Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    Well, Bonnie, there don't seem to be an awful lot of us around here.  
    And I don't have much personal experience to offer - yet.  Seems like 
    I'm about 6 months behind you!  So I'll be watching, listening, and
    learning.
    
    (When my doctor suggested I find out what age my mom was when she
    experienced menopause, she pulled a Ronald Regan - "I can't remember.")
    
    Karen  
                                        

Glad you started this topic.  My Mom is starting "The change" to and I would
like to know what she can expect.  

Her "start" symptoms are that her periods are getting longer, heavier, closer 
together, and more painful.  Since she finished puberty she has been as
regular as a clock (she knows what *hour* it'll start) with short, light,
relatively painless periods, so she is *not* *pleased*, to say the least. :-)

D!

My grandmother recommends herbal teas -- chamomile in particular -- for
the hot flashes.  Drink some before you go to bed.  There's another one 
that's good for cramps and heavy flow -- slippery elm, maybe?

My mother had a hysterectomy in her 30's, so I don't know when she would
have experienced the menopause naturally.  I think her mother's was at 
about 45.  But my father's mother must have been over 50 before hers 
came -- it was AFTER my mother's operation!

So I could be in for a good many years of birth control here . . .

--bonnie

	When my mother was 38 a doctor told her she was starting to
	go through the change.  At 40 she had another baby.  And if
	I remember correctly at 60 she still bled every few months.
	I don't really remember her having any "real" obvious symtoms.

	So have I started going through the change?  Hard to tell
	since I do not know of anyone closely related to me who had
	"real" symtoms.

	By "real" symtoms I mean - headaches, hot flashes, severe cramps
	and changes to flow.  The real obvious changes instead of the
	slow subtle changes over 20 years.

	My oldest sister has had problems since day one and my older
	sister seems to be reacting as I am - in other words no much
	of a change.

	Every woman is different, it depends on your family background,
	your life experiences and how you deal with stress.  It also
	depends on whether you are looking forward to aging or looking
	backward to youth.

	_peggy

		(-)
		 |
			The crone in many cultures are the women
			who have rich life experiences and who
			share what they have learned.

    See also:
    
    Womannotes-V1
    topic 488 - Menopause
    
    -Jody
    

    My Mom started menopausing around the age of 45 - 15 years ago - and
    she tells me it's not finished yet...
    
    The most unpleasant part for her was definitely the "hot flashes" which
    were very frequent until her mid-fifties. She tried several different
    medicines - I could lookup up the names, but they may not be relevant
    to somebody living in the US. The most efficient one, which she is
    still taking now, is "Premarin". However I recall that it was the first
    medicine she was prescribed, and at the time it didn't do the trick.
    
    However glad I am to be a woman, I do get slightly fed up with all this
    "bloody" rigmarole. I mean - if you are unlucky you'll
    
    	- suffer like hell when you start having your period, and this 
    	  for several years;
    	- worry to death for ages about having or not having your period,
    	  depending on whether you want chidlren or not;
    	- give birth in great pain;
    	- surrender all the above amidst hot flashes, nausea, mood swings,
    	  etc....
    
    I do realise all this isn't awfully encouraging for you Bonnie, but
    maybe you'll be lucky, and will just sail through a fairly short period
    of discomfort - after all, if you've never won at the lottery in your
    life, you probably haven't used your stock of luck yet.
    
    Best wishes,  Joana

    I think it depends on the individual.  Some women have severe symptoms
    and others never even realize that they are going through the change.
    Your gyn. person should be able to help with such things as Premarin,
    etc.  I am currently going through a "forced" menopause.  I had a 
    hysterectomy last October and now take Premarin as a replacement
    hormone.  My doctor told me that estrogen replacement is necessary to
    prevent heart problems and/or osteoporosis (sp).  I have experienced 
    few side effects.  The only noticiable one is dry skin and when I first
    started taking them, I was very emotional at times, i.e., crying at
    the drop of a hat.  It was kind of funny trying to adjust the dosage.
    I had to laugh at myself even while I was crying because I understood
    what was going on but not able to stop myself.  Kind of weird being 
    out of control like that.  Hope sharing this helps a bit.
    
    Sue
    

    Um, can I ask a dumb question?  This seems the right topic.
    
    Are "hot flashes" feeling feverish for a brief moment of time, or
    something else entirely?   (no, I dont feel them, but then again,
    I'm hopefully at least 20 years away from that sorta thing).
                                                              
    Also, does menoopause affect sex drive?  
    
    guess I'm just trying to figure out what to expect down the road.
     :)
    
    ---kim
    

    kim,
    
    Hot flashes are like briefly having a fever and then it breaks and
    you sweat... 
    
    and it affects different women in different ways, for some the
    sex drive may intensify at least periodically and for others
    it may decline, or both may happen at different times in the month.
    For other women there is no change.
    
    Bonnie

re .0 -

Just out of curiosity, why is this the "forbidden subject"? The phrase 
suggests an attitude related to questions raised in the note on crones and
also in the note on menstruation/"walking down the hall with my pocketbook." 

Could it be that we women are "damned if we do and damned if we don't"
(menstruate)? 

It's interesting that in ancient times, when menstrual blood was considered
magic (actually the substantive source of new life), women past menopause
were regarded as especially wise because they were thought to retain this 
magical blood that they shed when they were younger. Of course, we know
better than that now! ;-) 

Dorian

                                                               

    Although I haven't started yet, Bonnie, I know it's not too many
    more years.  One thing I *did* learn from my 18 year old's Parenting
    class (where it was discussed), is that, contrary to some beliefs,
    the woman will maintain about the same "nature" she had before
    menopause occurred; that is to say that if you're a cheerful type,
    you won't lose it simply because of "the change."  I was happy to
    hear this, since I had some concerns over becoming some type of
    person who was intolerable to be around.
    
    Barb

    Dorian,
    
    the title was somewhat tongue in check out of response to Bobbi Fox's
    note.
    
    Bonnie

    I'd like to be able to find out how much of the menopausal problematic
    symptoms that women experience are strictly hormonal and how much
    there is a societal-emotional component. 
    
    Would these symptoms be different if we lived in a culture that valued
    women, our bodily processes [*please* don't give me "ick" again - we've
    been through that], and our selves at ALL ages. In other words, if we
    lives in a culture that valued Crones, would the problematic symptoms
    be different?
    
    --DE_who_can't_wait
    

re  .1 -

Thanks Dawn, that's kind of what I was getting at. I've wondered the same 
thing about menstruation. Some writers (eg Esther Harding) think that many 
of women's discomforts at "that time of the month" do indeed arise from the 
fact that because society makes no attempt to recognize or validate such 
times, women have become virtually out of touch with their own bodies - 
their cyclical nature, eg - and the same may be true of menopause.

I mean, when the society's dominant view of the value of women is as sex
objects or mothers, who needs them when they're past both those stages?
What is there left for them to do? 

Now if on the other hand, venerable females were presiding in the courts,
running the country, making the laws,...things might be different... 

Dorian

    ...and if women were valued to begin with, we *would* be making the
    laws, running the courts, etc. Hmmmmm...... ;-)
    
    I know an energy healer who would probably say that most of us
    (men and women) are out of touch with our bodies, and that's why we
    have so much sickness, discomfort, etc. that's emotionally related.
    (Which he also probably would say encompasses *all* illness and
    disease - "dis-ease") 
    
    The *additional* component of women's bodies not being valued except in
    certain, narrowly-defined circumstances, probably adds a lot to the
    emotional-societal stresses that cause a lot of dis-ease and
    dysfunction. 
    
    Women are also not encouraged, either by Nature or by contrivance, to
    be as in touch (literally) with their bodies as men are. As soon a
    little boys are toilet trained, they have more physical contact with
    themselves than girls/women do. And in areas that directly impact the
    sexual and reproductive ..er...feelings and physical ..well, parts.
    
    And then we all get the mixed messages about sex/reproduction at
    puberty. 
    
    A mixed-up stew just perfect to cause problems.
    
    --DE
    

    I'm just a _tad_ bit uncomfortable with maintaining that women's
    sufferings through menstruation, pregnancy, child-birth, and menopause
    are emotional.  My discomfort stems from growing up in the 50s and 60s
    when doctors didn't take my menstrual discomfort seriously.  I was told
    it was all in my head; if I could only accept my femaleness, I wouldn't
    suffer so (and this without benefit of any psychiatric analysis); take
    this placebo and you'll feel fine.  Only trouble is I didn't feel fine. 
    I hurt!
    
    Finally, in the 70s and even more in the 80s, the medical world started
    to take this suffering seriously and began to discover "real," physical
    reasons for it - and to finally use real, physical treatments for it. 
    I use "real" in quotation marks to indicate my own belief that
    emotional illnesses can be just as debilitating as physical illnesses. 
    Unfortunately our society as a whole isn't as enlightened as I am -
    8-}!
    
    ANYWAY, just the muddy the waters further, I do agree that some of our
    physical suffering is caused by society's expectation that we will
    suffer.  I proved this to myself with my first pregnancy when a friend
    and I shared bouts of morning sickness every morning.  After about a
    week of upchucking, I decided this wasn't really much fun and it was
    probably all in my head anyway.  Once I came to this conclusion, I
    didn't have another bout of morning sickness with that or future
    pregnancies.  Not saying it will work with everyone, but it worked with
    me.  I used somewhat the same approach in preparation for child-birth,
    nursing, and subsequent menstrual episodes.  A "mind over matter"
    approach _has_ helped.
    
    Because of those experiences, I've decided to adopt a positive
    attitude toward menopause.  I'm anticipating such an attitude will help 
    me weather the "real" discomforts of the experience and avoid the
    socially-induced ones.
               
    Karen

    Re the last few, I think most of the discomfort of menstruation
    and pregnancy are caused by physical reasons, and not because of
    societal expectations.  I really resent, especially in womannotes,
    of all places, having other women tell me that severe menstrual
    cramps, and the morning sickness I had when I was pregnant, were
    all in my head.  (Any middle-aged man on the street could tell me
    that.  I don't need to read =wn='s to have enlightened feminists
    tell me that.)  I don't think I've had any physical pain or nausea
    because of the expectations of society.  First of all, as far as
    I can tell, nobody ever expected me to feel as much discomfort from
    that stuff as I have, and second, I don't give a damn how society
    expects me to feel about menstruation and pregnancy.  I would preferred
    not to have had cramps all my life, and not to have thrown-up for
    two months when I was pregnant.
    
    As far as menopause goes, my mother stopped having her period when
    she was 45.  She said one month she just didn't get her period,
    and she was terrified she was pregnant.  But, then she just never
    got her period again and she wasn't pregnant.  She claimed she never
    felt any of the symptoms people talk about, and never had any hot
    flashes.  She never even went to a doctor between the ages of 36
    (when I was born) and 74 (when she had a brain aneurysm), altho
    I realize she took quite a chance doing that.  I hope I'll be as
    lucky as her.  Personally, I've been praying for early menopause
    for the past 5 yrs.  
    
    Lorna
    

    
    A plug for an excellent book in this area - "The Wise Wound".
    Can't remember who wrote it, but it's famous and has just been
    reissued with a foreword by Margaret Drabble.
    
    It deals with our own and society's attitudes towards menstruation
    (and the ceasing of it), linking that through history to segregation
    taboos, and religion.
   
    It also offers practical help on how to use attitudes and self-valueing 
    to help with pain and other discomforts.
    Highly recommended.
    
    'gail
                                                                        
    

    
    I am 52 almost 53 years old and I haven't had a period in about
    3 1/2 years.  I have never had hot flashes, and
    there has been no change in my sex drive.  The only unusual thing
    that happened is that my period stopped for a year, I had again
    it for two months and then it stopped for ever.  I really feel sorry for
    women who suffer. I had infrequent difficult periods when I was
    a young teenager, but other than that I have never had any problems
    or discomforts.  

    RE: .16,.17
    
    Please do not think that *I* am telling you discomfort and pain are
    "all in your head". 
    
    What I *am* saying is that what is in the head (ideas, thoughts)
    affects the body, and what happens in the body affects the head. We
    cannot separate the two, although there are "theories" that say we
    can.
    
    If a child is told "you are stupid" for long enough, the child will
    seem to be stupid. (Read "Pygmalion in the Classroom"  for details.)
    
    What we are told  and what we believe affects our functioning. I was
    wishing there was a way to find out what the effect of a society that
    targets specific areas of a woman's life/functioning for
    positive/negative attention....what effect that has on these women so
    far as those functions are concerned.
    
    Telling us that our problems are "all in our minds" is only another
    way to tell us we are incapable of understanding ourselves, and places
    the God-doctor above the Mere-woman. What it *really* means is that the
    guy doesn't *know* how to solve the problem, so "blames" the woman.
    
    Nothing is "all in the mind" or "all in the body". Each affects the
    other. Every event in your life causes a change in your musculature,
    for example. Your body often remembers what your mind forgets. During
    bodywork (massage, Rolfing, etc) people often remember things they
    hadn't thought about in long periods of time. Hadn't remembered. But
    the muscle remembered, and when the theapist contacted the muscle in
    the right way, the brain remembered, too.
    
    Could it be that the abdominal musculature "remembers" the things the
    brain forgets? So that when the monthly physical changes occur, they
    are made just that little bit worse by some extra tension in those
    muscles? (What did the brain forget? Well, how about concerns about
    being pregnant? Or *not* being pregnant? Or being told you can't play 
    sports anymore because you're "all grown up now"? Or? Or? There would
    be a different reason for every woman who has the particular tension.)
    
    Does the mind affect the body? How tight are your shoulders after
    a fight with your boss?
    
    Yes, there are physical causes for discomfort. *I* think our tensions
    can make them worse, which is why, when *all* women have the same
    physical/hormonal functioning with their period/menopause, not all
    women have the same problematic symptoms. 
    
    Our tensions are not all in our minds, nor all in our bodies. We all
    have them. (I'm a massage therapist. I *know* this.) If some people
    hold their tensions in their neck and shoulders and get headaches, why
    can't some of us hold our tensions in our abdomens and have
    menstrual-related symptoms? Does everyone who gets headaches get them
    because their boss is a jerk and they are worried about work? No.
    Does everyone who has menstrual problems have them because of how we
    internalize our treatment by society? No.
    
    But I think some people do. And I wish there were a way to find out how
    much. We can't get rid of our hormones, but we can change other
    stresses in our lives.
    
    OK?
    
    --DE
    

    RE: .19
    
    Congratulations, Pat - you Wonderful Crone, you! :-)
    
    May we all have that symptom-free a time!
    
    Cheers,
    
    --DE
    

    Re .20, Yes, I understand what you're saying now.
    
    Lorna
    

    Just catching up - I was appalled when, about 5 years ago the doctor
    told me that I would probably not go into menopause until I was about
    55!  I mean really - I'm not going to have more children - can I just
    shut this off...    
    
    So I have been quite pleased to note what is apparently the onset (I'm 
    45).  I have just been skipping periods on and off for about a year - 
    no other symptoms.  While I hope that it continues to go this smoothly,
    I am prepared to put up with some discomfort to reach the next stage
    of my life.  So maybe there is something to the idea that a positive
    attitude helps (I hope).  
    
    Anyway - so far, so good,
    
       Linda