Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    I think the primary step to protecting women who have had restraining
    orders placed against their (husband, boyfriend, etc.) is the actually
    make those restraining orders a RESTRAINT, not a simple "you will
    get in trouble if you go near her" order.  People who are in a bad
    frame of mind won't care if they will get in trouble--not at the
    time they are violating the order.  
    
    In the cases Nancy cited, as well in numerous reports of this sort
    of thing, it's always seems to be a matter of a restraining order
    that didn't work.  That's got to be a clue right there.
    
    ---kim

    kim
    
    I had a friend a few years ago who took out a restraining order against
    a boy friend who was harassing her. She had two problems
    1. he would sneak into her car or her apartment - at which point
       the restraining order was pretty much useless
    2. the police were very slow to respond to any complaints she made
       and didn't do much more than warn him off or lock him up for a
       night. When he'd been locked up he'd come back after her mad.
    
    Bonnie

    Bonnie, that's an awful thing to have happen.
                                                 
    Which is exactly why I brought up the mention that a restraining
    order usually isn't worth the piece of paper it's printed on.  And
    it's about time the people who issue those laws make it stick. 
    WE can't.  Only the law enforcement agencies can.  If we could make
    it stick, we wouldn't have to get an order in the first place.
    
    ---kim

People hit because they can.

Police need to arrest those that are violent with their spouses and
children.

Having a lot of weapons around I think has something to do with it.

Having a society where violence is viewed as a legimate means to solve
problems has something to do with it.

john

    
    
    I agree that restraining orders are ineffective.  It amounts to the
    court saying, "Stop that."  I think I read somewhere that in cases
    where women are actually killed by men they are or were married
    to/involved with, there is usually a long history of police
    involvement.  Violence tends to escalate, so there's reason to believe
    that effective intervention in the early stages of violence could
    make a difference, could save some women's lives.  I think that men
    who assault the women in their lives should be locked up, just as they
    would if they assaulted a man or a stranger.  
    
    Justine
           

    There's actually a fairly decent article on this subject in the April
    issue of Cosmo.  I think that we'e starting to see more willingness
    (not enough) on the part of the police to enforce restraining orders
    and at least some judges are starting to take violations of restraining
    orders seriously.
    
    
    
    Arguably, restraining orders don't work.  And there are clearly cases
    where the system that issues them fails to enforce them and to provide
    the protection that the order is supposed to provide.  There are also
    other cases where the restraining order doesn't work but it's very hard
    to know what should have/could have been done. The problem (talking about 
    cases where there have been no previous violations of the order) comes 
    with balancing the restrainee's right to liberty against the need to 
    protect his potential victim.  Absent some real overt act of violence 
    and/or the victim's willingness to bring criminal charges if there has 
    been violence, what is enough to lock the person up?
    
    I think that the media attention and the willingness of more women to
    "go public" about domestic violence is pushing the system to change.
    Unfortunately, I don't think the change will be a fast one. Meanwhile,
    I think that when women are issued restraining orders they should also
    be counseled on some things that they can do for their own
    self-protection (i.e. change the locks on the doors) or at least to
    make it more difficult for the guy to get to them and they should be
    made aware of the services available to help battered women.
     

	
	I was also upset about the deadly violence against women that 
	occurred in the past two weeks, in separate incidences, 3 wives
	were each murder by their husbands, and a woman, in Worcester,
	was set on fire by her boyfriend. It was a week were I had 
	to stop and think about the world we live in. Its very disturbing 
	to think that these types of things are common. It has put fear 
	in me, being a father and a brother. I would like to believe that
	there is a solutions to this problem. And I would like to see
	personal counseling, psychiatric evaluation, or family counseling
	mandated by the same courts, at the same time that a restraining 
	order is given out. These types of personal evaluations are
	usually given after the murder has been committed. Why can't the
	courts be pro-active in this area? And what these evaluations
	might do is alert an expert to a potential dangerous person, 
	and it might also help the person being evaluated, to see their
	frustration as unhealthy, volatile, and a risk to others and 
	himself if he continues on his present course. Courts mandate 
	classes for persons who are caught drunk driving, or send
	drug abusers to clinics. I would think a person subject to a 
	restraining order has cause for further scrutiny.
	

	jasper

    Ahh, but, court mandated counseling comes AFTER CONVICTION and is
    almost always a term of probation -- in other words go for counseling
    or go to jail. Psychiatric evaluations are ordered by the court when
    someone has been arrested and arraigned on formal criminal charges.
    That evaluation, in most cases is done to see if the person if the
    person is competent to stand trial.  Unless criminal charges are brought 
    against the individual, the court can only suggest that the person go for  
    evaluation, and unless they are convicted, the court can only suggest
    counseling.  
    
    While I agree that counseling is needed by most if not all of these
    violent people, I have serious doubts about the effectiveness of 
    forced counseling.  Before counseling can work the person has to feel
    the need for it and be willing to participate.  So, even if the courts
    could order counseling, I'm not sure that it is the answer.
    
    I think that the answer lies in continuing to fight to see that
    domestic violence is truly considered and treated like a crime and to
    help the victims and potential victims get the tools they need to help
    themselves.   

    
    This reply is from a member of our community who wishes to be
    anonymous at this time.
    
    
    Justine
    
    
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    
    
    So often a victim will want to give their victimizer
    another chance - "he'll change" or, more dangerous
    "I can make/help him change."  Well that rips me apart
    as I read it because (1) it isn't true; people change
    themselves, if they're able to at all, only when THEY
    hurt; and (2) that's just the sort of pap which is fed
    to us as we sit in the pews - that a "good woman" can
    turn a man away from his wicked ways, and I've heard
    it from liberal denominations and predictably-conservative
    ones.

    Victims - us, you and formerly-me - are not accustomed
    to thinking of ourselves as having worth, except as others
    give us noble adjectives.  So the opportunity to change
    a sinner of sorts is bait we can't refuse.  Wow!  To think\
    that humble me could change someone's life for the better,
    we say to ourselves.  We don't have to live in poverty or
    near-poverty to be subject to this inhuman abuse (a
    redundancy - what's humane abuse...)

    Verbal abuse in my childhood from one parent (which would
    continue today if I had not severed all contact) prepared
    me for a marriage in which one day the flag went down and
    the verbal and physical abuse accellerated each day.  He
    had an excellent job and I did, too.  He knew how to 
    strike me so that no external bruises would show when
    I sustained a minor concussion at his hands.  I did try
    very hard to reason with him, spoke to clergy, but nothing
    did me any good.  I was about to leave when I, literally,
    woke up pregnant one morning.  And suddenly the abuse
    stopped.

    The physical abuse stopped until our child was almost
    three.  My then-husband became escalatingly impatient
    with a child who was really a wonderful little being
    and someone to cherish and nurture and be proud of.  He
    also lost his temper with me, then physically attacked
    me in front of our child, and I made my decision to
    get us out.

    That is the only thing which stops the violence for
    the victim and we all need to learn that.  And we need
    to get out, save ourselves and children.  Restraining
    orders do nothing, and I believe that there's a statistic
    out there which says that they merely inflame the abuser
    and the victim is more in jeopardy than before.

    Time passes in our lives and now our child is a teen-ager
    and his father is threatening him with physical abuse.
    What worked was to talk to school personnel (headmaster,
    faculty advisor and dean) and tell them the situation,
    also educating them about the danger of restraining orders.

    Also as time has passed I have been open with this child
    in praising him - incredibly easy, this is a nifty young
    person - and setting rules which we both can live by.  Early
    on one day he said he had a question that he wanted to ask
    me and my reply was that he might not like the answer but
    that it would be the truth.  He never asked why his parents
    were divorced and I never raised the subject, it was just
    a fact of life.

    Sorry, I'm rambling --> onward:

    Because of his interest and abilities he's spent more and
    more time away from home, now well into a camp counselor
    training program and, alas, away at school.  But that's
    what's best for this child, he's thriving in the challenges
    that are out there!

    We've talked about our being apart so much, having spent
    so much time together for a dozen or so years, and one day
    he said it all, "When I'm away from home I can control
    when my father can talk to me and when he can't; I just 
    return his calls when I think I can handle it.  When I'm
    home I can tell him that I'm seeing old friends or that
    you and I have plans, so I can see him when it's O.K. for
    me."

    So we've both learned that we have to take care of ourselves
    and we do that; we protect ourselves.  The old Catholic
    Act of Contrition refers to "...avoiding the near-occasion
    of sin" and I think that could be translated into the
    victim's - potential victim's - circumstances.  It does
    take effort and one must stick to the decision; it comes
    down to rejoicing in the gift of life which we and the people
    we love have been given.             
    
    Why on earth mis-treat the gift of life which we have?

    Sorry to take so long to get to the bottom line.  I feel so
    very badly for all the other victims out-there, know that
    I can't throw myself in front of those who would harm you,
    but my spirit sends a message to yours, and if the metaphor
    isn't too wigged-out --> let's join spiritual hands and
    live!

    My daughter, Jennifer, called me yesterday sobbing.  It seems that
    the mother of two of her friends was shot through the head by her
    boyfriend yesterday morning as she was leaving for work.  (When
    the police arrived to arrest him, he committed suicide.)  Her 16
    year old daughter found her in a crumpled heap next to her pickup.  
    The deceased woman left behind three children, a son about 19, 
    a daughter 16, and another child about 14.   
                                               
    Once again, it is those who should least suffer who pay the price
    for violence.  
    
    Barb

    I am so moved by this subject.  However, there are occasions where
    people will lie in order to have a restraining order drawn on someone. 
    This happened to me.
    
    After what seemed like hours of 'battling', I left my (now) ex-husband
    and (foolish me) my 3 children.  He could mentally, physically, and
    sexually abuse me, however, he had never touched them to my knowledge.
    
    Well to make a long story short, he found himself a lawyer that was
    just as insane as he was, and together they cooked up a child abuse
    'concern' against me, thus a restraining order was necessary.  They
    said that they felt that my present state of mind was in question and
    they were fearful for the children.  After six weeks of them searching
    for a judge to sign the order, they finally gave up and I was allowed
    by the court to have normal visitation rights.  
    
    I can't tell you what their scheme did to those children.  Not every
    accusation is true.  Not every person screaming abuse is saying the
    truth either.  The effect this had on me as well as the children is
    more than I can reiterate here.  
    
    I just thought I'd share this with you in order to give you a view from
    the other side of the coin.  Thank God this happened 11 years ago, but,
    as you can see the effect is lifelong.
    
    

    Nothing in this string for awhile. I want to stimulate a little
    discussion. I saw on the news recently, that 2 people are in prison and
    awaiting trial on the California Felony Stalking Law. Can anyone give
    particulars on this law? As I saw it on the news, I have to say......
    
    YYYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!! It's about
    time. 
    
    Now, haow hard is it to prove? Are other states considering similar
    legislation? Will it stand up in Federal Courts? I hope so.
    About time that a person (especially, but not limited to women) had
    more protection then restraining orders that aren't even worth
    1/1 billionth of the paper their printed on. 
    
    Any info/oppinions out there?
    
    PJ