Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    I think your solution is to vote with your pocketbook and find a new
    accountant.
    
    ed

    .0 > He just shrugged it off.
    
    Perhaps, but don't let that appearance discourage you.  Your comment
    may have an impact, even though he did not apologise in real time.  Why
    did your husband not object, as well?  He would (sad to say) probably
    have had more effect.  Taking your business elsewhere is worth
    considering (if you inform this guy why).  But the best revenge would
    be to do the taxes yourself, and save the money.
    
    As to "endearing" terms, its not a one way street.  I have fairly often
    been called "dear" or "honey" by older women strangers.  When you find
    it offensive, why not reply in kind?  "Thanks a lot, ducky," or "You
    too, cutie pie."
    
    			- Bruce

    When (and where) I grew up in London it was common for men and women
    to refer to members of the opposite sex as "ducks" or "love".  Even
    with people one had only just met.  No disrespect was meant, nor
    any offence taken.
    
    However when I came to north america I found it was an easy way
    to get your head bitten off.  Needless to say, out of self
    preservation, I soon dropped the terms.
    
    When I go home I soon get back into the habit because It's such
    a common form of address.
    
    Bob

>    When (and where) I grew up in London it was common for men and women
>    to refer to members of the opposite sex as "ducks" or "love".  Even
>    with people one had only just met.  No disrespect was meant, nor
>    any offence taken.
 
Hmmm...does the fact that no disrespect is meant mean that it isn't offensive?
I object to the use of "girl" in many situations, *regardless* of defenses
along the lines of "But I didn't *mean* it to be degrading".

Anyway, I remember being *very* offended by a doctor I went to once - he was
very British, so maybe, as you say, it was just what he was used to.  I was
pretty much naked on the table, and facing away from the door; he walked in,
and before I could turn around, gave me a firm *slap* on the ass, and said
"And how are you today, Ducky?"  He continued to refer to me as Ducky for
the remainder of my visit.  :-P  I never went back to him.

D!

re: .4 D!
    
    I would be offended if any doctor, male or female, slapped my butt.
    That, unlike the term of endearment, is not a cultural difference.
    
re: .6 Herb
    
    The problem that I had as an immigrant to Canada was the culture
    shock.  For me, coming as I did from England, things were close
    enough to my norms for the differences to be difficult to comprehend
    and adapt to at first.
    
    As an immigrant from a different culture, how much of my culture
    should I expect to have to lose in order to be accepted?
    
    And how much should my new hosts accept that I am different and
    accept my differences?
    
    Answers to the above questions are at the forefront in Canada at
    the moment, which is beginning to see some negative backlash to it's
    multicultural heritage/mosaic.
    
    Bob    

    re: .8  Herb
    
    I use neither term these days, and I'm also careful using the terms
    "colonials". 8-)  And I don't feel emasculated because I don't find
    the terms of endearment that important to me.
    
    I do know of cases where older people who have used these terms
    for 50 - 60 years have been really hurt by people who have reacted
    against their use.  They weren't aware that they were saying anything
    wrong, nobody told them that it might give offence until someone
    reacted.
    
    The questions I posed were meant in the broader sense, not the
    specific.  If there are parts of my culture that are important to
    me and offensive to you, how should we resolve this conflict?
            
    But this is getting off topic.
    
    Bob

    When Danny and I were shopping for a computer, I had a similar
    experience with one salesman.  He didn't use those annoying terms
    because he acted as if I wasn't even there.  Generally what I do in
    those situations is at least give the offender a chance to clean up his
    act.  (No, I have never had this type of experience with a woman being
    the offender.)  
    
    I try to get in the person's direct eyesight.  I find myself ignoring
    people in group converstation occasionally if they aren't verbalizing
    as much as others, especially if they're at the periphery of my vision. 
    In this case, that didn't work, so I started asking questions just to
    see if I could get his attention.  He directed the answers to Danny! 
    Not only that, but I got the feeling he thought I was even *more* of a
    dumb broad for asking questions that anyone should have known the
    answers to.  So the guy lost a potential sale simply for being an oaf. 
    We walked out of the store and laughed at what a jerk he'd been.  It
    made Danny equally as uncomfortable to have all the attention directed
    at him.  I thank god I have a partner to whom I don't have to explain
    "what's wrong with this picture".
    
    If I can help it, I won't give my money to anyone who acts this way. 
    If I'm so far into the situation that I can't get out, I certainly
    won't go back again. Although, maybe if the person was trying to sell 
    me the absolutely perfect house for a real bargain, I would be more 
    willing to attempt educating him/her rather than feeling like I was
    punishing myself by walking away.
     
    When I was called "love" or "ducks" in Britain, it prickled the hair on
    the back of my neck at first.  But when I heard women doing it with
    equal frequency to men, I realized it was an acceptable cultural norm. 
    There's a woman in the cafeteria here who calls everyone "love".  She's
    very sweet and I've never considered asking her to *not* call me that. 
    So I guess I could accept it from a man in the right context.  (This
    belongs in the "My Own Sexism" topic.)
    
    ;-) Nancy

If I were in the situations you described here,  I will do the salemen
a fovor by telling them they are not smart enough to make a deal, and I will
go elsewhere to buy things from smarter people who deserve my business.

Until these insesitive and ignorant persons learn the lessons the hard way,
they will not change their behaviors or thoughts.  And other women will have
to face the same problems over and over again.

Patriachial society  has lots to learn from the rest of the world whose
system is just the opposite.

>    and if the doctor were to emigrate over here it would be
>    incredibly insensitive not to mention gauche and ill-mannered for him
>    to speak in a way that large segments of this culture obviously
>    find to be offensive. 

"If"?  He *is* here.  I went to him at a clinic in Nashua.  I am sure he
has been in this country long enough to realize that ducky-calling and
ass-slapping are frowned upon.

BTW, I *didn't* tell him I was offended.  I just didn't go to him again.
I wasn't in a mood for a fight that day - I knew exactly what I needed,
told him, he gave it to me, and I left.  And I was so shocked after the
slap on the butt that for about 10 minutes I just sort of nodded dumbly.
I couldn't believe anyone, let alone a "professional" would do that!

D!

    
    To get back to the origianal questions.
    
    The references between the boss and his secretary are just that -
    between them. If she lives with that level of communication, that's the
    way it is.
    
    If you took exception to the way he communicated with you, let him know
    and then get another accountant. Simple.
    
    ed

    In re: .13
    
    I think you're off base, ed.  The references weren't between the boss
    and his secretary, he was speaking to the client.  In any case, you
    seem to assume that the secretary is in a comfortable position to
    assert her own preferences, which sounds unlikely with this guy.  If he
    had made a derogatory racial reference about a minority assistant, or
    called a male assistant "the little boy," would you still feel neutral
    about it?

    
    
    re .0  Hi, Nancy!
    I like that you called the guy on it right then and there.  I'm not
    surprised that he shrugged it off, but it's possible that you
    embarrassed him enough that at least he won't do that in front of you
    again.  It's not clear to me that he will generalize from this
    experience to others, but I still think you did the right thing.  The
    way I see it, he mistreated an employee in front of you.  I can think
    of a few times when employers have mistreated me in front of customers
    (before I came to DEC), and I would have loved it if they told my boss off.
    
    Justine                 

    re .14
    
    Bruce,
    
    The answer to your question is YES, I would feel neutral. I have
    enough things to worry about that directly affect me. If I spend enough
    time working my own issues, and you work your issues and the secretary
    works hers....
    
    In the first part of the original statement, the 'little girl' remark
    was made about the secretary.
    
    The second part was indeed aimed at the client and should be addressed
    by the client, but let the secretary take care of the first. If you
    don't like the boss, take your business elsewhere, but stop trying to
    fight every one elses battles.
    
    ed

    re .15
    
    
    
    >experience to others, but I still think you did the right thing.  The
    >way I see it, he mistreated an employee in front of you.  I can think
    >of a few times when employers have mistreated me in front of customers
    >(before I came to DEC), and I would have loved it if they told my boss off.
    
    A couple of points here,
    
    1. YOU assume he mistreated an employee. You are basing this on the way
    YOU feel. What if the employee likes to be called this (we have NO
    evidence either way in this)
    
    2. If you have felt mistreated by a boss, it is your duty to tell your
    boss off.
    
    ed

The accountant has a chip on his shoulder that only got bigger with your
sarcasm.  That's why he directed 90% of the conversation to your husband;
normally he'd have given you 30%  :-}

I agree that you should take your business to where the service will be
rendered with a smile and customer-sensitive aplomb.  

Of course, if it *was* a term of endearment (or teasing) that was understood
and not unwelcome by the woman getting the coffee, then your comment perhaps
should have been straight rather than sarcastic.  Like, "what do you mean 
by little girl?"  "Excuse me, but I do not enjoy being ignored and so I'm
taking my business elsewhere, and I intend to let our meeting be known to
all of my acquaintances."

P.S.  If you find another accountant, send a letter of explanation to
the accountant through the "little girl" (his secretary?) who probably
screens his office mail.  ;-)

    re .12  D!, did you report this clown to the AMA ?  

Of course, the boss has the right to treat his employee however he likes 
(within the laws); but personally, I see no reason not to tell the man
described in .0 that "I am sorry, but I find your behaviour towards your
secretary and towards me so offensive that I prefer to give my business
to some other accountant".  (To me, this seems preferable to telling him
that he *should* speak differently about his secretary.  It makes it clear
that his behavior is his business, and your behavior is your business...
and that your behavior will be choosing not to put up with his behavior.

	-Neil

>    re .12  D!, did you report this clown to the AMA ?  

Er, no, why?  What did he do?  (It was not a damaging slap - not even
a five-star [ie: leaving finger-shaped welts, for those who didn't play
the same childhood games I did...children are so *weird*!])

I foundhis manner disconcerting and non-professional but I don't
think he violated any rules or anything.  And I got the feeling that
it was indeed just the way he was raised/was used to - which doesn't
make it less offensive to me, but I don't think the crime of being
too dense or pigheaded to see when new behaviors should be adopted
is worth getting someone in trouble for.

'sides, the less I have to deal with doctors, the better. :-)

D!

    I am interested in an underlying assumption in some of the responses
    - that the secretary has the burden of telling the accountant that
    she doesn't like the way she is being addressed.  In order for an
    individual to take on the task of changing the way she is treated
    and addressed, she must feel some measure of security that the
    consequences will not be 'fatal'.  It is likely that being stubborn
    about this point will cost her the job - in real life outside DEC
    it happens with distressing frequency that a subordinate who can't
    'get along' with the boss is let go.  We as a community, and the
    base-noter as a client, have no way of knowing how vital *this*
    job is to *that* secretary.
    
    Given that, it can be appropriate to bring the topic up.  Particularly
    since the client seems to know the accountant fairly well - if the
    relationship were strictly professional she wouldn't know that there
    was a daughter who could be 'the girl'.  State your objection, quietly,
    once.  The seed is sown, for both parties in the office.  If he
    continues to ignore you *as the client*, then go elsewhere and let
    him know why.
    
    Alison

    I guess it just burns me to see another person (male or female)
    treated in a condescending way, especially the boss/secretary scenario.
    
    Just because someone works "for" another person, it doesn't give
    the "boss" the right to treat that person as if they were less
    important.
    
    By the way, about a month ago I did run into this guy and his wife
    in a store and SHE had to ask HIM for the money to make her purchase!
    
    I know, I know, maybe it was just a coincidence and she had run
    out of money....it does happen to the best of us.  But I wonder!
    
    
    

    Re .23, I agree with this, and I'm really glad you wrote this reply.
     Even *inside* Digital, a secretary who dares to tell a boss she
    doesn't think he treats the people who report to him with respect,
    can be told, by Personnel, to find another job within the company.

    This happened to me 5 1/2 yrs. ago, and the manager in question
    no longer works with the company.  After I "told him off", and he
    demanded that Personnel "get rid of me", several engineers and managers
    approached me and congratulated me on telling him what a lot of
    other people had been wanting to tell him for years!  
    
    And, to think, this was the guy who had told me he hired me because
    my jeans fit me "just right in all the right places"!!
    (I admit that, at the time he told me this, I thought it was funny,
    especially since he seemed like such a nerd.  But, now, in retrospect,
    after reading =wn='s for 3 or 4 yrs., it seems like an outrage!)
    :-)
    
    Anyway, some men with high level jobs do not take kindly to having
    a mere secretary tell them their priorities are all screwed up,
    and one does have to pay the rent, ya know?
    
    Lorna
    

    It is ludicrous to think that someone with the power level of a
    secretary in a small office can take the chance of calling the boss on
    sexist/racist/ageist/etc remarks. If the woman had the power, it's
    problematic as to whether remarks like that would be made in the
    first place.
    
    As I mentioned before, making this type of thing each individual
    woman's problem takes the force out of it. Puts her "on the rag" and
    easily dealt with. It isn't a problem of attitude or atmosphere....
    it's *her* problem. The devaluing of thousands of women for thousands 
    of years is NOT a big problem. After all, it's only ONE woman, one at
    a time.
    
    I agree with the person who said "vote with your pocketbook". While it
    may be the accountant's "right" to create a racist/sexist/ageist/etc
    environment in his office, it is MY right not to support it. I would
    leave, I would write a letter and say why he was not getting my
    business. I would do *exactly* the same thing if he had referred to a
    black male employee as "boy".
    
    Maybe *this* is where the civil rights movement went. People look on
    the problem as every *individual* person-of-color's problem, rather
    than an atmosphere that will eventually destroy our society. 
    
    --DE
    

    I haven't read the 26 replies, but *I'd* sure as heck get a *new*
    investment counselor and make it damn plain WHY!

    
    absolutely, tell 'em *why*!
    
    re: .25 (i think, whose jeans fit her right)...look how much your own
    consciousness has been raised in the past few years, (at first, you
    thought his remark was funny, now you feel outrage) from reading =wn=
    etc.
    
    if we ever hope to raise the consciousness of the population at large,
    we *must* tell them what's on our mind...
    
    diane
    

    I agree with .26!  I would not only write a letter to my accountant,
    I would also copy his manager.  Why is it a manager will treat his
    secretary who works for "him" different than his direct reports?
     Don't they "work" form "him" too?  Why are secretaries perceived
    as brainless?  If we are so useless, why are we in such demand?
     This is really a thorn in my side.  I have been a secretary for
    21 years and am very good at what I do.  I am loyal, hardworking,
    devoted, perfectionist and am constantly sharpening my skills.
    
    If I had been in that room with your accountant, I would have given
    him a warning of my feelings, but to be ignored 90% of the time
    would have been the straw that broke the camel's back.  
    
    What is wrong with the men of today?  Why so little respect for
    a woman?  (Regarding the comment on the tight jeans) what a jerk!
     What's even more sad is that type of thing happens more often than
    any manager will admit.  This is a subject that once I get going
    I could write a novel.  We women have to raise our sons to have
    more respect for women.  I have two teenagers and believe me they
    know my position on this subject.  We TALK about it often and I
    demand that they 'live' this philosophy!
    
    I better quit now, my blood pressure is skyrocketing!
    
    Regards,
    
    Disappointed with male attitudes.
    

	I'm not sure that this reply belongs here, but I've been wanting
	to write about an incident which occurred and this topic reminds
	me of it.

	A couple of months ago I got suckered into seeing a little
	"presentation" (for lack of a better word) of cookware, flatware,
	silverware, etc.  Being recently engaged, I've been inundated
	with all kinds of "prizes" that I've won -- strings attached, of
	course.  I've been pretty good about avoiding most of the scams,
	but this one sounded pretty good.  The catch: Mark and I had to
	go see this presentation.

	We go.  The place looks slimy, the people look slimy.  We figure
	we'll stay long enough to collect our prize and high-tail it out
	of there.  Our presenter approaches us.  She looks pretty
	desperate for a sale.
	

	The presentation starts with the cookware.  The 1 qt sauce pan...
	the 2 qt sauce pan... the 3 qt sauce pan... (will it ever end?
	there's three shelves of cookware).  Then we get to the frying
	pans.

	"Here's our 8" frying pan.  This is a real heavy one, 5 layers of
	metal!", she says.   Then, with a conspiratorial pseudo-whisper,
	"We call it our boyfriend beater!!"  Gleeful smile.

	I look at her a little disgustedly, give Mark a look that says
	I'm sorry he's had to put up with this.

	"Now, here we have our 12" frying pan.  As you can tell, it's very
	sturdy and heavy.  Again, the 5 layers of metal.  We call this one
	our husband beater!!!"  Again, the idiotic gleeful smile.  You'd
	think she woulda got the hint the first time.  No, this woman was
	not good at subtlies.  She had to be told outright, and I was the
	person to do it:

	"I'm afraid I find nothing funny about that," I said.  "Would you
	think it was humorous if someone labeled that pan the wife beater?
	I doubt you would.  I think it's pretty disgusting."  Heart
	pounding, face probably red, but did I ever feel good!  I don't
	know if I reformed her little presentation or not, but I felt a
	hell of a lot better.

	Sue

    
    
    	RE: .30
    
    	So, did you get your "free" prize for endouring that crap??
    
    	G_B  ;^)

	HA!  I think I've finally learned that nothing is free.
	Here are the supposedly "free prizes" I could have "won":

	o free vacation in bahamas
	  -> BUT you must buy airfare AND $2,500.00 dollars of cookware!

	o 100 free rolls of Kodak film
	  -> BUT you only get this film by sending in coupons w/film you're
	     getting developed.  The development charge was greater than if
	     if you got it developed elsewhere AND bought a new roll yourself.

	o 20-40% off china and silverware FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE
	  -> BUT the patterns offered were so disgusting I'd probably barf if
	     I ate off them.

	
	What a waste of an afternoon.

	Sue

    "Free", I believe, has specific legal innuendoes. Might you drop a note
    to the Office on Consumer Affairs.
    
    They just might like to take a look at one of these "free" gifts.
    
    					Charlie.