Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    
    
    	I only go to female gynocologists.
    
    	At a recent town election, there was one office where I
    	knew none of the candidate's positions on the issues.
    	So I voted for the man with the hyphenated last name.
    
    						nancy b.
    

    
    The following entry is from a member of the community who wishes
    to remain anonymous.
    
    Bonnie J
    =wn= comod
    
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    Please post anonymously in Mark Levesque's note on sexist attitudes.
    It seemed important to admit that women can do a number on themselves,
    so I figure I'll play guinea pig.

    Oh, this may as well go into true confessions!

    1.) When men come to parties with home-made food, I assume their wives
    made it.

    2.) When women run meetings, I look at their clothes first. Then, after
    I look at their clothes, I look at their emotional level. Then, after I
    look at their emotional level, I look for make-up. Somewhere after
    that, I listen to what they have to say. As I'm listening, if they
    strike me as particularly powerful (read "strident") I wonder if they
    have as much trouble finding decent men as I do!

    3.) On the other hand, I *NEVER* discredit a man for being ugly. Maybe
    I'm just used to seeing ugly men most of the time.

    4.) When women are running things, I nitpick at how good a job they do,
    and don't give praise for much of anything short of either perfection,
    or 10 times better than their male predecessor.

    5.) When men in the workplace wear "play clothes", i.e. blue jeans,
    t-shirts, etc., I barely notice. When women in the work place wear
    "play clothes" i.e. skin-tight pedal pants, anything skimpy, I get
    annoyed. When women wear 3-4 inch heels, I think they're looking for
    dates.

    6.) When I meet women who are running jewelry or cosmetics businesses
    such as Mary Kay, Avon, etc, I give them no credit for business acumen.
    When I see men doing sales of a similar caliber, I give them kudos.

    Lets see, what else... (pretty disgusting so far, eh!)

    7.) When I meet men who say they want families, I assume that they want
    their wives to do the majority of the family raising, and that they
    just intend to foot the bill. Especially when the same men talk about
    spending 80 hour work weeks getting fledgling businesses off the
    ground. 

    8.) When I meet women who say they want families, I wait to hear how
    they're going to pull it off and maintain any kind of career. And yet,
    in the back of my mind, I wonder if they'll try to stay home.

    9.) When I read about rape cases in which the woman was "normal", 
    as opposed to a nun or small child, I get an immediate reaction of
    wondering what she did to call attention to herself.

    10.) Given the choice between recognition by a group of female peers,
    or male peers, I would prefer the latter. I might even doubt the
    judgement of my female peers for praising me.
    
    11.) When I read articles or editorials written by women, I tend to 
    look for their credentials. I give men the benefit of the doubt.

    12.) When I meet men who say that they enjoy cooking or taking care
    of small children, I assume that they grew up with lots of women and
    children; they couldn't have developed such interests on their own!

Thanx to you both! Here's a recent one for me:

A co-worker, who I was just getting to know, was talking about the million
irons in the fire he has (he's doing consulting in security, trying to get a
midnight project turned into a widely used tool, and several other things).
I tell him it sounds like he works very hard. He says "I don't work nearly as
hard as my wife." I say "Oh, does she take care of all the home stuff?". He
says "No, she runs her own business."

I still can't tell if I was valuing traditionally de-valued housework, or being
sexist. I think some of both.
	Mez

    When I see a picture of a group of caucasian men in suits illustrating
    an article, or when I see a group of men in suits discussing something
    on the tube, I assume they have nothing to say worth hearing.
    
    Sometimes I count the number of pictures of men in a publication, and
    if the count is +60% male, I assume again that the publication is not
    worth reading.
    

    I have an on-going problem when I get into meetings which are all
    women.  I find myself wondering if a) the meeting is *really* important
    and/or b) if the results of the meeting will be found credible by
    those not in attendance.  Somehow if there isn't at least one man
    present (regardless of the job levels of both men and women), it
    feels like it isn't to be taken seriously.  And that is *incredibly*
    sexist.
    
    Alison

   


   My husband and I do not have traditional roles in our family, but it 
     REALLY ANNOYS me that he knows nothing about cars and car maintenance
     (neither do I).    

   After all, he's a man -- he should know that stuff   :-) 

   
 Barbi

       
    I *really* enjoy ogling men!  And, no it doesn't worry me if men ogle
    women.
    
    ...dale

    My response (gut and honest) to 
    
    	"trust me"
    
    	"are you male?"
    
    	
    
    	"pulllleaaaaaaaase!"
    
    and this is to a man who is basically quite trusted, and trusting.  but
    it is his burden to be the recipient of these attitudes from my past 
    experiences.
    
    wrong, but true.

    I have a calendar hanging in my laundry area, of men's buns!!  And I
    can't wait to see what next's month's buns are like!!
    
    
    -Dotti.

    I think women who drive slower than I do are nerds.  I think men
    who drive slower than I do are MAJOR nerds.
    
    I think men who drive faster than I do are jerks.  I think women
    who drive faster than I do are MAJOR jerks.
    
    Sue
    
    *for an example of the correct, non-nerdy, non-jerky speed to drive,
    follow me.
    
    

    Please move comments to 1083.*   Reserve this string to personal
    accounts.
    
    						=maggie

    
    A man driving a Beemer is successful.
    A woman driving one is an arrogant yuppette...
    
    A man eating like a pig has a healthy appetite.
    A woman eating like a pig is eating like a pig..
    
    A man who forgets a phone number is preoccupied.
    A woman who forgets a phone number is a ditz..
    
    

Hi, my name is Diana and I'm a sexist...

:-)

I [still] assume that every man I meet is motivated primarily by 
undifferentiated lust, and therefore I assume any attention he gives me
is sexual, and if he *acts* like he is really listening to me it is
just because he wants to get me in bed.  (This is until I get to know/
talk to someone - don't worry all you male =wn=ers who have talked to
me, I don't think you are all motivated by less than pure thoughts. :-)

I tend to think less of women the more feminine they are.  I assume if
they wear make-up and skirts and act in traditionally feminine ways, that
they are less intelligent, less ambitious, less socially-aware, more
repressed than women who adopt more traditionally masculine traits.
I tend to think women who are in traditionally female-dominated fields
(nursing, secretary, teacher) it was because they couldn't hack doing
the "real thing" (doctor, manager, researcher)...

:-P  I try to fight these preconceptions in myself when I notice them.
But I am sure there are lots of time I form an opinion of someone based
on these and other prejudices without even being aware that my model
of them is basedon assumptions and not facts.  (Which is why one of my
big "causes" is not making assumptions.)

D!

Ok, I'll admit one:

I had been reading =wn= for a long time and had apparently formed some sort of
image of the major participants (without knowing it).

And then one day I was reading the TURBO conference (devoted to the TURBO
PASCAL programming language) and there was our Maggie, asking (and, gasp,
answering) *technical* questions.   

That's when I knew I had apparently categorized her as a secretary.

Sorry about that.

John

    
    Ok.  I am sexist too.  Towards men and women!
    
    - Any man who smiles at me, I assume to be a pervert.  Any woman,
    merely nice.
    - I too, am irritated that I have to fix all the mechanical things in
    my house.  (That my fiance doesn't do it cause "it's his job")
    - I assume that any woman dressed in a sexy manner is either stupid or
    easy.
    - If someone says "Doctor" I think of a man.  
    - Give me a woman who works in the home and a woman works outside the
    home, and I assume the 2nd woman is brighter.
    - I sometimes use a smile and a pout to get my way in stores. (How
    hypocritical!)
    - When I see an unattentive driver, I assume it's a woman
    - When I see a reckless driver, I assume i'ts a man
    - I won't stop for a man on the side of the road, but I would stop to
    help a lone woman.
    - When I'm talking to my 6 year old cousin, Casey, I tell her to be a
    doctor, lawyer, engineer or scientist and I discourage her from her
    aspirations : teaching and modeling.  ( I just can't help it!)
    
    I feel better.  How many "Hail Mary's" do I need people?
    Rachael
    
    

    I enjoy the annual Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue, too.
    
    Sue
    

    I think most women would like to have a meaningful, long-term,
    monogamous relationship, while most men would prefer to have sex
    with as many attractive women as possible during the course of their
    lifetime.
    
    I think most men can have flings without getting emotionally involved,
    and that most women can't.
    
    I think most men who claim they'd like to have custody of their
    kids after a divorce, only want the kids to hurt their ex-wives.
    
    I think that most men who say they don't think women should be able
    to have abortions without the father's agreement, only want to make
    the woman suffer, and really don't want the baby.
    
    I don't think men really love their kids as much as women do.
    
                         ------------
    
    I think most professional women look down on housewives and other
    women in more traditional jobs, and judging by the replies here
    I may be right.
    
    I would *never* work for a woman by choice.  Professional women
    usually treat secretaries worse than men do, IMO.
    
    
    Lorna
    
    

    If someone is referred to by a non-gender-specific name or professional
    title, I assume male until told otherwise -- no matter how many times
    I've kicked myself for it before.
    
    I equate a strong interest in following fashion with stupidity.
    
    It's easier to confide personal feelings and thoughts to a female
    friend than a male friend, but I tend to enjoy buddying around with
    males more than females.
    
    I tend to think of housewives as less competent, no matter how many
    times I kick myself and despite the fact that my mother stayed home
    with us while we were growing up.

    I admit that I used to think the guy that showed up to the annual NEFFA
    (New England Folk Festival) dance in a swirly skirt was strange.  Then
    I realized that is about the only time of year I wear my swirly skirts
    because it feels so great swirling out on the hot dance floor.  I
    didn't think any of the thousand other skirt wearers were strange
    simply because they wore a skirt, only him.  That was sexist against
    men.  
    
    I still automatically grant more respect to men engineers than women
    engineers on initial contact.  Eventually I end up giving engineers I
    work with the respect they deserve based on the merits of their work,
    not on their gender.  The inital reaction is sexist against women and
    is tough to overcome.  
    
    I have other sexist hang-ups that I try to recognize and overcome, but
    it is depressing to know that most of them have to do with devaluing
    women. Those same hang-ups have probably affected my career /
    life-in-general when held by other people.  Every little bit hurts.
    
    			Bb  
    
    			Bb   

    
    I assume (and a lot of people do) that any doctor, lawyer, or other
    "professional" is a man, even though MY doctor is a woman.
    
    I assume anyone who is a secretary is merely one because they can't be
    bothered to be anything else and don't have the intelligence anyway.  I
    hate being mistaken for one and usually tell someone off for daring to
    assume because I'm female and have a desk job I am one.  
    
    I assume a "sexily" dressed woman is a) a secretary (can you believe it!)
                                         b) stupid
                                         c) promiscuous
    
    
    I have to stop now because I feel so bad, I may add more later when I
    have recovered!

    
    My apologies to the poster of .24 - I misinterpreted your note.  You
    mentioned a "wmn acquaintance" - and since I had seen several people in
    this file abbreviate the name of the file to "wn" or "wmn" I thought
    you were speaking of a womannotes acquaintance - hence my alarmed
    response in .25 (now gone so nobody else would be alarmed).  Please
    feel free to repost, as I believe you may have meant a "woman
    acquaintance" - I'm sorry if my misinterpretation may have spooked you
    to delete your note.
    
    -Jody
    
    
    

    Hmmm, confessions, ehh?
    
    When I hear of someone starting out as a school teacher, I think
    "idealistic"
    
    When I hear of a woman who has been teaching for several years, I think
    "dedicated."
    
    When I hear of a man who has been teaching for several years, I think
    "no ambition."
    
    There may be other profession related sexist thoughts but none so
    flagrant, of mine anyway.
    
    ed

    I have a persistent notion that in interpersonal relations, women are
    more sensitive, perceptive, thoughtful, caring, etc. than men.
    
    Now, it is possible that this is, in fact, "true."  Yet I don't think
    that my belief is empirically based, so perhaps it is sexist regardless
    of correctness.  On the other hand, I may be "programmed" to find women
    "emotionally attractive," just as I find myself programmed to find
    women physically attractive.  In this case, is it non-sexist?  Or is it
    sexist only when it results in negative assumption about the
    characteristics of men?
    
    When I say that the belief is not empirically based (even if true), I
    have in mind that it automatically tends to shield me to a degree from
    unpleasant surprises in male behavior, and to expose me to unpleasant
    experiences at the hands of women.  So on a _subjective_ basis I am
    more likely to be "hurt" by women than by men.  Yet that seems not to
    lead to any revision of the underlying belief.  Curious.
    
    			- Bruce

    Like Bruce, I've always somehow believed that women are more
    caring and sensitive than men.  Strange I should have believed
    this, too, because in my own life I've received a lot of nurturing
    from men.
    
    Sue

    The bigness of the hair is inversely proportional to the bigness of the
    brain.
    
    8*P
    
    Lisa

    I think anyone who writes anything in =wn= is either:
    
    a wimpish clod (male)
    
    or a flaming *&%$*! feminist (female)
    
    Bruce

    Tatoos look sexy on men, cheap on women.  
    
    (I know that's terrible,
    but it's my first gut reaction and I'm trying to change!)
    
    Lorna
    

    While I don't automatically assume that doctors, lawyers, etc. are men,
    I *do* tend to assume that nurses, teachers, and social workers are
    women!
    
    I also find myself very incredulous of a man's "undying affection."  I,
    too, tend to believe that only women can feel things deeply.  This is
    particularly obnoxious of me when I automatically laugh at a male
    character in a TV show or movie for professing deep love.  Maybe
    I'll get over that one someday.
    
    I frequently find myself saying things like, "What do you expect?  He's
    a man!"  "Men are all alike!"  and "Men are all [derogatory term of the
    moment]!"  This is often when commisserating with women friends, but
    adding to stereotypes doesn't help anything.
    
    And I not only assume that reckless drivers are male, I assume that
    they're young!
    
    Susan

    
    Lousy drivers wear hats.
    
    "Men are like that!" was a favorite of my mother's.  I always hated it
    when she said that, but I'm not sure I can disagree.
    
    I had a fight with the phone company recently and when I geared up for
    "the big battle", with a letter to the area manager, who was listed as 
    I.M. Manager, I addressed the letter to Mr. Manager.  I felt pretty
    foolish when I got a phone call from Mrs. Manager's office!  (Of
    course, she was _conveniently_ out of the office that day...)
    
    CQ
    
    p.s. Lorna, I admire your honesty!

    re:.37 If it's a man stopped on the onramp, he's silver haired, thick
    glasses, handicapped license plate.
    
    I put this here insteead of in the "comments" note because it's
    definitely another sexist opinion, though also ageist.
    
    ed

    I always feel like that a mother did not teach her son the proper way
    to respect a lady if he does not help her with a coat on, open a door,
    etc, I never think that it was also the fathers job.

    If someone is a slow driver, making traffic back up, I always assume
    its either an old man or old woman - which is only true 75% of the
    time,

    I think that men at a picnic (or in a relationship) should be the ones to 
    do the BBQ'ing on a grill.

    I also think that only men can be great chefs. (Maybe cuz I can't cook
    worth a darn!)

    And I hate it when I know I'm thinking this way!!

My generalizations:

o  Women are better nurturers than men.

o  Men are better at *certain* thought processes (though I feel there
   is no inequality in intelligence).  Things that require spatial
   abstractions (chess, for example, but not exclusively).  I think
   perhaps "better" is derived from men focusing on the "thinking"
   where women focus on the "feeling."   In the book "Please Understand
   Me" by David Kiersey and Marylyn Bates (Gnosology Books Ltd., 1984),
   they describe this classification as having the only divergence from
   splitting the population in half.  Thinking versus feeling was split
   60-40 (men) or 40-60 (women) respectively.  They made no comment as
   to why (I think they avoided this), but just noted their statistic.

o  I am not partial to hyphenated names (it sets a flag with me that 
   I must overcome); I prefer the traditional naming for marrieds but find
   being less bothered by women who use their maiden names to identify
   themselves. (Thanks to Anita.)

o  I think that boys and girls have some qualities they are born with and
   is not a result of the enviornment or upbringing they recieve. (I do
   believe that environment and upbringing can have powerful influences,
   though.)

o  I also think that men (above age 24) are generally better drivers
   (sorry ladies); below 24 and they are generally dangerous (I was one
   of those idoit 17 year olds on 93 doing 107 mph.  I get the sweats now
   if I go above 72 mph.  I guess I realize now that I am mortal, huh?)

o  Sexy clothing is worn to attract, or make jealous, or both.  And I like
   distinction between clothing (but some suit outfits on women can be
   quite attractive).  Dressing up is ladder climbing; dressing down 
   belies a low self-esteem.  Dressing up one day, and down the next
   is a different story - that's versatile and okay.

o  I assume that a feminist and I will disagree on everything (how's
   that for a whopping generalization?).  I am discovering varying degrees
   of feminism that call this assumption into question.

	I hate that after meals or parties the women are expected to
	clean up, while the men watch TV, look at the car, play ball,
	etc.   However, I would still resent it if a woman chose NOT
	to help clean up, but rather participate in the "guy stuff".

	In my technical classes in college I gave more credibility to
	men's questions in class.  If a woman asked the same question
	I tended to think she didn't know what she was talking about.
	[The fact that the professors often treated them the same way
	may have contributed to this.]

	A woman's studies class I took in the sociology dept was my
	only female-only class.  I was used to a 70/30 ratio of men
	to women.  I felt quite uncomfortable in the class made up
	exclusively of women.  I tended to think that their major
	wasn't "real".  Also, once the female professor discovered
	that I was an engineering student I got a LOT more attention
	in class.

	Enough brutal honesty for one day.  The good thing about this
	note is that if I'm aware enough to notice that these attitudes
	are sexist, I'm hopefully aware enough to change them.

	Sue

    
    I am firmly convinced that women attach for more intimacy to sex than
    men.  And for this reason men are far more likely to cheat in a
    relationship than women.  That's why I think open relationships are the
    optimum way to go (but I'd guess they're not always the easiest) - and
    that way at least it's honest and both sides can savor experience 
    without guilt.
    
    -Jody