Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    
    
    Buy that book Dr. Ruth talks about, "The Joy Of Sex", and read
    it together.  Set the right atmosphere, and let it be a catalyst
    for some indepth discussion about your desires. 
    
    Good luck!
    
    nlg

    
    Do not talk about it with him while you are in bed.  I've
    gone through a similar situation.  Worked out fine.
    It was easier to talk about the issues outside or away
    from the atmosphere in which they take place.  Made
    for much less pressure when the time was finally right.
    
    Mi

    Yes, don't talk about it during the act.  That never seems to be
    the receptive time...  ;)  for discussion that is.
    
    If I were you, (and your mileage may vary), I'd just bring it up.
    You can preface it many different ways.  "There's something I'd
    like to talk to you about, but it's kind of sensitive...."  Certainly
    make sure that you aren't perceived as criticizing your hubby as
    a person, just that you would like to feel included in bed as well.
    Provided he's a listening sort of person and gives a hoot about
    you (which it would seem), he'll probably be quite happy for you
    to give him clues about how to make YOU happy too.  Speaking for
    myself, this seems to be important to people who care about their
    bedroom buddies.  ;)
    
    If his ego is fragile, it might be a bit more difficult, but should
    be done nevertheless.  If it bothers you over enough time, sex won't
    be very much fun and you might get resentful, or just out and out
    uncooperative -- which might come as a surprise if he didn't know
    what was going on to start with ("Why are you mad, honey??")
    
    Talking it out is best -- don't be shy.  Quoting from a book scene
    set in bed:  "Hey, I'm here, too...."
    
    ---kim

I would recommend "sensate focus" - this is an activity where lovers
concentrate on learning what touches (first non-sexual, then sexual)
feel good to their partners...from my text on human sexuality
"...partners are told to take turns helping one another experience
pleasure, at first without touching the genitals or breasts.  The
goals is for them to discover the great pleasure that comes with
touching and being touched.  Each partner is allowed to be 'selfish'
in turn.  Each partner guides the other's hand to show the best spots and 
best pressures for stimulation..."

Any sex therapist and many marital counselors can explain this technique
to you; or there are books you can learn it from.  I believe that
Dr._Ruth's_Guide_for_Married_Lovers (Ruth Westheimer) explains the
technique, Joy_of_Sex (Alex Comfort), For_Eachother or For_Yourself 
(Lonnie Barbach) might also be books to check.  (These are all good
books too...as someone else recommended, simply reading these with your
partner might be all that is necessary.)

If all else fails, contact:
	American Association of Sex Educators, Counselors and Therapists
	(AASECT)
	11 Dupoint Circle, Suite 220
	Washington DC 20036

They can recommend literature to help, or refer you to a therapist in
your area.

I have more information and addresses, so feel free to contact me if you
want.

D!

oh, one more thing I forgot to include...you will have to suggest
sensate focus to your partner, obviously.  Rather than suggesting that
it is a "cure" for bad sex, or some such, just say that it is an activity
that you read/heard about that sounds enjoyable, and you think that both
of you will benefit from it (you will) and that you would like to try
it.  No mention of sexual inadequacy or dissatisfaction, etc, is
necessary.

I've been there - I know how hard it is to tell your partner you aren't
satisfied, since a lot of people are very insecure about their sexual
abilities.  Also, our society devalues sex, and especially women's
role in sex, such that women aren't supposed to complain about not enjoying
about it since it is a "man's activity" anyway.  And it is considered
superficial to complain about sex-life, since relationships are supposed
to be based on love, not sex, then the sex doesn't really matter.  I think
this is total BS, and a happy, healthy sex life is very important to a
happy healthy marriage/relationship.

D!

    I would definitely discuss this before it turns into a dis-taste for
    love making. My wife and I had some problems a while back (not sexual
    thank Heaven) and we picked up some books on relationships etc.. Of
    course sex was covered in the books, and I learned some things about
    how women derive sexual pleasure. My wife has stated that it was great
    before, but now had become almost unbearable. ;-) (Some/a lot of this was 
    mental as opposed to sexual, but I still learned how to physically 
    please her more). She half joked about where I learned this. I told her 
    it was from reading (portions of) these books. So, books and discussion 
    (outside the bedroom) are a way to clear things like this up. I 
    recommend it, and it sure is a fun learning experience. ;-) It will be
    better for you, and because of that, it should get better for him! The
    mental satisfaction is wonderful, knowing you are _both_ truely fulfilled.
    dep

    Back in college, a guy I was seeing read my copy of "The Hite Report",
    (the original).  Things certainly changed after that even though they
    weren't bad to begin with!  Don't be afraid of his ego, *play* to it!
    Approach it with the "so you wanna be a big stud?" attitude.  Give
    him TONS of positive reinforcement, (to stroke that ego!), whenever he
    makes any moves in the right direction and of course reciprocate and
    let it be known that you are gratefully reciprocating.  Show him what the 
    "right approach" can turn a woman into.  Make him WANT what you want by 
    making it well worth his while.  It's a two way street.  I can't imagine 
    many hetero men disliking the idea of having a hot woman who just craves 
    their touch...  

There's an excellent book called called Male Sexuality by Bernie
Zeigfield that addresses many of these issues and shatters many of the
myths about male sexuality that we males are taught.  Also there are
some (what I thought) were good books about women's sexuality called
Sexual Happiness For Women by ??? that might be of interest to him in
terms of understanding women's sexuality better.

I hope everything works out for you, I know it's hard to talk about
stuff like this but I bet if you can work it out, you'll be even
closer and more intimate.  How wonderful!

john  (Every "problem" is a great teacher.)

    
    Was your husband always this way?  (I don;t think your note said.)  If
    he wasn't always this way, then maybe this change in behavior indicates
    a problem in your relationship.  (I'm sorry if this upsets you, I'm
    just trying to cover all bases.)
    
    If however, he has always been this way then I agree with all of the
    previously made suggestions.  If you feel uncomfortable talking
    directly about sex then perhaps you can make a game out of it.  One
    idea that I heard somewhere was to make bets and the loser has to
    perform sexual favors.  Just agree on what the favor is ahead of time
    and make sure it's exactly even.  Another idea sort-of follows the 'you
    scratch my back, I'll scratch yours' philosophy.  Don't touch him until
    he touches you and if he stops touching you, you stop.  If he slows
    down his touch, slow down yours.  Or how about an off-handed, "honey,
    don't stop, I'm still horny!"  It's blunt, to the point,  but if said
    with a smile it shouldn't insult him.  (Unless he thinks you're done.) 
    A problem I've also heard about, is sometimes it's not obvious to a man
    just when a woman is enjoying herself much less when she's satisfied. 
    So, if you make it obvious when something is good and have no reaction
    when none is appropriate, maybe he'll catch on.
    
    
    I hope this will be received in good taste.  It is meant that way.
    
    

    
    The following is a reply from a member of the community who wishes
    to remain anonymous..
    
    Bonnie J
    =wn= comod
    
     ____________________________________________________________
    Bonnie,

    Would you submit this anonymously?  Thanks...

    -----------
          
    This difficulty is not unfamiliar to me.  Would some of the men care 
    to talk about their feelings?  I'm of the "straight talk" school --  
    I think the problem should be named and talked about, rather than 
    initiating "play" with a hidden agenda -- however, I've not had
    startling success with the straightforward approach, either.  (And 
    I don't think it's because I'm without tact.. :-) But, it takes a 
    big push for me to be assertive and articulate, even under less
    "charged" conditions, and when I meet with a passive resistance 
    (seeming unresponsiveness which is perhaps based upon fear and 
    embarrassment) it doesn't take much to discourage me.  My partner 
    is so difficult to talk to that I think no other woman has ever 
    talked to him about "this".   

    Although I think that you question (for mens feelings) is a good one, I
    also think that you might be in the wrong forum for that information.
    
    Requesting men to discuss feelings in womannotes sounds a little odd to
    me.  This file is for discussions pertaining to women, NOT men.
    

    Well I for one would like to hear what men have to say about this
    topic!  Even if it IS in =wn=.  That hasn't inhibited too many of them
    in the past!
    
    It's all well and good for woman to tell each other how to handle a
    sensitive topic such as this, but unless we hear from the men, we'll
    never know until (possibly) too late whether our shared advice is worth
    anything.
    
    After all, it is the MALE ego the base noter is concerned about.
    
    Karen

The following is a reply from the author of note .11
    
    Bonnie J
    
    =wn= comod
    
    ___________________________________________________________
    
    To answer your questions: No, I am not asking that men reply to my
    response .11, and yes, I'd like to hear men's thoughts about 
    "straight talk" about sex.  However, the scope of my question is 
    not so narrow as that -- I'm also asking for words that describe 
    how a man comes to know what thrills the woman he is making love 
    to.  And if he doesn't know what thrills her, what prevents him 
    from finding out?  And, for those men who have thought they were 
    satisying their partner and then found out differently, what did 
    that feel like and how did they respond?

    I suppose my questions are not aimed at "sensitive new age men"...

    Question for the basenoter: are my questions OK?  I don't want to 
    "move in" on your note.

>I'd like to hear men's thoughts about 
>    "straight talk" about sex.

 I think "straight talk" about sex whether from man to woman or woman to man
is a great idea (and let's not leave out same gender sexual communication!)

>I'm also asking for words that describe 
>    how a man comes to know what thrills the woman he is making love 
>    to.

 Boy, is that a tough question! There are two ways (that I know of) to tell
when you are doing something the woman finds enjoyable. One is for her to tell
you point blank that she's enjoying herself. The other way is to notice her
reactions to various things and alter your behavior in reaction thereto. The 
unfortunate thing is that some women choose to shield their partner's ego
from unpleasant realities and will prevent real communication by "faking"
responses or prevaricating about her experiences. In the process, dishonesty
is introduced, and the net effect is that the sexual experience loses some
degree of richness (especially for the woman). Unfortunately, not all men are
willing to accept constructive criticism; some even deny that the deficiency
lies with them; "What do you mean my technique is wrong? I've made love to
xxx women, and they all loved it. There must be something wrong with _you_!"

 And one minor nit, in fact, I hesitate to even bring this up. You said "woman
he is making love _to_." I prefer to think of it as "making love _with_." It
describes a more active role for the female which is preferred. It also tends
not to objectify the woman as much. The woman is not a rag doll; she is a
fully operative human. /end_nit

>And if he doesn't know what thrills her, what prevents him 
>    from finding out? 

 Inability/unwillingness to communicate (whether the problem lies with the
transmitter or the reciever).

>And, for those men who have thought they were 
>    satisying their partner and then found out differently, what did 
>    that feel like and how did they respond?

 How would I feel? Hmmm. My initial reaction would probably be that my 
insecurities would be reaffirmed. :-) Then my pride would turn on, and I'd do
anything I could to change her opinion. :-) :-)

 The Doctah

    
    This is a reply from the base note author to the author of
    notes .11  and .16
    
    Bonnie J
    =wn= comod
    
    
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
           yes, your questions are fine.  In fact you've put your
    finger on exactly part of my problem - I'm not talking about a
    new-age man.  I'm talking about a wonderful, loveable, mate-for-
    life type of man who happens to be a bit too sexually repressed 
    for me.  Perhaps he was always this way, but in the glow of love
    and the thrill of a deepening relationship, I didn't notice.  Now
    we've spent enough time together that the glow and the thrill
    are wearing off and I don't want to be left with nothing.  I can't
    believe he wants to be left with nothing, either.

    Reading books is fine, but when someone doesn't recognize s/he has 
    a problem, reading about the solution to that problem isn't likely to
    sink in or be recognized as a "problem I have to pay attention to."

    Somehow I will still have to tell him, one way or the other, "Honey,
    you're just not cutting it."  I don't want to devistate him in the
    process.

    So, yes, male feedback is definitely welcome.  Probably even essential.

    You might possibly want to cross-post this to MENNOTES.  They post
    anonymously also.  To find the moderators of that file, when in the
    file, type SHOW MOD, and send them mail if you wish them to post for
    you.  
    
    -Jody
    

    .18 > Somehow I will still have to tell him, one way or the other, "Honey,
    .18 > you're just not cutting it."  

    That sounds like a prescription for disaster, even though you doubtless
    didn't mean to use those exact words.  Thinking about the matter as HIS
    fault, HIS problem, is neither constructive nor fair.  It does seem
    that he is not sensitive to women's desires and needs, but also that
    one reason for this is that they have not been candidly expressed to
    him.  It's more like a mutual problem, requiring mutual change.

    I would suggest something vaguely along these lines.  "Honey, I have
    not been getting as much fulfillment out of lovemaking as I would like
    recently [as I used to?].  I've been reluctant to bring it up, because
    I was afraid you'd think I was saying that it was your fault, and that
    isn't what I mean.  I know I haven't always been very good at expressing 
    my needs to you.  Can we talk about it?"

    Some earlier replies suggested NOT having this conversation in bed.  I
    have another possible notion.  The basenote (I think) spoke of sex as
    occasionally being just fine.  How about talking after such an occasion?
    Then, you could modify the above quote by inserting after the first
    word: "that was the most wonderful experience I could ask for.  But, it
    makes me think that sometimes . . ."
    
    At best, all this wouldn't make the matter magically non-threatening
    and productive, since it sounds like the two of you conceptualize the
    whole activity somewhat differently, rather than disagreeing over a
    detail or two.  But getting off on the right foot could be important,
    even if you anticipate an extended journey.
    
    			- Bruce

    Bruce's suggestions, I feel, are dead on ...
    
    Address the issue directly!
    
    A round about dialogue will, most likely, produce round about
    conclusion! 
    
    Mixed messages are, I submit, what you *don't* need.
    
    Talk is cheap, communication is priceless.
    
    Sensitive direct communication, in *both* directions, is key.
    
    Just might be that he will share some of his insights/feelings/needs
    with you too.
    
    Just one man's input.
    
    					Charlie .....

    
    I second the advise about not talking about it in bed.
    
    My ex chose that venue to critique my technique, and I
    must say that was the last time I touched her. I simply
    lost interest, totally, in her, for good. We were married
    for two more years, during which we did not touch.
    
    Her critique was sufficiently negative that I never forgot
    the incident and it colors my attitudes about sexual prowess
    to this day.
    

    Robert, would your reaction have been as strong if she had given you
    the same critique outside of the bedroom?
    
    In other words, was it the critique or the setting that turned you off
    from her?
    
    Karen

    Re .25, apparently, his ex wasn't in "the mood" to begin with.
    
    Here's the thing I find strange about sexual incompatibility in
    couples.  If a couple have been together for awhile, and they used
    to have a (mutually) good sex life, and then it changes for the
    worse for some reason.  Then, it would seem that this would be a
    symptom of other problems.  So, if the other problems can be taken
    care of maybe they can have a good sex life again.  
    
    But, if two people have just gotten together and one, or both, of
    them is unhappy with their sex life, then maybe they're just
    incompatible.  Maybe they just have different ideas about what they
    consider to be good sex, and if that's the case, maybe they should
    just forget about trying to have a relationship that includes sex.
     
    Lorna
    
    shouldn't be together