Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    Mike,
    
    You may not realise it, but your questions are EXACTLY what Lee said
    was NOT the topic she wanted to discuss in her note!
    
    Lee,
    
    Here in Switzerland, we have an "Introduction to DEC" day after we've
    been in the company around 3 months (more or less). One possibility
    would be to include a session on "Harassment in the Workplace, how to
    handle it", which could be comprised of a fairly brief, introduced by 
    Personnel, statement of Digital's Policy on harassment, and inviting a
    discussion/questions, maybe proposing some scenarios of what could
    happen and how to handle it. This, though it wouldn't help people
    presently in the workplace, would have the advantage of getting a
    message to ALL the new people coming in, regardless of sex.
    
    Though your idea of a "support network" seems a good one, I have more
    questions than answers on how it should be put in place:
    
    - Officially ? Semi-officially?
    - By private individuals or by Personnel (now called HRO) ?
    - How to make the group known (Intro day, for new employees, or mail
      to "all users", or a flyer to all employees) ?
    - How to make people who have been harassed TRUST this group. I find it
      extremely difficult to trust anybody in an official position, and I
      doubt I'm the only person in this case ...
    
    From my perspective the biggest dilemna would be:
    
    - If it's not official, then lots of people won't get to know about it;
    - If it's official, some people at least won't trust it...
    
    Joana
                                                  

    re Mike's questions
    
    What I define as harassment is irrelevant.  What I would like to
    discuss is the post-[event] trauma and some way to minimize it.
    I have described the set of feelings in .0 and have done so frequently
    in v1.  I am not at liberty to discuss events which happened at DEC,
    Mike; those are PERSONNEL CONFIDENTIAL and I don't feel like being
    fired, thanks.
    
    re Joana
    
    Including some literature or a film or some such in the Intro to DEC
    stuff is good, but I am not too sure that would make an impression deep
    enough to be recalled when you suddenly find yourself THERE, you know?
    
    I've run into soooo many young women who are straight out of tech
    school, and who feel invulnerable (I was one of them not that long
    ago).  We *know* a lot of things we have been told or have read
    casually, but somehow they never hit home until we or or our confidants
    faced it personally.
    
    For example: I *know* you're not supposed to take a bath after being 
    raped.  Yet I took one all the same.  Then I beat myself up for doing
    such a ninny-ish thing, when I should have *known* better.
    
    While I don't want to force "coping info" down the throats of young
    women about to conquer the world, I want to make REAL sure they can
    tell someone if (when) it happens.  And I think we can do better than hand
    out a pamphlet.  Your suggestion of what the preliminary talk would
    include sounds pretty good though...
    
    Re support group & its structure
    
    Mmmm, I don't see an official support group as the answer.  The idea
    was more along the lines of: 1) Harassment and rape victims do not wear
    some identifying mark, and they don't talk about it, even with friends,
    except in VERY special circumstances; 2) If it happens to you, you feel
    alone, and horrible; 3) let's create a "VERY special" circumstance where 
    you get to talk about it - maybe it will help you feel less alone -
    you'll still feel horrible - if (when) it happens to you.
    
    I don't see myself EVER offering to provide support for the immediate
    [event]aftermath for a stranger - that is hard work and extremely
    draining on my emotions.  But I *do* see myself willing to spend, hmm,
    5 afternoons a year talking with new hires about my experiences (and
    using the mantra "call eap, call eap").  I *don't* see myself willing
    to do that if there is a single man in the room.

    If that conversation were to happen, then perhaps that would help
    people to remember their OWN support network (mom&dad, best friend,
    etc) and USE it when faced with the overwhelming.

    Oh dear.  I couldn't imagine before now speaking up on behalf of mike z.
    But I thought the substance of his questions here were was quite reasonable.
    
    				- Bruce

    Herb, I don't read Mike's question to be what constitutes harassment in
    general (which would indeed be inappropriate and a derailer!) but
    rather what form did the harassment take in the exemplary cases used by
    Lee.  For example, were the women propositioned or touched or what. 
    Seems a legitimate question to me, on its face, though not one that
    need be answered to forward the discussion.
    
    						=maggie

   While I believe that an examination of Lee T's informal study is in order, I 
do not believe that it is appropriate to do so here. My understanding of 
68.0 (Please correct me if I'm wrong, Lee T) is that Lee T mentioned this study
in order to provide some background and insight into hir motivations for 
starting this Topic. For this reason, my belief is that an examination of 
existing training for new female employees, the institution of new training 
programs, and the creation, accessability, and effectiveness of support 
systems for victims of sexual harrassment should be discussed in this Topic 
without being sidetracked by discussing what constituted harrassment in Lee T's
informal study. I reiterate: it is important to examine Lee T's study, but such
an examination in this Topic can undermine the purpose of this Topic.

A proposition (No, not of THAT kind!! ;-)):



    That Lee T start a seperate Topic where hir results can be outlined -- 
within the limits that discretion and confidentiality for the victims will 
allow hir. In that Topic the issues of what constituted harrassment in Lee 
T's study can be explored.

   If this idea is unacceptable, then perhaps someone else can start a 
Topic about what constitutes sexual harrassment and other "informal 
studies" can be examined there. Let this Topic be marked as allowing only 
supportive replies -- which will hopefully help prevent this important 
discussion from becoming sidetracked too much.



 As to the Topic at hand, I believe that I have something to contribute:

    While the theoretical "sticklers" mentioned in 68.0 may have legitimate 
claims concerning the possibility of men being sexually harrassed in the 
workplace, all that I have learned about such behavior indicates that it 
happens too rarely to men to warrent the creation of any support group or 
training program. Approximately eight years ago, at Bell Laboratories, I did 
something which I thought was innocent but which I later discovered could have
been (and was) interpreted as sexual harrassment. Since that time, I have 
learned (and continue to learn) everything I could about the many forms 
this problem can take. One of my first interests was to determine if it 
happens to men. I learned that while it is equally possible for a man to be 
harrassed as a woman, it is far less likely to happen for a variety of 
reasons -- not the least of which is the rarity of situations where a woman 
will be in a position where she has the power to harrass someone.

   Based on the above, I believe that efforts toward creating support 
groups must focus on making new female employees aware of any support 
groups available to them should they be harrassed, as well as reaching and
supporting female victims. While sensitivity should be extended to any male 
victims, I do not believe that training or support groups are in order.

   A question for this community: how can male employees assist in 
understanding/supporting women who have been harrassed? Some of us have the 
sensitivity to understand, but know of no way to reach out and help -- 
especially since the general perception is that men cannot comprehend this 
experience that women go through -- and many women who have gone through it 
tend to be distrustful of thir male coworkers (a natural reaction, of 
course).

                                                  -Robert Brown III

    If there are women's discussion groups or support groups in your plant
    could they be a focal point for dealing with this problem? They could
    sponsor a program on harassment for example, and be sure that the
    younger new hire women are encouraged to come. At the end of such a
    program one person could volunteer to hold a smaller meeting with
    women who had experienced harassment problems and who wanted to talk
    further about them.
    
    Bonnie

I dunno; who's gonna encourage them to come? If most managers were sensitive to
these issues, there would be less of a need (or am I being overly cynical?).
And personnel gets blown off by engineers all the time. Maybe EAP talks? I
think EAP gets a fair amount of respect. Maybe separate valuing differences
days for new hires of each gender?
	Mez

    Mez
    
    There are independant womens groups in many plants now. They could
    sponsore the workshop(s) and get names of new hires from personel.
    
    Bonnie

	I for one would rather prevent a woman from having to deal with
	post harasment trama. By all means provide support groups for
	women, but if we really want to fix anything we have to stop the
	harrasment before it happens. This would appear to be a good enough
	reason to train everyone is what is and is not acceptable behavior
	vis a vi "sexual" roles and relationships in the work place. 

				Alfred

    This is one of the few times when I find myself being pessimistic.
    I don't believe that anything can be done to help the young prepare
    for the brickbats which life will throw their way.  I know that
    *I* would not have listened in the early years of my career, it
    simply couldn't/wouldn't happen to me.  Until it does, nothing anyone
    says will be helpful in preparing for harrassment.  That is a large part
    of why it is so traumatic.
    
    On the bright side, I've yet to be a victim of any overtly harassing
    behavior (after about 13 years of industry experience, in multiple
    companies).  A victim of anti-female discrimination, yes, but not
    of harassment.
    
    Alison

I'm a "relatively young" employee (25) and I'd appreciate learning           
from other women about the topics mentioned in 68.0 and others.

While I agree that one can never be adequately "prepared" for something
like this, I would certainly rather be educated and hear about others' 
experiences and learn than to wait until I needed a support group after 
the fact (this isn't to say that those who need support groups shouldn't 
have them, rather it's to say that education and awareness are a good idea).
                                                                          
I'm not into being paranoid or anticipating problems but it never hurts
to be aware.

-Jill

    These are good ideas.  It would also be a good idea if every manager
    at DEC was REQUIRED to take the course that explains the sexual
    harrassment issue and policy.  It's about time!
    
    Nina

    In our organization, we are.  It was excellent and lead to a lively
    discussion at the following staff meeting.
    
    mdh

<    In our organization, we are.  It was excellent and lead to a lively
<    discussion at the following staff meeting.
    
Ditto for the Colorado Customer Support Center, or *at least* our district.

        Carol

    
    ...as was I when I became a teamleader.. 

    
    Training for managers is a definite need, as they are the one's
    in the middle of the power structure.  And as I found out, too 
    easily the cause of the harrasment to begin with.  Many years 
    ago, at Dec, a married manager (my supervisor's boss) came on to
    me and asked me out.  When I refused, he tried again a little 
    later with the implication that I could have a promotion out of
    the deal--I still refused even though I was frightened by the 
    experience.  And no, I did not lead him on.  I was (still am)
    friendly to all my co-workers and had just come out to some of
    them.  I did not "dress up" to provoke anything, in fact I always
    come to work dressed in casual clothes.  I was just the victim of
    an everyday case of sexual harrassment/power play.  
    
    Debbi

    Do they have these classes yet? Have they materialized, or
    are they still on the agenda for site specific women's groups?
    
    Cindi

    Try asking your boss if he thinks you should talk to personnel,
    without mentioning your suspicions re. the source. You might
    also want to have a hardcopy of the P&P sections relevant.
    (If it _is_ him he'll get the hint)

    And keep the sticky note in your *locked* file cabinet.  Mark this
    date in your datebook.
    
    Document everything that happens from this point on.  It's your best
    defense, if you should need it.
    
    Good luck.  Let's hope you don't need it...
    
    judy

    
    This note was originally posted with the author's name attached.  Since
    this person's manager is an identifiable Digital employee, and this
    case may be investigated by Corporate at some point, the moderators of
    womannotes are reposting this note without the identifying information to
    preserve anonymity of all involved (with the author's permission).  
    This enables the woman to get support, without womannotes being at
    fault for any inappropriate disclosure.
    
    -Jody
    
    ====================================================================
                                   -< help. >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I need some advice.
    
    I'm putting this here, because it involves sexual harassment.
    
    I walked into my office this morning, and, as usual, have a pile
    of stuff on my chair from my boss, things to do today.
    
    I picked up a two page memo, stapled together, with a note from
    my boss to research something listed in the memo.
    
    On the inside page of the memo, there was one of those ubiquitous
    sticky notes, and on it were the words:
    
    HOW ABOUT SITTING ON MY FACE SOMEDAY
    
    I feel *really* sick to my stomach.  I felt relatively safe here.
    I have no way of knowing if it came from my boss...I'd like to 
    think it didn't...he's only been around for a couple of months
    and I tend to like working for him.  Someone else could easily have
    put it there.
    
    I don't really want to sit here feeling squeamish.  What can I do?
    Should I show it to my boss, and tell him how upset and angry this
    kind of thing makes me?  What else could I do?
    
    HELP.

    
    Digital Harassment Policy 6.03 states...
    
    "Individuals who believe they have been subjected to harassment from
    either a co-worker or a sueprvisor should make it clear that such
    behavior is offensive to them.  If the behavior continues, they should
    bring the matter to the attention of the appropriate manager and/or
    their Personnel Representative.  In fulfilling their obligation to
    maintain a positive and productive work environment, managers and
    supervisors are expected to halt any harassment of which they become
    aware by restating the Company Policy and, where necessary, by more
    direct disciplinary action"
    
    Here's the advice they'd usually give to you (I took a course which
    included this kind of stuff)
    
    1.  talk to your manager...
    2.  talk to local Personnel management
    3.  talk to a corporate resource
    		Corporate EEO/AA/VD
    		organizational EEO manager telephone (DTN 251-1753?)
    4.  use the open door process
    5.  harassment *and retaliation* are against Company Policy
    
    
    
    I say that it's kind of a two-edged sword - if you complain to your
    boss and it WAS your boss, he could disavow all knowledge, and maybe
    even do it again if it seems to get your goat.  But by reporting it to
    him first, if he did do it he'll realize you take it seriously and
    don't want that kind of stuff going on and will probably stop.  If he
    didn't do it, he should be behind you 100%.  Either way I'd also report
    wht happened to your personnel person just to have it on record that it
    occured, date, time, etc, in case it ever occurs again you can have a
    calendar of events.  
    
    Good luck.....
    
    -Jody
    

    The little yellow sticky probably has fingerprints on it.  Do not
    touch it, and protect it as much as possible.  These fingerprints
    can be developed with a quick spray of ninhydrin and a minute or
    two in a warm oven.  Also, Digital has at least one handwriting
    expert on staff.  Thus, neither you nor anyone else should worry
    about a falsely-based accusation.
    
    From the above, you can guess my advice: Whether you go to your boss
    or not, go to Personnel, show them the note (in situ, put inside one
    of those clear plastic wrapper thingies, for preference), explain that
    you consider this harassment (just for the record), and ask that
    Security be brought in (because they would be the ones with access to
    ninhydrin, and the handwriting expert).  Either maintain possession
    of the note, or keep it under lock and key, or get a descriptive receipt
    from the person (if any) you give it to.  Make a xerographic copy
    (through the plastic cover).  (The goal is to maintain the "chain of
    evidence"; this is very important.)
    
    							Ann B.

Get Security involved immediately, through Personnel.  Fingerprinting
technology is great these days, but prints do fade and become mussed by
friction, even with the plastic covering.

-d

Re: .-2, .-1

general question... Once you have the fingerprints from the paper, what
then?  Can Digital force an employee to submit to a fingerprint test, for
whatever reason?  What if fingerprints from multiple people show up?
Could you tell?  It seems like this approach has some serious problems
with it.  A second curious question... Why does DEC have a handwriting
expert on hand?  Is it for this sort thing?  

-Joe

    Harassment is not only against Digital policy, it is against the law.
    
    D!

    Digital is lible(sp?) for actions taken by its employees while they
    are acting in their work capacities.  My SO gave me the latin term
    for it this morning, but I can not remember it now.  Since harrassment
    is illegal, and I have learned that in some places it constitutes
    4th degree assault... If Digital does not adequately follow through
    on investigations of this crime, they can be sued. 
    
    This is the ideal, and one would like to imagine that promt and 
    full corrective measures would be taken in all cases.
    
    However, the time, energy, effort, reproach required to persue it
    can alone take your productivity so low that persuit itself can
    create "just cause" for you to be fired.  In short, you wind
    up tired, more hurt, with a dull aching pain and that
    makes it even harder to persue.
    
    In short, IMO, Dec must make a decision, since they can not
    change the fundamentals of the individuals involved... you can
    stay and live with the ache, you can try to have the agent fired
    (which is hard when they are popular), or you can run.
    
    None are easy.
    
    I can only imagine how many women have to go through it.
    
    ... and still there are those that try and make you the heavy.
    (Proverbs 11:29- He that troubeleth his own house shall inherit the
    wind.);
    
    Cindi

    You can not be fired for pursuing an harrassment case (in this state).
    
    Well, you *can*, but it is considered a wrongful discharge.
    
    
    E Grace

    But would the reason for firing be "pursuing an harassment case"?  I 
    think that "low productivity" or "failure to meet job requirements" 
    would be cited, if in fact the pusuit interfered with work.
    
    aq
    

    The difficulty, or insidious nature of it is... the discharge would
    not have cause of "persuing a charge".  They have better lawyers
    than that.
    
    As my SO said this morning.  "Whether the cause for discharge is
    really retaliatory or not is not important.  What is important is
    can you prove it in court? ... do you have the funds to persue it
    in court?"
    
    The scenario I offer is:
    The time spent persuing takes away from work time.
    The energy lost from handling it takes away from job perspective.
    The fear of continued infraction or retaliation hampers comfortability
    and thought.
    If you can still get a 2 or 1 rating, with all of this on your head
    you are lucky. Sometimes it feels as though only that could even
    remotely save you from a package sweep.  And even that is no guarantee.
    
    Just some thoughts,
    Cindi

    In 1980, I worked at the University of Kentucky at a tobacco institute. 
    There was a director and assistant director who were hired away from
    Harvard.  The place was pretty much in a shambles of charges and
    countercharges during the year that I worked there.  The charges
    included altering research data, fraud, and sexual harassment.
    
    It was my first "real" job when I got out of college.  What a horrible
    learning experience!  That's where I learned to write it down when
    someone says something to you.  To try to get witnesses and so on.  The
    place was filled with what I called sexual tension when I gave my
    deposition to the University's lawyer.
    
    I later found out that the assistant director and director had divided
    the women in the building up.  I was one of "Larry's girls."  I had
    always wondered why "Hal" wouldn't return my calls, speak to me in the
    hall, or respond to a direct question.  It made it impossible to get my
    work done.  But Larry would have been all over Hal if he interacted
    with me.
    
    At that point in my life, I couldn't believe that responsible men (one
    was an MD) were acting that way.    
    
    Both of them were later fired, on the fraud charges.  Since we couldn't
    prove most of our sexual harassment charges, they were never pursued.
    
    judy

    
    
    Just to let people know, Digital does fire employees for sexual
    harrassment. I know, my wife, who is a Tobin employee had a Digital
    employee fired for sexual harrassment in 1984. So they do take it
    seriously.
    
    -brian-

    Re .35
    
    Some are fired,
       some are not.
    
    

>    Digital is lible(sp?) for actions taken by its employees while they
>    are acting in their work capacities.  

Perhaps.  But does that give Digital any right to fingerprint someone?  How
do you use the fingerprints obtained from the paper without having something
to compare it with?  How do you justify taking anyone prints?

>    4th degree assault... If Digital does not adequately follow through
>    on investigations of this crime, they can be sued. 

The person harrassed should file a complaint with the police if they so choose.
Digital is NOT a member of the police.
    
Suppose someone had money stolen from an office near you.  Do you feel that 
Digital has the right to fingerprint you solely because you are near the office 
where the money was taken?  Theft is a crime; Digital should persue that as
best it can.  Were would you draw the line on such things?

And just who around here is trying to make the victim the 'heavy'?  No one,
including myself, that I can see.

-Joe

    re .-1
    
    That becomes -whether intended or not- an attempt to change the
    discussion from protecting oneself from abuse to a discussion about
    'defendant' civil rights (fingerprinting). 
    It's an important discussion but I don't think should be part of this
    discussion. If you want to have THAT discussion I urge you to start a
    new topic devoted to that aspect.
    
    				regards
    				herb

>    That becomes -whether intended or not- an attempt to change the
>    discussion from protecting oneself from abuse to a discussion about
>    'defendant' civil rights (fingerprinting). 

The person this happened to is being told to save the paper, seal it up,
get it fingerprinted, etc.  My comments apply very much to this.  What can
be done with it after all that effort?  If the answer is NOTHING, then why
do it?  The time is better spent getting information that CAN be used.

-Joe

Digital doesn't have the right to require an employee to give
fingerprints.  Digital *does* have the right to *ask* an employee if
that employee is willing to give fingerprints oin order to assist in an
investigation.  Same with the cops.  In '83, when I was taken in on
suspicion of murder, they asked me if I'd let them print me.  I asked
what if I said no, and they said they couldn't make me without booking
me.  Once I had that info, I let them do it.

Only an employee who has something to fear from being printed would be
likely to refuse, in my opinion - having one's prints on file is a good
thing, not a bad thing.  My prints are on file as a result of the '83
thing, but they were already filed when I was a kid.  (Having your kids
printed is an excellent way to assist law enforcement agencies in 
finding them if they are lost, or in identifying them if, Goddess
forbid, they are killed.)

-d

    Re: Finger printing-
    At Merril Lynch, it was part of the hiring practice, and your badge
    to take your prints.  Even for the summer hires.  I imagine it was
    to help the company "police" certain aspects of their work force.
    
    I do not see why it is not a part of Dec policy as well, nor do
    I comprehend what legalities are "violated" if any.
    If a work-station is stolen, Digital security is the primary instrument
    in locating it.  The local police come in much later.  For the
    company, I imagine that is preferred. It is good for them to keep
    as much in house as they possibly can.
    
    They avoid publicity and juristiction issues.  How would it look
    to you, and how good would it be on your business to have your
    manager carted out of his office by the local police?  How do
    you think security would look if they had to hand over access
    to any local police man, because a sick or uninformed individual
    can not keep their hands or untoward intentions to themselves?
    
    The more the company as a whole assists the victims, the more
    they can insulate themselves from damages in the event that a 
    suit is brought against the harrasser.  They would still be liable
    but they could demonstrate that they did as much as they could,
    as soon as they could, with all deliberate speed.  
    
     ...and if the prints were to verify the crime, it is not your
    police office that can rectify the situation within the confines
    of the job setting.  Only Digital and Personnel or management can
    do that... so they keep final say anyway.
    
    Most of what I have said is IMO...
       and I may be biased.
    
    However, whatever is needed to stop him should be done, if you want
    digital, or to have your police force to come in and do it is
    irrelevant.  If it will help her, just get it done.
    
    Cindi

    Let's say that Security finds nice clear prints on the Post-It(tm).
    There are also prints on the memo the Post-It was found in.  And
    prints on other memos.  They can then determine if the prints on
    the Post-It match any of those on pages that <Whosis> knows were
    handled by her manager.
    
    If they don't, <Whosis> can come out of her full-body cringe, because
    she *knows* it's not her manager (and maybe she even figures she doesn't
    have to worry about it at all anymore  (Notice the "maybe".)).  The
    prints might even match those on other Post-Its that have been turned
    in by other women, giving Security more data to happily chew away at.
    
    If they do match, <Whosis> has an open-and-shut case of sexual
    harassment, and the amount of effort *she* has to spend pursuing it
    is� minimal, while Security and Personnel get to hustle.
    
    						Ann B.
    
    � Should be.

	
		I have been a Digital a long long time, and they're many
	issues that I would say you shouldn't bring to personnel. In the
	past I've even said I wouldn't bring send my dog to personnel with 
	a problem because of the conflict with management. All that said
	I have no question in my mind that you should have no fear of the system
	when it comes to what happened. It was vile and illegal and not subject
	to interpretation. To not bring this forward will most likely impair
	your ability to work effectively where you are and to move would be
	unfair to you and to the next person. It is in both your and Digital's
	interest to report this. I would stake my job on the fact that reporting
	this incident would not place you in any jepardy. I would advise you to 
	go to personnel in confidence as the possibility exists that it was
	your boss and you don't want however did it to be aware that anybody
	is looking. Even if the person is caught this time it, the data may
	get him caught later, because somebody doing soemthing this sick isn't
	going to change any time soon. 
		If there's anything I can do to help give you the confidence 
	to report this please feel free to contact me.

    Re: .42
    
    Capitalize that SHOULD.  Maybe highlight it.
    
    ----------------------------
    I wish that things were better than they are.
    
    Cindi

>    prints on other memos.  They can then determine if the prints on
>    the Post-It match any of those on pages that <Whosis> knows were
>    handled by her manager.

And any other number of people. It does NOT show that they are her manager's 
prints.
    
>    If they don't, <Whosis> can come out of her full-body cringe, because
>    she *knows* it's not her manager (and maybe she even figures she doesn't
>    have to worry about it at all anymore  (Notice the "maybe".)).  

Sure, and then the manager gets to worry about having this sort of thing done.
Loss of trust after the fact (Yes, I see that there is a bigger loss now).

>    If they do match, <Whosis> has an open-and-shut case of sexual
>    harassment, and the amount of effort *she* has to spend pursuing it
>    is� minimal, while Security and Personnel get to hustle.

Again, I do not see it as open-and-shut.  One hopes that it would/could be.
But life never seems to be that simple.


-Joe

    Joe,
    
    I don't understand.  If NONE of the prints on the Post-It match
    ANY of those on the memo, how does this lead to any confusion
    about the manager's innocence?  (Any other finding requires further
    worries, questions, and work about the manager, but not that one.)
    
    Where does this "then the manager gets to worry about having this
    sort of thing done." come in?  Do you really think that her manager
    is so stupid that he would think that a note in a memo *he* wrote,
    and that *he* placed on her chair should *never* be considered to be
    produced by him as well?  I think that most people are smart enough
    to direct their indignation against the perpetrator in this case,
    rather than the victim, don't you?
    
    						Ann B.

>    I do not see why it is not a part of Dec policy as well, nor do
>    I comprehend what legalities are "violated" if any.
>    If a work-station is stolen, Digital security is the primary instrument
>    in locating it.  

When such a thing is stolen, security does not go around finger printing
people.  They do not get to search suspected employees houses.  The police,
with a court order showing probable cause, does that.  The reason it is not
policy?  Perhaps the same reason drug testing isn't generally done.  People
have a right to privacy and want the compant they work for to respect that.

>    company, I imagine that is preferred. It is good for them to keep
>    as much in house as they possibly can.

If they started fingerprinting people in cases like this, I am quite sure
it will NOT stay 'in house'.  They would get vast amounts of publicity over
such a thing.
    
>    They avoid publicity and juristiction issues.  How would it look
>    to you, and how good would it be on your business to have your
>    manager carted out of his office by the local police?  

If a murder occurred on company property, you could not get away with this.
If a crime does occur, and Digital attempts to sweep it under the rug, there
could be much more serious consequences than bad publicity.

>    The more the company as a whole assists the victims, the more
>    they can insulate themselves from damages in the event that a 
>    suit is brought against the harrasser.  

Then why not take the suspect and interrogate them?  Perhaps torture something
out of them?  Off the wall? Yes... but where is the line drawn in helping the
victim?  It should not be 'anything goes'. 

>     ...and if the prints were to verify the crime, it is not your
>    police office that can rectify the situation within the confines
>    of the job setting.  Only Digital and Personnel or management can
>    do that... so they keep final say anyway.

But as was pointed out, it is also a crime.
    
>    Most of what I have said is IMO...

ALL of what I said is IMO :-).

>       and I may be biased.
>    
>    However, whatever is needed to stop him should be done, if you want
>    digital, or to have your police force to come in and do it is
>    irrelevant.  

It is quite relevant!!!!  The police are the ones empowered to act, not
Digital.  I am totally disagree that 'whatever needs to be done' is the
correct way to approach any problem.  The end does NOT justify the means.

BTW: To make comment on the actual issue:  I DO believe that the issue
     should be persued and that the note write be found, whoever they may
     be.

>    I don't understand.  If NONE of the prints on the Post-It match
>    ANY of those on the memo, how does this lead to any confusion
>    about the manager's innocence?  

Well, lack of match does not really show innocense either :-) Someone could
claim the person wore gloves (yes, too many b class detective movies :-)).

But now you are requiring someone to prove their innocense versus someone 
to prove their guilt.  I certainly hope that idea does not catch on.  Also, 
if the prints don't match (assuming there are even prints on the paper), 
you have created another victim... The one you fingerprinted.  Not just 
because of the violation of their rights, but loss of trust between the 
manager and the employee.  The employee may be perfectly happy to start 
trusting the manager, but I doubt the other way would be as easy.

>(Any other finding requires further
>    worries, questions, and work about the manager, but not that one.)

If you only look at one side.  The innocent person, wrongly accused, could
very well come back with charges etc of their own. 
    
>    Where does this "then the manager gets to worry about having this
>    sort of thing done." come in?  Do you really think that her manager
>    is so stupid that he would think that a note in a memo *he* wrote,
>    and that *he* placed on her chair should *never* be considered to be
>    produced by him as well?  

Then pray tell, why would he do it at all then (on paper, with everything
pointing to him)?  Surely he would see that.

>I think that most people are smart enough
>    to direct their indignation against the perpetrator in this case,
>    rather than the victim, don't you?

Yes.  But you do not know who the perpetrator is, do you?  I do not know
either.  Certainly, things point one way.  I am not arguing that this matter 
should not be persued; it most certainly should.  I do not like some of the
proposed methods and certainly do not like the idea of anything goes.  
There has to be a line drawn somewhere.

-Joe

re: .-something_or_other

I have digressed a bit from the actual topic.  As such, I'll be dropping back
into read mode.  

-Joe

    The police can handle the State Criminal aspect.
    The police and courts can handle the civil aspect.
    
    Digital can handle the issues that can cost them reputation an money
    in court, publicity, and reputation.
    
    IMO- They would wish to be as involved as possible, that is just
    good business.  Sad though it may be, it can save them many costly
    suits to persue it within their legal limits.  Remove the harasser,
    and they will gain his salary, improve their work environment.  If
    it costs them some ink, and they do not violate his civil rights in
    doing so, they have the potential of gaining FAR MORE GOOD FAITH
    than they loose if he is innocent.  They get to maintain their
    platinum rating for dealing with minorities and women.  If he
    is guilty, they can maintain sovereignty, and separate themselves
    from the offender in time.
    
    REMEMBER! Digital can not search our homes.  HOWEVER!!! THEY CAN
    SEARCH OUR FILE CABINETS, DRAWERS, PAPERS, and EQUIPTMENT!!! all of
    that belongs to them, and we as much as signed it over to them
    before we were allowed to begin working here. ... and if you think
    about it... THE POSTIT ITSELF may be THEIRS TOO! they can search
    it for whatever they want... the police may even be hard pressed
    to get it from them if they could claim that "Digital confidential"
    information was contained on it.  This part of why they would share
    the blame in the harassment themselves, most things would
    have to go out with their permission, or forced from them in a law
    suit.
    
    All of this is, as I have said before, just smoke, however... If
    you would rather she bring in a police officer/print expert of her
    own, skip digital sovereignty, and have Dec have to operate from
    a defensive position... so be it.
    
    As long as it is done.
    
    Cindi
    
    I will not persue this much more.  At this point, I percieve that
    we are incapable of understanding on this.  ... or IMO, you do
    understand and you are clouding the harshness and difficulty of
    her situation, with concerns about protecting the offender.
    Concerns which, IMO, do not measure up money wise for the company.
    

re .42:

>    If they do match, <Whosis> has an open-and-shut case of sexual
>    harassment, and the amount of effort *she* has to spend pursuing it
>    is� minimal, while Security and Personnel get to hustle.

	Not really. Doesn't take much thought on the part of the perpetrator
	to swipe a stack of post-it from someone's desk. Probably wouldn't
	even be missed. And the top sheet almost certainly has a print 
	of the owner from when it was grabbed to remove the preceding sheet. 
	So the perp writes the harassment note taking care not to get his own
	prints on the post-it, and he has the perfect red herring to 
	point the investigation away from him, to an innocent bystander.

	I think you have a much better probability of a positive ID using
	handwriting analysis.

	The folks who said that any innocent person has no reason to fear
	having there prints taken made me cringe. The Constitution is pretty
	clear about Search and Seizure. If you have nothing to fear, you 
	wouldn't mind if I searched your house, would you?

	Advice given previous is pretty good, though. Best of luck, and hope
	they nab this guy.

						Tom_K
	

    I'd like to clarify a point that both Joe and Tom have missed:
    
    I suggested using *available* prints for the testing.  Prints from
    memos already in the possession of <Whosis>.  I did not mention the
    taking of fingerprints from anyone.  I suggested this as a quick
    method of getting a sure "not possible" for the manager without anyone
    except Security and <Whosis> knowing anything about it.  It would be
    good for little else.
    
    Now, apparently most people are blissfully unaware that criminalists
    pay as much attention to the placement of fingerprints as to their
    other characteristics.  For example, a square-on print of a right
    thumb on the middle of the bottom of a Post-It tells the criminalist
    that the print was put there when the *previous* note was removed
    (by the someone's left hand).  An inner-edge of a left index finger
    on the top of a Post-It and the outer-edge of a left thumb on the
    bottom tells the criminalist that the writer of the *current* note
    held the pad in position with the left hand, and that the writer is
    therefore right-handed.  There would be a thumbprint on the *back*
    of the Post-It, opposite two or more fingerprints from the same hand
    on the front, where the writer peeled off the note.  See?
    
    						Ann B.
    
    P.S.  Would anyone be surprised to learn that the only A+ I got in
    college was for my paper on fingerprints?

    
 >   REMEMBER! Digital can not search our homes.  HOWEVER!!! THEY CAN
 >   SEARCH OUR FILE CABINETS, DRAWERS, PAPERS, and EQUIPTMENT!!! all of
 >   that belongs to them, 

Last time I looked, my fingerprint generator was at the tip of MY fingers.
Not Digital property.

>    I will not persue this much more.  At this point, I percieve that
>    we are incapable of understanding on this.  ... or IMO, you do
>    understand and you are clouding the harshness and difficulty of
>    her situation, with concerns about protecting the offender.

The alleged offender.  You do NOT know who wrote the note, do you?

No, I am not clouding the issue.  And I find your comments about my
intent of posting to be offensive.  I formally request that you
stop making such comments about my motivations.

-Joe

    
>    I suggested using *available* prints for the testing.  Prints from
>    memos already in the possession of <Whosis>.  

Any prints taken from such things cannot be shown to be the 'owner's unless
you get the print(s) off him/her.  Anybody could have been in that person's
office and left their prints.  While it might be an indication, it would
not be a definite one.

>I did not mention the
>    taking of fingerprints from anyone.  I suggested this as a quick
>    method of getting a sure "not possible" for the manager without anyone
>    except Security and <Whosis> knowing anything about it.  It would be
>    good for little else.
 
I liked the analysis (writing) better; I was only suprised to see that DEC
employed such an expert.
   

-Joe

BTW:  It would be interesting to actually collect random POST-IT pads and
      see if what you say is true.  I suspect there are exceptions eg,
      some people I have seen remove the post-it, post it, and THEN write
      on it. :-) :-)

Re: .54

> Any prints taken from such things cannot be shown to be the 'owner's
> unless you get the print(s) off him/her.

You are not absolutely correct; please do not state your opinions as
fact.  The facts are these:

1.  Digital has the legal right to request a formal search of the FBI's
    files to look for a match on prints in Digital's possession, as part
    of a criminal investigation.

2.  If the prints are on file - for whatever reason, INCLUDING MILITARY
    SERVICE - the FBI will return their owner's identity.

3.  Such a match does not indicate guilt; it merely establishes that the
    person in question handled the yellow sticky.

4.  Prints on other objects besides the yellow sticky are *in Digital's
    possession* and can be used to further establish innocence or guilt.

In response to your BTW comments, I suggest that regardless of the order
in which a yellow sticky is removed from its pad and written on, the
removal will be accomplished by leaving at least one print, almost
certainly that of a thumb, on the bottom surface.  Ann did not say that
there aren't other ways to handle the things; she said that a print of a
given type, in a given location, indicates to a criminologist a certain
scenario.  Knowing Ann, I am more likely to believe her knowledge than I
am to credit your suspicion.

-d

    
    Dear Anon,
    
    What a terrible thing to have happened to you!  I hope that you have
    been able to get some support from friends, family.
    
    I hope that by now you have gone to your supervisor and personnel about
    this.  I think it's important to report this - whoever did this to you
    may be harrassing other women as well.  I tend to doubt it was your
    supervisor - it would be so stupid for him to write on an official
    communication to you.  But... of course, it's possible.  I hope that
    you have gotten some kind of satisfactory response.  I think the finger
    printing sounds a little farfetched, but it's something you might ask
    Personnel about when/if you talk to them.  It irks me that this string
    went down a law and order rathole.  Feel free to contact me by Mail if
    you'd like to talk more about what happened to you and your options as
    to how to respond.
    
    Justine - concerned woman and DEC employee