking back to people like Leonardo D'Vinci (sp?) who
    reportedly were gay and had this phobia about the vulval region.  My
    history's a bit rusty, so take it with a grain of salt.

    RE:      <<< Note 89.57 by CALS::MACKIN "Rebel without a home" >>>

>>    I thought I meant the following: some people, by virtue of the sexual
>>    orientation, might find other people of the incorrect gender offensive. 
    
    Who are people of the incorrect gender?  That's a new category for me!
    
    Nancy
    

    Nancy
    
    I think he meant 'incorrect' for a particular individual, because
    of their orientation.
    
    Perhaps that note suffered from an excess of euphamism.
    
    Bonnie

    RE:  the last 14 notes.
    
    
     (back for just this moment)
    
    <FLAME ON!>
    
    
                    D! has as much right as anyone in any situation to
    excuse herself from any discussion.  I do the same thing only I do it
    silently.  Just because she was able to verbalize her anger and
    frustration is *NO* reason to question her motives!  Her feelings are
    *HERS* and hers alone.  Men & women both have been guilty of
    "intruding" into her lifestyle.  And I can tell all of you this...very
    little *could* have brought me back to this notes file this fast except
    the *GROSS* unfairness the last 14 have heaped on D!  Her "honest"
    feelings are just that *HONEST*.  And you can honor her for that.
    
    <FLAME OFF>
    
    
    (back out)
    
    Dave
          

    My interpretation of D!'s "resolution" was pretty much the same as
    Kathy's -- that until D! saw a return to reason on the part of the
    male population of =wn= as a whole, she was eschewing discussion
    with *any* man in here.
    
    Now D! and I don't interact a whole lot anyway, but this resolution
    of hers stung just the same. Precisely *because* I feel like I'm
    being lumped in with the Undesirables simply by virtue of the fact
    that I have a penis rather than because I myself did something wrong.
    
    But if that is what D! feels she has to do to regain mental/emotional
    balance, all I can do is sigh, wish it were otherwise, and hope that
    she regains that balance soon.
    
    --- jerry

    someone back in the distant mists of womannotes-V1 or V2 put it most
    succinctly.  D! is not the first to state this, although she is a first
    in a while to declare it publically.  There was a discussion in V2 when
    another noter stated she would not respond to any topic started by a
    man, as she felt her energy was better spent on women.
    
    When it comes to not wanting to deal with male response or male
    "education" or just the frustration a lack of understanding can cause
    the phrase "not all men but always men" was coined.
    
    I understand her reasoning, and I support her getting her needs met in
    whatever way this will bring.  D! is taking care of herself, and for
    this I applaud her!
    
    -Jody
    

    
    
    RE: .60
    
    Dave, I think you misunderstand the intent of my comments.
    
    My comments were made not to harrass D! for her motives, nor to
    derail or belittle her beliefs....
    
    ....rather I made them to voice MY concerns and MY discomfort when I am
    confronted with that sort of attitude.  
    
    I'm not a projectionist, I OWN my feelings and I OWN my right to
    express those feelings where I see fit.  I'm not condemning D! for
    anything, I accept her right to discriminate based on sex (however
    misguided and inappropriate I find that to be).  I also recognize my
    right to express my dismay.
    
    D! was simply making a reactionary comment to some attitudes she had
    perceived in this conference.  And I was simply making a reactionary
    comment to D!'s comments.
    
    Do you feel that one is "goodness" while the other is "badness"?
    
    Is it really so BAD to challenge what I feel to be sexist thinking and
    sexist actions?  If so, then isn't the feminist movement a "bad" thing
    too?  Is it acceptable for women to be sexist, yet not men?
    
    Wanting to live by equal rules.....
    	kath

>I'm not condemning D! for anything [...] however
>    misguided and inappropriate I find [her actions] to be

Can you really write the sentence and keep a straight face?

If calling something "misguided and inappropriate" is not condemnation, I
don't know what is...

D!

    
    
    <sigh>
    
    We can think what we want about each other notes, and express how we
    feel about those notes until the day we die.
    
    However, I don't feel I'm condemning you as long as I'm writing how *I*
    feel about things, as opposed to how things are and what you should do
    and how BAD you are for doing it.
    
    So, yes....I CAN write that sentence with a straight face.  I don't
    feel I'm condemning you by expressing the way that I feel when I read
    your words.   I don't feel I'm convicting you or sentencing you.  
    
    Of course, everything is a matter of perception.
    
    I'm impressed by what you said, and I fully understand your need to say
    it....and I support you in doing what you feel you need to do. 
    However, you can't expect me to always agree with it.  And just because
    I don't agree with it doesn't mean that I'm some sort of ogre.
    
    kath

kath,

I do not think it's just a matter of being PC [oh, mythical concept!] 
so much as gentleness or apparent respect.

In your original response to D! you were not stating personal feelings 
as such.  You were challenging D! to question herself and giving 
unsolicited after-the-fact advice.

89.47> Hummmmm......are you truly comfortable with discriminating based solely
89.47> on the sex of an individual?????
89.47>   
89.47> Wouldn't it be better if you just didn't interact with those people in
89.47> this conference who aren't good for your mental health/well-being?  

Were you to ask the same questions of me, I should probably answer, 
"yes" to the first question to be qualified by "yes, however, lately it's 
been people with <attribute...in this case sex> who've been trashing 
me and I'm just not up to the risk today" to the second.  In general I 
live by your tenet #2 above and only deviate from it when I'm feeling 
particularly bullet-proof.

89.65> However, I don't feel I'm condemning you as long as I'm writing how *I*
89.65> feel about things, as opposed to how things are and what you should do
89.65> and how BAD you are for doing it.
89.65>  ...
89.65> I don't feel I'm convicting you or sentencing you.
    
89.63> My comments were made not to harrass D! for her motives, nor to
89.63> derail or belittle her beliefs....
89.63>     
89.63> ....rather I made them to voice MY concerns and MY discomfort when I am
89.63> confronted with that sort of attitude.  

I don't see harrassment, necessarily, in what you put forward; 
however, the many questions marks, to me, seemed to indicate a 'vocal
lift upon incredulity or surprise' that I most often heard from
persons of greater authority or strength -- a 'tone' that my 
experience has taught me to equate with belittlement and contempt. 
[which does not ascribe these motives to you, but would give me pause]

it wasn't until _much_ later that
    
89.65> I'm impressed by what you said, and I fully understand your need to say
89.65> it....and I support you in doing what you feel you need to do. 

even entered in to the equation.  Perhaps if this had come first.  
Perhaps if you'd used 'I' language qualifiers to begin, instead of later.
    So many 'perhap'es ...

89.65> Of course, everything is a matter of perception.
    
Indeed!  So here I am offering unsolicited after-the-fact advice, %^}.
And you weren't talking to me any more than D! was talking to you.

89.63> Wanting to live by equal rules.....

Amen to that.

  Annie

    re:.62
    
    That sounds like sex based discrimination.
    
                                    L.J.

Friends, I have to sign out for a while.  Work needs, nay demands, my fullest
attention for a while, and I feel I have to remove the (pleasant) distraction
of noting, here and elsewhere.  I think I may have withdrawal symptoms, but as
with quitting smoking (remember, Ellen?) I don't seem to be able to just cut
down, I have to go cold turkey.

I won't even try to list everyone I'll miss while I'm away.  I'd be sure to
forget somebody, then feel terrible for it.

I'll be back!

Sara

    This is ridiculous, because you could not possibly see this until
    you came back, but-
    I will miss you VERY much.
    
    I offer you the H word in the manner to which you have seen me
    extend it previously.
    
    Cindi

    This has been a very pleasant and informative file to participate in.
    
    I have enjoyed it, there have been smiles, interesting discussions,
    a good argument or two, heightened awarenesses, firm/gentle reprimands, 
    and much support found for me here.
    
    I am going to redirect my focus now.  After hours, I hope to attend
    school, take classes, maybe start on some of the neat/much needed
    excercise programs discussed here.
    
    I would not be giving =wn= the full attention it deserves, and as
    a writer, wouldn't really be able to maintain the timely voice
    that is warranted.  
    
    It has not always been "fun" but it has been good. I would like
    to thank =wn= for that.  Watch for me in the Lite notes or ratholes
    from time to time.
    
    For the bulk of the serious issues, I'm signing out.
    
    Cindi

    :-(  glad you're not going far tho

    
    
    Today is my last day, but not forever.  I'm pretty sure that I will be
    back, sometime around late February, or whenever I get sick of school.
    
    So long!
    
    
    Nick
     

    I feel *nailed* by a note that was posted in here recently.  I guess
    it's time for a vaca from =wn=.  Seeya 'round.
    
    -jc

I am going to SSST for three weeks in Boylston and will not have the
time/opportunity to note.  Mail sent to caboom::jimc will eventually get
answered.  

When I get back from class, I hope to be too busy to do much noting, 
but, only time will tell.  I don't suppose I could get y'all to keep
the volume of new notes down could I?  8-) 8-0 8-)

Be seeing you.   (I'm leaving a large supply of hugs, take what you need)
Xtra (((((HUGS)))))
jimc who-will-miss-almost-everyone-a-lot

    Its time for me to sign out.  I'm not leaving DEC (at least not that I
    know of yet), just signing out of =wn=.  I came to =wn= a year ago;
    things were *real slow* at work and I was at the emotional low point of
    my life and its been a good growing experience for me.

    I remember my very first electronic hug (from Bonnie Reinke).  I don't
    think there's been an electronic hug that ever felt so good as that one
    (no offense E), but I was feeling so incredibly awful and alone.

    I must say I haven't always had the most popular opinions here, but I
    have tried very much to disagree without showing disrespect for the
    people who hold opposing views.  I hope I succeded.

    Mary

    Mayr,
    
    I for one will miss you.  come back when you are ready.
    
    Meg

    Mary, I'm glad I had the chance to meet you before this -- come on back
    when you can, ok?  Take care - and btw, you succeeded.
    
    Sara
    

    Mary
    
    I'll miss you too, I'll keep you on the distribution list for parties
    if you'd like.
    
    again hugs
    
    Bonnie

    Mary, I'm glad I got to meet you before you left. Glad you got the hugs
    freed also. Don't be to sure about leavinng. This special place is
    rather addicting. I should know. :-)
    
    Hurry back to us.
    
    Hugs,
    
    

    Last day today...I've enjoyed this conference.
    
    
    
                                       L.J.

I'll miss you, but glad you're doing what YOU want to do.  Good luck -- Sara

    re: .81 (L.J.)
    
         Yeah, I'll miss you, too!  MAybe I'll drop by in Santa Rosa
    sometime and say "Hi!"  Anyway, =wn='ers in this building are hard
    to find...and so from this standpoint I'll miss having someone to
    discuss it with.  (Also, now I *do* have photos to blackmail with...
    ;-)  )  
         I wish you lots of success and fun.
    
    Frederick
    

    L.J.- 
    
    I have enjoyed getting to know you vicariously thru your partner Kel
    and thru your noting, which gets to the bottom line of a lot of issues. 
    (Is that also known as cutting thru the cr*p?) ;-)  Best of luck in
    your new adventures!
    
    -jer

    As of yesterday I have quit Digital.  My last day is Tuesday, October
    29.  Oy!
    
    It's a bit scary, because I don't have a job lined up and don't have
    much in savings, etc.  BUT it's exciting because this way I will get to
    live where I live -- in western Massachusetts -- instead of trying to
    live in Boston half the week, too.  Also, it's exciting because I'm
    starting a massage therapy practice and will be able to focus on
    building it locally.  I'm also the co-founder of an alternative health
    therapy collective in Northampton, so that's exciting to build, too!
    Basically, I'm letting go of my mental need for security and, instead,
    am trusting my inner voice's promptings ...
    
    There's tons of things to say, but I only really want to say that I
    love and appreciate this community, in all its varied splendor!  This
    notesfile has been an important community to me over the last two
    years.  Although I have not participated actively for a while, I still
    love to dip in and keep current.  This forum has fostered my growth in
    so many ways ... and you are all uniquely talented!  Thank you!
    
    My address is:  Pamela Smith, 148 South East Street, Amherst, MA 01002
    		    (413) 256-0241
    My business is: Northampton Center for Healing Therapies
    		    6 Crafts Avenue, Northampton, MA
    		    (413) 585-8975
    
    Pam
    P.S.  I'm part-time and won't be in again until Thursday, so if I don't
    reply to mail or notes, that's why...

Pam,

You're right, that does sound both exciting and scary.  Good luck!

Dan

   Pam,
   	
   It was only a few years ago I let go of something I though gave me
   security, since then I've never felt so secure.  I hope all goes
   well for you.  Who knows, I get out to Northampton fairly often
   I may see you there.
   	
   	Good Luck,
   	Allison

    Pam,
    
    Best of wishes!  I have learned *alot* from you!  Thanks for
    sharing so much.  I'll keep in touch!
    
    with love,
    cheyenne

    
    Pam--
    
    	I took your address down, so I'll come up to see you soon as I only
    live 1/2 hour away in Springfield!!  Good luck, best wishes!
    
    Hugs,
    
    Debbi

    Thank you all!
    
    "May you lead interesting lives!"  :-) 
    
    Pam