Conference turris::womannotes-v3

I don't know if I told this story in V2 or not, but for various reasons, I got
to thinking about how I feel about being called het, strate, straight, or
heterosexual (I can't think of any others I've been called. Most folks who know
me don't call me male-identified :-). I understand that some of these terms
insult hets; I understand some insult gays. I get confused about which insult
which (maybe it's a mental block). Then I started thinking about power
differentials; how I might not care what I get called because I know which side
of the power-line I'm on in this issue. I've got a gold wedding ring; I can
check the married box; I can talk casually about my sweety; I s**w men; I have
thousands of years of Western civilization supporting our blessed union. I have
it made. But that left me continuing to wonder what other folks on this side of
the power-line get offended by some of the above. And an old incident popped
into my head (remember; I told you I had an old story).

I was chatting with a male, white, gay friend of mine (I'm white, het, female).
He has a male, black, gay friend (I'd like to say I do too, but I don't see as
much of him as I wish). And he (white friend) was saying how his friend was
spotting racism in places where he (white friend) didn't see it [subtext: is it
really there?] [note: I _really_ don't remember this conversation too well;
just the revelations. My friend _could_ have been questioning my spotting
sexism instead.]. And I had two successive interesting revelations. One was
that we made an interesting tri-ad. I would of course notice sexism they
wouldn't; my friend would of course notice homophobia I wouldn't; and his
friend would of course notice racism we wouldn't. And suddenly we each
understood each other; it was a click. And then I started thinking: this is
great. This is how to make contact. But wait! What about poor Joe (the white,
het, male man of my dreams)! I _still_ didn't have anything to offer him, to
help him understand. Oh my! My second revalation! No _wonder_ it's so hard for
him to understand! He was rarely on the down-side of the power-equation in his
life (there was the military...).
	Mez

And thinking more about my .1, I _prefer_ the more informal terms (het,
st***e). I don't _want_ to be called heterosexual or straight. It sounds so,
well, formal. Distancing.

	Mez

I was having a discussion with a friend of mine regarding Lesbians
vs straight women in regards to FWO space.  it was my friend's
contention that Lesbians are more likely to seek women-only
space than men, for a few reasons: they don't have any need to meet
men, as a single het woman might; they interact with men less in
their intimate lives, and therefore are more comfortable with
woman-only space than their straight counterparts are; they think
there are more Lesbians in FWO space, and if they are single
they might want to meet them ;-) ; and that part of their Lesbianism
is that they connect most closely with other women and are therefore
more inclined to share space with them.

I disagreed - I thought the need for woman-only space extended
beyond preference boundaries.  That the choice to seek out FWO times
and places had more to do with being identified with women than 
being sexually attracted to women.

My friend (a Lesbian) said that she agreed, but that Lesbians were
more likely to be women-identified.

So we have to resolve this...what do you all think?

D!

    Sounds like you've already resolved it :-)
    
    I think the distribution will be skewed somewhat toward lesbians, but
    I'd guess most women who have developed a feminist consciousness will
    be interested in fwo space, at least occasionally.  Now, "fwo space" <>
    "separatism", or at least not as I'm using the term; I positively love
    fwo space, think that vanilla separatism sounds utopian, and that the
    militant variety practiced by the Seps faction is symptomatic of much
    the same spiritual disorders as afflict the KKK and the neo-Nazis.
                       

Gosh, I'm with Maggie; what you both said fits together from my perspective. I
need to seek out FWO space because it just doesn't pop up by itself in my life:
my partner is male, one of my two longest-term friends is married to a man and
en famile, enginerring has tons of men, and only occasionally is Shakespeare
put together by all women.

So, it's tough to sort of start identifying as a woman with all that stuff
that's traditionally been defined by a male-dominated society. But, the need
(at least, my need) is greater.
	Mez

    
    
    I was going to start a new topic to discuss this, but since this
    one's already here and hasn't been used much, I'll raise this here
    and see where it takes us.
    
    I'd like to "check in" with the women of this community about the
    issue of differences in our sexual orientations (straight, lesbian, and
    bi).  In all the flurry of activity here and in my job lately, I
    haven't been able to get to this, but I was struck by a comment that
    a woman in this file made a while back.  She said that she felt
    devalued because she loves men.  This really surprised me because from
    my perspective it wasn't that long ago that lesbians here were afraid
    to come out.  Many of us still are.  And it also feels to me that
    men have a large share of this file's time and energy and that a lot
    of friendly/sexual banter goes on between men and women here (much more
    than I see between women).
    
    But I imagine that I have felt mainly focused on my fear about what
    it means to be an out lesbian in a co-ed, mostly straight notesfile
    and that I haven't attended very much to how straight women feel about
    being open about their orientation here.  Is there an issue here?
    My sense is that there may be different levels of safety here, and
    I'd like to talk about it.  Anyone else interested in this?  I remember
    talking with one straight woman recently about the file, and just at
    a time when I thought things were feeling more male oriented than felt
    safe to me, she said that she thought things have never been cozier.
    I thought it was interesting that we could have such different
    experiences of the same period of time in the same notesfile.  But 
    difference teaches us a lot about the world around us and about ourselves.
    
    So.. is there a lesbian-bi/straight or lesbian/bi-straight split?  
    Can we talk about it?
    
    I would like to talk with women about our experience in this mixed
    (straight, bi, and lesbian) group.  Just a reminder since this string
    has been here a while: This string is labelled For Women Only (FWO) -- 
    48.* is the FGD string -- for men and women to discuss this topic 
    together.  
    
    Justine  
               

    Justine,
    
    lately I've felt uncomfortable talking about my family and husband
    to my lesbian friends...
    
    this is an issue I'm grappling with..
    
    I have no immediate answers, but it is an issue that is current to me.
    
    hugs
    
    Bonnie
    

    Justine, your comments amuse me.
    
    In parallel situations with racially mixed groups, I've noticed that
    white people sometimes feel uncomfortable once there's a "critical mass 
    of black folks". Not even the majority, but just enough so that our
    stylistic differences come out, including different experiences,
    differences in how we grew up, different things we can laugh about.
    
    Now, some people can hang just fine. But others... you kinda feel sorry
    for them it gets so pitiful.
    
    And sometimes we black chameleons haven't even shed our outerwear. We
    aren't being any less conformal than normal, we AREN'T talking "jive"
    or hangin' or anything, its just our presence.
    
    Justine, you're right. In terms of percentages, there isn't a lot of
    lesbian interchange here. The stickiest topic is still abortion, which
    few lesbians will EVER have to make a decision about. The number of
    topics on lesbian issues is very small. Contributions from members of
    the file don't always jump out and say: I'm a lesbian, I want to share
    my radically different viewpoint on this issue.
    
    But we "heterosexual/straight/strait/whatever-we're-called" types are
    bound to not *notice* our flirtatiousness, because it is a societal norm,
    and are equally bound to find every nuance of lesbianism to be
    noticeable because its not a societal norm.
    
    I think it would be hilarious if for just one day, all the lesbians in
    the file brought up their issues, talked about their lovers, and in
    general, set up a complete parallel in the degree of flirtatiousness
    of the straight community, just so that we could see how relatively
    quiet you really are.
    
    On second thought, please don't do it. Some random male might feel
    excluded and it could end up in the Personnel case files.
    
    Just for the record, I think the lesbian community is fairly quiet. The
    only community MORE quiet than the lesbian community is the community
    of women of color. I'm not saying that we aren't here, but we don't put
    very many of our issues on the table either.

    It's strange, I was in a "mixed" group last night and they poked fun at
    the heterosexuals for liking men.  I wasn't hurt, but I wasn't tickled
    either....I guess the main thing was that it felt weird...even though I
    know it was joking.
    
    It's come to the point where I generally don't discuss my M/F
    relationships with lesbians, unless asked.  I don't want them to feel
    like I'm rubbing their noses in my societally-approved-normalcy.  It's
    a joyous part of my life, but I actually don't share it with that many
    people anyway.
    
    I have noticed lately that I'm feeling comfortable enough with lesbians
    sometimes to trade risque banter with them and even *flirt*
    sometimes...this feels a big step to me...
    
    
    -Jody
    
    

	Justine,

	You may have touched on a bigger issue.  Speaking for myself,
	I would perfer to flirt and "hang" with non-straight people.
	But in this file (and this society as a whole) that is dangerous
	for the non-straight people.  Let me explain:

		Over the years I have come to know some very
		personal things about individuals that they
		probably do not want the general public to know
		about.  During this time I have also been a bit
		of an outspoken Feminist who has been labeled
		as a "man hater"/Lesbian by those who want to
		discount my point of view.  So to insure that
		I don't "out" someone by actions I would only
		flirt with women I know to be heterosexual, not
		because it is safe for me but because it is safe
		for them.  There is also the otherside that if
		I were to flirt with someone I would like it to
		be clear that person that I am in fact serious
		or that I am in fact "just kidding" (if ya get
		my drift).

	It is my personal opinion that this file is not really a place
	for anyone to play the pick up game but serious play is okay.

	_peggy

		(-)
		 |
			Playfulness is one of the ways to the
				goddess

    
    I know quite a few strate wmn who "flirt" with openly gay wmn....
    It has often turned out to be a comfortable approach to more serious
    questions - or just a way of experimenting with their own feelings/
    orientation. I don't mind it at all...
    It is, after all, how I started to come out to myself!
     
    I don't feel that either being feminist, or being bi/lesbian, or both, 
    demands that you "should" dislike men, or look down on others who like them.
    We all seem to naturally bond with other individuals (or not)
    depending on a whole host of personal stuff - each to their own.
    
    One thing that is guaranteed to annoy me however is when otherwise strate
    wmn flirt with other wmn *in front of (or through) men to provoke a 
    reaction*.
    Many men seem to like the idea of two wmn being sexual together
    (preferably with them included :-|) - playing to that audience, sort
    of "second-hand flirting", is not a game that I choose to indulge in.
    That's why I don't flirt with other wmn in mixed conferences -
    it seems to be invoking voyeurism somehow... 
    Just my view.
            
    'gail
    

    >It's strange, I was in a "mixed" group last night and they poked fun at
    >the heterosexuals for liking men.  I wasn't hurt, but I wasn't tickled
    >either....I guess the main thing was that it felt weird...even though I
    >know it was joking.
     
    Hmmmm...this is very interesting.  Same mixed group, and yet I got the
    feeling there was equal amounts of teasing on both sides.  Interesting
    to compare different perceptions.  (It felt sort of weird to me, too.)
    
    Anyway, regarding the discussion on the whole, I'm in sort of an
    interesting situation.  6 months ago, when I was dating a man, and in
    general Dating Men, I felt very comfortable discussing SO issues.  Not
    that I am dating a woman (well, sort of :-( ), and in general Not Dating 
    Men, I am much less comfortable.  I don't think the file has changed
    that dramatically in 6 months, therefore it must be my change that is
    making me uncomfortable.
    
    I've never seen *any* flirting going on between women here.  None. 
    Maybe I'm dense (it's been known to happen) but I don't think I could
    have missed flirting on the level that goes on between some straight
    folks here.  (No names will be mentioned... ;-)  It doesn't make me
    uncomfortable that men and women are flirting...I'm used to it.  I like
    it.  But I wouldn't flirt here (with a woman.)
    
    Anyway, I was surprised too to see women here saying they were
    uncomfortable discussing relationships with men.  As a matter of fact,
    I am always surprised when I hear straight women say they are
    uncomfortable discussing their relationships with men...why?
    
    D!    

    
    Okay, I was in the same group, and I missed the jokes. Sure, we talked
    about April's legs, and Casey's box... what else did I miss?
    
    For the record, after everyone left, one of my friends called and asked
    me if I had planned on such a mixed group. I realized that I had
    completely forgotten to exclude anyone with possible homophobia. To my
    knowledge, no one there was homophobic, I think they kinda
    self-selected out. But I'm usually so busy worrying about racial
    mixtures that orientation issues don't even occur to me. Whoops...
    
    People who know me know that I am very open. I have very few hot
    buttons - the only thing that I struggle with is adultery. I have
    always hoped that my openness would encourage others to share their
    lives, and if not, I tend to dig a little.
    
    Maybe I should wear a sign: My being het shouldn't keep you in the
    closet!
    
    

    On a related note:
    
    Some friends of my roommate's were over visiting on the same night that
    I had a (female) date visiting.  I had told my roommate that I would be
    having this woman over, so she knew.  I figured since she was warned,
    that it must be okay that these friends of hers know.  So when my date
    met Hagan's (my roommate's) friends, I didn't act any differently than
    I would with a male date...you know, put my arm around her, etc.  And
    later on in the evening (without the date) I was commenting on the
    date, and Hagan pulled me aside and said that it was "too much" - I was
    making too big a deal of it and she was afraid her guests would be
    uncomfortable.
    
    Anyway, the moral is just that it doesn't take much to seem like "a
    lot" of lesbian-stuff to people who aren't used to it.  What might go
    hardly noticed at all between a man and a woman seems like a very big 
    deal when it's a woman and a woman.
    
    D! 

It sounds like it must have been a fun group that got together
last night!!!!! 

Kathy

    re .15, I'm glad you admitted it first, Kathy.  I was beginning to feel
    jealous, too!  :-)  It does sound like fun.
    
    Anyway, regarding straight women talking about men to lesbian friends,
    I have had the feeling in the past that I was *boring* a lesbian friend
    by going on and on about my "problems", escapades, etc., with men.  I'm
    so used to discussing men with other straight women, that I had to stop
    and think, Hey, maybe she's not really very interested in this stuff! 
    So, that's something that I thought would be good for me to remember in
    the future.  
    
    I just wish that our society was such that people could feel more open
    about telling everyone what their sexual orientation is, so *I* would
    know what's going on.  I think any sexual orientation is acceptable,
    I just like to know where I stand with people.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    I didn't realize that some straight women have felt uncomfortable
    talking about their husbands or male lovers, though as I think about 
    it, sometimes straight women do apologize right after they bring up 
    the men in their lives.  I do feel angry that women don't feel safe 
    talking about the women they love, but I want us all to feel safe -- 
    I don't want straight women to join me in my fear and discomfort.  But
    I do appreciate the sensitivity and support of straight women.  I don't
    want them to feel bad about their orientation, but I do appreciate it
    when they understand and acknowledge the challenges associated with
    mine.  
    
    I know that sometimes in all-women gatherings, talk turns to women's anger 
    at men, and I can see how that might make some women who are involved with 
    men feel uncomfortable.  But I've also noticed that some of the angriest 
    (at men) women are often the straight/bi women.  Lesbians might feel anger 
    toward male dominance, that vague thing we call _the_patriarchy_, but 
    there really aren't many men in my life, for example, who are close enough 
    to me to make me personally angry.  The imbalance I see in many
    male-female relationships only hurts me from a distance.  
    
    I think that the things that cause us to be afraid and uncomfortable
    are complex, and I hope that if a woman feels uncomfortable talking
    about men in my presence, she'll tell me.  I mean, if you want to
    talk about the swell thing that your husband/male lover did for you,
    talk about it.  And if you don't like my reaction, call me on it!  
    "Hey, Justine!  This is an important part of my life, and I feel like
    you're not listening to me."  I think it's important to talk about this
    openly, so we can sort out what I did or didn't do from the guilt,
    anger, shame (?) that some straight women might feel around the
    unfairness of their safety and my lack of safety.  I mean, women
    are extremely empathic beings, and I know it bothers me to have more
    than someone else --maybe that bothers other women, too?
    
    I also agree with the folks who have said that a little overt lesbian
    talk really stands out.  I enjoy the playful flirting that sometimes
    happens in all-woman space, but I almost never initiate it with
    women I know are straight (or that I think might be straight).  I think
    that has to do with (emotional) safety -- my own and the women I'm with.
                                    
    Justine                        

    
    if I care about someone, regardless of her sexual orientation,
    I am curious about her life and her loves and her emotions and
    her experiences and her opinions.
    
    if I care about someone, I will not be bored with her stories
    about men (at least, not for the first hour =;-)).  I do admit
    that I grow weary of conversations which center around someone's 
    boyfriend/husband, because oftentimes it seems as if that person 
    is relinquishing her own identity in order to focus on someone 
    else's.  and I don't mean in times of crises, I mean in normal,
    friendly conversation.  this saddens me, and oftentimes I will
    try to refocus the conversation towards _her_, and not her male 
    mate.
    
    regarding flirting:  well, I've flirted blatantly with women in
    this file, but only with lesbians and bisexual women ... except 
    for Lorna.  =8-)  I would never approach a straight woman, nor 
    instigate flirtatious behavior with one.  in fact, I am usually 
    overly cautious in my attempts to ensure my words and actions
    towards straight women are anything but flirtatious.
    
    I, too, wish more lesbians and bisexual women would share (not
    literally!) and write about their female partners.  if I had a
    special female someone, I think I'd feel comfortable writing 
    about her here in =wn=.  gender specific, even.
    
    Carla
    

    Flirting with a woman that you like and enjoy their company sounds like
    fun and hopefully the day will come when it can be done without any
    hesitation.
    
    After all we flirt with men all the time and we don't bed down with
    every one of them!
    
    J

    Lorna's right; I don't discuss my love life because I don't want
    to be [exceptionally] boring.  (Also, I'm a WASP, and that Just
    Isn't Done.)
    
    I'm not uncomfortable around lesbians, but I am shy.  I worry
    about the "Ooh, ick, a straight person" response.  Well, not so
    much lately, because there doesn't seem to be one, but I figure
    it's a possibility among strangers.  Well, how can I know otherwise?
    There are over 5,000,000,000 people in the world and they're all
    different.  It's risky to generalize beyond your data.
    
    I'm not uncomfortable about lesbian "activity"� in this conference;
    I think it's charming.  I suppose other people might feel differently,
    but ... I can't make myself believe that some people's possible
    discomfort should be a primary consideration.  I braced myself and
    got through the bits in _Courtship_Rite_ that made me squirm, so
    others can do that -- or even skip them entirely because there's
    no plot that they might be a part of.
    
    This is a discouragingly incoherent bunch of comments.  Pity.
    
    						Ann B.
    
    �  How can words constitute an activity?

I can see both sides of this issue. There is a lot of heterosexual flirting. I
notice it because I'm a little uncomfortable with it. Also quite a few other
topics involve men. So I can see why a lesbian may see this file as
male-centered. But for a heterosexual woman "men" _is_ a "topic of interest".
I can remember countless conversations with my friends about men in our lives
or lack thereof. So when someone come and points out that we're talking about
men again it sometimes feels like a slap in the face.

manisha

    
    re: .19
    
    Joyce, I agree.  the issue for me is when I come out to a close, or 
    maybe even not so close, straight female friend, their reaction is 
    usually this look of, "Oh no, why is she telling me this?  It must 
    be because SHE WANTS ME!"  which has never been the reason I came 
    out to someone.  and flirting and intimacy and sharing, which does
    occur between straight women too, twists into a whole new meaning.  
    because I don't want to make anyone uncomfortable, and because 
    lesbian interaction is so invisible, I display no indications that 
    I'm interested in her as a lover.  (mostly because I probably am 
    not, and it is too squirmy to tread those rocky waters when one 
    person doesn't like to swim.)
    
    also, I don't want to perpetuate the false myth that we're out to 
    recruit all women.  (although I must admit I wouldn't mind a few
    more.)
    
    it's a double edged sword ... kinda like a labrys!
    
    Carla
    

    Hmm... the thing that puzzles me now has to do with straight women
    mentioning that they feel criticized for talking about men.  I know
    that in some settings (or in the case of this file, in some topics)
    I have felt like "men" were off topic, but in general, personal
    sharing, I have never felt that the men in a woman's life were
    out of bounds for conversation.  I could identify, though, with what 
    Carla said about women who seem to be completely identified with and by 
    their relationship with men, but
     
       1. I don't really socialize with women who fall into that cateogory.  
          I mean if they're out with me, then that means that they do have 
          interests outside as well as inside their homes.    
    
       2. I have felt some (but less often) similar discomfort around lesbians 
          who seem to exist only in their relationship with their lover --
          women (les, bi, or straight) who seem to have lost the "I" inside
          the "We".  Women have often been described as "symbiotic," and you 
          can imagine that in a relationship between two women, symbiosis is 
          actually, almost possible!  All that talk of lesbian bonding might 
          be exaggerated to be humorous, but I must say, that some of it 
          matches my own experience.

    (I'm posting this next part in the FGD (#48.*) string, too, because
    some men might want to respond to it, and I don't want anyone to think
    that I'm talking about men behind a door that I've asked them not to
    open.  But I really want to talk about the impact that this issue has
    on women here, so I'm leaving this section in the FWO string, too)
    
    I am one of the lesbians (not sure who the other was) who objected to the 
    collection to pay for Mike V's ticket to come east to meet one of the 
    women here.  Mostly my objection had to do with the idea of collecting 
    money so any two people from this file could meet, but I'll admit that I 
    was especially troubled and angry that we were collecting money in 
    WOMANnotes so a MAN could have a date with a woman from this file.  I 
    can't even imagine such a thing starting up and being supported between 
    two women, but if it did, I would object to that, too.   I totally support 
    however straight women want to spend their energy in this file, and I'd 
    like support (or at least tolerance) for how I spend my energy here.  But I 
    didn't want to spend money so a man and woman from this file could have a 
    date anymore than I would want folks to spend money so I could have a 
    date.  I hope my anger about the collection thing wasn't interpreted as 
    a lack of support for women's relationships with men.
    
    Justine
                                                              

    What concerns me is the sexual undertones of the conference.  There is
    a difference between a discussion of our sexuality and the practice of
    it and I think there has been some grey area inbetween.  I have always
    said that it is hard to determine when the discussion of sex stops and
    the practice begins.  
    
    

    re .18, Carla, I feel honored! :-)
    
    re .19, Joyce, we *don't*? !!!  Oh, come on, why not? ;^)
    
    re .23, I, personally, have never felt criticized, in this file for
    talking about men.  Although, I can remember reading that another
    straight woman did.  My major personal concern around this issue is
    that I hope I don't talk about men so much in my personal life that it
    would discourage lesbians from wanting to be friends with me.
    
    Lorna
    

I would like to ask an honest question. I've been reading about all this
FWO only space and time with only women. My question is (or my ignorance maybe)
in lesbian relationships doesn't one of the partners take on a male role?

Of the gay people I know, the gay women appear to be very masculine. They
tend to dress like men and some even walk like men.  The gay men I know
are come across to me as feminine.

Am I missing something?


bonnie

>                                My question is (or my ignorance maybe)
> in lesbian relationships doesn't one of the partners take on a male role?

I don't personally know of any lesbian relationships where one of
the partners takes on a male role. I believe this was more apt
to happen years ago. 


> Of the gay people I know, the gay women appear to be very masculine. They
> tend to dress like men and some even walk like men.  The gay men I know
> are come across to me as feminine.

It is true that there are lesbians and gay men who fit the physical
stereotypes you mention. And those are probably the lesbians and
gay men you tend to be aware of. There are many who do not
fit the stereotypes at all....

Kathy

    
    >Flirting with a woman that you like and enjoy their company sounds like
    >fun and hopefully the day will come when it can be done without any
    >hesitation.
    >
    >After all we flirt with men all the time and we don't bed down with
    >every one of them!
    
    J, right on!  I think the world would be a much nicer place if folks,
    regardless of gender or orientation, would flirt and cuddle
    promiscuously! Now maybe my opinion is biased, since flirting and
    cuddling are high on my list of preferred activities ;-), and since who
    I flirt with and cuddle has very little bearing on who I sleep with,
    but gee, wouldn't it be nice?
    
    I'd like to see people (and wimmin, especially [what the heck, I'm
    gynocentric ;-)]) be able to comfortably discuss their relationships,
    here and elsewhere, without regard to the gender(s) of their
    spouses/SOs/lovers/whatever.  I'm bisexual; perhaps that gives me a
    differing perspective, but when I look at my relationships, and the
    relationships of my heterosexual, gay, lesbian, and bisexual friends
    and aquaintances, it seems to me that the gender of one's SO makes less
    difference than one might think.  
    
    Sure, there are some differences - relationships with opposite-sex
    partners seem (IMO) to have some issues around culturally and socially
    defined power diffentials that same-sex relationships do not, while
    same-sex relationships seem to have more issues around social
    acceptability than opposite sex ones.  However, I have found that the real,
    nitty-gritty day-to-day issues in relationships - money, housework,
    sexuality, what we're having for dinner, what we're doing this
    weekend, childcare, jobs, basic stuff like that - really cross
    orientational boundries altogether.  
    
    I've discovered that there may be some initial awkwardness when
    a friend has a differing orientation than I do. After that awkwardness
    is resolved, we both can gripe about lovers who come home late for
    dinner or throw their socks on the floor or leave the cap off the
    toothpaste.  And we can both share each other's joy when a lover sends
    flowers or a gift "for no special reason" or bakes us a cake when it
    wasn't even our birthday or says just the right thing at the right time
    or whatever.  It is this kind of day-to-day sharing that I appreciate
    most with my womyn-friends, and gender of one's partner just doesn't
    make much difference, in my experience.
    
    I'd really like to see the participants in this file get past that
    "initial awkwardness" stage.  I'm not really sure how to accomplish
    that (other than at a one-on-one level), but I do know that it can't
    happen until this is a safe, comfortable space for wimmin of all
    orientations.
    
    
    						/Rita
    

    Urp.
    
    Bonnie, almost none of the Lesbian couples I know follow the "butch and
    femme" (masculine and feminine) roles you describe, although that is
    the stereotype.  Most Lesbians are attracted to *women*, not men,
    therefore it would be kind of pointless if the women looked and acted
    like men.
    
    Regarding whether most Lesbians are masculine...well, as Kathy said,
    it might be that you just don't realize that many of the (gurk!)
    "normal" women you meet are Lesbians, since they don't act in any
    special way that would make you think they are.  Also, it might be that
    you are mistaking non-femininity for masculinity.  Many Lesbians reject
    the roles pressed on them by society as being objects of male sexuality
    - with that rejection sometimes comes a rejection of various activities
    often thought of as "feminine" that are really centered around being
    sexually attractive to men: such as shaving, wearing "feminine"
    clothing, wearing make-up, acting helpless, etc.  So a Lesbian who
    chooses not to wear make-up, and who wears androgynous clothing might
    appear "masculine" to you, when really she just isn't going to any
    effort to fit society's definition of "feminine."
    
    Finally, many Lesbians, in discovering their sexuality, are forced to
    re-examine a lot of societal expectations, and might realize some of
    them don't make any sense for them.  So it might be (I dunno) that
    there are more Lesbians in traditional "male" jobs.
    
    D! who is trying her damndest to supress a knee-jerk flame response
    

    
    I'm feeling very good about how we're doing with this topic.  I mean,
    one woman felt safe enough to ask a question that might very well have
    gotten some angry responses, and other women have responded to the question
    openly and without sarcasm (while still acknowledging that the question
    did make (at least one of) them uncomfortable).
    
    Yay!
    
    Justine

    
    I'm also glad to be getting honest, no flame answers. It really
    was a valid question that I've always wondered about.
    
    Thanks
    bonnie

For the most part, I'm very pleased at how little of an issue sexual
orientation seems to be in this notesfile. Every now and then, though,
I am thrown when it seems that someone is interpeting my position 
about something based entirely on my sexual orientation. When that
happens, I wonder if the listener thinks "capital L" every time
they think of me. It is true that my sexual orientation is am
important part of who I am, but there are many other aspects to me
as well.

When issues like the collection to bring Mike V. to New England
come up and a lesbian objects to it, I see a tendency to lump
issues together and say things like, "The lesbians feel left
out," or "The lesbians think the file is too man-centered," and so on.
In reality, some lesbians and some straight women were uncomfortable
with the collection, while some lesbians and some straight women were
ready to contribute. It is very true that there are lesbians who
think the file is too man-centered, but it's too quick of a leap to
suggest that the *reason* they think it's too man-centered is because
they're lesbian. There are just as many possible explanations
for a position held by a lesbian as there are for a position held
by a straight woman. When in doubt, feel free to ask! ;-)

My "in-person" heterosexual women friends seem to be quite
comfortable talking to me about their male partners. And I'm
glad they are. My "noting" heterosexual women friends seem to take
longer to get to that point, but I think that's probably a limitation
of notes. It's very easy in notes to think of other noters in
one-dimensional, one-issue ways (just as it's easy to think
of "people of difference" in one-dimensional, one-issue ways
whether we're in notes or not). I think we're probably all guilty of
that at one time or another.  The good thing about discussions like
this is that we get a chance to talk and ask questions and work our
way toward seeing each other as multi-faceted, multi-dimensional
individuals.

For the record, I am interested in my friends' personal lives,
and that includes the men and boys they love. At the same time,
I like to think of Womannotes as a place where the primary focus
is on women and their lives. Obviously, men are a part of our
lives, so there is and should be talk of men in here. But I
do feel sad sometimes when it feels (to me) that the focus shifts
too often, too easily, and too strongly to men. I like Womannotes
best when we women talk to each other and share our experiences, humor,
sadness, strength and weakness....

In line with the topic of women-only space that has come up in this string,
I spent this past weekend at a UU Women and Religion conference
with approximately 25 other women. It was delightful. One of the
nicest women-only environments I've been in. I think the thing
I liked best about the weekend was the gentleness and the focus that
was always very much "in the present." In fact, the focus was so
much in the present that I have no idea whether most of the other women
are homosexual or heterosexual, in a relationship or single, are parents
or childless; nor do I know what they do for work. I would love to
inject this notesfile from time to time with some of the peace and
focus I felt this weekend.

In the meantime, I'm delighted to have gotten to know so many
wonderful, open-minded women as I have at Digital. And I'm also
glad that Womannotes is a place where we can have discussions like this.

Kathy

    RE: .26
    
    Bonnie, I'm glad you brought up this point about lesbians
    looking/acting "masculine". The stereotypical lesbian is a woman that
    looks/acts just like a man.  "Saturday Night Live" has a lesbian
    character that follows this stereotype.  Most of the lesbians I know
    don't fit this stereotype at all.
    
    Around the Boston area I've only seen one lesbian couple that followed
    the "butch"/"fem" role.  I've seen one or two ads in one of the local gay
    newspapers put in by "butch" lesbians (this is how they described
    themselves in the ad) looking for a "fem" partner.  I don't know what
    the situation is like in other parts of the world but this is what I've
    observed here in the Boston area.  None of my lesbian/bi couple friends
    follow the "butch"/"fem" roles. 
    
    I've always been a very strong (emotionally), athletic and independent
    person. I think a lot of people perceive these to be "masculine"
    traits.  I dress and act according to what's comfortable for me. I like
    to wear jeans,sneakers and cotton stuff because it's *comfortable*
    (consequently I have to do a lot of ironing ;-)). I don't like wearing
    make-up or dresses just because they're not comfortable for me not
    because I'm trying to act like a man.  I don't look like a man nor do I
    want to look like one.  There are soft and gentle parts of my
    personality that could be considered "fem" by a lot of people. I like
    the "masculine" and "fem" parts that make up my being.
    
    *********************** YAHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO*****************
    I COULD JUMP UP AND DOWN RIGHT NOW...THIS JUST IN...LOOKS LIKE WELD
    WILL WIN THE GOVERNOR SEAT!! YAHOOO!!
    
    Sorry about that. I have the TV on in the background and I was so excited
    to hear this news I couldn't contain myself!
    
    My first woman lover and I didn't follow the "butch"/"fem" role.
    Neither one of us dominated the relationship. We'd take turns driving
    places, pay our own way into movies/restaurants etc.,we'd both initiate
    sex...the list goes on but I think you get the picture.  We were just
    ourselves and we both played a role in shaping and controlling our
    relationship.
    
    About relationships/flirting with hetereosexual women...
    
    I'm more comfortable coming out to hetereosexual women who already know
    other gay folks or who are involved with feminist issues.  I guess
    because I think they'll be more open-minded about it. I hope straight
    women won't feel like they couldn't talk to me about men lovers because
    I'm a lesbian. I would like my friends,co-workers to be comfortable
    enough around me to talk about what's going on in their personal life
    if they wanted to. I'm kind of a private person and even if I wasn't
    gay I don't know if I'd go into detail about my personal life at work.
    
    In a way I think it would be kind of flattering if a straight woman
    were to flirt with me but then on the other hand it might be kind of
    confusing. I mean how would I know if she was just teasing or if she
    might be bisexual and interested in me?
    
    
    Horrors :-| Looks like Helms is in the lead down South.
    
    Baby_dyke_Laurie_who's_still_trying_to_figure_out_how_to_use_a_dental_dam

    BTW, I saw a lesbian comedian down in P-town during wimmin's weekend
    last month. She thought of herself as a "butch" and said if she were
    President of the US then rather than having a President Bush we'd
    have a President Butch. {Insert canned laughter here} :-) :-)
    
    Laurie

	About masculinity in lesbians.




	I've had some rather disheartening experiences around some
	lesbians, though, in regards to "butch"ness.


	I've had numerous lesbians (in G/L/B settings) express their
	distain for polished fingernails, makeup, and non-butch hairstyles
	on ME particularly.

	I was told on numerous occasions that "lesbians don't DO those
	things."  As if such things are "taboo" in the lesbian culture.


	I most certainly hope that these were isolated cases....very
	disheartening and, I think, very condescending.


	kathy
	

    
    
    Kathy,
    I would choose to say you ran into isolated cases.  I was reared 20-
    years ago in the gay community, and yes, there was a lot of role
    playing then.  The only role model we had were the heterosexual
    mamas and papas syndrom.  If a woman felt more masculine, then, she
    dressed acted and tried to become a man.  There are still a lot of
    stereotypical lesbians, but, I don't think I ever came accross a
    butch that put wymyn down for their feminity.  I think fingernail
    polish and make up on a woman is wonderful, feminine.  
    
    I fought for many years to *not* fit the role model of a butch.
    As I've said before, it's hard to be femme when you look so butch,
    and it seems that the visual contact with people ends up in the way
    they treat you.  One of the guys,  'ya know, when in essence, I'm
    not.  I'm a woman and let my peers know that.  I don't want to become
    part of the butch/femme role playing.  We're equal no matter how we
    dress or act.  I act more masculine because it works for me.  I'd
    be pretty funny if, looking the way I do and acting feminine.  It's
    just not in me, but, I don't push that off on anyone.  I'm a woman.
    
    The role playing in the past say 5/10 year span seems to be going
    away, and, I for one am happy about that.  It's a welcome change.
    My emotions won't let me play a masculine role in any relationship.
    
    

My apologies to the bisexual women of the community for
excluding you from my comments in 47.32. Particularly in my
comments about noters' takes on the collection for Mike V.
and whether the file feels too man-centered.....

It was an oversight on my part.

Kathy    

>              <<< Note 47.36 by WFOV11::BRENNAN_N "Dykes 'R Us" >>>

    
    
>    I would choose to say you ran into isolated cases.  I was reared 20-
>    years ago in the gay community, and yes, there was a lot of role
>    playing then.  The only role model we had were the heterosexual
>    mamas and papas syndrom.  If a woman felt more masculine, then, she
>    dressed acted and tried to become a man.  There are still a lot of
>    stereotypical lesbians, but, I don't think I ever came accross a
>    butch that put wymyn down for their feminity.  I think fingernail
>    polish and make up on a woman is wonderful, feminine.  

	I try to give these people the benefit of the doubt and hope
	that they are just isolated cases.

	I might add, though...that all the lesbians that I've heard this
	from were under 30 yrs old, so they weren't part of the earlier
	gay community.



	Out of curiosity.....why is being "butch" (ie, short hair, no
	makeup, no dresses) such an appeal to some lesbians if their
	goal isn't to look male?  Some of the butch lesbians that I know
	would be very happy to never have to associate with men if they
	didn't have to (seperatists?) and they also are very negative about
	women that choose the traditional feminine looks.....yet these
	same women are conforming to a traditional male look (ie, traditional
	men have short hair, don't wear makeup and don't wear dresses).


	I guess I just don't understand the BUTCH look if it's intent
	is not to look masculine, because that's the result they're
	achieving.



	I guess my questions are "why do some lesbians want to look butch"
	and "how is conforming to the butch look any different than conforming
	to a traditional feminine look"?



	kathy

    my guesses as to why the lesbians you can *tell* are lesbians by
    looking at them choose their own style include:
    
    1.  They are not out to attract men, they're out to attract women.  And
    women may be more attracted to different attributes in another woman
    than men might be.  In addition, the short-hair, comfy-clothing look
    that I associate with several lesbians I know is COMFORTABLE, is EASY
    to maintain, takes very little time and preparation, and shows they are
    comfortable with themselves as they are, not as society would like to
    make them.
    
    2.  The way they dress and/or make up may well be the only "safe" way
    they have to signal other lesbians as to what their orientation is. 
    Sometimes people who have their "gaydar" (pardon the term if it
    affronts, but it's so accurate a description) on can "just tell" that
    someone is lesbian by "the way they act" (small signals not easily
    detected by the society which might reject them for their orientation). 
    But other signals, such as clothing, hair, makeup style, choice of
    jewelry, symbols like the pink triangle, help to bring them together
    comfortably and with as little disruption to the heterosexual society
    as possible....
    
    -Jody
    

    My WA guess is that the butch look is a method of signaling that,
    yes!, this woman is a lesbian.
    
    						Ann B.

    Kath, I am turned on by the "butch look", but I don't think it's
    because it's masculine.  As a matter of fact, I don't think the
    butch-look is a msculine look - it is just it's *own* look.  Many looks
    exist: preppy, punk, engineer, biker, hick...and butch.  I believe all
    of these looks that I mentioned are cross-genderal, even if some happen
    to be associated more with one sex than the other.
    
    Also, I believe there is a big difference between *being* butch and
    looking butch.  I am turned on to short hair, leather jackets,
    etc...but the butch act, while amusing, doesn't do much for me.  A
    woman can dress butch without wanting to take on a traditional male
    role in sex or a relationship.
    
    regarding condescension: there are condescending Lesbians who will
    deride you for polishing nails, and there are condescending straights
    who will deride you for your short hair.  Every group has it's losers.
    (I think some of the disrespect for femininity in the Lesbian community
    isn't for being feminine per se...it's that most things that are
    traditionally "feminine" have their roots in female submission to men. 
    Some Lesbians feel that doing/looking that part means you are "selling
    out" to men.  I don't agree with the attitude but there it is...)
    
    One final word on butchness: acting and dressing like a man doesn't
    necessarily mean you want to be, or be mistaken for, a man.  After all,
    in our society, men have been the priviledged ones - in everything from
    being able to wear the more comfortable clothes to being able to choose
    from the better paying and more presigious careers.  It could be that
    women who seem masculine are simply partaking of the advantages
    traditionally granted men, without wanting to *be* a man.
    
    D!

     ref. 38
    
    Good questions, Kathy....
    
    As the 2 previous notes imply, it's a way of letting others know that
    whether society likes it or not, I'm here, I'm queer, and I ain't goin'
    away (or however that goes)
    
    I myself feel much pride in dressing to let society know, as I am
    proud.  It's radical and there's a need inside me to be out every
    waking moment.  It doesn't matter if it's accepted or not.  You should
    see me in a dress, pocketbook, and all the things we refer to as being
    feminine.  YUCK!!  I look sooooooo queer.  My goal is *not* to look
    male, and it just turns out that due to my athletic appearance, some
    people actually address me as "sir"....it's funny now, but, it never
    used to be.  I look at it now as ignorance and they don't look beyond
    their noses.
    
    Anyway, my looks are comfortable for me, other lesbians know right
    away, there's no question, it's a form of unity in the community, I'm
    comfortable, and I have a need to let people know who I am.  At some
    time or other, I have wished I looked feminine, but, in time have
    realized, I would be someone else in looking feminine.  I was always
    a tomboy, softball player, and work hard.  I couldn't be me in a
    feminine apparel.  I hate to cross my legs, and being feminine, I
    probably would cross my legs....;-)  
    
    There is no difference in conforming to a feminine or a butch look.
    I really didn't conform to anything.  This is the way I am.  If anyone
    wants to look feminine, GREAT.  I can appreciate a feminine look, in
    someone else....
    
    By the way, I love this topic.....
    
    Nancy
    

    
    When I first went out to gay FWO gatherings, I was breathless with
    anticipation.....somewhere, at last, that I could really be *me*.
    
    On first encounter I was surprised to see what felt to me like a
    different set of rules. Very different, but rules nonetheless.
    I do see a certain "look" - not butch, exactly, and it's not linked
    to the old butch/femme roleplaying as far as I can see, but it's
    pretty distinctive....
    Sort of adapted from the punk look....several earrings, mismatched
    earrings, short punkesque hair, flat shoes/boots, lots of black....
    Oh to be a trendy dyke!
    I'm no more comfortable with that than with "traditional" female
    dress - I felt a bit out of place with longer hair and untrendy
    clothes.
    
    But maybe that's just the group I came across. Recently I've met
    pretty "normal" looking lesbians, though it seems to be mainly the
    older ones who confidently reject the gay "rules" as well as the
    strate ones.
    
    

    I would like to remind people that *Mike and I* asked the moderators to
    put a stop to the pledge drive.  I appreciate the discussion on 
    the file being men-centered, but could we *please* use a different
    example?!
    
    Thank you,
    
    E Grace

    
    I would like to return to this great topic....
    
    Ref. flirtations....I visit many strate places, and soon after meeting
    a woman, strate or gay, the conversation turns to my identity.  Once
    a woman knows I'm a lesbian, it doesn't bother me to flirt or be
    flirted with.  My strate friends know me, and they know it's safe for
    them to flirt with me and I won't take it any further.  They love it.
    I love it and we all get along.  That's exactly all it is, flirting.
    
    Now, if a known strate wmn shows some signs (or what I think are
    signs), I really have to sort out just what is behind it.  Does she
    know I'm gay or not.  If she doesn't, then I'm assuming she's just a
    friendly person.  That's as far as I go with it.  
    
    This attitude of mine has really gotten in the way of getting to know
    some very nice strate wmn.  They could be honestly flirting and coming
    on with me, but, I take it as fun.  It is very confusing to try and
    figure out exactly what the flirtations are...'course, it don't take
    much to confuse me in the first place.
    
    Until a dialogue between two flirting wmn is talked about, then it has
    to be left and fun-time....
    
    ENJOY!
    Nancy
    
    
    

Re: the look question

For myself, I like to wear what's comfortable and 'natural', and that's 
not going to involve high heels or makeup, for example.  My purpose is
functional/comfort, as opposed to trying for a certain look.
(I do have a separate set of work-clothes vs. play-clothes -- but
both sets relatively comfortable/functional.)

I think that to label those clothes as 'masculine' says alot about our
society (and not good things).  (If I was to try to categorize them by
gender I'd probably call them an androgynous look -- because to me
they're not associated with a particular gender.)


I'm also more likely to be initially comfortable with someone who
looks 'natural' to me, since I will make the (perhaps incorrect) assumption
that this person isn't all that concerned with fashion/looks, etc.,
and so I think we have at least that in common. 
(This has all the problems of any judgement-by-first-impression, of course.)
So I'm going to have a harder time getting past the extreme
'heterosexual-Vogue' model look, or the heavy chains-and-leather
look, than the 'looks-like-me' look.  Just like anyone.


	MKV

This time of year, I usually wear blue jeans, a turtleneck,
a sweater or sweatshirt, and walking shoes. I wouldn't
call this garb especially "feminine," but I don't think it's
masculine either. Like Mary, comfort is the top priority with
me.

I think people should wear what they want to wear. The
fact that I'm happiest in jeans and a sweater bears no reflection
on what I think other people should wear..... Like Kath, I've
felt pressure to wear certain clothes, but with me, that pressure
came from my mother who thought a pink dress was just the ticket!
Uggghhhh!!! The fights we used to have about clothes.... 

Kathy

    I think comfort is a priority with lots of women - or has been over
    the past 20 years or so, with the advent of the lastest wave of
    feminism. I have my doubts about the future, however...
    
    I'd really like to know what a woman who "walks like a man".. walks
    like.  Anatomically, there isn't any reason for one to walk differently
    than the other. Maybe eschewing high heels acounts for it in women
    who are apparently Lesbian (high heels do really odd things to your
    gait), but what is it about *walking* that can possibly be defined
    as masculine or feminine?
    
    --DE
    

    re .50
    
    Most women have a different shaped pelvic girdle from most men,
    and this affects our stride.  There is variation; contrary to 
    fictional detectives and popular archaeology, it is not always 
    possible to identify sex of a skeleton by hips - but usually.
    
    Most women have a different weight distribution from most men,
    especially in hips and thigh.  This affects center of gravity and
     walking styes.  Men have body parts between their legs that 
    affect the way they walk.
    
    I was told years ago by a WWII veteran that they could tell
    male from female figures on the (whatever was the technology)
    screen by the way they walked.  When scanning unknown terrain 
    at night, they would assume that female figures were probably
    civilians, while male figures could be enemy soldiers.  (a
    reasonable assumption at the time. )
    
    Pat
    

    re .50, .51, re walking, over the weekend my daughter and I were having
    a discussion about why some women "wiggle" when they walk.  We were
    walking through Boston Common, at the time, and I was noticing that a
    certain young woman walking ahead of us was *really* wiggling, while
    none of the women in sight were.  Melissa and I were speculating
    whether there are any women who wiggle naturally or whether all women
    who wiggle are consciously doing so in order to attract men.  (I've
    never noticed any women that I *knew* or *thought* were lesbians
    wiggling.)
    
    We both agreed that we *could* wiggle when we walk if we made a
    conscious effort to, but that it didn't come naturally to either of us. 
    I also admit that when I see a woman who is noticeably wiggling that I,
    sort of, well, I don't really think less of her, but I do think it's
    silly.  It seems to me that they're walking a certain way in the hopes
    of attracting men.
    
    Lorna
    

    Forward motion has to have a sideways component.  (No, I don't
    know why.)  Men generally move their shoulders for it, while
    women move their hips.
    
    						Ann B.

    Not to rathole this, but the difference in the pelvic girdle
    doesn't account for very much difference in gait. Shoe type
    and societal conditioning account for a LOT more. Women athletes
    I went to college with (phys ed majors) had the same type of relaxed,
    athletic stride the male athletes did. Slo-mo will show the greater
    angle of the femurs due to the wider hips, but that shouldn't cause
    a huge difference in gait.
    
    I think there's a  lot to the theory that says you dress/talk/walk in
    a manner that's likely to attract the person you *want* to attract.
    I remember girls in my junior high school class *practicing*
    hip-wiggling walks because "that's how girls are *supposed* to walk".
    
    --DE
    

    
    ==:-) This is such a great topic!!! And folks here are handling this
    topic with such tactfulness that I'm really impressed!
    
    
    >>>	Out of curiosity.....why is being "butch" (ie, short hair, no
    >>>	makeup, no dresses) such an appeal to some lesbians if their
    >>>	goal isn't to look male? 
    
    As D! (:-)...everytime I see that signature I gotta smile) said a few
    back, "butch" isn't just a way of looking it's also a way of behaving.
    Or at least that what "butch" means to me.  . Anyways, I think of a
    "butch" as going one step further than looking like a man. I think of
    it also as acting like a "John Wayne" kind of man: very aggressive,
    never cries,ultra-Arnold-Scheineiger-(sp?)-rough-and-tumble-tough,
    domineering,always in control of the situation.  
    
    I have shortish hair (actually it's getting near shoulder length right
    now), rarely wear makeup or dresses.  I don't look this way because I'm
    trying to be "butch" but just because it's comfortable and it  feels
    natural for me.  It doesn't matter to me what people think of the way I
    dress.
    
    I looooooovvvveee LEATHER JACKETS!!!!! :-) Especially when there are
    women in them! I saw a lot of them last SAt. nite at the Opera House
    :-) for the Judy Small/Ferron concert.  It was the one time I didn't
    mind standing in a long line for the bathroom :-) I love wearing my
    leather jacket; it's almost like wearing armor. I love to wear my
    studded black leather belt too but it's reserved for special occasions
    ;-)
    
    There are certain signals that I look for to tell me if a woman may be
    gay/bisexual. The "trendy dyke" look someone mentioned a few notes back
    is definately a signal for me: A leather jacket, womyn-type jewrly, a
    tail, funky looking haircut, Johnboy Walton type glasses (no offense
    intended here I just can't think of anything else to compare them
    to),lots of black clothes,jeans,cowboy boots, studded belts (ohhhh
    yah!). Uuummmmmm...and if she knows who Patricia Charboneau is then
    this is a definite sign!  Let the flirting begin ;-)
    
    >>> Toys "r" us Dyke
    
    I love it! Geez Louise, this topic has just made my week!
    
    
     Laurie

    I've seldom "wiggled" on purpose, but I find that it's a fairly easy
    gait to attain if you're in high heels.  But high heels are not
    terrifically comfortable for me.
    
    However, put me in my buttersoft black leather flat-bottom boots and
    this miraculous sort of strut occasionally comes over me ;).....
    
    -Jody
    

    Speaking of leather........Some people in this file have seen my
    "unique" black biker's jacket.  I have ta tell ya....I get SOOOO
    many looks in that thing (from women and men) it's unreal.



    kat    

    I love your jacket Kath.
    
    It should be mine :)
    
    

    
    re: butch and femme
    
    I truly believe this comes from inside.  a recent female lover
    wore boxers and men's clothes, had almost shaved short blonde 
    hair, and looked (clothed, anyway =8-)) like a 14 year old boy.
    yet she radiated the softest and most powerful sensuality, and
    she was very in tune with her spirit and her self ... traits I 
    consider extremely femme.
    
    sometimes I wonder if sexuality is more masculine, and
    sensuality is more feminine.
    
    Carla
    

    re .57....so what does this jacket look like???

    
    Yes, I'd like to hear more about the jacket, too!
    
    
    - jaime

    Geez...I'm all curious now. So just what does this jacket look like?
    
    Maybe we should have a DEC women's leather jacket contest with a couple
    of different categories like:
    
    - BEst looking jacket
    - Most creative display of buttons and zippers
    
    ahhhh. I too tired to think of anymore. STill catching up on my sleep
    after staying up until 3:00 on election nite!
    
    Laurie

    I'm still remembering, very fondly, the jacket Catherine Iannuzzo wore
    to the march (I saw the pictures, though I didn't go) on
    Washington.....(I think it was she who wore it....)
    
    "Suffragettes from Hell...born to smash the patriarchy!" was what it
    said, amidst the applique'd flames....
    
    -Jody
    

    The jacket is a typical black biker's jacket with zippers at the
    wrists and zips up the front with a sort of belt around the bottom
    (like most typical biker jackets have).

    It's got a HUGE metal clasp on the front of it....looks a little
    like


                                    -------
                                    |______
		---------------------     
                                    |
                                    |
                right side          |   left side
                                    |
		---------------------     
                                    -------
                                    |______


    Does that make sense?   The right side of the clasp fits into the
    left side, and there's a long metal "pin" that goes thru the two
    parts of the clasp to hold it together.  The pin is on a long chain.


    On each shoulder there is a metal V (for Vertucci, the designer's name).
    The V is really long and is sharp on the ends, and it attaches to
    the jacket with with snaps, so they are very easy to get off and on.

    The clasp is big enough that I often refer to it as my chastity
    belt.  And should I ever get in trouble on a dark street, I'm sure
    the sharp Vs on the shoulders will come in handy.

	kathy

    
    RE: .56
    
>>> However, put me in my buttersoft black leather flat-bottom boots and
>>> this miraculous sort of strut occasionally comes over me ;).....
    
    Jody, aren't these the same boots that Gwendaline (sp?) wore on
    Halloween day?  Ummm...I thought I heard the witch doctor mumble
    someting about some "wiggling" but I just assumed she was talking about
    her Zusami cursed snake ;-)
    
    ((((((((((((((.\/.))))))))))))))))
                   ||
                   /\
                   --
    
    Laurie 

    I was only wiggling because she put another darn pin in that voodoo
    kewpie doll!
    
    -Jody
    

    
    	RE: .64  Kath
    
    	By any chance, did you buy your leather jacket in Colorado Springs?
    
    	My youngster wants a leather jacket for Christmas and he's been
    	looking around some, but I'd appreciate your advice on the best
    	place to get him one.
    
    	Yours sounds really cool.
    

    RE: -1
    
    I bought mine in P-town (Provincetown, MA).  But that's kinda far
    to drive from Colorado :-) I didn't even buy mine in a leather store.
    I bought it in this store called "Shop Therapy". It's a pretty
    funky store but I like to go in there just because it has a lot
    of "different" items.
    
    I looked in several leather stores to buy one but I just never found
    the right one.  As soon as I saw the one I own now I just knew this
    was "it" :-) :-) And then when I tried it on!!! Wow!!! It was like
    it was made for me! This kinda sounds like a description people use
    when referring to the first time they meet their soulmate ;-)
    
    Laurie

    Someone (I think it was Kath) a while back mentioned that she thought
    she got picked on (by lesbians) for wearing nail polish and makeup,
    and I wanted to talk about this some more.

    My first response to that was some rather defensive denial, but as I
    thought about it more, I realized that while I probably would never be
    so rude as to comment on something like that, there was a time in my
    own evolution when I might have felt critical, and maybe I would have
    given off some judgemental "vibes."  This is a little scary to admit,
    but other women have been so open here, I think it's only fair that I
    do the same.

    I remember when I was a little girl I was walking somewhere with my
    mother, and we saw two women walking arm in arm (I was maybe 8).  
    "Mom, are they queer?" I asked.  "As 3-dollar bills," she replied.
    That's the first thing I remember hearing from my mother about gays.  
    I'm not even sure those women were lesbian, as I think about it.

    I shared that memory of mine to underline the fact that I grew up with
    the same homophobia as everyone else I know.  In my teen years, even
    though I had certainly become aware of my attraction to women, I was
    frightened by "dykes" -- strong women with short hair, casual clothes,
    women who seemed indifferent to men and interested in each other.  They
    laughed loud, took big steps, had dessert in restaurants even if they
    were overweight (and most of them seemed to be at least a little bit
    overweight).  I was both attracted and repelled.  If I was gay, I thought
    to myself, I wouldn't be like that.  I wouldn't look like the kind of
    woman who couldn't get a man, even if she did want one.

    I think that last part is important, because as I started reading and
    learning about women, and as I spent more time in the company of women,
    many (but not all) of them openly lesbian, I realized that a lot of my
    homophobia came from my own desire to please and be attractive to men.
    (I think this is one big way in which homophobia and sexism are connected,
    but I think that deserves its own topic.)  I usually assumed that the
    (conventionally) pretty women were straight (why was that thin, straight
    woman with the long, obviously fussed-over hair handing out flyers
    about a woman's dance at her co-op?)  So I had a bit to learn about
    who could and couldn't be a lesbian, but I grew to admire these women
    who looked like dykes, and I began to see them as truly beautiful, strong
    women, and I let that part of me come out.  My father thinks I've never
    looked worse -- I think I've never looked better.

    So after I came out as a "baby butch" (in looks only, I really don't think
    of myself as "butch" in a behavioral sense), I'll admit that I was 
    perplexed by the lesbians who wore makeup and dresses and nail polish, and 
    I guess I looked down on them.  I felt that they were trying to pass for 
    straight, and I think my own homophobia made me feel angry that they
    could "pass" and I couldn't.  I couldn't see then that they were
    expressing themselves just as I was expressing myself.  I felt 
    comfortable, and so did they.  I have finally learned that there are
    as many ways to be a lesbian as there are women who are lesbian.  I happen
    to feel a real attraction for the "lesbian uniform" that Charles mentioned,
    but I no longer find myself surprised when I meet a woman who *says* she's
    a lesbian but isn't wearing the uniform :-)  And! (and this is the biggest 
    surprise to me, of all) I'm finding that I'm starting to like other kinds of
    clothes, too -- some women's blouses (instead of just men's shirts),
    sometimes with an extra button unbuttoned -- I even have a shirt that
    has flowers on it! :-)  So I'm letting go of some of my beliefs about myself
    even, and that feels good.

    I mention all this because it may be that whoever it was that gave
    Kath a hard time was still working through some of her own internalized
    homophobia and misogyny.  I don't think disdain for the adornments of
    conventional beauty is a given in the lesbian culture, but it may be
    a common part of the coming out process.  This doesn't mean that folks
    shouldn't get po'd when it happens, quite to the contrary, I think we
    should call each other on stuff.  I only work on the stuff I think I
    need to work on (and usually I can't get to all of that :-), so let's
    tell each other when we blow it.

    Justine

	RE: .69 (Justine)

	Excellent note.

>    Someone (I think it was Kath) a while back mentioned that she thought
>    she got picked on (by lesbians) for wearing nail polish and makeup,
>    and I wanted to talk about this some more.


	Yes, it was me.  I think I do believe I understand this could
	be part of the coming out process.  Being a non-lesbian myself,
	though, I was concerned that the comment was directed at me,
	as opposed to another lesbian.  Although, now that I look at it,
	both are equally as "terrible" actions.

	I see two sorts of denial/rejection.  The first being critical
	of other lesbians who don't quite fit the mold.  The other
	being critical of strate/straight women for (possibly?) creating
	that style.

	As you said, I think it is important to call each other on this
	sort of stuff.  (I know I would want to be called on it). But,
	calling people on it is another topic in itself.  People get
	very defense in these situations (I'm talking in generic terms
	now, not lesbians/makeup).

	I find myself more often than not taking the above sort of
	abuse and allowing people to treat me this way.  This is something
	that I don't want to allow to happen anymore.  But how to
	we give constructive criticism without putting the other
	person in a defensive stance?

	(Another topic in the breeding!)

	kath

	
	

I think what's being disucssed here is common among "oppressed" minorities. If
you're not with us 100% then you are the enemy. And the dress code is part of
what shows solidarity. It takes confidence to accept differences and if you are
still unsure of yourself there is comfort in sameness. Obviously this is an
outsiders opinion and perhaps it looks different on the inside but it's how it
seems to me. 

A friend of mine told me that when she lived back east she routinely made
assumptions that a women was a lesbian by what she wore. Then she moved out west
and all these straight women were wearing jeans, flannel shirts and boots. I
always considered that the outdoor person's uniform and wear it often myself.
Now I realise why I have so few men ask me out. They all think I'm a lesbian or
a software engineer. :*) Though I do still get depressed when I hear lesbians
complain about men asking them out, how come they get asked and I don't? Never
mind, rhetorical question. 

I kind of like the "trendy dike" look even though I'm not a lesbian, but I'd
always thought it was punk. Guess I'm just behind the times. liesl

    
    Kathy, speaking for myself, I've received multiple ribbings and
    teasings for my look, and have been called a foofy dyke on many
    occasions.  sometimes it hurts (why, why, why should that hurt?)
    and other times I laugh.  I cannot wear Levi's and I look too 
    brutish in flannel shirts and I much prefer flowing dresses and 
    a punk haircut and sometimes makeup and lots of jangly jewelry.
    
    I recall teasing you, on one occasion, for your long fingernails,
    saying that lesbians rarely have long fingernails because of the 
    potential pain factor, and I apologize if my comment hurt you, if 
    this is what you're alluding to on your trip down memory lane.
    
    Carla
    

    RE: .69

>>> I remember when I was a little girl I was walking somewhere with my
>>> mother, and we saw two women walking arm in arm (I was maybe 8).  
>>> "Mom, are they queer?" I asked.  "As 3-dollar bills," she replied.
    
    I remember when I was about 9 or 10 my mother saying "I think that's
    disguisting" referring to women making love to other women. Before I
    started to come out I too thought what lesbians did was *gross*.  It's
    taken me a long time to erase this negative image out of my mind.
    
    This is going to sound kind of strange but before I started coming out
    a lot of my fantasies (sexual and romantic) involved a man and a woman
    and I was the man. The man was faceless though but I knew it was me. I
    didn't *want* to be a man it's just that the only role models of
    couples I knew of contained a man and a woman.  It wasn't in my brain's
    database to have a couple with two women in it.  Then after I started
    coming out my fantasies changed and I started to dream about me as a
    *woman* with another *woman*.
    
>>> I have finally learned that there are
>>> as many ways to be a lesbian as there are women who are lesbian.  I happen
>>> to feel a real attraction for the "lesbian uniform" that Charles mentioned,
>>> but I no longer find myself surprised when I meet a woman who *says* she's
>>> a lesbian but isn't wearing the uniform :-)  

    I've seen a lot of lesbians/bisexual women at Indigo who aren't wearing
    the uniform :-) A lot of women there dress up, wear make-up and don't
    fit the *uniform look* at all.  A lot of them seem to be in their young
    twenties.  I think it's great! I've got to admit though that I feel
    kind of uncomfortable or out-of-place if you will when I'm dressed
    casually and a lot of women around me are wearing dresses/skirts.
    
    
    Ummmm...I'm wondering about something. Are the heterosexual women of
    this notesfile offended by the use of terms such as "het" or
    "straight"? I like to use the term "het" just because it's easier to
    type than heterosexual and its cuts down on "fingertip rot" :-)
    
    Depending on the context they're used in, the terms "dyke","fag" or
    "lesbos" may be offending to me. When I'm with friends we use the word
    "dyke" but I know it's not being used in a degrading manner so it
    doesn't offend me. This has been a calm discussion here and I haven't
    felt offended or bothered by anyone using the word "dyke".
    
    Phewwww!!! Gotta get some sleep. Geez, lately I've needed a mom (or
    dad) to tell me when to quit and get some sleep :-)
    
    Laurie_who_will_be_counting_dykes_rather_than_sheep_real_soon ;-)
    

	Sometimes we have no concept of how much incessant teasing
	can hurt others.


	Then again, the the word "teasing" itself has a bad conotation
	to it anyway.


	When should we tease, when should we not?  When should we push,
	when should we not?


	kath

    re: het and straight and stuff
    
    There have been complaints in the past about "het" and "strait" and
    "straight" from several noters, and the term "heterosexual", although it
    takes forever to type, seemed to be the consensus accepted word for a
    majority of these people.....
    
    fwiw
    
    -Jody
    

Justine --

I liked your note about the coming out process involving sometimes
judgements against "straight-looking" dykes, and assumptions
about who may  be a lesbian.  I remember the day I got shocked out of 
those assumptions: I had gotten a letter from one of my sisters,
about 10 years ago, when she was in her late teens.  It was 
one of those letters that starts with "you'd better sit down before you
read this".  She was (is) fairly traditionally feminine looking, blond,
long hair, dresses, make-up, boyfriends, the whole bit :-).  I was convinced
the news was going to be that she was pregnant.  Well, the news was
that she was going out with a woman.  And I about fell off my chair.
Of all my siblings, I had thought she was the least likely to be gay,
which was why I had come out to her first, in fact. 

Being knocked over the head like that with my own stereotypes and
assumptions, it's been hard to forget the lesson.

	MKV

    Something just occured to me this weekend, when thinking about fashion
    and uniform, and "looks" in general.  
    
    When I was "straight", I chose my clothes largely according to what
    would make me appeal to men.  Rather, I based my "ideal looks" (which I
    never achieved and actually didn't put too much effort into achieving,
    but some) on what I thought would be attractive to men - including my
    weight, my clothes, my hair, etc.  Sometimes I would deliberately
    choose something that I knew wasn't (generally) attractive to men to
    make a statement, but it was still defined in terms of what was
    attractive to women.  In general, my goal was to be attractive to those
    I found attractive.
    
    Now that I am seeing women, I was surprised to discover that, rather
    than trying to be attractive to those I find attractive, I try to *look
    like* those I find attractive.  So I am attracted to trendy, butchy
    dykes...but instead of trying to figure out what trendy, butchy dykes
    are attracted to, I try to look (without much success) like a trendy,
    butchy dyke.
    
    This might be a holdover from trying to attract men - that is, I
    establish a standard of beauty that I will try to work towards -
    previously, this standard was based on what I thought men found
    attractive and now it's what I find attractive.  On the other hand, it
    might be something new - trying to change myself to be attractive to
    myself, rather than trying to fit someone else's image of attractive.
    
    Anyway, I'm just babbling, but I noticed that difference in how I
    related to men and how I relate to women, and thought I would comment.
    
    D! 

    
    always being a tom-boy when I was younger, the casual jeans, sweaters,
    T-shirs, etc., have stayed with me through adulthood.  Only now, I
    wear V-necks, low buttons, but hang on to the comfortable 'ole cords,
    jeans and sneakers....
    
    plain_and_comfortable
    

Random thoughts:

As I have gotten older, I find that I wear fewer and fewer dresses.  
I'm not sure how much it has to do with the amount of time I spend on the
floor with my son (being ridden like a horse, "hiding" under a blanket
from Mumsy, and being treated like a mountain to climb), or with the fact that
I'm married (so I don't *need* to attract a new person), or just that it takes
less energy to wear pants (and not have to shave my legs for a dress - I don't
wear dresses with unshaven legs). 

I'm still more attracted to women who wear dresses.  I love it when Shellie
wears a dress.  When we go out for a special occasion, we usually both wear
dresses.  This can be interesting because our styles are so different. :-)
I'm glad to notice that nowadays it doesn't freak out the lesbians at the
bar so much on the occasions when we have gone dancing.  We used to get a 
lot of stares, and we would look for friends to hug them in order to "prove"
that yes, we really are dykes.  :-}

Now I can appreciate more the "comfortable" look.  I've even been attracted
to a couple of "dykey" women.  I wonder sometimes how "dykey/butch" I'm going
to look as I get older, have shorter hair, etc.  It's an interesting 
turnabout for me.  It seems that I have had prejudices that I am only 
in the last few years realizing and acknowledging.  Now I have to figure
out exactly where they have been interfering in my life, and make changes. :-}

The interesting thing has been that I grew up around a lot of straight women
who looked like that.  I know others now.  I find it amusing when straight
women talk about how butch we all are, and miss all the "butch" straight
women around them.  :-)

BTW, Liesl, when I read about some folks' definitions about "trendy dyke",
then I'm as far behind the times as you are.  Instead, I also think it is
more "punk", and with the description of "lots of jewelry/earrings, wears
lots of black clothes, funky short hair, etc" I immediately thought of 
Carla.  :-)

     Carol

Carol, I couldn't help laughing over the idea that you had "to convince" people
you were dykes. :*) You and Shellie don't fit the stereotype that's for sure. I
think of Shellie as the "earth mother" look. One I wore myself for quite some
time. 

I also thought of Carla when they described "the look". She got me into wearing
a lot more black and more jewlery. Of course, I got her into a little bit of
color too! Wonder how the cruise is going? liesl

    
    
    re .79 
    
    	Why do you feel you have to show the world you're gay? I don't
    go into bars and start hugging men to prove I'm straight! Coming
    out of the closet is one thing...shoving it in peoples faces is 
    another.
    
    
    

    re .81, most straight people *expect* everybody else to be straight,
    too, unless they know differently.  Why go out of your way to show
    people you are what they expect you to be anyway?
    
    Lorna
    

    
    
    RE .82
    
    	That was my point. Why would she go into a gay bar and start
    hugging women because she had a dress on.
    
    
    bonnie

    
    ref...47.81
    
    Sorry, but, I don't feel my wanting people to know I'm a lesbian is
    shoving it in their face.  I merely have a need inside myself to let
    people know who, what I am.  I am proud of who I am.  I'm proud that
    I have made it this far in life.  When I meet someone who may or may
    not know me personnally, somehow, due to this need in me to inform,
    a conversation may come up we have a chance to discuss my life.
    
    If someone I know doesn't know who, what I am, I feel that I have
    totally cheated them out of a part of me, which, in turn, would not
    lend much depth to a friendship.  Besides, why shouldn't I be able
    to talk to friends about my life as they are free to talk about
    their lives.  I'm not willing to be cheated out of it either...
    
    Hopefully, friends that talk about my life will not feel that I have
    shoved it in their faces.  That is not the intent in my wanting to
    let them know who I am....
    
    Nancy

    
>    	Why do you feel you have to show the world you're gay? I don't
>    go into bars and start hugging men to prove I'm straight! Coming
>    out of the closet is one thing...shoving it in peoples faces is 
>    another.

    What do you call wedding invitations?  References to "my husband"
    or "my wife" or "my boyfriend/girlfriend" (as opposed to "my spouse"
    or "my SO")?  In our culture, it's common practice to "shove one's
    sexual orientation in people's faces"; why should gays be held to a
    different standard?

    People don't ordinarily assume you're gay, so the analogy of your
    going into bars and hugging men isn't a parallel situation.  
    Although I'm not clear on how hugging someone would show one's 
    sexual orientation, I think the point was that Carol wants to avoid
    the discomfort that comes with people consistently making erroneous
    assumptions about her, and trying to justify them on the basis of
    how she dresses.

	Sharon

    re .83, so people will know she's not what they expect her to be, i.e.,
    straight?  
    
    Personally, I'd prefer to know whether people are gay or straight.  I
    think it would help me to understand them better, if we become friends.
    
    Lorna
    

    re .85 & .86
    
    
    Well put Sharon and Lorna

    Hahahaha...I was just thinking back a few months ago when I came in
    all dressed up. Usually I'm in jeans n' sneaks but this one particular
    day I was all decked out because I was going to a party that night.
    Some of the guys who usually just pass me in the hall and say hi
    stopped and talked to me on this particular day. People wouldn't just
    say "hi" like they normally do they'd say "oh hiiiii" like I was a new
    person and they knew I kinda looked familiar.  And then Halloween
    day I came in dressed as an "evil witch doctor" (I hear bongo drums
    in the distance every time I say/type those three words). When people
    saw me they either laughed or gave me werid looks.  Heeheehee...I got
    even with everyone who gave me werid looks becaue I put evil curses
    on them ;-)
    
    Dunno what point I'm trying to make here. I guess just that people
    (myself included :-)) make inferences about other people depending on
    how they dress. If I saw a woman with a funky haircut and a labrsys
    (sp?) earring my gaydar would go off and hit maybe a 2 on the Ritcher
    (sp?) scale. Now if I'm down in P-town I totally shut off my gaydar
    because the darn thing would be going off all over the place and drive
    me crazy ;-) There are enough distractions in P-town (most of them
    pleasant) as is.Geez it's amazing I haven't walked into any poles down
    there my head's turning so much.  If I saw a woman with a funky
    haircut, labrsys earring (or other womyn type jewlry like pink
    triangle), a tail, black shirt, jeans, wired-rimmed glasses (like Johnboy
    Walton glasses...no offense intended),leather jacket, and studded belt
    then my gaydar would hit about an 8 on the Ritcher scale!
    
    And if my gaydar goes off when I walking by a woman on the street and
    I turn my head to look at her after she's passed and she's looking back
    at me then yah my gaydar would probably go off the ritcher scale ;-)
    
    Laurie

    >Now if I'm down in P-town I totally shut off my gaydar because the darn
    >thing would be going off all over the place and drive me crazy ;-)
    
    Heh heh.  This happens to me everytime I go into a gay bar, or some
    gay-only or -mostly space.  At the start, I'm sitting around doing
    double takes every second, with a loud "woo-woo" going off constantly. 
    I can't even *think*!  It takes me about 15 minutes to turn off (or at
    least turn down) my Gaydar enough so that I can concentrate.  Then for
    a while after I leave it stays off, and I have to turn it back on. 
    (When it is turned off, I go around assuming everyone's gay, and that
    could get me in trouble.)
    
    D!

    re .88, speaking of walking into poles in P-town :-), a few years ago I
    walked smack into another human being in P-town because my head was
    turned....but it was turned because I was staring in awe at a gorgeous
    gay man.  :-)
    
    My mother was with me and she saw me smack into the other person (a
    tall middle-aged looking woman tourist type).  My mother shook her head
    and said, "Lorna, look where you're going.  He isn't interested in
    you."   I said, "I know.  But, I can still look and he's gorgeous."
    
    Intellectually, I find the idea of being a lesbian interesting, but in
    reality I'm hopelessly attracted to men.  Is that weird, normal, or
    what?!  :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    It's funny for me because I dress differently all the time so I don't
    know if anyone can figure me out.  I dress in slacks, jeans, dresses,
    long skirts. Lately, I've been wearing heels but they are lower than
    what I use to wear.  I've let my hair grow long and I do wear makeup
    sometimes.  
    
    I really go though phases in my life as to how I feel about how I am
    and how comfortable I am.  I dress depending on my mood.  
    
    Denise

    A few months ago my friend and I were in Boston trying to get to
    Gladday bookstore near Copley Place. Well, we're walking down Boylston
    not sure which direction it's in. In front of us were a group of
    about 10 guys who we're in really good physical shape and some of them
    had some leather on. Just as we agreed that we weren't sure which 
    direction it was we saw these group of guys. Well our gaydar went
    off the Ritcher scale and we looked at each other, without saying
    anything, and just smiled. We walked over to the group of guys and
    asked them if they knew where Gladday was. They told us and then one
    of the guys said "What made you think we'd know?".  Then he just
    winked and we all had a good laugh :-)
    
    I haven't walked into any poles or potholes down in P-town but I've
    come darn near close :-)
    
    Laurie

    Heh heh, that's funny.  That's like the time me and two friends were
    standing around Central Sq, waiting for something, I don't remember
    what.  Anyway, this guy saw us from across the street, came over and
    handed us a flyer for a Romanovsky and Phillips concert that evening
    (who I guess are gay performers.)  He wasn't giving flyers to everyone,
    just us.  We asked him why he chose us and he said "Well, isn't it
    appropriate?"  We said yes, but how did he know, was it that obvious? 
    He just shrugged and smiled.  :-)
    
    D!

    
    After being surrounded by 700 lesbians for a week, I can tell you
    I am having a _terribly_ difficult time becoming reaccustomed to
    the realization that not every woman I see is a lesbian.
    
    =%-}
    
    Carla (who wants to travel in packs of 700 *always*)
    

    
    Carla,
    
    I had the same problem after RHYTHMFEST '90....it's another world, eh?
    
    Welcome back,
    Nancy

    Everytime I come back home from P-town I go through this same
    "sexual orientation culture shock" if you will :-) After being
    so out all weekend it's hard coming back to a place where being
    out might not be well received or where you may be in physical danger
    for being gay. Geez...I'm just now starting to realize how stressful
    being out,coming out or trying to come out is. A friend of mine is
    under incredible stress right now at her job because her work
    environment is very homophobic and she's afraid about being out or 
    her co-workers finding out that she's gay.
    
    I remember one time my ex and I were in Central Square walking back to
    our car and I went to hold her hand. She said no don't do that here
    because someone might attack us. You hear about gay people being beat
    up all over the place so it's pretty scary being out sometimes. I
    always think "oh, that won't happen to me".  BUt you just never know.
    It's scary enough just being a woman and having to deal with all the
    violence against women that exists in the world. It makes me sad and it
    makes me very,very angry. Angry is a great motivator however. It's
    helped to force me out of the closet and into the streets!
    
    Laurie

    My own experiences of coming out and not coming out has varied through
    the years.  In my twenties I was very carefree and open and I was
    naturally open because I didn't think anything of it.  Unfortunately,
    thru the years you do find out that you can be hurt by strangers for
    holding hands in public.  You also find you can be ousted from a
    roommate situation because you thought it was safe to be who you are.
    
    I am now in my thirties (late) and I have been very protective of
    myself and my family.  I am not as carefree as I would wish to be about
    being affectionate in public and who I would confide in about me.
    
    However, I did take a step of coming out to a friend last week.  
    I feel it was a positive move on my part.  I feel very good
    about this and I know that she is truly a friend.
    
    I may feel that it is time to move forward and take some more chances
    about being true to myself.  I know that I do need to be careful so I
    do not get hurt my anyone because of my decisions.
    
    A Step at a time 

    re: .96
    
    Sounds like (the inverse of) my trips back to New York.  I can't relax,
    must be aware *all* the time.  Can't let my guard down for a second 
    like I can in the burbs or the country.  I walk differently, carry my 
    belongings differently, approach the human race differently.  I 
    attribute all this mostly to just being female.  I know it's not as 
    harrowing for men.  
    
    For me anger is never the answer.  Well, it was the time I was mugged
    while living there, but that's another story.  I can't afford the
    energy that anger requires.  I'd rather put my energy toward fighting
    the feeling of being defeated by the imminent cruelty.  Of course, it
    helps to travel in a pack or at least with a male companion and to not
    place myself in obviously dangerous situations.
    
    Nancy

I just read what Carla wrote about the cruise, paraphrased "in the workshop we
practiced telling 5 people we wanted to have sex with them and told 5 people
what our favorite sexual practices were".

At first I just read on then it hit me, in the context of women to women this
seemed an OK thing to do. Then I thought about if this had been a mixed sex 
group and it seemed scandalous to me. I'm still trying to sort out this reaction
on my part. It seems I have a wildly different "moral" response to same sex vs
different sex relationships. 

This reminds me of the N.H. politco who, when accused of watching a sex act
between two women, replied "it wasn't sex, they were both women". liesl

    Been meaning to add this for a while:
    
    On Nov. 25th in the Sunday edition of The Herald (local Everett, WA
    newspaper), they featured two articles on lesbian and gay commitment or
    bonding ceremonies.  One article was about a lesbian couple and the
    other on a gay couple.  In the same section they put an announcement in
    that they were changing the title of the pages where they put in the
    wedding announcements from "The Wedding Book" to "Celebrations" and
    would be accepting announcements other than weddings and engagements to
    reflect other long term commitments being made by people.
    
    So the next Sunday (Dec. 2) on the Celebrations page was the
    announcement of the commitment ceremony for the lesbian couple they
    featured in the article the previous week.
    
    I figured they were just catching up to a trend started in other
    newspapers, but the other night they had a feature on NPR on this and
    it appears that they may be the first paper to do this.  Although we
    are near Seattle, the paper serves Snohomish county which is much more
    rural and blue collar than King County (where Seattle is).

    
    Additionally, the Eastside's (very yuppie, conservative, trendy,
    white, heterosexual) newspaper has stated their support of same-
    sex announcements, although none have been printed, nor perhaps
    submitted, yet.
    
    Carla
    

    I wanted to add something to this note even though it's been quiet
    for a while since I think I might have been the het* woman who
    made the remark that prompted Justine's original question.  I did
    say something similar in this notes file over the summer.
    
    When I said I often feel criticized for liking men, I was
    referring to the kind of feeling I get when other women say "Smash
    the patriarchy" or, as a recently divorced non-DEC friend said,
    "All men are creeps, they're just out to get you.  We should ship
    them all to Antarctica."  Or the humorous slogans like "A woman
    needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle."
    
    I like other women, but not in a sexual sense, and while I'm sure
    I wouldn't die or despair if I had to be out of contact with men
    for the rest of life, I wouldn't enjoy it, either.  Something I
    value very much would be missing.  And in that sense I do need men
    around me to interact with in many ways on many levels.  I want to
    change the patriarchy to something egalitarian and productive, a
    system that nourishes all of us so we flourish, but I don't want
    to smash it or the misguided men (not all men and not only men)
    who maintain it.  I want to persuade them, educate them, heal
    them.  
    
    I don't know how to explain the feeling any better than this; as I
    write, I think that "criticize" probably isn't the right word,
    either, since that implies something specific that should be
    changed and I'm talking about a very vague attitude.  
    
    I've felt like this more often when I'm with  divorced het women
    than with lesbians, so I certainly didn't intend that implication. 
    I'm sorry if people took it that way, or if I phrased it that
    carelessly.  
    
    --bonnie
    
    * I quit calling myself "straight" when a gay friend pointed out
    that that had a hidden implication that gays were bent or
    something. 

    --bonnie
    
    ditto
    
    bj

    re .104, "divorced het woman" - wow, a new label!
    
    Lorna
    

    Didn't mean it to be a label, Lorna, just a description . . .
    
    --bonnie

    I've been keeping some distance from Womannotes lately... but I did
    want to poke my nose in on this one.
    
    I'm homophobic. True confessions time. Whaddaya know. 
    
    I'm also sexist.
    
    And racist to boot.
    
    I've got incredible xenophobic tendencies, far more prominent, in fact,
    than my sexism. And I've got the makings of a first-class classist
    snob.
    
    I consider these traits to be part of who I am. Things to watch for.
    Things to be on guard against when it comes to valuing differences. But
    NOT things to pretend about. Pretending not to be any of the things
    I've named gets me in worse trouble than admitting it... even though
    admitting it gets me in more trouble than knowing and keeping quiet. I
    guess I'm trying to lead the way and be brave here.
    
    So, what's my point? We have an unusual situation in the file. A
    minority group is not being as "quiet" as we're all accustomed to.
    Their feeling out their difference, and exposing it, and showing their
    level of comfort with it, and implicitly asking that we do the same.
    
    And it doesn't sit well with everyone.
    
    Sometimes its important to think back to ANY moment in your life when
    you've been a "minority", and remember what it felt like. It comes in
    all forms. Sometimes its being the oldest or youngest, or the only one
    who doesn't like "X". Or the only one who does like Y. (Anchovies come
    to mind!) 
    
    Next think of how much easier it is when there are 5 of you
    "minorities". All of a sudden, you aren't alone. Maybe the 5 of you can
    get your own anchovy pizza, and sit and eat it with all the non-anchovy
    people. You can be in the same space, while being different. AND,
    you're less likely to have to listen to all the "Eyew! Anchovies!
    YUCK!" comments that are more prevelant when you're alone.
    
    Now, think about being the majority. Say you're one of those "I don't
    do anchovies" people. Did you ever find yourself going around, checking
    to see that everyone was anti-anchovies, and then TALKING about how
    gross they are? And maybe, when there's only one anchovy eater, you
    still feel free to make anti-anchovy remarks. I mean, after all, they
    are kinda slimy and repulsive. Or, if I can be more delicate, they're
    rather salty, and not to MY taste...
    
    Maybe this analogy doesn't hit home for you. I'm writing it because I
    can think of times when I've done it. Over something as trivial as
    anchovies. And I can think of times when I've done it over something as
    XXXXX as race. Or gender. I look around, check to make sure that I
    won't be offending anyone, and then I go ahead and air my anti-Y
    viewpoint, comfortable in knowing that everyone else feels somewhat the
    same way.
    
    BUT!!!! What happens when there are too many pro-anchovy people? 
    
    Well, I get uncomfortable. Not only do I have to keep from making the
    anti-anchovy remarks, BUT I have ALSO to value differences. I have to
    make room for (GASP) pro-anchovy sentiments. Like "gawd, there's
    nothing better in the world than an anchovy pizza!" Something I
    obviously can't relate to. Its not that I'm a minority. Its just that I
    have to make space for an ACCEPTABLE AND SIMULTANEOUSLY DIFFERENT
    opinion.
    
    There are lots of times in my life when I'm ready to deal with
    differences. And there are times when I'm NOT. And often, in my private
    circle of acquaintances, I'm not always ready for that jarringly
    different opinion.
    
    Let me get concrete. Sometimes, when I'm sitting around talking about
    the positive impact of the Islamic faith on black Americans, I'm NOT
    prepared for someone to start saying how much they hate Louis
    Farrakhan. Sometimes when I'm sitting around talking about how few good
    black men there are, I'm NOT ready to hear one of my white girlfriends
    talking about the fact that she's dating a black guy. And when I'm
    gossiping about great sexual experiences I have known, I'm not prepared
    to hear about someone who enjoyed being tied and whipped. Or anally
    penetrated.
    
    But all of those counter opinions are VALID. I just don't always want
    them in my space.
    
    Well, the next thing to deal with is the fact that not all space is my
    space to control. And one of the spaces that is NOT mine to control is
    Womannotes. Womannotes is for all women. And unfortunately, its even
    for men. So, I have to come in here prepared for people with different
    opinions. The only things we all have in common: working for Digital,
    and writing in English. Its not a lot. And its something everyone who
    comes in here has to deal with.
    
    Some people are going to deal with it by trying to enforce a dominant
    opinion. Some people are going to deal with it by identifying and
    championing like voices. Some people aren't going to stay, and some
    people aren't going to go.
    
    But womannotes is going to continue. And it will continue to be a place
    with many different voices, sometimes discordant. I can understand that
    it can be jarring to be confronted with differing opinions on concepts
    that used to be considered facts. Like: "homosexuality is immoral". 
    
    Nobody says that here. But its something many of us were taught. So,
    its actually understandable that it requires adjustment when lesbianism
    is not as forcibly suppressed here as its been in society in the past.
    
    Let's try to get used to it though. Because in the long run, getting
    used to difference in one area, can help us in other areas as well.
    

Since Justine mentioned we should bring up in this topic I'll go ahead and start.

Some of the response I hear from strict lesbians makes me feel like my desires
toward men are unclean. Sort of a reverse discrimination which I can understand
though I don't always accept it. I can see why there would be hard feelings on
both sides about bi's. Though I consider myself  (this is for Frederick to know
where I'm comming from) a 2 on the Kinsey scale I would not become involved with
a woman because I prefer men and it wouldn't be fair. It would be like taking
vanilla ice cream when you really want chocolate. The vanilla is Ok but...just
not what you really wanted and it dosen't satisfy your hunger.

I have never seen woman generically as a superior being to man generically. I
don't feel any special "power" in groups of women. I have no understanding of
sepratists of either sex. Some things I prefer women companions for and some
things men. 

There was a time, when I was "afraid" of being seen as a lesbian. It was partly
a reaction to not understanding my orientation and partly a fear of having men
look past me as a potential partner. To me, this last is the monumental differ-
ence between lesbian and straight women. I react to men in a gut level manner
that "always", however briefly, passes them through a "potential mate" check.
Most of the time the NO box is checked almost immediately. For those other men
I know I respond just ever so slightly differently, even at work. 

We (meaning women) aren't supposed to be like that are we? Men are the animals
that think of sex constantly, not us. So much for that bolony. I may have no
intention of ever doing anything about a man I'm attracted to but I can enjoy
that slight feeling and play fantasy games when a meeting gets boring. 

I think men are afraid of our sexuality. Lesbians personify this sexuality and
act out the role men see as theirs, that of sexual preditor. They are a reminder
that women can be the sexual aggressor. I think a lot of people of both sexes
would prefer not to see this. Just some thoughts, liesl

    re: .108
    
    Thanks, Lauren, for your note.  I think that it probably touches on
    feelings we all share here at Digital.  
    
    In reading your note, I recall reading recently about a woman manager
    at DEC, who decided to leave the company because she felt she had to
    "recognize and value" (not her words but emphasis by me) the homosexual
    lifestyle and that didn't fit into her life as a Christian.  
    
    Now, I don't recall that Valuing Differences meant that you had to turn
    your whole life upside-down when you are involved in work-related
    activities.  I means to me that people are supposed to work together to
    get the job done, no matter the difference.  We may have to alter our
    working habits or learn something new about people, for goodness sakes.
    
    I wouldn't expect a person to change their life and become totally
    accepting because they have a piece of information about me.  I do
    expect them, in the work envirnment, to respect me as an individual.
    
    Anyway,  I thought that the woman made the right choice to leave DEC if
    she couldn't accept the Valuing Differences philosophy.  But she seemed
    to be blaming DEC and the philosophy for her having to leave her job.
    I feel sorry that she feels that way.
    
    sue

    
    Re .108
    I appreciate your note. I feel that it was a brave and honest comment
    in this forum. 
    
    'gail

    re: 108
    
    Great note, Lauren.
    
    Christine