Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    I'm posting this for a member of our community who 
    wishes to be anonymous at this time.

    Justine
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    What would anyone else in the Womannotes community do about this
    situation.  My exhusband has been telling people, in great detail, of
    his sexual abuse of his daughter 12 years ago.  What does he want?  A
    medal?  I have never met his daughter, but feel a bit of camaraderie
    with her since I am a sexual abuse victim myself.  I feel that these
    are my choices:

    1)  Ignore it; do nothing.
    Unpalatable.  This jerk raped me once during our marriage.  I did
    nothing about that.  How many more girls/women will he rape before he's
    through?

    2)  Somehow contact the mother.  She may know nothing about it.

    In fact, the daughter might not either.  She was only 3 at the time. 
    These types of things do tend to get blocked out.

    3)  Contact Social Services.

    He claims that he worked through this in counseling by himself.  The
    counselor felt (so he claims) he had worked it out.  Fine, but what
    about her?

    Does anyone see more choices?

        I believe  that  there  is  no statute of limitations regarding
        this sort of  case,  having just seen a program about the adult
        son and daughter who  successfully had their parents prosecuted
        for sexual abuse when they were children and jailed.
        
        I can't offer advice on  what to do (only sympathy), but Social
        Services sounds like a good place to begin if you feel that you
        should follow through on this...
        
        Andy
        

I believe that there *is* a statute of limitations, but that it starts
after the child reaches age 18.

As for what you, the base noter, should do, I don't know.
Contacting the mother may or may not help, as she may know of this and
not have dealt with it, and she may not tell the girl that you called
or do anything about this.  Hard to say.

You could call Social Services anonymously and ask them their advice, and
find out what *they* would do if you gave them names.  At the least, this
might help you make a decision.

Is your exhusband *bragging* about this, or what?  If he is telling people
that he abused his *daughter* (rather than just saying a *child*) then he
is definately not respecting her privacy.

      Carol

This is a mail message I got in response to my questions for my friend "Bertha"
in V2. Bertha, as I may or may not have mentioned is an ACOA and survivor of
child abuse. The sender said I could post it anonymously here.
	Mez

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mez,

   I read about your friend "Bertha's" problem in Womannotes. My previous
therapist suggested that I try a 12-step program for adult children of
alcoholics. I went to three different meetings, and was (this is putting it
mildly) turned off by them. The 12-step approach is resoundingly religious (as
opposed to "spiritual" as the 12-step folks would ahev it). More than that, it
is resoundingly Christian in orientation. Many of these "non-sectarian"
meetings end with the Lord's Prayer (and no one seems to think that there's a
contradiction anywhere!) I also agree with your friend's (and your) peception
that the 12-step approach encourages rather than heals certain self-destructive
tendencies (like feelings of powerlessness).

   I did some research and I found some information on Secular Organizations
for Sobriety. They're mentioned in the WN notes, but that reply didn;t give
information on local groups. I've appended a note that reproduces one of their
mailings. I've not attended any meetings, since I've chosen to approach my
therapy in a different way, but I've spoken to the organizer of the Boston
group on the phone a couple of times, and he seems very open-minded and not at
all dogmatic about people's approaches to recovering. If someone wants to come
to one of their meetings and talk about their "Higher Power" or God, that's
fine; it's just not accepted as a Tenet of Faith, and those who choose not to
have "HPs" are not made to feel alienated.

  My only reservation about the local group is that they are mostly concerned
about alcoholics rather than adult children.

   Also, if your friend is still looking for a therapist, I can recommend my
own. She has a lot of experience in dealing with ACOA issues and with incest
survivors. She is:

     Roberta L. Pasternack, M.Ed.
     10 Chester St., #5
     Cambridge, MA  02140
     (617)-492-3045



Secular Organizations for Sobriety (SOS) is an autonomous, non-religious
assembly of sober (or struggling to be sober) alcoholics, problem drinkers and
addicts who believe we can benefit from mutual support, comradeship, and
sponsorship provided within such a group:

The SOS group operates on the belief that:

   * we exist in response to those whowish to acknowledge their problem with
     alcohol and/or other drugs;

   * the confidential sharing of thoughts, feelings and experiences can be a
     powerful way to achieve or reinforce recovery from addiction;

   * recovery from addiction is a process of personal choice and
     responsibility;

   * achieving and maintaining one's recovery is a separate issue from religion
     or spirituality;

   * each person has his or her own set of beliefs and a support group is a
     safe place to express these views;

   * the development and patterns of substance abuse problems are unique for
     every person and, as a result, various avenues to recovery are possible;

   * anyone with an addiction problem, including members of AA and other 12
     step recovery groups, are welcome to join SOS.


The SOS group does NOT:

   * operate as a political organization or social club;

   * exist to further the cause of anything other than recovery from addiction;

   * affiliate itself with any 12-step recovery program;

   * offer a specific program bound together by ritual, dogma, steps or 
     traditions.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
To obtain more information about SOS and its meetings:
  In the Boston area: write to  SOS, P.O. Box 3132, Boston, MA  02101
                      or call   Liam at (617)-491-9078 or 
                                Marsha at (617)-646-5963

The Boston area SOS group meets Fridays at 8 PM at the Arlington St. Unitarian
Church, 351 Boylston St., Boston, AND Sunday at 7 PM at the First Unitarian
Universalist Church, 3 Church St., Cambridge.

To obtain more information about meetings outside Boston:

     Write to: SOS, Box 15781, No. Hollywood, CA  91615-5781
     or call   (818)-980-8851

    In the last version, someone (Herb?) posted a list of common "symptoms"
    of abuse survivors.  I can't find it...can someone send it to me?
    
    Thanks,
    D!

    
    See also:......
    
    Womannotes-V1
    544 - child sexual abuse - Boston Globe series
    705 - abused chldren
    
    Womannotes-V2
    202 - sexual molestation
    676 - sexual abuse of children not on the rise?
    816 - sexual abuse of children/incest
    1066 - what can women to do stop sexual child abuse
    1087 - dealing with abuse - how long does it take
    
    Human_relations
    34 - child abuse - the victims
    608 - any notes on sexual abuse?
    
    Mennotes
    149 - childhood abuse/adult results
    199 - male victims of sexual abuse
    358 - sexual abuse of children not on the rise?
    
    Psychology
    29 - Emotional child abuse - what to do?
    49 - Bradshaw on: the family
    126 - child sexual abuse
    129 - toxic parents/forgiveness
    151 - adult children?
    
    Self_help
    5 - adult children of alcoholics
    35 - bleeding from a wound nobody else can see
    
    Parenting_v2
    392 - emotional child abuse - what to do?
    1194 - child abuse - how can we help?
    1523 - preventing sexual abuse of children
    
    
    Please add other pointers if you know of them.....
    
    -Jody

I am an incest survivor with several years of recovery behind me.  Anyone may 
feel free to contact me for support, references, information etc.  You can
send me mail, or if you prefer to remain anonymous, call me at DTN 273-5346.

Don

    
    
    Maybe this belongs in the book note, but another good book is "My
    Father's House: A Memoir of Incest and of Healing" by Sylvia Fraser.  
    I don't often cry when reading books, but this one had me sobbing.
    
    The blurb on the back of the book says:
    
    "She was a beautiful blonde child, a star student, a quintessential
    1950's teenager, a model wife, an award-winning journalist.  As a girl,
    she loved Saturday matinees, giggled at pajama parties, ran for student
    council president, led the cheerleading squad, went steady with the
    right boy, and married him, her proud father at her side.  But from the
    age of seven, Sylvia Fraser shared her body with a "twin", another self
    created to do the things she was too frightened, ashamed, repelled to
    do -- the things her father made her do.  As an adult, Sylvia Fraser
    had no recollection of a sexual relationship with her father; for forty
    years the existence of her other self and the secret life she led had
    been unknown to her.  With tremendous candor and eloquence, Fraser
    breaks through her amnesia to discover and embrace the tortured self
    she left behind.  A horror story, a mystery, and a coming-of-age story
    told with lyric beauty and intensity."
    
    CQ 

    I guess I'm confused about some of the descriptions that might be
    called answers to the question, what is abuse?  For example, we are
    fairly casual about nudity in our house, after showers or when getting
    dressed in the morning.  Our girl, now 8, has been becoming more aware
    of modesty and more concerned about who "sees" her, even in the family,
    and my son (6) imitates this behavior (in minor degree) in typical
    little-brother, tease-y style.  No one pushes them about it, in either
    direction.  One of the definitions in the article
    Herb posted in .9 includes the phrase 'exposure to' or 'exposing adult
    genitals'.  How literally is this to be taken?  If I forget my robe and
    walk nude from the shower to my room in the presence of my child, is
    this abuse?  I am certain it is not.  But the definition makes me
    uneasy, by seeming to include it.
    
    Disclaimer: I am _not_ questioning that abuse occurs, but only trying
    to understand better what it is, beyond some fairly clear definitions.
    
    Sara
    

    
    RE .9, .10
    
    Thankyou.
    Thanks for entering those.
    
    Btw, I remember that in "Women Who Love Too Much" there is a sort of
    list of possible pointers for abuse, through which I realised for the
    first time that *you can have been abused even if intercourse did not
    take place*. I remember it listed some relatively non-sexual things
    like invasion of privacy, or invasion of the child's body-space
    (enforced hair cutting etc) - these can produce similar psychological
    symptoms to the more "obvious" stuff....
    
    'gail
    

    >I know that my mother abused me psychologically.  Could that alone
    >account for some of the same symptoms?                                  
    
    	Yes.
    					andrew

    The earlier noter who was made uneasy about walking from the shower to
    the bedroom without a towell made me wonder too about the validity of
    the definition [approx quote]: 'exposure (visual) to adult genitals'.
    Now come on people. Are you trying to tell me that if my towell slips
    and my son see my genitals for a couple of seconds that he is being
    sexually abused?  Lets look at intent here.  I thought that sexual
    abuse was something to the effect of direct sexual involvement of
    children with adults?  If a child seeing a naked adult human body 
    in an innocent context (what about NUDIST PARKS?!) consitutes abuse
    then I think some people have their definitions and THEIR OWN opinion
    of the human body twisted.
    
    In my opinion the human body is beautiful, (yes ALL of it).  If kids
    can't see their parents body in an appropriate context (such as after a
    shower) occasionally how are they to grow up without thinking that 
    there is something inheriently wrong with the naked human body? 
    
    I am not suggesting that it is appropriate to faunt ones' nakedness or
    prance around naked for hours in front of ones children... but after a
    shower from a slipped towell... give me a break.
    
    Jeff

    re. -1
    Hear, hear!
    
    Charles

    Children -- even tiny children -- are sexual beings -- it is entirely
    possible that the grandson felt sexually stimulated --
    
    However, it also sounds like that was not the intent of your mother;
    
    Abuse, like rape, is a violation of boundaries.  Your mother may
    have inadvertently stimulated the little boy (and you, too) but
    it sounds as if there was no sexually on HER part; nor does it seem
    there was any violation of boundaries between adult and child (either
    child).
    
    I tend to agree with the statement "You can't accidently abuse
    someone."  
    
    There is no clear black and white answer -- unfortunately...
    
    					andrew

            <<< MOMCAT::PIGGY:[NOTES$LIBRARY]WOMANNOTES-V3.NOTE;3 >>>
                        -< Topics of Interest to Women >-
================================================================================
Note 55.10      Sexual Abuse of Children Comments and Discussion        10 of 23
VMSSPT::NICHOLS "It ain't easy being green"         124 lines  16-OCT-1990 17:19
                  -< questions about incest; Libbe S. HaLevy >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
	Are you an incest Survivor?  Only you can tell, and you may not 
know the answer right now.  But there are clues to be uncovered, if one is 
brave enough to track them down.  Ask yourself the following questions:

    
    
    
    
    typist comment: 
    Warning some might be unsettled by answering the questions that follow.
    Caution advised!
    
    1.  Do you not remember large portions of your childhood?

2.  Are you more than 50 pounds overweight?

3.  Have you worked on your recovery in Program and/or therapy and still,  
you don't make sense to yourself?

4.  Is exercise either avoided completely or compulsive?

5.  Are you afraid to be as beautiful/handsome as you know you can be?

6.  Do you compulsively underachieve or overwork?

7.  Does sex make no sense to you?

8.  Do you compulsively pick at your skin, creating blemishes even when 
there aren't any?

9.  Are you accident-prone?

10. Do you disassociate during sex, watching yourself as if from a distance? 

11. Do you take pleasure in cutting yourself?  Do you keep special, 
favorite objects (razor blade, knife) to do the cutting?

12. Are you afraid of your anger, convinced it could kill?

13.  Are you afraid of having children or being alone around them?

14. Are you or were you a bedwetter?

15. For reasons other then marriage or divorce, have you changed your name?

16.  Do you have regular suicidal thoughts or feelings?

17. Are you impotent?

18. Do you abuse drugs and/or alcohol?

19. In your adult life, have you ever been a victim of rape or battering?

20.  Are you unable to sustain an intimate relationship?

21. Do you regularly experience migraines, gastro-intestinal disturbances 
or genito-urinary complaints?

22.  Do you have a general sense of depression that you cannot shake?

23. Are you ashamed of your body?

24.  Do you sexualize relationships even if you don't want to?

25.  Do you suffer from nightmares, insomnia or regular sleep disorders?

26.  Are you afraid to ask yourself these questions?
	
	If you have answered yes to three or more of these questions, you 
may have incest experiences buried somewhere in your past.

	If you've had no conscious memories of incest, that does not mean 
nothing happened.  Memories rarely surface intact.  They are usually felt 
as if through a fog, or seen in fragments, that do not make sense.  The 
process of reclaiming an incest memory resembles a film of an explosion 
 run backwards - incomprehensible slivers of thought suddenly come 
together and coalesce into a clear picture.  Memories of incest can be 
triggered by a taste, touch, sound, smell, physical feeling or current 
emotional trauma..  When they come, you may try to deny them as products 
of an overactive imagination.  The truth is shown by the emotions you feel 
as you try to remember them.

	Memories of incest can surface at any time.  When a memory hits, 
the First Commandment is to *get safe* - stop the car, leave work sick, 
send guests home.  Once you are safe, let the emotions out.  Cry.  Scream 
into a pillow.  Lay on your bed, kick your feet and beat your gists in a 
tantrum.  Tear up a phone book or beat one with your fists or a rubber 
hose.  Call your therapist or a trusted friend and let them know what you 
are going through.  Get to a meeting and share. Journal.  Draw.  Above all, 
know this - that you are remembering, you are NOT back in the violation, you 
are safe, and once these emotions are discharged, this particular memory 
cannot hurt you in this way EVER AGAIN.

	By letting these emotions out, you are freeing a portion of the 
child-you to come out of hiding and integrate with the adult-you of today.  
Once the intensity of remembering has passed - and trust me, it will pass - 
it is necessary to do something to soothe the child within.  Take a hot 
bubble bath and play with a rubber duck; nap; make some cocoa; watch a 
Disney feature-length cartoon; play with a favorite stuffed animal (if you 
don't have one, buy one for your inner child as soon as possible!)  Don't 
feel you have to dwell within the memory or savage yourself for more 
details.  Once an incest memory is cracked, pieces will keep coming as long 
as your work for them - and sometimes even if you don't.  Trust the process 
and don't try to force it.

	In the course of recovery, this memory process will be repeated 
again and again.  You will get to a point where you recognize where you are 
and welcome as well as dread each new revelation.  It's nothing you don't 
already know; you're just remembering an old buried truth.  Only with this 
knowledge can we free ourselves from the incest trap and be able to live as 
our authentic adult selves.

	For those of us who have survived and begun to recover, the pain 
and the self-victimization can stop.  When you first start to deal with 
incest, it feels like falling into an endless abyss - but it's not.  What 
you are doing is walking through a tunnel.  On the other side of that 
tunnel is a light which is your true self.  I can say this because I am 
starting to see the light at the other end.  You are my light as I am yours 
- and every step you take towards recovery helps me get closer too.  We are 
in this battle together, though I do not know your name or face.  But as I 
know the truth of the violations I survived, I know that You are NOT to 
blame, it was not your fault, and finally, you are not alone.

            <<< MOMCAT::PIGGY:[NOTES$LIBRARY]WOMANNOTES-V3.NOTE;3 >>>
                        -< Topics of Interest to Women >-
================================================================================
Note 55.9       Sexual Abuse of Children Comments and Discussion         9 of 23
VMSSPT::NICHOLS "Herb: CSSE support for VMS at ZK"   91 lines  16-OCT-1990 15:45
                -< Incest Learning to Remember (from a friend) >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
	      Incest - Learning to Remember 

			by Libbe S. HaLevy
			Reprinted without Permission

		
		Daddy loved his little girl
		in ways that were not right
		Footsteps near my doorway
		fed the terror in the night
		His fingers burned with secrets
		that my heart could never tell.
		It was Plain
			That Love was Pain

			Daddy - ?
			 Go to Hell

	I wrote those words the week after I first remembered my father's 
violation of my child body.  Since then I have remembered sexual assaults 
on me during infancy, childhood and teenage years by multiple members of 
my immediate family and two distant cousins.  I have also come to accept 
the word for what happened to me - "incest".

	Before we go any further, a disclaimer:  I am not a psychiatrist, 
psychologist, therapist, social worker or any sort of mental health 
professional.  What I am is a writer, with years of experience in making 
sense of my perceptions and communicating what I see and feel to others.  
I also have more than 30 years experience dealing with incest - the last 
three and a half from the perspective of recovery.  What I offer here is 
what I have experienced as truth.

	One problem incest survivors share is the inability to recognize 
their childhood experience as incest.  Webster's Dictionary reinforces the 
socially accepted and very limited concept of incest by defining it as 
"sexual intercourse between people so closely related that they are 
forbidden by law to marry".  This effectively excludes the majority of 
adults who share the incest issue.  The definition I prefer includes 
everything I have read, seen, heard or been taught about the subject:

	"Incest is a crime of power over a child that takes the form
	of sexual violation.  Incest includes suggestive or seductive 
	talk or behavior directed at a child; any unwanted or invasive 
	touching, including kissing, wrestling and tickling; non-medical
	enemas; showing a child pornography or exposing adult genitals
	to them; sexual fondling; oral sex; sodomy; and/or intercourse.

	The hallmark of incest is that the child's control of their own 
body is taken away from her or him.  The issue is power; the weapon is 
physical violation.  The end result is the destruction of a child's 
innocence and distortion of his or her developing personality.  

	Similarly, the people at Webster's (and the society they service) 
wish us to believe that perpetrators can only be blood relatives no further 
away than first cousins.  Again, an expanded definition is called for:

	Incest perpetrators may include any family members, family
	friends, neighbors, babysitters, religious leaders, teachers,
	camp counselors and other trusted caretakers.

	Blood relationship is not important; position of authority over 
a child is.

	Incest survivors develop symptomatic behaviours that can defy 
conscious explanation.  We may engage in a variety of compulsive 
behaviours, such as drug or alcohol abuse, obsessive exercise, workaholism, 
compulsive gambling or shopping.  We may develop eating disorders, and 
become severely overweight, anorexic or bulimic.  We may pick at real or 
imagined blemishes, cut ourselves, self-inflict physical damage or become 
accident prone to dramatize our hidden feelings about ourselves.  We are 
either sexually shut down or promiscuous; during sex we tend to 
disassociate, watching ourselves as if from a distance instead of being 
fully involved in the moment.  We keep secrets, even when it is not 
necessary to do so.  We avoid parenthood and children.  We may struggle 
against the compulsion to perpetrate - and may already have become 
perpetrators ourselves.

	As you read this, you may be experiencing a number of reactions.  
You might feel queasy, nauseous or hostile.  It may be difficult for you to 
read through these paragraphs.  You may feel the need to sleep or a 
sudden desire to eat your way through the refrigerator.  You may have the 
urge to throw this magazine down and ignore what I have written.

	This is understandable.  There is not and never has been a taboo 
against incest, the sexual violation of our children; the taboo has been 
against the victims talking about it.  I am breaking the incest taboo by 
writing this article - and so you are, by the fact that you are reading it. 
 The subconscious doesn't take these things lightly.  By breaking the 
silence, we are together trespassing on the psychic land that we have been 
taught is poisonous, dangerous and off limits.  In truth, this forbidden 
journey maybe be the only road to our personal freedom.

    The following response is from a member of our community who wishes to
    remain anonymous at this time.
    
    	=maggie
    
    =====================================================================
    
    Well here is a attempt by me to help some people and myself at the 
    same time.

    About 8 or 9 months ago my wife and I had the biggest screaming matches 
    that we ever had.  Our lives were drifting apart quickly, we hardly
    ever spoke  to each other, our love life had stopped over two months
    before and to put it  bluntly life sucked.

    It was a Sunday afternoon and the kids, we have two, wanted to go to
    the beach for a ride.  I thought it would be a good idea for the family
    to go  someplace together and maybe she and I could talk a little.  The
    kids were on the way to car when she changed her mind and said I rather
    not with YOU.  That  did it I couldn't keep my mouth shut any longer. 
    She was in our bedroom so  there would be no where to run or hide.  I
    asked point blank if she wanted me  out of the house and life because I
    couldn't put up with her moods and anger.   She started to cry like I
    never seen her do before.  She said I just didn't  understand what was
    wrong and she couldn't tell me.  After more prodding on my  part she
    finally told me what was wrong.

    She had starting remembering things that had happened to her in her 
    childhood.  Things that she had been able to block out for over twenty
    years. For some reason her memory was coming back to her and she
    couldn't handle it.

    She was remembering the sexual abuse that her uncle had done to her
    when she was younger.  Flashbacks of what happened to her were coming
    back to her and she didn't know what to do or who to talk to.  I was
    stunned to say the least and lost for words.  What I had thought was
    something I had done or not done was not even in the picture.  She said
    she loved me very much but couldn't be around me because she didn't
    know what she was going to do next.

    Over the next couple of months we tried to work the problem just the
    two of us.  I did alot of reading and tried to be supportive as I
    could.  We both knew after awhile that this wasn't going to work.  She
    wasn't getting better and I didn't know what else to say or do.  Life
    was just something that we did day by day.

    She finally made the decision to go see a therapist.  It looked like
    the right thing to do.  Progress would be slow and hard but she would
    be working the problem.  Things at home were still rough, the kids
    couldn't understand what was happening or how to deal with her moods. 
    I didn't know what I would be coming home to at night.  Lovemaking
    never happened and our talking to each other was always strained to say
    the least.

    The worst thing that could happen did, her Dad died in August.  It was 
    totally unexpected and very quick.  She went into a deep depression
    that we still can't get her out of.  She keeps saying she should have
    told her Dad about the abuse before he died, but couldn't.  She never
    got the time to say how much she loved him.

    She now has joined a Sexual Abuse Group of woman who meet every week.  
    At first I thought this would be a great idea but now I am not sure. 
    The first couple of meetings were fairly quiet and little happened. 
    She wasn't real comfortable with the other girls, they are much younger
    and drug addicts and prostitutes.  This is something she has never been
    exposed to before.  I thought she was going to quit but she is sticking
    it out so far.  When she comes home from these meetings it takes two or
    three days before she talks to anyone.

    She is also still going to her therapist every week but it is very hard 
    for her to talk to anyone.  

    She has quit work and has no set things for herself to do.  I see her 
    drifting further and further away from me and the kids.

    The kids and I take care of the house, do the wash, and make the meals.
    They have accepted that their mother doesn't do anything anymore but
    don't know why.  It is almost like she isn't part of the family.  She
    spends many hours at  the cemetery at her fathers grave.  My son took
    his grandfather's death hard and I don't think what she is doing is
    helping.

    I have been going to counseling now for about two months.  My therapist 
    keeps telling me to do whats right for me and the kids.  He won't say
    what that is but just keeps repeating this.  I have told my wife what
    he has said and she said he's right.

    I don't know what is right anymore.  All I know is that I am very
    tired, lonely, and unsure of what the future will bring.

    I started dating my wife when I came home from Vietnam , she was the 
    strength I needed to get back to a normal life.  She never gave up on
    me when I  had a drinking problem, or when I had nightmares, or what
    ever else I put her through.

    I can't give up on her.  I love her very much and don't know how I
    could make it without her.  She has been my best friend for over twenty
    years.

    Well I guess I have said enough for now.  The main reason I am writing
    this is to see if there other people who are going through this now or
    who have  gone through it before.  If anyone whats to talk or write
    please let me know through the person who has entered this note for me.

    Thanks for letting me spill my guts.
    
                                                                           

    Hug

    many hugs.  I know you (all of you) need more than that, but it's all I
    can send directly.
    
    suggestion -- change your therapist to one who is more helpful, if this
    one does not seem to be offering much.  (I once blasted a therapist for
    this kind of thing, he was astonished that I wanted more than an
    inattentive ear.)  Point is, quality varies, and you may get better
    results elsewhere.
    
    With her permission, go yourself for a talk with your wife's therapist. 
    Is she receiving any medication for her depression?  I don't know the
    details but some meds are supposed to be helpful.  Her therapist may be
    able to help you find a way to help her in some way, or give you
    further understanding of her plight.
    
    Remember that lots of folks here care.  Good luck and God bless you
    all.

I'm sorry you and your wife are going through such a difficult time.

One thought that came to my mind: Do your therapists specialize in
sexual abuse issues? Also, you mentioned a previous drinking
problem..... A therapist who's well-versed in addictions might be of
particular help as well.... 

I wish you the very best.

Kathy

    A big HUG to you.  You sound like a very loving person.
    
    One thing you might try -- couples therapy.
    
    Therapists sometimes have this knack for telling you to do what's best
    for you at the expense of the relationship.
    
    Also I agree with some previous replys, make sure you are getting what
    you want from your therapist.  If not try a new one.  She might need
    to think about her therapist, too.
    
    Another thing, give her the space she needs.  I went through a rough
    time in my life, and my husband and I were more like roommates than
    friends and lovers.  I just needed the aloneness.  He couldn't do
    anything to help me and we both knew it.  I had to work it out on my
    own.  All I wanted from him was to understand that I wasn't there for
    him and to let me know that it was OK, i.e. not make demands and pick
    up the slack.
    
    In the end I worked things out and he and I are having a lot more fun
    together than we ever did.  I realize your wife's difficulties are
    more severe than what I experienced.  But the situation has a familiar
    ring for me.
    
    Have courage,
    
    Mary

Wow, that's got to be an incredibly tough situation. I really admire you, your
kids, and your wife for sticking through things as far as you have. I don't have
any experience with the kind of thing you're going through, so I won't presume
to give you advice, but you have my admiration. The one thing that does occur
to me is that you do need to make sure that your needs and your kids needs are
being met as well. It sounds like your wife will be going through tough times
for quite a while, and that she is rightfully focussing on getting through
this. It seems to me the best thing you can do is take care of yourself and
your kids so that when things get a little better, you can still be there for
your wife. It sounds like it's going to be very very hard. Have you talked to
her therapist? That might give you some insight too.

	-- Charles

    It is very difficult to do parenting, when grappling with flashbacks
    and even more substantial memories.
    Hugs
    
    
    				herb
    
    

    If your kids are old enough to understand, and you can handle it,
    tell them the truth.  All my children know what happened to their
    sisters (one was raped, the other sexually abused by her dad). 
    It took the hush-hush atmosphere away and opened up the chance for
    the other children to be supportive of their wounded siblings. Too,
    by the fact that the other children knew and accepted the innocence
    of their sisters, it helped the girls to feel less like it was "their
    fault" for what happened to them.

    Right now, the main thing it to keep the environment at home as
    stable and normal as possible in spite of your wife's problems.
    In the long run, if this is not done, it may be the children who
    suffer.
    
    If you need to talk off-line, please write.
    
    Much Support to you and your family,
    
    Barb

Hugs, to you and your family.

What your wife is going thru is very similar to what you went thru after 'nam.
Therapists call it post traumatic shock syndrome, or some such label.

It is fairly common with people who have been in sustained threating/violating
situations - combat and sexual abuse/incest are but two examples.

On of the main differences thou, is that you went through it almost immeadiatly
after coming home, your wife is dealing with it decades after the event.  All 
of the walls and reasonings she built up to protect herself from the memories 
just crumbled, which makes it all the more difficult and painfull.

As far as the suggestion to tell the children what is going on, I can't agree
more.  If you were woried that it was your fault that the marriage was breaking
up, try to image that thru the eyes of a child.  A child that is dependent on
both of you and your marraige...  Make sure that they know what is going on and 
why.

good luck.

clark.

    In my opinion, there are at least one additional important difference
    between PTSD from Vietnam, and PTSD from childhood sexual abuse...

    And that is the age of the victim

    As I understand it, an adult is better prepared to deal with the
    reality of Vietnam than a child is to deal with the reality of
    childhood sexual abuse; and a child -of say 10- is better able to deal
    with it than that same child would have been at age 2. The reality of
    SEVERE and PROLONGED childhood sexual abuse can be absolutely
    devastating including escape into Multiple Personalities as an example.
    MPD typically does not occur after age 7 or so, regardless of the
    severity and chronicity of the abuse.
    There was/is a study on PTSD going on at a Veteran's hospital in N.H.
    The leaders of this study were/are looking for survivors of childhood
    sexual abuse in addition to veterans. Two separate professionals (one a
    psychiatrist who treats both adults and children -including a number of
    survivors, the other a pioneer in MALE childhood sexual abuse) advised
    me that -in their opinion- the study was inappropriate for survivor's
    of childhood sexual abuse.
    I sort of wonder whether a survivor of adult rape might have more in
    common -in a PTSD- sense with a Vietnam veteran, than with the adult
    survivor of severe and prolonged childhood sexual abuse.
    d

<          <<< Note 55.24 by MOMCAT::TARBET "but a bold Fisher Lass" >>>
<                       -< Trying to support a survivor >-

Maggie, will you also make sure that the noter sees this, please?
    
********************************************

Your spouse has been going through what some call the "Emergency Stage".
I have been through this with my spouse when she suddenly started recalling
her sexual abuse, and I understand how incredibly difficult this is for
everyone.  Please buy the book "The Courage to Heal". It may help.  It helped
my spouse tremendously, and it also has a chapter specifically for the people
who love someone who has been abused. For your spouse, it helps to be able to
read about others who have been abused, and about others who have been abused
and only recently remembered it.  It is difficult to suddenly realize that you
were a victim, and it takes a while to realize that you are a survivor.  For
you, the spouse, and for the children, it can be especially hard to feel so
powerless. 

Hang in there.  I know this may seem hard to believe right now, but it will get
easier. 

       Carol

The following is a reply from the anonymous author of 55.24 . If anyone
wishes to talk with him directly I'll be glad to forawrd mail.

Bonnie J

=wn= comod

_________________________________________________________________________



				SEXUAL ABUSE
			THE ROAD TO RECOVERY, I HOPE

	Well it has been over three months since I first put my note in the
file.  It has been along three months to say the least.  There have been some
good times and some real bad times.  I figured some of you might wonder where
my wife and I are at this time, so here is a update.

	As I said my wife started a couple of different courses of action in
her plan to try to recover.  She joined a Sexual Abuse Group and started seeing
a therapist weekly.  

	The Group was a twelve week thing that met once a week.  It was 
comprised of woman only who have gone through some of the same things my wife 
had.  They came from all walks of life and have gone different ways.  Some were 
similar to her and some were the exact opposite.  A couple were real nasty, 
three were hookers, and the rest were middle of the road people.  In the 
beginning my wife had a real hard time adjusting to these people, she didn't
feel comfortable meeting with them or talking about her problems.  She almost 
quit after the first two meetings, but she held on and finished.
	There were nights that she came home and just wanted to talk and be 
held.  There were nights she would come home and didn't want anyone next to
her.  I just did what she asked, if she wanted to talk I listened.  If she 
wanted to be alone, I left her alone.  Many times she would want to talk about 
what some of the girls turned into, this was her first time she ever met 
ladies of the night.  She couldn't understand how anyone could do what they were 
doing.  It scared her to listen how they lived from day to day.  By the end of
the group she said she felt bad for them but understood what they were doing.
	She said she was glad that the group had come to end.

	During this same time she met with her therapist.  They worked and still 
are working on different things in her life.  She says they are digging back 
into her past and it hurts to remember things.  She still is having a hard time 
trusting anyone, including me.  She now goes twice a week,  I understand he is
getting tougher with her to continue on with her progress.  She keeps telling me
she wants to quit, but she has continued on.  Her mood swings aren't as bad, or 
maybe I can see them coming better.
	The kids have been great through all of this, even though they don't 
know about the abuse, they do know their mother is seeing a therapist.  My wife 
doesn't want them to know what happened to her yet.  Her uncle is still alive 
and she feels the less people who know the better.  She hasn't made the decision 
to confront him yet.

	I know we still have along way to go but it least we both feel we are 
doing something about a problem that effects our who life.

	PS. Love life is still on hold.  But we are working our way back into it 
slowly.  We have taken the approach that she missed all the kid games, Post 
Office, Spin the Bottle, etc.  She never went through the normal progression of 
dating games, kissing, petting, and the like.
	Her first try at a normal sex life was once we got married and had to 
work real hard to look like she enjoyed it.

	We will get there.  

	I will send another update in a couple of months.

    How fortunate for your wife that she has someone like you to help see
    her through this.  Thank you for the update!  Please *do* keep us
    informed.
    
    My best thoughts and support are with you and your family during this
    time.
    
    Many hugs,
    Barb

More mail from the author of 55.24
    
    Bonnie J
    comod
    
    _______________________________________________________________
    
    
    				Just Plain Scared

		My wife went away by herself for a couple of days the beginning of this week.  She said she just wanted to write and try to make some
sense of her life and where she was going to next.

		When she returned she told me she had written some letters, one
to me, one to her therapist, one to her father who is dead, and the
Eulogy for uncle.  Her uncle is the one who abused her.  She gave me my
letter and explained how she felt about me and how she felt about us.

		She said she loves me very much and would never leave me, but
is so scared of me because she knows that we must have a love life for
our marriage to continue. 

		She sent the rest of the letters to her therapist.  She told me
that they went into some of the abuse that she couldn't tell hem face to
face.  After she sent them she tried to get them back from the Post Office
because she didn't want anyone to know what really happened.  I tried to
explain to her that her finally opening up to someone is what she needs
to do.  That she was not to blame for what happened when she was 12 years
old and that no one is going to think less of her.  She doesn't seem to
want to hear this but I keep on telling her.

	The next thing is what really has me scared.  She has come up 
with the idea that for her to be come active she has to experience
sex in a different light.  She wants me to treat her like a hooker and
make demands from her.  She wants to to this as a full blown production,
she will dress, and act like a hooker for a whole day.  She wants to go
away with me for a weekend to do this.  She thinks by ME forcing her to
have sex will help her.  What I am afraid of if I do this will it blow
up in my face and force her further away from me, or will this really
help her.  I asked her therapist and the answer I got was she needs to
do what ever is good for her.  I don't know if this is good or bad.

	I have seen notes from other woman who have been abused in 
different files.  If I could get some input from them it might help me
make a very difficult decision easier.

		Thanks

    NO! NO! NO!
    
    	NO! NO!
    
    Unless she is a very unusual lady (and she may well be so ignore my
    comments if you feel they aren't relevant) her need to have you see her
    as a whore 
    is another way of reinforcing the lack of self-esteem that is perhaps
    the cornerstone of survivors of childhood sexual abuse.
    The typical survivor of childhood sexual abuse lives with her (or his)
    worthlessness on a daily (maybe on a constant) basis. Constantly
    seeking/finding means to reinforce this self-view. If both you and
    she (or even if only one of you) has the view of prostitution as a
    dehumanizing and/or self-flaggelating activity then I urge you to think
    very, very carefully about the implications of treating your wife like
    a piece of merchandise.
    I think a three cornered discussion with the therapist is indicated.
    
    
    			a knowledgeable layman
    			herb
    p.s.
    
    i plea that people who wish to discuss the pros and cons of
    prostitution will please do that in another discussion. (there was
    quite an extensive discussion of prostitution in v2 (i believe)
    
    			h

I have not been abused and I have never been a prostitute, so take it for what it
is worth...

As others in here know, I have been involved in "sexual role-playing" quite
a bit, and have talked with others who have.

I know women who have been abused who have used sexual role-playing to great
benefit in helping them come to terms with their feelings about sex and their
partner.  It is possible.  On the other hand, as you say, it has potential of
blowing up in your face.

I am not qualified nor do I know enough about the situation to say which is
more likely. (Nor does Herb, although he doesn't hesitate to give an opinion.)
Just so you know, it has worked for others.

One thing I will recommend is that you TALK TALK TALK about it with her. Find
out in detail why she is doing it and what she wants to get out of it.  I would
also recommend the use of a "safe-word".  Decide on a word or phrase ahead of
time (something she won't forget but that won't come up in casual conversation,
like "aardvark", or her maiden name or something like that) - if she feels
uncomfortable or hurt or needs comfort or to be left alone, basically if 
*anything* goes wrong, she can say this word, and role-playing will stop
*immediately*.  Assure her in no uncertain terms that you will not be
disappointed or angry or hurt or upset if she uses the safe-word and that 
whatever happens you want to make sure it is a good experience for her.

Good luck.

D!

    I had thoughts along the lines that Herb did, wondering if your
    wife is making the equation:

       	prostitute => bad woman => I am bad because I was sexually abused
    	=> I deserve to be treated badly.
    
	Does she think that the only way she can enjoy sex is if her
    	  feelings of self-blame are gratified at the same time?
    	Or does she feel that by having you force her she has more freedom 
    	  to enjoy sex because she is not responsible?
    
    	I can understand that you feel like you are walking into a
    	minefield.  If I were you I would 1) discuss it before
   	hand to see why she thinks this will help, 2) make sure she
    	knows you are doing this to try and help her not because
    	you think of her as a prostitute, enjoy mistreating her, etc. 
    	3) not feel as though you have to do anything _you_ don't feel 
    	comfortable doing, 4) maintain contact throughout the experience
    	to make sure it is not going badly, 5) plan in advance to discuss
    	with her afterwards how well it worked.  If it turns out to
    	have been a bad idea, is that going to be okay?  Can you both
    	treat it as a peice of information?  I also think the idea to
    	attend a few therapy sessions with her and her therapist
    	is a good idea, also possibly seeing a couples counseler who
    	has experience with sexual abuse survivors.
    	  I hope things work out.  I can really relate to your wife's
    	feelings of shame, but it is funny how when you come out the
    	other side of those feelings you realize how inappropriate it
    	is that the victim ends up with the shame.
    		Linda

    re.37
    
    NO!!!
    
    Excuse my for shouting, but it's from the heart. Your wife's request
    hit me at such a visceral level that I ... well, let's be discreet and
    say I was unwell.
    
    Role-playing can be fun, but it seems that this need to be forced or
    compelled would only reinforce and further entrench the powerlessness. 
    
    I could be _very_ wrong; but it really feels like your wife is trying
    to maintain 'being acted upon' and it feels _far_ from therapeutic
    under the circumstances.
    
    Further, what will it do to _you_ if it is a role in which you are not
    happy?
    

    speaking from no experience, only instinct and some native ability
    about people.
    
    NO!!!  I have to agree with Herb.  I would further suggest that if the
    therapist has given you no other guidance than that, either you need
    to talk to the therapist in more depth -- to find out why s/he is
    tacitly encouraging you to reinforce your wife's self-degradation, or
    else why s/he thinks this will help your wife work through her issues
    -- or find another therapist.
    
    I have no right to advise you on this.  I know that.  I cannot believe
    that this is a positive development.  I have to liken it to how I felt,
    long ago, when I began to emerge from a year and a half of majorleague
    depression.  It was scary!  I knew how it felt to be miserable, it was
    the devil I knew.  I was more frightened of the devil I didn't know --
    feeling better -- than of my misery.  It was hard to overcome that. 
    What you and your wife face is much, much harder.  It could be that
    your wife is reacting from a similar fear.  In any case I cannot see
    how treating her in a degrading way would help her.
    
    Good luck.  If I could pray, you'd be in my prayers.  I am keeping you
    in my thoughts.
    
    Sara

Another gut reaction here, NO!! DANGER AHEAD! I think D! has some valid points
but the timing seems wrong here. I can't help but wonder if your wife is seeking
a "loss of control" thinking it will free her to have sex. She won't be "bad"
because she didn't want it, you forced her. 

Maybe you could watch some movies together that depict this then discuss them
and why she thinks this would help. Crimes_of_Passion comes to mind as one that
could start some dialog. 

Another "safe" option might be to just talk about what you'd do if you played 
out the scene but not actually do it. Perhaps just the discussion would free her
to respond. liesl (who has no training what-so-ever in counseling)

>I can't help but wonder if your wife is seeking
>a "loss of control" thinking it will free her to have sex. She won't be "bad"
>because she didn't want it, you forced her.

Yes, this was my first reaction to. but I still don't see why this is 
necessarily bad.

The women I mentioned that I know who used this sort of role-playing to
address their problems had exactly this in mind.  They felt guilty about
sex and thought it was dirty and couldn't get past that to enjoy it.  Being
in a situation where they were being "forced" (though obviously not really)
allowed them to start learning to enjoy sex in a nonthreatening (ie: no
guilt, not dirty-feeling) way. 

I think it is odd that people are so quick to come up with absolute
black and white judgments ("NO!!!") about a situation in which they have
virtually *no* information. Sounds suspiciously like a knee-jerk reaction
based on one's *own* feelings about the role-playing involved.

D!

    First of all, your feelings are important.  If you can't feel
    comfortable with it, then don't do it.  Role-playing has to be
    mutually enjoyable to be beneficial.  
    
    As a woman who has suffered through several bouts of depression, I
    suspect that your wife wants you to take responsibility for her
    recovery.
    
    It gets so difficult, so tiring, so painful sometimes.  You just
    want to give up.  You're too tired to even go upstairs to bed, and
    even the thought of the effort of making love is more than you can
    bear.  And you see the disappointment in your spouse's eyes, even
    though he's been nothing but supportive, and you wish you had the
    energy to even be sorry. 
    
    So you start thinking, "If he'd just make me do it, I wouldn't
    have to feel so bad. I wouldn't mind, not really, I enjoy it once
    we get started, but I'm so tired I can't even manage to say
    yes..."  If I had thought of the role-playing part, I don't know
    whether that would have helped jump-start my recovery or not.  I
    think I mentioned in an earlier note that I find good sex helps
    bring me out of a depression, though the depression can make good
    sex hard to achieve.
    
    I don't know to what extent the issues of recovering from sexual
    abuse would change my perspective, but I don't automatically see
    harm from going along.  As an earlier note mentioned, you should
    definitely discuss how your wife will feel if it *doesn't* work. 
    She may be counting on it as a kind of magic ritual and not want
    to think about that, but if she hasn't, it's probably a bad idea.
    
    Being forced to comply with sex is a VERY common female fantasy
    (that DOES NOT mean women want to be raped).  BOTH participants in
    the fantasy are products of your own imagination.  That means that
    the aggressor is also a part of the fantasizer's psyche.  And it's
    possible that she's afraid of her own power.  By acting out this
    fantasy with you in the aggressor's role and herself in the
    passive helpless role, she may be trying to deny her own
    aggressive urges. 
    
    So I'd say, talk it through very thoroughly, with the therapist if
    necessary.  Don't do it if you have any doubts or revulsion.  Make
    sure to have the safe-word, for yourself as well as for her. 
    Schedule time to talk about it afterward, whether it's good or
    bad.  And all the rest of the things that D! talked about.
    
    --bonnie

> I think it is odd that people are so quick to come up with absolute
> black and white judgments ("NO!!!") about a situation in which they have
> virtually *no* information. Sounds suspiciously like a knee-jerk reaction
> based on one's *own* feelings about the role-playing involved.

D!, I don't think that was fair.  I don't think that any of the people
who have reacted strongly have been knee-jerking; I've seen them carefully
qualify just why and how this *particular* request for role-playing may be
very dangerous for this woman who may be deep in a problem with self-esteem.
FRP may be just fine for people who understand themselves and have the ego
for it; but even you can't think its fine for everybody, given all of the 
people who are so out-of-touch with their real selves in this world.

DougO

    I dunno, Doug.  It's true that the points were valid, but
    carefully qualified answers don't usually use that many capital
    letters and exclamation marks.  There are a lot of deep emotions
    being touched.
    
    That doesn't mean that the opinions are wrong, but there's more
    going on than just caution.
    
    --bonnie

    My reaction is to instantly say "How the heck should *I* know?!" I
    don't know the woman, I don't know the man, I don't know the situation
    except third hand. Role playing might be perfect, it might be
    absolutely wrong. *I* have no way of knowing. The one bit of
    information I have is that she suggested it, which makes me say that
    you ought to at least consider it - unless you think you know her mind
    better than she does (which *is* possible, but is also pretty arrogant,
    you better be sure...)
    
    I too was disturbed by the rash of instantaneous "NO!" responses, and
    the vehemence behind them. [Warning - psycobabble follows] It sounds
    like the basenoter is looking for validation, and the respondants are
    projecting. Neither of which really considers the well being of the
    subject.
    
    	-- Charles

    I'm surprised that no one else has brought up this observation:
    
    In .35, you say:
    
    	� The Group was a twelve week thing that met once a
    	week. It was comprised of woman only who have gone
    	through some of the same things my wife had. They
    	came from all walks of life and have gone different
    	ways. Some were similar to her and some were the
    	exact opposite. A couple were real nasty, three were
    	hookers, and the rest were middle of the road people.
    	In the beginning my wife had a real hard time adjusting
    	to these people, she didn't feel comfortable meeting
    	with them or talking about her problems. She almost
    	quit after the first two meetings, but she held on
    	and finished.  [...]  Many times she would want to
    	talk about what some of the girls turned into, this
    	was her first time she ever met ladies of the night.
    	She couldn't understand how anyone could do what they
    	were doing. It scared her to listen how they lived
    	from day to day. By the end of the group she said she
    	felt bad for them but understood what they were doing. �
    
    It seems clear to me that her interest in playing the part of a
    hooker in a role-playing game is connected to the women in the
    group who actually were prostitutes. The coincidence is overwhelming.
    She seemed to be pulled back and forth by a "disgust" at that kind
    of life ("She couldn't understand how anyone could do what they
    were doing") and an empathy for them ("she said she felt bad for
    them but understood what they were doing"). Undoubtedly, she feels
    some need to identify with these women. For what reason, I don't
    know, and perhaps she doesn't know either, but that does seem to
    be the case. It could be some things that they said in the group
    sessions that makes your wife think that identifying with their
    lives might help her isolate her own problem. Maybe she feels that
    they were successful in overcoming their fears, and that she needs
    to "adopt" their lifestyle -- even if only in fantasy role-playing
    and not in reality -- in order to successfully overcome *her* fears.
    
    But I don't know. I'm not a professional. I'm not even a "gifted
    amateur". But there's obviously more to this than what's on the
    surface, and I have to agree with D! that the "NO!!!!" reactions
    are too knee-jerk.
    
    Still, before you proceed with this role-playing, it would be better
    if you, your wife, and her therapist made an attempt first to figure
    out why she feels a need to go through with this role-playing. And
    I think it's also important that both your wife and the therapist
    knows how uncomfortable you are with the "game".
    
    --- jerry

FRP may be just fine for people who understand themselves and have the ego
for it; but even you can't think its fine for everybody, given all of the 
people who are so out-of-touch with their real selves in this world.
    
    No, Doug, it isn't for fine for everyone.  But why are people so
    convinced, based on a few dozen lines in a notesfile written second
    hand *about* someone that it isn't right for *that* person.  I don't
    *know* if it is right for her, and NEITHER DO YOU (plural).  All the
    "NO!!!!" responses assume that it is most definitely and without doubt
    *not* right for this woman.  How can you possible know that?
    
    I do think it is a knee-jerk response.  A well-thought-out response
    would realize that we don't have the information to be advising this
    woman.  I think it is clear that the people who are saying "NO!!!!"
    would say that such role playing was wrong for *any* woman in such a
    situation, and so I think it is based on their emotional response to
    the role-playing rather than a rational response to the needs of the
    women in question.
    
    I don't think I stressed enough in my original note what othesr have
    said - if *you* [husband] don't feel comfortable with this, DON'T DO
    IT.  Role-playng can be healthy and catharthic - but only if both
    players really want to do it.  Don't do it just for her, if you don't
    want to, because that won't help her at all.
    
    D!

    
                 Isn't *much* of our life "role-playing"?  Before a "talk"
    in front of a large crowd, most of us would practice it...maybe before
    a mirror.  When I know that I have to talk to a *HOT* customer, I try
    to collect my thoughts and "program" the conversation in my head. 
    athlete's use "role-playing" to psych themselves up before a game or
    event.  In sports I *know* its effective.
    
                 With that said....I see *no* reason why it couldn't be
    effective in the bedroom or even to "help" disfuctional sexual
    relations.  If a therapist recommended it, then I think I would have to
    try it at least before I discounted the idea.  
    
    
    Dave

    
    Ok, some responces state that they think this woman has the need to
    have sex forced on her by playing the role of a hooker.  I don't see
    it that way at all!  First off, I've never meet a hooker.  I don't
    think anyone would have to force a hooker to have sex with them.  Maybe
    this guys wife wants to feel sexy.  Maybe this guys wife wants to feel
    unihibited.  I can only imagine that *if* I did have sex with a hooker,
    I will still try to please and be gental.  I don't think *rough* would
    be the right way to go about it either.  
    	If this is what she wants, do it.  I would throw in something kinky
    too, ya know, some oil, maybe some chocolate or whip-cream.  Something
    crazy....different.  Try and have fun with it.  Don't turn it into some
    demanding thing.  
    
    	Hal
    

    re.50
    
    As one who had, and posted, a vehement negative reaction I feel you
    over-step yourself in generalising about the quality and nature of the
    responses.
    
    The role-play itself is not what I found harmful.  Indeed role-playing
    can be therapeutic and/or fun.
    
    The [possible] re-enactment of a sexual dynamic similar to the cause of
    the existing trauma rather the reverse of what I've heard therapists
    recommend.
    
    Do I think I'm right?  Not necessarily.  But I have seen more survivors
    of childhood sexual abuse harmed, or at least set back in their
    recovery, by this particular role-play enacted for the reasons stated
    than I have seen break-throughs.  In the absence further information, I
    go with the odds.
    
    Was the volume of the response a knee-jerk?  Absolutely.  And so was
    the nausea.  Reading the request brought a flood of violent personal
    memory.  You are quite right in surmising that I was projecting.

    This reply is from a member of our community who wishes to be anonymous
    at this time.   Justine
    ========================================================================
    
To the author of 55.37



I'm sorry your wife is going through so much pain.  I feel qualified
to answer this question as an incest survivor whose is learning to
deal with the pain of unsafe and unwanted sex as a child.

I agree with all of those who said NO!  My reason for this response is
that your wife is probably trying to reinforce the feelings she has
that she is bad.  The issue here is learning how to deal with the
aftereffects of incest and childhood sexual abuse.

She is in the early stages of dealing with her abuse and what she
needs is support, caring and understanding.  It is a very long and          
hard process to go through.    Help her to find a support group. 
Therapists are needed also but she needs to have support from other
survivors to know she's not alone.

There are some excellent books on the subject just to name a few:

"Outgrowing the Pain" E Gill
"Secret Survivors" E Sue Blume
"The courage to Heal" Ellen Bass & Laura Davis
"The courage to Heal Workbook" Laura Davis

I would also encourage her finding a support group.  In Mass call
the Cambridge Women's Center they can refer you to many meetings
in eastern MA and provide other referral information.  In Southern
New Hampshire Call SARAH at (603) 452-9063.  SARAH is a support group
for Incest and sexual abuse survivors.

Role-playing is not the way to work out these feelings, it will only
strengthen the feeling that she is bad.   Sexual Role-playing should be
for fun and excitement not to work out incest and sexual abuse issues. 
Incest and sexual abuse is about power and control not about sex.
Sexual role playing is not working out the real issues of the pain she
is feeling.  She needs to understand her pain in her head and her
heart not medicate the pain. You are not trained to deal with the
results of this of sexual role playing as is the case with most sexual
partners.  Don't put yourself in a position that takes away her power. 
Don't let yourself become her next perpetrator.

And for you that say she will be in control she will have the power to
stop if she feels uncomfortable, bullshit.  Incest survivors did not
have safe words while being abuse so the ability to use a safe word is
not in place.  Learning how to say no is not easy for survivors.  This
is not a safe way to deal with these issues.

Your right to question the use of sexual role playing to deal with
incest and sexual abuse issues.  If you question it and feel
uncomfortable then it's not the right thing to do.

    
                  I guess I misunderstood the topic.....if you are
    "looking" at sexual role-playing  for an incest survivor, then I would
    tell you to tread *VERY* carefully.  
    
    Dave

    I believe there are many, many subjects where the most appropriate
    response is a very instinctive, very gut level...
    			RIGHT-ON! or
    			NO!
    In my opinion one of the difficulties that many people (perhaps
    particularly educated ones) in our society have is trusting our
    feelings. I think an important part of the process of becoming an
    acculturated adult, is to distance ourselves from our feelings.
    I feel very comfortable with my gut-level response to this matter. I'm
    glad so many others do as well.
    It took many many years for me to learn to trust my feelings.
    What remains for me is ...
    		1) modulating the intensity of my reactions
    		2) understanding when it would be imprudent to express my
    		   feelings.

    In re-reading the basenote and Jerry's response in .49, your wife may
    have heard the hookers talking about THEM being in control of the act. 
    A lot of women working the streets feel that way, that they actually
    control the "scene".  Remember the movie "Klute" with Jane Fonda as a
    prostitue and the sessions with her therapist?  She said that she was
    in control.
    
    Maybe that is what is going on, for once in her life she will be in
    control.  Now, maybe she doesn't know exactly how control works in that
    dynamic.  in real life prostitutes are beaten up, raped, etc., but the
    control is still there in their minds.  it's one way how they
    rationalize their choice of employment.
    
    control issues are very big for abuse survivors, as youngsters they had
    no control. as adults, with a trustworthy and trusty partner, maybe
    playing at being in control will enable her to feel that she does have
    some control.  the safe word concept would only reinforce this feeling
    of control, because she would be in control, to stop if she wanted.
    
    women are raised to expect the man to initiate sexual action (imagine
    the problems of lesbians who are raised this way and one is waiting for
    the other to start :) ).  by her experiencing the control of action,
    she will no doubt have more confidence in herself and in own image as a
    fully functioning adult woman.  the fact that she is confiding in you
    and suggesting certain "scenes" means that she acknowledges the problem
    and wants to move toward solving it WITH you involved as well.  you
    must have some very loving parts to your marriage for her to trust you
    to this degree.  that says something good about you too.
    
    good luck, play safe if that's what you decide to do, and i hope good
    things happen for your wife and you!
    
    sue

    
    re: -1
    
    	I agree Sue, thats what I was trying to say...in so many words.
    
    	Hal

As a survivor, I, too, feel qualified to give an informed opinion on this.
I, too, say NO!

It is *very* common to have a survivor play out a scene similar to her (or his)
abuse.  It is very common for a survivor to become very sexually aroused
by thinking of an abuse situation or a situation where she does *not*
have control.  It is also like Bonnie said, that a survivor can sometimes
*allow* herself to enjoy the sex only if (or more if) she feels that she does
not have the control, because the sex done to her was bad, and she now
associates sex with "bad". 

I think there is much more potential here for harm than good, especially
because her spouse is supposed to be a willing participant, in the role
of the "abuser".  I wouldn't do anything *near* that scenario, and I'd
try to get the opinion of another therapist (or more than one).  

I will reveal something personal here:  I had to fight against similar 
feelings and desires for a long time.  The reason I fought them was because
every time I gave into them, it hurt me far more than if I fought them.
I was *really* down on myself no matter what I did.  I still have to fight
this sometimes, while still trying to accept the fact that some of this
I cannot control, and that it is perfectly "normal" to have feelings like
these. 

This is terribly difficult.

        Carol

    
             Yeah....here's another....ditto Carol & Cheyenne.
    
    Dave
    
       Ps:  I would love to see what some of the members of the ACOA notes
    conference would say about this.
    

    I don't feel the "no!" we've been hearing here is a knee-jerk
    reaction...it is a reaction straight from the gut saying "danger,
    danger, danger.."
    
    If you have not been abused as a child you cannot understand, probably,
    why or how dangerous role playing such as this can be.
    
    As an abused child, my first reaction is 'she's going to regress and
    never come back as an adult.'   I'm not a psychologist but I was
    a victim so I know the feelings of betrayal, shame, being-bad, dirty,
    are rooted deeply inside.  Sometimes I think they're impossible to
    remove, but that we must learn to live with the knowledge these
    feelings are there but that they are not correct..these feelings were
    based on a child's internalization of craziness she/he could not
    control.
    
    To role play back into that time would (I think) only reinforce those
    childhood feelings.  Please don't do it with her. If she feels strongly
    that she has to "act out" those feelings, then perhaps she could go
    to a hospital that deals with incest/sexual abuse issues and act out
    in a safe environment.
    
    FWIW.
    Maia
    

    
    I've never replied here but I guess there's always a first time.  My
    first reaction was "there's trouble ahead".  As I read the replies and
    thought it through, I had to re-examine where this *might* be coming
    from.
    
    I get the impression from the responses that there might be some
    thought that by her "play-acting" as a hooker that we're taking abusive
    sex as the end result.  
    
    Maybe her use of "hooker" is a bit strong.  Could it be that this could
    be a weekend away from the pressures of home with her working to put
    herself into a frame of mind that will allow her to have sex with her
    husband?  Maybe the only way she can figure out is to "play-act" as a
    hooker.  After all, hookers "supposedly" *enjoy* sex.  (And yes, I know
    that some are forced into it.)
    
    Talking about this, probably with a counselor, would probably be a good
    idea.  
    
    If she really meant "hooker" in the strongest sense of the word
    (basically the ones that are forced into it), then it might be possible
    to modify her request to something that is workable for both parties.
    
    Just my thoughts
    

The following is from a member of the community who wishes
to be anonymous.

Bonnie J
=wn= comod

_______________________________________________________________



Dear anon,

I'm no therapist, nor am I an expert on child sexual abuse.  But, I
was sexually abused as a child, and I'm currently seeing a therapist
for help with the impact that abuse has had on my life.  My response
is an emotional reaction to a *very* sensitive issue to me.  I'm 
trying to write this rationally, so everyone please be patient and
understanding if this doesn't come out well.  

We're all different people, and have different needs and desires.
What's true for me may very well not be true for your wife.  I
mean no offense to anyone in this reply; everything I've written
is about my emotions, and my *very* emotional interpretation of 
and reaction to what is going on.

When I read your note, I automatically put myself in the position of
your wife.  What you wrote scared me to death.  I cringed, and I felt
like crying.  I still feel like crying, and my hands are shaking 
as I write this.  I feel like screaming NOOOOOOO!!!!!!  I've had those
kinds of thoughts before, about being forced into having sex, but 
those thoughts have always been accompanied by a very strong feeling
of self-loathing, of shame and guilt.  I felt shamed about what
happened, and shamed about having those thoughts, and felt as though
I deserved to have that happen, that it should happen because it 
would prove that I was bad, which I knew I was, so why couldn't we
all just admit it??  I can't imagine how much worse I would feel if
it did happen, because it would obviously be my fault, it would 
obviously just be another way of saying to myself I was bad.  Believe
me, I have found enough ways of telling myself that, one more 
certainly wouldn't help.  As it is, I've submitted often enough to 
sex that I didn't want because I couldn't say no, because I couldn't
even admit to myself that I couldn't say no, and have felt awful
and depressed and above all shamed.  Don't help her degrade herself,
please.  She's probably done enough of it on her own.

I have alot of trouble talking about what happened to me, and I have
alot of trouble talking about sex, and being truly intimate.  I'm 
trying very hard, and my SO is extremely supportive.  Your wife 
doesn't seem to feel safe enough yet to talk.  If she can't feel
safe enough to talk and share her feelings with you, I have trouble
believing she can feel safe and good about any kind of sex.
Why would she have sex if it wouldn't make her feel good?
The response from my SO that I think would be best for me if I 
felt that unsafe, would be to be constantly assured that it was
OK not to have sex, to express your love and affection without 
sex, to try and work on true intimacy first, and that sex will come
when she's ready.  For anyone that's been abused, we never had the
chance to know when we're ready, to learn what it takes to be ready,
to even be able to talk about being ready or not, or to accept that
we could make that decision.  That's what we were *there* for, that
was our only value.  That's what we *had* to do.   It may be very
hard for you, but what I need to know is that I am loved for myself,
that what I want and need is important, and that I can ask for what
I need.  If she's typical of survivors, she's had a hard time putting
her needs first, if she's been able to at all, and she probably
feels bad when she does.  It sounds like she might be trying to 
punish herself or atone for putting her needs first when she went
away for the weekend;  this is, of course, just my reaction.

One other reaction I had to your note was about the therapist.
You said the therapist said, "She needs to do whatever is good
for her."  To me, this doesn't sound like a terribly reasonable
response to what your wife is asking for.  Like herb said, I
think you should talk to both your wife and her therapist about
this, what she wants and why and what effect she thinks it will
have, on her, on you, and on your marriage.  My gut reaction
is that the therapist is a quack.  Obviously, I'm only getting
a small portion of the information and can't really make that
assessment.  But please, if you don't know already, find out if
the therapist is experienced with or specializes in helping abuse
victims.  From what I've read in the literature concerning abuse,
there are alot of therapists out there who do not specialize in
abuse and who have provided advice and "help" which has done alot
of damage to abuse victims.  She's suffered enough, she doesn't
need a therapist that perpetuates the problems she's had.

Writing this has been very frightening, and asking someone to post
it will be even more so.  I feel like writing it has helped me,
though, and I hope some of what I say may help you.  I'm not
the same person as your wife, although we do have some similar
experiences, and my reactions and needs are certain to be somewhat
different.  If you'd like, you can show this to your wife.  
Whatever you do, please tell her how strong she is for having
survived, and for having come this far, and that she deserves
to have her needs met.

    Thank you to the brave writer of 55.64.  May you find healing and peace
    in your life.  God bless you.

    
    
    The following is a reply from the man who wrote earlier about 
    his wife.
    
    Bonnie J
    =wn= comod
    
    _______________________________________________________________
    
Good Morning,

	Well I thought it would be a good time to update on where my wife and I 
are at.  It has been almost a month since the last one.

	Before I start I would like to thank everyone for their inputs and 
advice.  Also some people have sent me mail that I haven't answered yet and will 
try to do so in the next couple of days.

	We didn't go through with my wife's idea, we talked about it and finally 
came up with why she wanted to do it.  She felt that if she was forced to have 
sex in many different ways she might discover some reason to have sex again.  
After we talked we both agreed that this also might turn her further away from a 
normal love life and would make it even more difficult for us.

	Some of the other things that we are going to try are going away for a 
couple of non-threating days to put a game plan in place on how WE as a team are 
going to get our life going again.  She has been very depressed about her 
father's death and is having some physical problems to real make things tough.

	Her best girl friend has been a real problem for us, she calls 
constantly to talk to my wife.  It doesn't matter what time or what we are doing 
everything comes to halt when she calls.  She has gone through a rather messy 
divorce and needs my wife to support her, this has been going on for over two 
years now.  I have told my wife this has to stop because we need our time to 
work on our own problems and her girl friend has to work on hers.  My wife 
doesn't know how to put a stop to this.  She has asked her to limit her calls 
and planning her life around us, but she just does what ever she wants.  She 
used to come and stay with us every other weekend when her kids went with her X, 
but I told her no more as it was disruptive to our family.  My wife is scared to 
lose her friendship if she stops supporting her.  I have said that her friend 
has to understand that we can't continue live this way.  The last straw came 
this weekend her girl friend told my wife that "Your husband doesn't know what 
you REALLY need and that she does and she will continue to call and come over 
when ever she feels like it."  I hit the roof and told my wife that I never 
wanted to see that woman in our house again.  We argued most of the night, once 
I cooled down we discussed how we would handle this problem.  This will be one 
of the topic's we discuss on our time away.

	One of the biggest break throughs we have made is that my wife finally 
agrees that her abuse problem is our problem and we need to work it together.  
She told me that she felt like a failure because she couldn't figure any way to 
move on with her life.  She didn't want to bother me with any of it because she 
thought that I was sick of hearing about her problems.  I told her that they 
were our problems and I couldn't help solve them if I didn't know what they 
were.  

	Well I guess I rambled long enough for now, once again thank you for 
being there to listen to me.  It really helps for me to write down what is 
happening and along with the input from everyone, hopefully I am moving in the 
right direction. 

	Have a happy and peaceful life.

    
    This is an anonymous posting from a noter who read 767.31.
    
    -Jody
    
    
***************************************************************************

    Retracing the footsteps that lead through time, I walk slowly taking in
    sights and sounds of a lifetime that seems, somehow, unreal. I am
    hesitant at first, not knowing what to expect, but at the same time,
    overcome by serenity.  I don't know what I will find there, in the
    recesses of my mind.  Will it be as horrible as I remember?  Will I
    find her there or  will she have vanished, mysteriously, into some
    other dimension, the way she  vanished from my soul?  The time has come
    for me to find out. So, hesitantly,  I walk on.
    
    I wander through the busy streets, feeling invisible.  Noone looks
    in my direction, noone sees me.  They always used to notice new people
    in town. But, the town has changed, somehow.  I pass an old school
    building that was  once filled with the sounds of singing and laughter. 
    It is now empty and the  vines that cover the windows reveal years of
    neglect.  The swings that I once  played on are now broken.  I remember
    that swingset because of the day Billy was swinging away and Martha
    (what a brut) came over to him and POW! knocked him  right on his butt. 
    I chuckle now but at the time I was devistated.  How could she be so
    cruel to my beloved brother?  Well, she never did that again after  the
    principal came out and dragged her to the office by her ear.  Then,
    there  were the days that Mom and Dad would walk with us to the school
    and we would play for what seemed like years.
    
    Yes, there are happy memories of this place.  Many of them are but
    the ones that haunt me are far from joyous tales of youth.  They are 
    the type that arebetter off forgotten and they would be, too,if my mind
    would  just let go.  With each step I take I remember it more vividly,
    the feelings of helplessness and terror and the overwhelming shame have
    stayed with me since that day.  I take a deep breath and turn the
    corner.
    
    Chills run throughout my body as I see the green gridwork of
    clothes lines out behind the houses.  It looks the same, the laundry
    drying in the breeze and the kids riding their 'community bicycles' in
    the parking lot. It is all too familiar.  I don't know if I can bear to
    go on with my quest but I am starting to feel at home now.  The smell
    of chicken soup wafting through the air.  Mrs. Steinburg always made
    soup for anyone in the neighborhood that was feeling a little out of
    sorts.  And as I walk further down the alley,  approaching the house
    that I once called home, I hear the familiar sound of the Nagashi's
    foreign toungue as their family congrigates in the kitchen, while Erico
    fixes their traditional Japanese dinner.  
    
    "Look at this place," I kept thinking to myself. "It hasn't changed a
    bit."  The houses all interconnected, like the families that reside in
    them.  The children, the toys in the street, and the hill that we used
    to slide down on empty boxes.  It is all the same, if only a little
    smaller than I remember.  I raise head, knowing that I am directly in
    front of the house I grew up in and as if descended from heaven, she is
    there.
    
    She is sitting on the front stoop, right where I left her long ago.
    She loved sitting there observing intently all that was going on around
    her. Her little hands are gently wrapped around her knees.  Her golden
    ringlets seem touched by the sun.  And as she raises her head to
    inspect this stranger coming toward her I can see taht her beautiful
    blue eyes had already become accustomed to hiding her torment.  She was
    wearing that pink lacey dress that  she loved so much and the white
    tights that she never did seem to be able to  keep clean.  I could see
    that she had bandages on both knees.  (She always was a little clumsy) 
    Everyone thought she was such a tomboy, her long lanky arms and legs
    were always so good for climbing trees.  But, I know that she is as
    fragile as a china doll and the slightest mistep on my part will send
    her off into that safe world that exists only in her mind.
    	
    My heart aches, longing to grab her in my arms and tell her that I
    will protect her, but I approach slowly.  For I know, as noone else
    can,  that behind her smile lay a frightened, lonely child.  Each
    footstep draws me nearer to her and my heart becomes more and more
    filled with love.  She isn't the horrible creature I had created in my
    mind.  She wasn't ugly and she wasn't disgusting.  She was a beautiful
    little girl.
	
    I kneel down before her and gently reach for her hands.  She is unsure
    but I cradle them gently and reassure her.  Holding her hands in mine,
    I look into her eyes.  "It's ok, I"m not going to hurt you.  I just
    want to talk."  Her hands become tense to my touch but I won't let go. 
    She wants me to..no, she expects me to but when I won't, she almost
    melts into my palms.  "I've come to tell you that I know what happened. 
    I know what he  did.  He hurt you and you know what?  It's not your
    fault.  Look at you.   You're just a child, a helpless little girl. 
    How could you have stopped him? You couldn't have.  I know you wanted
    to.  I know you wanted to scream and cry and get away.  But you
    couldn't, he was much bigger and stronger than you."
	
    "You need to know that everyone's not like him.  You CAN trust people
    not to hurt you.  YOU, you are not dirty, you are not disgusting, you
    are not at fault.  You are a beautiful and special little girl.  You
    don't need to keep the secret anymore because I know all about it.  I
    am you."
	
    "He won't go on hurting you forever.  That's why I'm here.  I'm  here
    to protect you and to tell you that one day, a long time from now, you
    WILL KNOW that it isn't your fault.  You don't have to believe me now,
    you will learn.  But if you do believe me now and let the pain go, you
    will live a much happier life.  Come back with me.  I've left you here
    too long to suffer all alone.  Come back to yourself and let him, let
    the hurt go.  Leave it here, in the past, where it belongs."
    
    She looks up to me, tears in her eyes, and wraps her arms around my
    neck.  I know that she understands but can't speak the truth to me. 
    She has no words to explain but it is ok.  I know.  I feel as if she
    will never untangle her arms from around me and I'm not sure if I want
    her to.  But, when she does, we stand and I take her hand in mine and
    we begin making our way to the home that is now.  I walk slowly so that
    she can keep up and not have to struggle.  She has struggled enough in
    her short life.  We walk on back past the Nagashi's and the
    Steinburg's, still unnoticed as if we are walking in another plane
    until we see him.  
    
    He is standing there, protected behind the metal screen door.  He,
    if nooone else, see us.  I see in his eyes that he know's who I am  and
    why I'm here for he, too, has been trapped in the past.  But I am not
    here to free him.  "Yes, you should be ashamed," I say to him. "You
    destroyed this beautiful, innocent child and you won't be forgiven.  I
    want you to know that she will no longer carry YOUR guilt and YOUR
    shame and YOUR pain.  It is yours to live with if you can.  She has
    done NOTHING, NOTHING to feel ashamed of.  You CAN NOT hurt her again
    because I will protect her.  WE are leaving your pain here, leaving  it
    behind."  His expression never changes as I speak to him.  He know that
    he is guilty and nothing he can say will change that.  We leave him
    behind.
    
    As she and I walk, hand in hand, leaving the past where it belongs,
    we turn to see that he is no longer stnading in the doorway.  He has
    become just a memory, someone that hurt us but, in the end, helped us
    become a stronger, more caring person.  The memory can't haunt us any
    longer because it is part of us now.  She and I are now one and we can
    face tomorrow together feeling stronger, healthier and much, much
    happier.

    re:  .67  Thanks.  - Vick

    re: .67 (Ann Nonimous)
    
           Yes, and thank you from me, too.  That is a very accurate
    depiction of one of the steps taken towards the self-forgiveness
    I spoke of in 767.  Incidentally, though you don't say how you
    achieved this "dialog,"  I will offer that it is very easy to
    do meditationally (or hypnotically, when working with a therapist.)
    Again, there is more that could be done, but what you wrote was
    very beautiful and a major accomplishment.
    
    Frederick
    

    Just beautiful.
    
    Ken

    That was one of the most beautiful and effective exercises for
    healing the child within that i have ever seen.
    
    Thanks.
    
    Kim

    Beautiful!
    
    Barb

The following is another reply from the anonymous man who has been
writing to us about the problems his wife (and he) have been having
    (notes 55.24,.35 and .66)

Bonnie J
=wn= comod


******************************************************************************

	We have been both working with our therapists trying to figure where
we are going next.  Some of the things seem to be moving forward and others are 
moving backwards.

	One of the biggest problems we seem to have is that there is no longer 
any conversation or physical contact between the two of us.  I don't mean sex I 
mean just holding hands or a hug.  When I brought this up in one of our together 
sessions my wife said she didn't trust me at all so there couldn't be any 
contact on her part.  I didn't understand what she meant and asked her to 
explain a little further.  She said she couldn't right then but would work on 
how to explain later.  I let it drop for awhile.

	I met with the therapist one on one the next day.  I asked him what my 
wife meant when she said she didn't trust me, as I couldn't understand why.  He 
told me that it wasn't me she didn't trust but what I represented in my wife's 
eyes.  He told me that she sees me as her uncle, the person who abused her when 
she was young.  She feels that any contact with me will bring on the abuse she 
went through when she was young.  My next question was how I should react to 
that and how we could work through this.  His answer was she has to work through 
it and may never be able to separate the two of us.  Because we are the only two 
have ever had sex with her.

	I asked if that meant that there is a possibility that we may never get 
back together.  His answer was at this time he feels this is the way things are 
headed.  He also said there isn't a whole bunch I could do at this time.  He 
also told me this is something I should start thinking about because if it 
happens I shouldn't be to surprised.  

	I guess since this whole nightmare started this was always in the back 
of my mind.  To see our lives blown apart because of something that we couldn't 
control is hard to fathom.  

	I want to be there to support my wife in anyway I can but in the same 
time I don't want to cause her any more pain.  If I have to step out of her life 
as a husband I think I can handle that, I am not sure.  I still want to be there 
as a friend, to help continue on with her life.

	I am scared as hell.  I don't sleep real well any more, feel kind of 
empty.  I am trying not to let the kids know anything is bothering us but they 
know something is happening.  I think once the school year is finished we will 
let them know what is going on.

	Well thanks for listening it helps a lot for me to write down my 
feelings and to know that people are there.

	Peace and have a good day.

nothing to offer but hugs and hope.  gosh the world is awful sometimes.

Sara

    I don't know if anyone has spoken to this yet, but is anything being
    done to help YOU through this?  Your notes always sound so strong and
    supportive and caring about your wife.  Is there someone there for YOU?
    Are you receiving individual therapy to help you through this lonely
    and bewildering time?  You must be feeling a lot of rage as well as 
    being scared as hell.  Here is your wife who you love identifying you
    with the man who abused her.  Doesn't that fill you with involuntary
    guilt?  Doesn't it make you angry because it's so terribly unfair to
    you?  No one can blame your wife for the things she is feeling because
    of the trauma she suffered.  But don't neglect your own feelings, they
    are just as valid.  Look after yourself too, guy.  Good luck, all my
    best wishes, and, for the first time ever in a notesfile, here is a hug
    from me, because I think you really need one badly.
    								- Vick

This was a response to me, from the anon noter, in response to mail
    I sent him, where I suggested he be 'careful' right now. He asked me to
    put it in the file.
    

BJ
________________________________________________________________

Bonnie,

	I thank you for your concern, and you are right I almost made a very
bad decision about two months ago.  One of our close friends made it known to 
me that she knew that I had needs that should be met.  She said that instead 
of me going to some stranger she would take care of my needs.  I thought
about it quite alot and it came to the point where I asked her for her help.
Before we could get together to do anything, it was about a week.  During 
this time I had a chance to do some real thinking.  I called her and told
her that this was not a good idea.  It wouldn't real help my current problem
and would probably ruin our friendship.

	Alot of people have expressed that I should be getting some help for
myself.  I am doing that and have been from the start.  This has given me 
strength and the power to continue on.

	Ref.: 55.75.  Vick asked me if I felt troubled by knowing that my
wife viewed me as her uncle.  In the beginning it hurt like hell but, after
thinking it out I started to rationalize it.  I figure I am the only person
right now that my wife can work out her past with, so I will be there in
any shape or form.

	Some back ground on me that might help people understand why I feel
the way I do.  I met my wife in 1970, I just returned from Vietnam.  The
reason I had come back is because my father was dying from cancer.  I didn't
handle things real well.  I was drinking alot and just couldn't put my 
life back together.  My wife stood by me and helped me move on.  Even after
we married there were times when I was getting flash backs and made her
life miserable.  After years in counseling I made it, with out her I don't
know where I would be.  One of things we used to say in Nam keeps coming
back to me "DON'T LET THE BASTARD GET YOU".  At that time it meant the
pressure of the war.  Now it means the pressure of this nightmare.

	I owe my wife/friend more than anyone really knows.  I have made
the decision to do what ever she needs.  She did it for me.

	I will survive and so will she, somehow.

	Enough for now.

    
    	re: anon
    
    	You are an amazing person.
    
    						nancy b.

anon, you and your wife are BOTH amazing.  You both have deep strength -- she
to have helped you before, you to have come back from there.  I can only believe
that with time and work and luck, that strength will bring her back too.  She
has it, I only hope she finds the way to use it for her own healing.  Bless you
both.

    I guess I am surprised at the therapist's negativity.  It sounds
    like s/he doesn't think your wife will ever heal to the point of
    being able to handle a relationship?  
    	Linda

    
    This is mail from Mr. Anon that I received last week.
    
    _____________________________________________________________
    
Good Morning Bonnie,

	Things are happening fast and furious these days.  Thought I would give 
another update as I hopefully see somethings actually looking a little bit 
better.

	Once again my wife tried to discuss where things are going in our lives. 
The whole thing started when we were discussing what was going to happen on 
Mothers Day.  She had decided that she would work Sunday because no one wanted 
to be with her anyways.  I asked her who told her that, she said no one she just 
knew.

	Well this was the straw that broke the camel's back.  I told her that 
her children would be awfully hurt if they heard her say that.  They both love 
her very much and it wasn't fair to them what she was doing.  I then started 
into the do whats best for her thing that we keep hearing from her therapist.
Some of the things she is doing maybe best for now but what are they going to 
cause in the future.  I told her she is burning many bridges with her friends, 
her mother, her children, and with me.  Her needs are very important and we both 
understand that but she also has to understand that the other people in her life 
have needs also.

	After some crying from both sides we spoke about what is really 
happening in our lives.  She told me she needs me very much but still can't 
find where we fit right now.  I told her that we need to start working that or 
it may come to the point that it will be too late.  She said she was afraid to 
hug or kiss me because I would always want more, I told her that is true but I 
can respect her wishes at this time.  We then spoke about how we are going to
have to start rebuilding our lives on the love we both have for each other.

	It felt good for a change, we went to bed and just held on to each 
other, the first time in about six months.  While were getting ready for work 
this morning she came over and gave me a hug and kiss.  It was like a hundred 
pound weight was lifted from my shoulders.  We meet with the therapist tonight 
and have agreed to discuss where we are headed and get his opinion.  If we feel 
that he is driving in the wrong direction we are going to change therapists.

PS. I slept like a baby last night.  It felt real good to have her to hold on to 
again.  I am keeping my fingers crossed that it will continue this way.

    Anon,
    
    That is really very good news.  I'm glad to hear it.
    
    						Ann B.

I haven't written anything in here in a long time, but just had to write to
say how good that made me feel.  What great news!  Obviously, there's a long
way to go, but it would appear that things are moving in a better direction
for you both...



The best of luck to both of you!





Jim

    anon, I am so glad to hear from you, and to hear this, I could shout
    for joy!  It seems that she is assuming the worst of her fears are the
    Truth, and that there is a crack in that wall of fear now -- here's hoping
    the walls come down.  Maybe it can help her, to know that your (you and
    family) needs are real but not unmeetable nor unrealistic.
    
    love to you both -- Sara
    

    
    This is another reply from the anonymous noter, 
    
    Bonnie
    
    p.s. I'm on sabatical right now from moderating, so while I'll
    continue to post replies from people who have sent me anonymous
    mail before, it is preferable that new anonymous messages go
    to one of the other moderators.
    
________________________________________________________________________________

	We are still moving forward in our little world trying to get our lives
back on track.  Alot of times there is very little progress and then we have 
another break through.

	Last night we were meeting with our therapist and my wife said her main 
goal right now is to start building back our relationship.  This is the first 
time in along time that she has talked about "US".  It felt good to hear that 
there is still going to be a "US".

	The next thing she talked about was how we have to do this.  She said 
she needs to start a ground zero with us.  This means that she wants a 
non threatening relationship and build on that.  We decided that means she wants
to start dating and progress from there.

	This is where we need help.  One of the things she told me is that she 
doesn't know what a normal dating relationship is and what she should expect.  
We spoke of what most kids go through in their normal growth cycle and how it 
progresses.  She feels uncomfortable with us talking about it and was wondering 
if there is any books or articles that may help her understand the different 
steps or levels of a adolescent sex life.

	It really surprised me that a woman in her late thirty's would not know 
this, but when I look back at our lives it makes sense.  We never really went 
through those steps as we both in our twenty's we started dating and I thought 
at the time was that she had already played the kid games.  She missed all of 
that the kissing, petting and the other steps.  

	I feel comfortable working this whole process with my wife and think 
this experience will make us a stronger team.  I thank everyone for their inputs 
and information that I have received.  I also intend to keep the updates coming.

	Have a good day.

    great good news for you and your wife, anon!  when i read your latest i
    got really excited for you two.  starting the dating experience over
    again could be really fun.
    
    i would, as a first step, go out for a movie date, with an ice cream
    soda stop and a kiss at the door.  i'm guessing that you still live
    together and sleep together so that is a little different from teenage
    dating experiences :).
    
    i would have several of these kinds of dates, activity dates, go
    bowling, minature golfing etc.  some can even be daytime dates.
    
    on your own, scout out some "parking places" so you can go parking
    after one of the nighttime dates.  do lots of kissing, kissing, and
    more kissing.  build up to the petting part
    
    this could be exciting for both of you, and you could rediscover the
    fun side of your relationship without the stress of sex.  make a pact
    that whatever happens physically between you will take place outside of
    your house until she feels ready to build your intimacy inside the
    house.
    
    these are just some suggestions and i hope you two have a really good
    time rediscovering the best parts of your relationship!
    
    best of luck,
    
    sue