Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    Is your friend an employee? There is a restricted conf. dealing
    with ACOA. 
    
    Gail

    
    Mez,
    I'm sure you know there are AA and ACOA notesfiles which might
    be a better help for you to understand the 12 steps.  The first
    several (6-7?) steps do deal with admitting your own problem, 
    giving it over to a higher power, understanding the damage you
    caused yourself and others, and making amends.  The latter
    steps, i think, deal with moving past that into a better understanding
    of yourself, helping others, etc.  That may be the most worthwhile
    for your friend.  There are some women's AA groups which tend to
    offer a different slant on the steps, and other non-AA groups with
    steps of different sorts for women with addictive behaviors.  Much\
    has been written on why AA doesn't always work for women, as well as
    why it can...
    
    just rambling...
    
    deb
    

    Mez,

    According to the "Secular Humanist Bulletin", there are some alternative
    (secular) groups for those who do not wish to rely on a "higher power"
    As I understand it, there are groups that correspond to many of the
    standard 12-Step groups like ACOA, AL-Anon, AA, OA, NA, etc. 
    Your friend can get some information by calling 818 980-8851
    or writing to :

    Secular Sobriety Groups
    PO Box 15781
    North Hollywood CA 91615-5781


    As for "Bertha's" asking if her reaction is accurate, I can only relate
    my own feelings. My own religious beliefs (Eastern Orthodox, Greek
    franchise) emphasizes that humans have free will, that you have to take
    responsibility for what you do and don't do, and that you have the power
    inside you to do what you need to do (the old "God helps those who help
    themselves" thing). As a result, I personally can't reconcile the
    "powerless" issue since it is in direct conflict with what I believe. I
    also have a hard time *believing* that I am powerless over how my father's
    drinking effects me because there are choices that I *KNOW* that I can
    (and have) made as an adult that make his drinking not impact my life. As
    a result, I have an real hard time with the folks that tell me that,
    after I have explained the above, that the 12-step programs support all
    religions and point to literature that says it to prove it, totally
    ignoring what I have just explained, and often telling me that my
    view of the world is just plain wrong. (Of course, part of my problem
    is I am really hung up on logic; occupational hazard, I guess)

    Anyhow, the bottom line is that 12-step programs work for a lot of people,
    but not for everyone, and for those folks that it doesn't feel right
    for shouldn't be made to feel that they just aren't "working the
    program hard enough" or that there is something wrong with them. There
    are other alternatives.

    If your friend wants a sympathetic ear to talk to, tell her she is free
    to send me mail.

    Deb

Within/without - already a million miles from underneath our noses...

Marge, 

I don't have any personal experience with recovery programs, but here's what
a social worker of my acquaintance had to say about women and 12-step 
programs in general (I didn't ask her specifically about anything in
your note, just general information):

Her experience has been that no program works well for everybody, and 
that if you have reservations about the program, you're generally better
off looking for something you can feel more comfortable with.

She pointed out that any program originally designed for men [such as the
12-step program] ***MIGHT*** not meet the needs of all women.  Some programs
do, of course, but you should look carefully, since women often abuse 
substances for different reasons than men do.  There are strong social trends
that encourage women to be unwell, to depend on something outside themselves, 
and to medicate themselves.  This social worker feels that a program that 
doesn't take into account these extra pressures might leave gaps in the 
treatment, leaving the women who go through it somewhat short of healing.

My ignorant reaction to your base note was to wonder why your friend would
need a 12-step program for incest recovery and ACOA if she's not a 
substance abuser herself.  It sounded a little like the therapist was
trying to push responsibility for the actions of others onto your friend,
implying there was something wrong with her because she had been abused.
But that's probably my own ignorance showing through.

--bonnie

    Hi Mez,
    
    I'm somewhat new to 12-step stuff, but let me try.
    
    It's not really that 12-step emphasizes "denying your will."  What it
    DOES emphasize is that it's important to recognize that there are
    things in this life that are beyond our individual control.  Once we
    accept that fact, we can more easily ask for and receive help, whatever
    the particular issues are (alcoholism, abuse, sexual abuse, etc.).
    As examples of "things that are beyond my control", and the interaction
    between those things and how I am helping myself get to a healthier
    place, let me offer the following:
    
    Being abandoned and sexually abused by my parents is beyond my control. I 
    can't change it, I can't do anything about it.  It happened.  If I 
    continue to try to cope with that fact by being supercompetent and 
    excelling at everything, in an effort to get them to "finally" accept
    me and take care of me the way I should have been taken care of, I am in
    some way denying the fact that it bloody well HURTS that I was
    abandoned and abused.  As long as I deny, in whatever way, that it bloody 
    well hurts, I don't give myself the chance to deal with that hurt. But hurt
    is sneaky: it seeps out around the corners, when we least expect it,
    and it doesn't go away until we deal with it...and in trying to avoid
    dealing with it, we stay on a treadmill that just keeps us in sadness
    and depression and loneliness.  The thing is, to, we don't always know
    that we're trying to avoid dealing with the hurt.  We learned skills,
    as kids, that helped us cope with what was happening, and because the
    situations were so intense, we learn those skills REAL WELL, and we
    carry them to adulthood, where they are (more or less) dysfunctional.
    		
    On another tack, 12-step groups aren't interested in "forcing" anyone
    to believe in "god".  But it is essential, to one's own recovery, to
    recognize that there is stuff beyond your control.  The only way OUT of
    the stuff is to go THROUGH it.  Bertha will find a wide range of
    beliefs in a 12-step group: from "traditional" type Jewish or Christian
    beliefs---all the way to a belief that when you can't cope with
    something, you put it aside for a while (e.g.in a shoebox) and the
    answer will come to you because the mind will mull it over
    subconsciously.  There's room for everyone, believe me.
    
    I would also second someone else's suggestion about joining the ACOA
    file,and by the way, if Bertha is a temp, there are several temps in
    the file.  There's room for everyone.  She can look in VTX Easynotes,
    under "valuing differences", for instructions.
    
    Finally, I will be happy to send you a current list of ACOA meetings.
    
    Take care,
    Lynn
    

The following is a reply from a member of the community who wishes to remain
anonymous.
	Mez

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    		"Higher Power" = power of the group
    
    I have attended (sometimes frequently, sometimes infrequently)
    an ACOA group during the past 2 years.  At first I felt like an
    intruder, because my problems arise from a dysfunctional family,
    without alcohol involvement.  But after hearing any number of
    people speak up, beginning with a variant of "My family didn't
    have an alcohol problem, but we were definitely dysfunctional..,"
    I felt more like I belonged.
    
    As for the "Higher Power" issue, that was/is a real problem for
    me.  I don't believe in God in any traditional sense, and although
    I *wish* I could turn over my problems to a higher power, I feel
    that is just not reality.  After talking with others at the ACOA
    meeting about just this problem, I have decided that it is quite
    appropriate to declare that *my* higher power is, for the purposes
    of ACOA benefits, the supportive power of the group.  And it is
    very powerful and helpful indeed.  I guess there are several of
    us who use this approach.

Now here's a topic I can relate to.  I am an advocate of the 12-Step
programs, especially since it works for me.  Several months ago I 
entered a note asking for help.  The encouragement and support I 
received led me to the path of Working The Steps.

The Steps, in a nutshell, are as follows:

	Steps 1-3   Answers to your problems with your Higher Power

	Steps 4-7   Answers to  your problems with yourself

	Steps 8-12  Answers to learn how to get along with those
	            around you

re - .0

>>> At first blush, the 12 Step procedure seems to heavily emphasize 
>>> belief in a higher being, and denying one's will

To me, this is important to point out - "denying one's will".  For me, 
the 12-Steps put NO emphasis on DENYING my will - it just pointed out
the my will ALONE won't cut it.  I wouldn't be in the program otherwise.
To do Step One is to simply admit that I need help - that I have a problem
that I can't solve *by myself*.  To do Step Two is to believe that there is
something out there, something bigger than me, that can help me - be it
the Group Conscience, God, Buddha, whatever.  I just have to be WILLING 
to believe that there is something outside of me that can help me.  To
do Step Three is to make a conscious effort to start doing things 
differently - so I "turn my will over" in a sense.  I ask my Higher Power
for help and accept that He WILL help me from this point on.  It doesn't 
mean that God (my HP) takes it all and does it all for me - it just means 
that I'm not fooling myself into believing that I, alone, have got life,
the universe, and everything under control anymore and that something out
there is now within me, HELPING me and GUIDING me.  I sorta' had to drop
the ball completely before I could ever hope to actually pick it up again.

Doing these Steps is not a simple thing, nor is it a one time shot.  
Discovery/Recovery is a life-long journey.  One must look deep inside one
self to discover how much one is willing to change, then one must make the
effort to change it.

Change is a loss, in effect.  I used to see change as equal to failure.
Now I can see change as equal to growth.

Anyway, I'm starting to ramble.  Hope this helps.

Carol

P.S. One doesn't have to be religious in order to be spiritual.  :-)

This is an anonymous reply from my friend I mentioned in .0, "Bertha".
	Mez

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for all the input, to those who posted notes here and to those
of you who sent mail via Mez.  Your explanations helped me understand
and help me sort out my thoughts.  Between that and the last two meetings
with my new therapist I've come to the conclusion that I've already been
doing the content of some of the steps, and that the first three steps
which I found so reprehensible aren't quite so bad as the language.

I feel a lot better about that and think that at some point an ISA
program might work out for me.  

I still think that the current word usage basically sucks because it
has no temporal boundries.  While it is true in some cases that someone
who is addicted to something may always be unable to deal with the
substance, there are many other cases where the loss of control may
be temporal in nature.  I also think (given the caveat that I don't
have experiential knowledge of addiction) that a system which puts
a focus on constant need for dependence on something external in
fact gives power to the addiction by breeding fear in the addicted
person.  But, I qualify again, that my thoughts are born out of
an intellectual nature, not out of experience (which may be quite
different.)  

So, once I have had more experience, I have set the goal for myself to
publish an update version, one that lends itself to really hard problems
of a more temporal nature.  Sort of taking the word of mouth (electrons)
experience and compiling it, so that it will be more accessable to 
people like me.

Once again, thanks for all your input.  It was really worthwhile. I also
appreciate the supportd.

Bertha