Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    'gail,
    
    I'd be distressed if I felt that large numbers of =wn= readers and
    writers were leaving because of the current problems. I hope that
    people will hang in there with us and help us through the current
    crisis. Leaving only lets those who are perceived as distruptive
    have the field.
    
    Bonnie J
    =wn= comod

    
    I'm posting this for a noter who wishes to remain anonymous...
    
    -Jody
    
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Pardon me for personifying a conference as a whole, it's composed
    of a group of people.  It's personality is the composite of it's
    dominant elements.  As such as it seems to have become just a little
    schizzy.  It's not a message of resignation or hope it is only a 
    situation that has to be.

    Some time ago I started with a friend (=WN=) seeking guidence on
    my feelings.  I spent time RO to test the waters.  I started
    contributing some of my ideas and views.  She taught me things
    about myself.  Somewhere along the line the things I started to
    learn started to be destructive.  At first I thought it must be
    my careless use of language.  That got attention, I learned to
    communicate better.  Alas she remained critical of me and my 
    imperfections.  I thought it was me, I took it to heart and got
    depressed.  After some reflection it wasn't me, my friend changed. 
    It became necessary for me to get tough and back away, ready to
    help if I could without compromising myself.  It's hard to watch
    a friend struggle with a problem.  Like relationships in life	
    some need to have distance to allow for adjustment, so it will	
    be for her.
    
    I have since gone read only, maybe some day I will again visit.
    Will we recognize each other, might we grieve for days past?  I
    suspect it depends on the way she weathers the current trauma.
    Then again I will have changed also, such is the nature of friends.
    Fond memories will exist for those moments that moved me, friends
    remember the good things always.

    Peace,
    
    a-

    
    
    	Well Gail, lately I've been feeling that way too.
    	This mode of communication has it's value. I certainly
    	see lots of opinions from a very large area and I do
    	enjoy reading from time to time. However, I am getting
    	a little discouraged by some of the interchanges that
    	occur. I don't know if that tendency will ever cease.
    	It is pretty hard to communicate effectively when lots
    	of different persons from different backgrounds come
    	together in a medium where they can't be heard, seen,
    	and sometimes the only things they know about one another
    	are what a writer has placed in an intro.   I personally
    	think that we can benefit from the discussions if we all
    	keep that in mind when responding to one another. I don't
    	see a need for the 'pit bulling' and I personally object
    	to it and will not participate nor continue to read if it
    	starts in a note. My life is too short. I don't need it.
    	There are ways to ask someone to clarify his/her statement
    	or reaction without going on an offensive. 
    	I would really like to not only read but participate as
    	well from time to time. Maybe your 'signing out' note will
    	help get this file back on track. It's got a lot to offer.
    
    						kim  
    

    re: -1
    What she said.
    
    Amen!
    
    -Dotti.

    I too have gone read only. I monitor the file, and will continue to
    read sporadically until it becomes the nurturing supportive environment
    that it once was.
    
    And I don't mind saying that I feel a great deal of anger toward those
    whose abrasive noting styles and argumentative  one-pagers have
    cluttered up the file and basically reduced it to s***.

    RE: previous comments
    
    Yep.
    
    Having gone to batch-read in lieu of leaving altogether, I am still
    ticked at the amount of trash I have to read through.
    
    Somehow, I can't just pick up and leave the file. It doesn't seem to me
    that women leaving Womannotes is the optimal thing to have happen. If
    we give up on ourselves, we're doomed. But this gets soooooo tiring.
    
    *sigh*
    

    re:.1
    
    Bonnie, that's the only thing that's preventing me from deleting
    =wn= from my notebook.
    
    --- jerry

    Thankyou --- jerry and to all those other people who have sent me
    mail with the same message.
    
    Bonnie

    I'm stubborn. I like the Atreides motto from 'Dune' - "J'y suis,
    J'y reste." ("Here I am, here I stay.")
    
    But it's no fun when you can skip a day, then next-unseen your
    way through 200 unread notes in 5 minutes, because it's SOS.

    Dana,
    
    You can "next-unseen ... through 200 unread notes in 5 minutes"?
    What fantastic response time!
    
    						Ann B.

I don't have any problem with folks checking out for a time (or for ever). But,
I've done it myself (not since becoming a co-mod though :-).
	Mez

    I am usually a read only.  I have been very hestitate to participant
    with all of the goings on in here.  I sincerely hope that this whole
    mess is straigthen out because this file is supportive
    and comforting for me.  I depend on the openess and honesty of the
    folks here.  Many of the topics discuss here help me in my own life
    and it's great to be able to relate to other wimmin's stories and
    experiences.
    
    denise 

     Good bye, I really thought there would be a chance for men to be a
    small active part of this notesfile... I can see that it will not
    happen in here in the near future. I refuse to stay and participate
    in a notesfile where my gender and opinion is not considered valuable
    by the readers in here.

               REK

    As a fairly new noter and still mostly RO, I don't think I would want
    to leave this conference for a long time to come. If the writers that
    are nasty and spiteful go away after awhile, then I am willing to wait.
    I am also more then willing to support our moderators in any conference
    decisions they feel they must make. It's all to keep -wn- alive and
    well. I will attempt to wade through all the CRAP that shows up in here
    and support the well thought out, articulate and sensible replies that
    are made to those notes. 
    
    Women, if you tend to get frustrated and do blow up at the jerks now
    and then or even mostly now, remember you have support from the vast
    majority of us all. Women and men both. After all we're all in this
    together.
    
    
    
                                     Phil

    Yes, to all these replies.  I keep thinking if I have to put up with
    all the negative politics where I work, why should I have to do the
    same in one of my favourite notefiles.  Then the sun shines at work for
    an hour, so I figure it *will* happen here too.  Yup, I can get through
    200 unseen in 5 minutes.  Even faster when I see yet another edptopic,
    just set seen and voila!!!
    
    I am sorry this file has gone the way it has, but I'm fairly patient,
    it will return back to the good ol' days soon.
    
    Still hoping to meet most of you when I hit the States in 33 days! (^'
    
    ...dale

    G'Day,
    
    	Dale, DON'T LEAVE!  If you leave then that will be a 25% reduction
    in the Aussie =wn= readership.
    
        Things have certainly been a bit 'noisy' in here in the past few
    days but as others have said you can 'turn it down' with the next-unseen
    key.  I used to think 'how am I gonna read 150 new messages in =wn='
    when I go to the office because it was all worth reading but now I can
    get all the new WORTHWHILE notes in about 1/2 hour.  This is a sad
    state of affairs for what used to be a great file but I'll hang around.
    
    David.
    

    Worry not David, I'm just having a rest/break.  I know things will get
    better.  And, as I said set unseen most of the past couple of weeks has
    been the best thing.
    
    Cheers,
    
    ...dale

    
    
    Well, I'm still here and will be staying around despite the fact a lot
    of rubbish (IMO) is being written at the moment.  I'm mostly read only
    but have replied on a couple of occasions.  When I did though I felt
    people weren't really reading what I had written and thinking about it.
    I felt ignored and kind of "discounted" so I stopped replying.  I do
    feel some of the more prolific writers in this conference should slow
    down and stop scoring points off each other.  It doesn't help anyone to
    play one upmanship.  There are a lot of thoughtful replies though and
    it has really helped me at times to read this file.  I too either hit
    'next unseen' or 'set seen' when I see certain noters replies.  If a
    lot of people do it maybe they will realise no-one is listening and
    stop and think about what they are doing.  I'm prepared to wait. 
    Despite all the problems I really enjoy reading this conference.
    
    .........Holly
    
    PS. If anyone comments on my use of "one upMANship" I will scream so
    loud you'll hear it all over the world.  OK so maybe it shouldn't be
    'man' but it is and I feel there are far more important things to worry
    about in this world.  Word usage is only a symptom, not the problem 
    and when I use the term I mean the dictionary definition.  

    re .18  re; Upmanship-ping.  :)
    
    I'll join you in your yell.  
    
    *********************************************************************                                    
    
    
    I think I'm going to bow out myself.  My "farewell" is, of course,
    wordy to the end.  ;) 
    
    I've found that this file has simply become a gender-warfare place, 
    and not a discussion place.  A couple noters on opposite sides of 
    the camp cannot seem to learn from the multiple comments on anti-pit 
    bull noting.  Like another note written recently mentioned, some
    noter's continued obnoxious behavior goes unmentioned, defended,
    ignored, while others are attacking, singled out, set hidden, jeered,
    asked why they are here, and generally snubbed.  The reasons why
    are a mystery that is painfully clear to me.  (no, that wasn't a
    typo :) 
    
    Other, quieter, reasoned voices are ignored totally for favor of
    the howling few.  Topics on legitimate concerns and questions are
    made into wargrounds for a few, while less frequent noters who reply
    have their entries run over.  Now the topics have turned from general
    issues, to "How I feel about this Notesfile" topics - and that sudden
    input of people who feel abused, heckled, singled out, and generally
    raged on are dismissed at whining.  I need not add that the people
    who are doing this are mostly men.  I need not add that if as many
    women in this file expressed the same concern, no one would point
    nasty fingers at them.  Someone might even listen.  And it saddens
    and depresses me.  (for more on that, read any one of my notes
    regarding the perils of reverse sexism and the "place" of men in
    =womannotes=)
                               
    For a while, I thought maybe my views where just too "weird" or
    not quite feminist enough, or what have you.  But thanks to a few
    words of support, mail and otherwise, I know that's not so. I wasn't
    so radical after all.  
    
    I have a moderate view of equality between the sexes, and sexism,
    and equal rights.  I believe the way to equality is equality, not
    you trashed us, so we can trash you.  I do not believe the way to
    dissolving sexism is advocating, in any way, reverse sexism.  I
    think this notesfile does.  Nobody came right out and said so, but
    it's there.  It's okay for women to be sexist here because the title
    of the notesfile is =wn=.   
    
    No, it's not.  But apparantly, I'm one of the few who think so.
    And it's distressing and ultimately, depressing.  If this notesfile
    is a small microcosm of what goes on "out there" in the "real" world,
    we are ALL in deep trouble.  In this file, men and women are fighting
    words, not gender labels.  Say the "wrong" thing, be the "wrong"
    person and you've a battle on your hands.  (note; "wrong" is not
    simply UnPC.  It all depends on who you are talking to and how "wrong
    is "wrong") 
    
    And when reading a notesfile that used to be informative, a hotbed
    for DISCUSSION, not DESTRUCTION, a method for ALL of us, moderate,
    bitter, naive, extreme, male or female to discuss concerns of women
    de-evolves to the point where it literally ruins my day, it's time
    to go.  I hate to say it, but I got more out of the inane pitter
    pat in SOAPBOX than here, and at least it didn't convince me that
    there are those who would have the battle of the sexes continue
    simply because if that disappeared, there might not be anything
    left to argue about.  I've done my best to be reasoned and sane
    and non-antagonistic, but I fear that if I remain, not only will
    I grow to despise a few I've never met (and who probably do not
    warrant that), but I shall become as bad of an example as that which
    I object to.  I talked, and I talked, and I even yelled a couple
    times, but the moderate view isn't a ready one yet, not here.  So
    many people are blowing off angry (and to a point understandable)
    team to see through the vapor.
    
    Oh, I might come back, but not for a while, I think.  I'd like to
    thank again those who have noted with calm reason in the height
    of bitter (on both sides) emotion, for those who put in topics that
    really made me think, and for those who have shown another side
    to the battle that I didn't see before.  
    
    
    ----kim 
                         
    
    

I'm getting to the point where I'm ready to sign out for a while too.
The way vociferous, obnoxious noters are mollycoddled and encouraged
to continue on their petty merry way is absolutely ridiculous.  From
reading these notes, and having participated in =wn= over the years,
there are many MANY interesting voices being squelched under the din
of (mostly male) blitherings.

I now feel uncomfortable entering topics I feel might be of interest 
to the community, lest their content be nitpicked apart.

I now feel uncomfortable responding to interesting topics for similar
reasons expressed by Kim.

This conference used to be a source of inspiration to me.  Several of
the women in here have showed (not told; men seem to feel teaching is
by endless streams of words, women teach by example) me that feminist
is not a dirty word, and I owe it to this conference that I consider
myself a feminist.  It saddens me, and obviously others, that nothing
is apparently being done to ebb the recent influx of obnoxious parti-
cipation.  And until it does, I remain erstwhile-read-only.

Carla

    Basically, I've been a read only member, contributing only when I felt
    I had experienced a certain situation or could offer some advice.
    
    Majority of the time, I read the basenote title and hit next unseen. On
    the rare occasion where I do find a topic that appeals to me, it is
    spoiled by some one that loves to antagonize the noters. The mods and
    co-mods know who these individuals are, yet nothing is done to curb
    them. 
    
    On another note... There are notes and responses that seem to go on
    forever. You could spend 15 - 20 minutes reading on reply! A summary is
    more informative and interesting to read than a reply that rambles on
    for 100 lines or more.
    
    Just MHO

in re .19
    
    Kim,

    
>    I've found that this file has simply become a gender-warfare place, 
>    and not a discussion place.  A couple noters on opposite sides of 
>    the camp cannot seem to learn from the multiple comments on anti-pit 
>    bull noting.  Like another note written recently mentioned, some
>    noter's continued obnoxious behavior goes unmentioned, defended,
>    ignored, while others are attacking, singled out, set hidden, jeered,
>    asked why they are here, and generally snubbed.  The reasons why
>    are a mystery that is painfully clear to me.  (no, that wasn't a
>    typo :) 

One reason that the moderators do not interfere more actively in
those types of situations is that the community voted down the
proposal that we do so.

We are not mothers or dictators in the file. It is our job to
guide, to lead by expample, to advise, and when things get rough
to urge people by notes by mail and phone to calm down. But
we ultimately have to allow people to be themselves and not
act as censors exept where Digital noting policy is  breached
or a person specificially complains.

   > Other, quieter, reasoned voices are ignored totally for favor of
   > the howling few.  Topics on legitimate concerns and questions are
   > made into wargrounds for a few, while less frequent noters who reply
   > have their entries run over.

Very often the quieter reasoned voices are heard, and there are notes
appreciating their input. If more quiet voices would speak up when
vigorous discussions get going this would in and of itself help to
derail the type of notes that you dislike. I know it is hard to
interfere in the middle of a discussion between two people who are
actively going after the subject from different sides, however, the
more often that people are willing to do so the less often such
discussions will 'run away' with a note.


    >For a while, I thought maybe my views where just too "weird" or
    >not quite feminist enough, or what have you.  But thanks to a few
    >words of support, mail and otherwise, I know that's not so. I wasn't
    >so radical after all.  
    
    >I have a moderate view of equality between the sexes, and sexism,
    >and equal rights.  I believe the way to equality is equality, not
    >you trashed us, so we can trash you.  I do not believe the way to
    >dissolving sexism is advocating, in any way, reverse sexism.  I
    >think this notesfile does.  Nobody came right out and said so, but
    >it's there.  It's okay for women to be sexist here because the title
    >of the notesfile is =wn=.   
    
    >No, it's not.  But apparantly, I'm one of the few who think so.
    >And it's distressing and ultimately, depressing.  If this notesfile
   
In general I agree with what you've said above. My views aren't that
different from yours. My major question is what specific things you
define as 'reverse sexism' and to determine that we'd have to carry
on further diaglogue.

  in re .20

Carla,


>The way vociferous, obnoxious noters are mollycoddled and encouraged
>to continue on their petty merry way is absolutely ridiculous. 

How do we as moderators encourage or mollycoddle 'vociferous, obnoxious
noters'?

Give that we cannot ban anyone from reading or writing in womannotes,
how would you suggest (other than or in addition to the methods
we currently use, admonishing in the file, mail, phone calls) we
change this scenerio?

>I now feel uncomfortable entering topics I feel might be of interest 
>to the community, lest their content be nitpicked apart.

>I now feel uncomfortable responding to interesting topics for similar
>reasons expressed by Kim.

Have you considered using the SRO notes?


in re .21

 >   the rare occasion where I do find a topic that appeals to me, it is
 >   spoiled by some one that loves to antagonize the noters. The mods and
 >   co-mods know who these individuals are, yet nothing is done to curb
 >   them. 
  
Again see above (we are all comods by the way) other than what we are
doing, allowing free access to all individuals who are Dec employees
as we are obliged to do, what else do you suggest the comods do?
  
    
    
I would be sorry to lose any of the three of you from the file permanently,
you have all made valuable contributions.

Bonnie

 I depends on how it disrupts the conference. If it does not violate DEC policy,
and disrupts the conference merely because it contains unpopular/controversial
ideas, their hands are tied. (I think).

 The Doctah

    Mark
    
    What you say is quite true. We cannot ban or exclude people from
    the file because some people find their ideas or noting style
    distasteful. Further what some people object to others like.
    
    What we do care very strongly about is to try and make this file
    a place where people are comfortable to write about what concerns
    them.
    
    But we often don't hear that people are uncomfortable until they
    leave and post notes like this one or send us mail. Many leave��
    without even letting us know why.
    
    We aren't mind readers. We have deliberately chosen not to use
    a 'heavy handed' style of moderating. We have tried as much as
    possible to empower the members of the community to 'own' the file.
    
    I would encouage any noter who is sitting fuming at some note
    and wondering why the moderators don't do something to think about
    what they can do.
    
    This file belongs to all the members, and I encourage them to
    take ownership of what they personally can contribute.
    
    Bonnie J��
    =wn= comod

    When I first came to this file, I already had a pretty clear sense of
    my identity as a woman-identified woman, and that identity gives me
    a place as a woman in this male-dominated world.  That means that the
    male-noise makes me angry, but it has also means that I can walk away 
    from it pretty easily -- sometimes I have taken a break from the
    file, and other times I have just found a way to detach myself from
    the violence of it.  I don't hate men, but it doesn't worry me to be 
    accused of manhating.  The men that I care about and who care about me 
    would never accuse me of such a thing.

    What really makes me sad is that I know that there are women out there
    who are still trying to find a way to be  in this male-dominated culture.  
    For those women, Womannotes could be a respite from the noise and the 
    fear and the hatred.  For some women Womannotes is the only 
    woman-centered space they have or have ever had.  Womannotes offers
    a chance not to agree and only be agreed with but to share, to learn, 
    to listen, to feel listened to.  
   
    A friend of mine is one of those women that I'm thinking of when I
    talk about Womannotes feeling like an unsafe place to be.  I asked
    her to write down some of her impressions.  (She reads the file
    pretty regularly but hasn't written here.)  I told her I would post
    what she wrote anonymously.

        From my Friend (A Read-only womannoter)
	>>The problem is a lack of compassion, willingness to listen, 
          understand, or change (or admit to needing to change); a 
	  lack of interest in learning from one another (or to admit that 
	  we need to learn anything at all, both about ourselves and others); 
          engaging in the kinds of -- I can't even call them conversations 
          -- debates that tear holes in the fabric of communicating with 
          an other, one whose differences might cause you to examine yourself.

	  Being a woman-identified woman (need I state the obvious: in a 
	  male-dominated culture) is a barrage to one's identity.  When 
	  a woman has courage enough to live with the awareness of difference, 
	  living in a man's world is difficult.  She is constantly assailed 
	  with reminders that she is dominated by a culture in which men 
	  wield the bulk of the power.  Men are her bosses, and make decisions 
	  about her career; men are seen to be authorities on everything from 
	  automotive problems to religious dogma.  It was strongly recommended 
	  to me recently that I attend a seminar regarding security matters 
	  at Digital.  A movie was shown that discussed our various security 
	  classifications.  Who were portrayed as the experts on these 
	  matters?  White men.  This is insulting to ANYONE who is not a 
	  white man.  It's the very thing that a woman faces many times daily
	  if she has her eyes, her heart, and her mind open.  It's frightening, 
	  frustrating, and infuriating to be constantly reminded of one's 
	  inferiority.  One hopes that somewhere there is a light that leads 
	  to a safe place, somewhere where she can feel understood and valued.  
	  When these places begin to disappear, she despairs that there is 
	  nowhere she can go to break from a world in which she has to fight 
	  battles, make difficult, unpopular choices, and endure violence and 
	  hatred.>>
	
    Back to me (Justine):

    When I come into this file, I see bloodbaths between some men and women 
    and between some men -- fights over points of honor or law or semantics.  
    I can think of only a few such fights (where you practically want to go
    and pull them apart, but I do aknowledge their occurrence, although I 
    see them with nowhere near the same frequency) between women.  What I see 
    a lot more of in women is a situation where two or more women disagree over 
    firmly-held beliefs, but they do it in a way that does not offend or 
    attack.  In fact, they often apologize to each other if they feel they 
    might have offended.  That kind of courtesy and respect gives me great 
    hope.  And it's that kind of thing that I want my sisters to see.  But 
    I think that what happens is that some women come into this house 
    and hear people yelling and throwing dishes in the front room, so they 
    never venture into the den where there's a lively, but respectful debate 
    going on.  I feel sad, hurt, and angry that the women who really want to 
    know other womens' experience get frightened off by men whose behavior
    makes me feel that even if it's not their intention to intimidate 
    and/or annoy women, they certainly don't mind if they do.  Women's 
    feelings of annoyance or even fear don't seem as important to some
    men as their desire to have vigorous debate. 
    
    There are still some lovely moments in this file.  I'm still moved by
    the caring, insightful, intelligent women in this file, and I'm often
    in awe of the courage many of us demonstrate when we share our 
    stories and when we defend our right to have this space and have it 
    mean something to us.  I hope that women in this file who share my 
    desire to have a file dedicated (at least in part) to issues of 
    interest to women and who share my concern that women who come to
    this file might be frightened off by the belligerent males will
    join with me in trying to model the behavior that we'd like to 
    see.  I think FWO topics help some.  But in the general discussion
    topics I'd like to see us find a way to stand our ground but to do so
    in such a way that we don't respond in kind to the men who either want
    to win or want women to lose --- they can usually get one of those
    outcomes to happen.  That's why it's not safe to play; we can't win.
    Like stockbrokers, they profit from every exchange whether it's at
    a loss or a gain.  

    About two years ago I witnessed a remarkable display of courage from 
    that same woman I just quoted, and I'd like to describe what
    happened as a more concrete model of what I would like to aspire to 
    in this file.  (My friend said it would be ok for me to tell this 
    story here.)  My friend, who is straight, went with me to a Gay Pride 
    celebration in western Mass.  It was a nice day, and we went to the 
    rally site and spread out a blanket to sit on.  Shortly after we 
    arrived, a schoolbus pulled up, and 50 or more(?) white-shirted, 
    Evangelical Christians (I'll refer to them as counter-demonstrators 
    in the rest of this note) got off the bus and began singing and praying 
    (loudly) in an attempt to disrupt the parade and rally.  The Gay 
    Pride organizers had a permit to hold a parade and rally; the 
    counter-demonstrators didn't register their counter demonstration 
    with anyone in the town.
  
    The counter-demonstrators, in an attempt to get closer to the stage, 
    started trampling over and standing on our blanket.  I started to try
    and pick up the blanket and signaled to my friend that we should move.  
    She refused.  We had every right to be there, she said, and they were 
    going to go around us -- she would not move.  Then the police came, 
    and they moved the counter-demonstrators away from the rally, but 
    through all that, my friend did not move off the blanket.  She was 
    pushed and bumped, and she didn't hit, kick, or push anyone back, but 
    she didn't move.  The police were able to tell that we were not with 
    the counter-demonstrators because we were not fighting, and they ended 
    up protecting our space.
    
    If we'd moved away, as I had wanted to do, the counter-demonstrators
    would have been closer to the stage and more able to disrupt the rally.  
    Plus, we would have been displaced, and this felt bad both morally and
    literally -- we had good seats!  If we'd fought back (kicked, punched,
    hit), the counter-demonstrators would have won some moral victory, and 
    the police would have had to protect them (even though they started 
    it!), and we might have ended up in jail.  But by standing there, we 
    affirmed our right to be there, and we gave the police cause to remove 
    the counter-demonstrators -- they were hurting us and were clearly 
    intruding on our space -- we made it easier for the police to
    do the right thing.

    When things heat up in this file, I think about this incident and what 
    it has meant to me.  I think we need to stand our ground without giving 
    the abusers the chance to claim victim status.

                                 

    re: .26 by Justine

    I admire the courage and conviction of your friend in dealing with
    the counter demonstrators.  I know I would have moved.
    
    Cheers,
    	Bob

    RE .27 Both you and your friend have an unbelivable amount of courage.
    You backed her to the hilt in her decision to peacably stand her ground
    and that also takes courage. I applaud both of you. I would also like
    to applaud the authorities for recognizing that you were not causing
    any trouble and treating you like human beings who were just minding
    their own business. Much to often the police will just try to treat
    everyone the same in these situations. 
    
    You both have my deepest respect. Thank you for posting this reply. It
    made my day.
    
    
                                  Phil

    re .27
    
    I appreciated your thoughts and those of your friend.
    
    In this file, I have also noticed pugnacious behavior on the part of
    several women as well as sensitivity and understanding by men.  PLEASE
    don't lump the belligerants together when it doesn't apply to all. 
    Each one of us has an individual style of noting and responding and it
    goes far beyond gender.  Our opinions are based on what we know and
    what we have experienced.  Since there is such a wide readership in
    this file, we need to be acutely aware of sensitive issues.
    
    I heard an interesting bit on NPR last night.  An article from the
    "Harvard Busines Review" addressed the issue of changes in the
    workplace and the how the workforce will soon consist of 85% women and
    minorities.  As these changes occur, corporate culture will change. 
    "Traditional" roles and career paths will be altered and questioned,
    and issues such as those presented in this file will become very real
    for many (i.e., advancement, pay equity, family & career) as the
    demographics change.
    
    I applaud the people in this file who have stood up for their
    convictions, and those who seek clarification and knowledge.  I don't
    agree with some of the stances, but it is up to me to figure out why.
    and also to know that those stances are the choice of the individual
    author.  
    
    Judi
    

    Great note, Justine.
    
    We really must find a way to stay on *our* blanket, and not abandon
    our space to those who would displace us, whether through ignorance,
    lack of understanding, or malice. The motivation is irrelevant; what
    we do to claim our space isn't.
    
    I'll put the cooler on this corner.....
    
    --DE
    

    Herb, (1073.31), from my perspective the laws being violated are the
    laws of human decency in personal interactions.  The police are each of
    us, set to guard OUR OWN actions.  Some of the police recognize who the
    violators are.  Unfortunately, the police set to control the violators
    don't seem to recognize the violations.
    
    Karen

    Yes, herb, and thanks.  But I have received mail that tells me that my
    posting (.32) has been misinterpreted by at least one reader.  Please
    let me be VERY clear that I'm not pointing any accusatory fingers at
    the mods!  I don't consider them the police here, and that was the
    intent of my note.  I believe we each should be our own police, control
    our own actions, and let everyone else do the same.
    
    But then, as has been pointed out to me by others, I'm a bit on the
    naive side and sometimes still expect adults to act like adults.
    
    Shame on me.
    Karen

    I have read most of the notes in this conf, and I just wanted to add my
    two cents.
    
            I LOVE WOMANNOTES!!!!  WHEN I NEEDED HELP, I GOT IT HERE!
    
    If something someone says bothers you, don't read it.  As I have said
    before I am a relatively new noter, I have trouble with the acronyms
    used, and I get confused when people are replying to things that don't
    have a topic.......but if something bothers me that I am reading, I
    STOP!  I CHOOSE TO NOT READ IT!
    
    This is a great Conference, maybe I am being too simple, but gosh
    without the help and hugs from all the wonderful people here, I would
    have been a basket case!
    
    I LIKE THIS CONFERENCE!!!!!!!!!!! AND THE MODERATORS ARE DOING JUST
    FINE, IF YOU DON'T THINK SO, ITS OKAY FOR YOU TO LEAVE, IF THAT'S WHAT
    YOU WANT......I DON'T WANT THAT, SO I AM HERE TO READ WHATEVER SOMEONE
    ELSE HAS TO SAY!
    
    Think about it, where else could you get this resource  at work?
    

    answer
    
    thanks .35
    
    :-)
    
    bj
    
    =wn= comod

    I think it's important to note that no one is leaving the conference
    due to the actions/inactions of the co-mods.  People are just generally
    sick of the noise and need a rest is my interpretation.  
    
    I used to open this conference first; now I save it for when I have the
    time and energy, or just open it and next_note thru quickly.  It's not
    coming off my notary like a lot of others have done.
    
    mdh

    Recently, I wasn't able to get the time to access =wn=, but
    did access today.... 1200+ unseen?! Going from next_unseen topic
    to another, the same tone shone thru.....  .0 hit it on the
    head with the "pit bulling" comment. I have been READ_MOSTLY
    for a while and now I am signing off. The seemly constant 
    men_bashing that arises really disgusts me. IMO, *not all men
    hate women*!! The language/verbage in the notes is such a
    distraction (with having to keep my dictionary handy and all),
    that I really lose the true meaning of the responses.
    
    I've had it with this file...... goodbye.
    
    pat
    

    RE: .39 -< How classic >-
    
    Can you please explain your comment.  What is classic?
    
    
    Holly.
    
    

    Holly,
    
    Reply .38 is a classic signoff for its noting subset.
    
    						Ann B.

     Ann,
    
    	I may be obtuse but I still don't get it.  Are you having a go (at
    .38)?   What noting subset?  Have you a problem with someone being
    fed-up and leaving?  Do you think they should "stick around" and help?
    Why?
    
    		Holly

    In my opinion, this file is not a man hating file, nor has it ever
    been, if a couple of read-only readers interpret this file that way,
    maybe they haven't been reading the entries, but keep hitting next
    unseen.  there is nothing in this file that the noters here need
    apologize for, there are a couple of pit bull noters, they are not the
    majority of the members of this community, they are a very very very
    small minority. 
    
    so to those who choose to leave because of their belief that this is a
    manhating file, I say, goodbye, but I'll stay here because I believe
    different. 
    
    vivian

    	It may (or may not) be obvious to everyone that the incidence of
    	pit-bull noting (as it was originally defined) has gone way, way,
    	way down in the weeks following the Ping Pong Vote Note.
    
    	Pit-bull noting was defined as rapid-fire back and forth exchanges
    	between two or three people that went on and on and on and on (in
    	a flurry of You-said-no-I-said-no-you-said notes with endless quotes,
    	word-by-word and point-by-point.)  That was my understanding of it.
    
    	Now, we seldom, seldom see these exchanges go on for more than one
    	or two replies at a time (from each person) and we aren't seeing
    	nearly as many word-by-word, point-by-point confrontations.
    
    	If any of us here believes we should have a file where no one ever
    	disagrees in a somewhat heated way with anyone else (ever!) - we've
    	set a goal for ourselves that can't possibly be acheived. 
    
    	Notesfiles (especially conferences with a potential for political
    	discussions, as ours is) are not perfectly peaceful places at all 
    	times.
    
    	We need to make a choice here.  We can throw up our hands in despair
    	every time we see a single cross word (and spend weeks discussing
    	how and why cross words happen every time we see one,) or we can
    	accept that this environment will never be a perfectly peaceful
    	place (and make the best of the things some/many/most of us find
    	so wonderful about Womannotes, even if it means taking breaks now
    	and then, or even leaving permanently, if we must.)
    
    	Let's not set ourselves up for failure, though, by expecting eternal
    	sweetness and light in this space at all times.
    
    	We're human, so it's going to be rocky in the file from time to time.
    	It doesn't mean the file hates men, nor that we all deserve to burn
    	in hell for not having created perfect peace in this space.
    
    	There's still a lot of things to love about Womannotes!  The basenote
    	from the "HAPPY NOTER" was great - we really do have a lot to enjoy
    	and appreciate here still!

    ... =wn= Flotation Tank!
    
    :-) Not that this has ever happened or is likely to, by the way... but
    I feel safe in predicting that any note(r) even verging on the
    unpleasant in that *sanctum sanctorum* would be summarily either dunked
    or massaged to death!! :-)
    
    Off to the Aqua Vitae, anyone?

Re: 1073.44 

>    	It may (or may not) be obvious to everyone that the incidence of
>    	pit-bull noting (as it was originally defined) has gone way, way,
>    	way down in the weeks following the Ping Pong Vote Note.

*I've* noticed! And since I was one of the people who griped about it, I
guess it's only fair to say I appreciate the fact that it's been happening
much less lately.

Kathy