Conference turris::womannotes-v2

I strongly recommend "The Dance of Anger".  A lot of what you wrote
reminded me the examples she uses in the book.

john

    Gee, this sounds exactly like my mother!
    
    Therapy helped a little for me, but mom can still push the guilt
    buttons when I'm not paying attention.  She's my mother and I love
    her, but I don't like her very much!
    
    "Unfinished Business" made for good reading when I was trying to
    sort through this issue.
    
    -maureen
    
    

My wife has been going through this since we were married, thats 23
years ago. At first it hurt her a lot. Her mother would, still does
the same things as in .0. My wife has come to realize after many
confrontations with her mother that, there,s nothing she can do to
change her mother. It still bothers her when her mother acts this
way, but she has developed a thick skin where her mother is concerned.
My wife still loves her mother, we still help her, support her,
and visit her. We have just accepted that that is the way she is.


To your friend in .0.

Your mother is not going to change and there's nothing you can
do about it. Accept it and go on with your life. Treat your
mother as you would like her to treat you. When she gives you
a hard time let it go in one ear and out the other. Its not
easy to do I know.  

Good Luck

dave

    Everyone's situation is different and it is difficult to comment
    on someone's situation with out having a full understanding of its
    history. But the information presented sounds all to familiar to
    me. I am in effect estranged from my mother for some of those reasons.
    She does not act and react to events in ways most of would consider
    normal. I can not agree with .3's advice to keep treating her as
    if nothing is wrong. Something is wrong, present her with your feelings
    on the matter. I would let her know that you demand to be treated
    and respected as an adult and if she doesn't want to do that it
    is her loss. She will probably not change, but why should you be
    burdened with the stress of trying to deal with her ways.  
    
    Gail    

    I tend to agree with Gail.  By acting as if nothing in her behavior is
    wrong it gives her implied permission to continue treating you the same
    way. I don't say to be vindictive, just very clear.  In my case its my
    Dad.  When he is being buggy, I tell him I don't like the way he is
    acting or talking towards me immediately( don't put it off, they won't
    remember it the way you do) if he tells me to leave if I don't like it,
    I do. he doesn't say that too often anymore. I love him alot, and he is
    my dad, but that doesn't give him permission or the right to abuse me.
    
    
    vivian

Re .4,.5

 I knew someone would read my message wrong.

I'm not saying react if nothing is wrong, because there is. I would
hope that she has already told her mother her feelings. What I'm
saying is that most likely her mother is not going to change, and
fighting with her is going to do nothing, but cause more stress.
I can't count how many times my wife tried to talk to her mother
about the way she acts. Her mother would just flip and act like
the injured party, making my wife feel even more guilty. 

Yes if she hasn't let her feelings known to her mother do so, but
what happens if her mother doesn't listen. She can eather keep on 
going the way it is, have nothing to do with her mother, or find
some middle ground that she can deal with. 

I really do hope your friend finds a solution acceptible to her.
that still includes contact with her mother.

dave

    Some recommendations for "Jane"-
    
       1.Join the ACOA notes file (It's in the VTX list)
       2.Join an ACOA group  Telephone 791-3431 in Worcester for meetings.
    	
    Even though you don't specifically mention alcohol in the problem,
    this is a dysfunctional family situation, and the above two
    resources deal with dysfunctional situations [of which alcoholism
    is one manifestation].  People in the ACOA notes file at ACOA meetings 
    can make suggestions about counseling help.
    
    	3.Really good reading is John Bradshaw's "Bradshaw:On the Family".
    He talks about the family dynamics in a dysfunctional family, how to
    recognize what's going on, and how to do something about it, i.e.how
    to deal with YOUR OWN behavior, because that's all you can really
    control.
    
    On the issue of whether or not to confront mom for her lousy behavior,
    just in general terms: mature, adult people tell each other when
    something is bothering them.  (BTW, that statement is NOT an indictment
    of Jane's difficulty at present in dealing directly with the problem. I
    know it's hard, and it hurts, and it hurts so much we try not to feel
    the hurt and we ignore the hurtful incidents and act as if nothing has
    happened to make us feel lousy...I've been there too.)
    
    Jane will inevitably deal with this issue within the context of dealing
    with making Jane a healthier, happier person. Good luck, and keep us
    updated...we care.
    
    Lynn
    
    
    

    If "Family" is the pillars of society... I feel sorry for society! and
    sorry for those unfortunate who don't know what a good, close family is
    all about!

    It is interesting, when you go through this you think you are the only
    one, but it seems there are many of us in this situation.  I agree with
    Dave she can confront her mother but from the description in the first
    note I don't think it will be very successful (I think she has tried to
    some degree).
    
    My mother is 80 years old which made my situation even harder (at that
    age they are definitely not going to change).  I went to a therapist
    for awhile and it did help (it is amazing how when a paid professional
    tells you what you already know, it sinks in).
    
    I now draw definite lines and it helps so much, for instance Xmas 1988
    was a horror show with my mother, this year she made a crack about my
    brother as we were leaving her apartment and I stopped and told her all
    I wanted for Xmas was a quiet, pleasant one with no fighting, IN A
    POSITIVE VOICE (that's the key).  Well it worked.  
    
    I guess the main thing is to assure your friend she is not alone and do
    encourage her to get help, my counselor is located on Rt 20 in Marlboro
    if that is not to far send me a note and I will give you the name and
    number.
    
    But please encourage her to get help I let my situation go on to long.
    
    Take care Pat
    

    I liked Nancy Friday's My _Mother My Self_.  It's good for dealing
    with a lot of the culturally conditioned consequences of sexism
    that warp even the healthiest of mother-daughter relations.  It's
    not specifically about dysfunctional families, however, so it
    might not be as useful for your friend.  It helped me because
    although there were problems between me and my mother, we're both
    basically healthy people and the family was functional.
    
    Like .8, I find it terribly sad that there are so many warped,
    dysfunctional families out there, and so many injured children
    huddled inside apparently confident grownups. . . I wonder
    sometimes if this is why there seems to be such nostalgia for the
    stereotypical "Father knows Best" family that never existed -- all
    the scarred lives longing for what they should have had and
    didn't.  As though by legislating that teenagers have to consult
    their parents about an abortion, no matter how long a parent has
    been absent (as Minnesota did), they could force the family to
    heal itself and become functional again.
    
    --bonnie

    According to a book I read - 80% of all families are dysfunctional in
    some way either with alcohol/drugs or just plan old dysfunctional.
    
    That is really scary.....I have to admit my family is dysfunctional
    because of alcohol.  There are lots of alcoholics in my family 
    background.  My mother also acts like 0.'s....I tell her upfront
    what the problem is and treat her like an adult and when she doesn't 
    respond the same way she doesn't hear from me.  That drives her nuts
    so for the past few years she has been good....to talk to...and doesn't
    give me a hard time anymore cuz she knows I won't bother with her and
    she hates that!
    
    Definitely 0.'s friend needs consuling  because you find out that
    your not the only one suffering from this and also why your mother (or
    father) acts they way they do and how to acknowledge this.
    
    Good luck,
    
    --bs