Conference turris::womannotes-v2

>.0>(Sex, BTW, is established in the second trimester of fetus-hood.)  What causes
>.0>this gender identification to happen?  (My HuMSex book says that psychs and
>.0>docs alike are confused about this.)

>	I think the medical community agrees that the child's sex is
>    determined by an androgen (is that the right hormone?) rush from the
>    mother.  ???

You misread what I said.  I wanted to know how *gender* identification happens
and that the "professionals" are confused about it.  How *sex* is assigned
is a lot better understood.

BTW, your *sex* is strictly a function of your chromosomes, and is determined
at conception.  What I meant by the "second trimester" comment was that 
sexual characteristics develop irrevocably during that time, and yes, 
androgen from the mother plays a big part in it.  (It's not simple but it's
fairly well understood by people who should know.  I've always been horrible
at that kind of stuff...one of the reasons I didn't go into medicine.)

I am very interested in this gene you are talking about.  What exactly
do you mean by "gender identity crisis?"  What does the gene do?  Where 
can I read about it?

Are you suggesting that the root of gender identity is carried on a gene?

D!

    in re> .1  and
    
    .2 > How *sex* is assigned is a lot better understood.
    
    Not really. The prevaling scientific understanding of the chromosomal
    basis of sex assignment was recently overturned, or so it was reported
    (about 2 weeks ago).  As I haven't yet read an account I would trust, I
    won't try for details here. But the jist was that evidence invalidated
    the old theory, but no replacement had yet emerged.
    
    	- Bruce
    

>	The gene controls whether or not the human tissue in the genitalia
>    will form external testicles and a penis, or internal ovaries and a
>    clitoris.

But that does explain why that would lead a perfectly *normal* (bioloically)
male to feel like a female inside.  Any explanation of this gene does this?

>.2>Are you suggesting that the root of gender identity is carried on a gene?

>	Yes.  Assuming what's been found to date isn't later refuted.

I disagree.  There was the case of identical male twins...one of the twins lost
his penis due to a "circumcision accident" and the parents decided to raise the
child as female.  And the child developed a female gender identity.

There are other, more common cases, where children are raised with a gender
that doesn't match the sex, for a lot of varied conditions, not all of which
can be the result of this gene (like insufficient or excess androgen during
pregnancy) and those children *usually* adopt the assigned gender as their
gender identity without problems.  

But I wasn't really looking for medical discussion.  I think it's clear that
there is more the *feeling like a woman* than having a clitoris, or having
been dressed in pink as a child.  But I'm not sure what, and I was looking for
comments.

D!

    I am not sure of the exactness of the statement I am about to make,
    but I think the idenity of a person is more sociological than anything
    else, namely, for the same reasons D! stated in her response just
    previous.  A lot of what we think we are is dicated by society's
    (and it seems that what makes a woman a woman or a man a man at
    least in sociological sense is pretty much worldwide) set "rules".
    By this I mean, society as a whole bit general thing (so much for
    scientific terms) has as a "rule" what is feminine behavior, and
    what is masculine behavior. Therefore, when a girl behaves like
    a boy, she is often called a tomboy, meaning that she is demonstrating
    what society perceives as masculine behavior.  
    Therefore, much of what see ourselves to be is what roles we have
    been taught.  A woman might feel womanly because she "fits" into
    the gender role she believes is that of woman.  This is not one
    of my better worded arguements, but if I get the point across
    correctly, I think it has merit.                  
                  
    
    *note*  Not to go round and round about what is right or wrong for
    women to act like here--I am simply stating what is perceived as
    masculine or feminine traits.  Playing sandlot baseball is a masculine
    trait in the example I am trying to use, but I am not arguing whether
    or not playing sandlot baseball is something girls can or cannot
    do. *end of note*
    
    But, even if we subscribe to saying that society more or less has
    dictated what gender roles we are to play, and that these probably
    have much to do with determining how we feel we fit into a specific
    gender role, that does not explain how some people, brought up in
    the "appropriate" gender role, still don't feel they match their
    sex.  ::struggle to remember psychology class here::  Is it not
    true that transsexuals are not men who have been brought up as women
    or vice versa (at least in most cases), but people who have been
    brought up according to their genitalia (so to speak), but *still*
    feel out of place?   In that case, the gender roles dicated by society
    do NOT fit, and do NOT explain what makes them feel like their proper
    gender.  I have no idea personally why this might be.  Perhaps in
    addition to genes and hormones, and society, there is an additional
    factor that dictates what a person feels like?  Some sort of
    biochemical produced by the body, which in the case of transexuals,
    must be a mismatch to the sex dicated by the genes?
    
    A very intriguing thing to consider, and something I certainly don't
    have that decisive answer for.  
    
    ---kim

    In re: .6
    
    I'm sorry, but I feel compelled to jump on a single statement in what
    Kim said: "society more or less has dictated what gender roles we are
    to play."  Not true. We are free agents. "Society" has made some
    suggestions, perhaps, but we can pick and choose.  My mother had a Ph.D
    long before I was born; she chose that, and she chose one kind of a
    parenting role with young kids, another with older kids. Many of her
    _problems_ may have come from "society", but not her _choices_. Of
    course, it's not quite that simple; I don't think my _father_ felt he
    had choices in the opposite direction. But I myself have felt I've had
    choices, more so with each passing year.
    
    That's not to say that "society" (i.e. individual friends and
    acquaintances; you don't have to attend to the mass media for this)
    doesn't still signal me I should be "worried" when my boy likes pink
    and purple, or hairbands, or dolls, or whatever. But I have found the
    contrary, as I have - I hope its clear - with "tomboys"; it is without
    predictive value . I have also known and observed quite a close
    family in which 2 of 4 daughters have recently "come out."  I don't
    think anyone could have figured it out in advance.

    Since what constitutes what is male or female is not a worldwide
    standard we can say that culture and society are not the determining
    factor. They just give us the reasons for feeling guilty when we
    don't "fit". They also attempt to force conformity. The fact that
    homosexuals and transexuals exit are de facto proof that social
    conditioning has a limited affect.

    I've been thinking about this and I can't say what makes me a woman
    rather than a man other than biology. I wear pants most of the time
    and I was a tomboy. I grew up riding horses and dressing like a boy
    (in my free time, dresses were mandatory at school and for social
    events) yet my reactions to men aren't much different than women who
    weren't tomboys and wore dresses by choice.

    I can't really say that attraction to men is the key as I know
    lesbians who I also see and relate to as women.

    Far out theory - misplaced souls returning to earth that got placed
    in the wrong bodies by accident. liesl

    There is some discussion of transsexuality at 
    
    topic 578 - Christine Jorganson RIP
    
    -Jody
    

    re .7
    
    I understand your point, but still maintain that yes, society (for
    lack of a better or perhaps more sociological correct word) has
    a VERY, very large hand in what the gender roles are.  Whether or
    not we decide to "fit" in them or not is up to us--therefore, yes,
    we are free agents, but that doesn't change the sociological
    establishment of gender roles.  But, I kinda think that's a different
    note/topic.
    
    Musing about the question asked "What makes a woman feel like a
    woman..?" and so forth, I happened upon this thought.
    
    I don't think I really *feel* like a woman--I just *feel*.  Ie,
    I don't feel particulary womanly, but I do know I *am* a woman.
    I can feel particulary feminine, but that's usually to what I am
    doing at the moment--decked out in frills or whatever.  It's difficult
    to get the impression across, but I don't think I have this experience
    of feeling in the sense that I could say, "Yes, I feel like a woman."
    
    Rather, I feel like me.  A person.  An entity.  What I feel is due
    to what I am experiencing at the moment.  When I am harrassed, or
    put down upon, I don't feel like a woman being put down upon, I
    feel like I am being put down.  Period.  Is that uncommon?  Would
    a man FEEL like a man, or just like a person who knows he is a man?
    Wouldn't the feeling of being particularly manly, or macho, or rugged
    or whatever depend on his mindset at the moment?  
    
    Of course, that really kinda complicates the WHY to the question
    on what transsexuals feel.
    
    ---kim

    I oversimplify my experience.  I'm a woman, so therefore what I
    feel must be what it means to feel like a woman.
    
    I've never been a person who wasn't a woman.  "Person" includes
    womanliness, it isn't a separate category.  So to me, there isn't
    any separation between what a woman feels and what I feel.
    
    I don't know if this makes me well integrated with my sexuality,
    or just unobservant.
    
    --bonnie

It is interesting.  Maybe some people establish a stronger gender *identity*
than others.  In regards to Kim's comment on not "feeling like a woman", and
in particular to Ann Broomheads comment in the transexual note that Jody
pointed to (forget which note) in which she said of her childhood "I never
said 'I am a little girl', I only said 'I am Ann'" - perhaps some people
internalize their gender as a bigger part of their personhood than any other.

I for one am very much a woman.  My womanhood is very much a part of me.
I don't remember actually saying 'I am a little girl', but being a girl was
very fundamental to me.  Sure, so was 'I am Diana'.  But 'Diana' would not
be 'Diana' is she were not female.  If *I* woke up in a man's body, I would
guess that it would *never* feel right.  I don't know if it would make me
happy or unhappy (I would suspect the latter) but I think I would always feel
that my body was just a front, and that it didn't accurately reflect the me
inside.

Maybe it goes further...maybe some people's bodies are more a part of
their inner self than others.  My own personality in inextricably linked
with my appearence, how my body feels around me (that is, how it feels 
to wear it), how it feels touching it, etc.  Changing my body changes *me*.
Maybe not so much for othes.

Could it be that there are a lot *more* people who feel female in a man's
body, or vice versa, but the feeling isn't as strong, because whatever
gender they are, it is less of *them* than of other people?

Arg, I don't think I am making any sense here.  Oh well, this is one of those
topics that is very hard to discuss given the limitations of language.

D!

    I am posting this for a noter who wishes to remain anonymous.  If you
    would like to respond to this person via mail, please send it to me and
    I will forward it to them.
    
    -Jody
    
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    First off, trying to understand what makes a woman a woman by
    studying gender conflicted persons is studying fire after the flame
    went out.  Some of the questions asked are specific to each individual
    and no general rules abound.  In my comments assume I am speaking for
    myself as male to female transsexual.  The reverse case also occurs.

    Transsexualism is a thing, it is also a process.  The process is
    one of experimentation to see what fits and what doesn't.  Inside
    the process changes occur, some physical, some emotional.  So through
    all of the testing the question is repeated, does this aspect of the
    female role fit.  There is no failure, this is not pass/fail.  It's
    about finding your own identity after the "assigned" ones don't fit.
    
    The concept of transsexual is baffling even to those in the middle
    like me.  The experts argue as to causes but that doesn't help me at
    all.  We all have a body we either identify with it or we don't
    and the variation around that alone is wild.  How many readers wish
    they were fatter, taller, shorter, thinner, darker, more hair, I 
    could go on.  The idea being everyone has an internal physical identity,
    how they see themselves in their minds eye, adverse to what the mirror
    presents.  For those who open their eyes and see the right (or close)
    thing in the mirror life is good, and if you don't not so good. 
    Gender, one part of psycological identity is also one of those variables, 
    how it is established is a different discussion from what it is.  I cannot
    tell how I come to be of a different gender than my sex, only that I am.
    So goes the nature part of the argument.
    
    One asks what does it feel like to be a woman?  I don't know, it seems
    so familiar.  I ask what's it like to be a man, the question doesn't
    seem familiar to the owner of this male body!  Some of it is values,
    some of it is body sense, it may be also how I internally want to fit
    into society.  Each is an element.  I have always been feminine
    gendered, but I'm fully inculturated in the role of a man.  That's
    the nurture part of the argument.  What make's the nurture part of the
    argument interesting is anyone can learn to behave and look the
    opposite sexual role but very few have the internal flexibility to be
    able to eliminate their internal desire to be what they really are. I
    grew up in the male role, but it didn't fit.  It doesn't say I don't
    have some aspect of personality that is masculine only that despite
    upbringing and social pressure the personality is skewed toward
    feminine. 
	    
    The bottom line is when I close my eyes I see a woman, prettier than 
    I, but none the less attainable.


    Sorry for the one on one comments.

    RE: .0

	The what if you woke up in the body of the other sex question,
	to me it's not a question, it's a fact of my life.  How I got
	there is a good question.  What would it be like to get back
	to "my" body would be better?  It's a fun question to entertain
	as if it did happen think of all the things that would be
	different both in the physiological sense and social sense.


    RE:955.7

	We are free agents, hence sex change operations do occur as proof.
	However, My entering this anon does show you that I as others do
	recognize that there is considerable social pressure to "conform".
	Life is very hard for those that don't.  You become part of every
	social superstition around sex.  I regard transsexual as the 
	between state from male to female.  After that I will be female
	and pursue the life I dreamed of but couldn't quite attain from
	the role I was in.

	I might add, you grow up with this so you take in the "training"
	as a kid of what's correct or acceptable for your role.  At some
	point you become self aware of what and who you are.  It's then
	where everything either comes together or starts becomming a
	crisis because it doesn't syncronize.

    RE: .8
	
	Liesl, male and female are easy to determine most of the time.

	Masculine or feminine are definitely culture based.

    Re: .11

	Integrated is the norm, that you can admit that Bonnie proves
	you are observant.

    Re: .12

	Yes Ann B. did make the connection.  Like I said who do I see in
	my minds eye...  The other part is my body is very much part of
	me except for certain specific items that is.  ;*)

	Yes, I believe there are a lot more males that feel a strong tug
	from their feminine sides than will ever admit.  Being feminine
	from my perspective makes feeling vulnerable more a part of my
	life than for men.

    A-

	Long ago (i.e. in college days!), I seem to remember reading
	a sci-fi story set in 2381 or some such year, and the essence
	of the story was one's ability to transform their body into
	any form they wished, and back again. Well, technology continues,
	and this may be possible at some point in the future. 
	Now *there's* food for thought...

	It's 2xxx (pick your year). You can be anybody you want, for a day,
	a month, a year...  What do you feel like being today? After
	spending a day, perhaps, in a body of opposite gender, would 
	you define yourself differently? Would gender even matter as
	much?  Who would jump at such an opportunity, and who would
	declare it heresy on one's body?

	Anyway, I thought it was rather thought-provoking..

	KC

    re: .14
    
    I think I'd want to be a hermaphrodite.  Have it all ways when you
    can't make up your mind . . . 
    
    --bonnie

The following was mail that was sent to me in response to my base note
in this topic.  The woman who sent it to me said that I could post it
if I thought it was good (which I do) as long as I removed her name...

> Interested in comments about why people feel they are the gender they are.
> *Especially* interested in hearing from any transexuals.

    My SO is a transsexual.  Will that do?

> What makes a woman a woman?

    See a fascinating (to me) book

        Kessler, S., and McKenna, W. _Gender:_an_
        _Ethnomethodological_Approach_. New York: Wiley, 1978. 

    The authors are not discussing transsexualism; they are
    discussing "what is gender" and "how do we know what gender a
    person is."  They do not address the question of "how do I
    know what gender I am."  I was able to order this book in
    softcover from my bookstore; I don't know whether it would be
    available in a library. 

    Their contention is primarily that gender is a culturally
    determined thing, not biological (although it is affected by
    biology).  They use as support for this biological anomalies,
    some of which you mentioned:  women who are born with female
    genitals and reproductive system but XY chromosomes, men born
    with male genitals and reproductive system but XX
    chromosomes, people who are genetic mosaics, and so forth.
    They also mention cultures which *may* have had more than two
    genders, although the existing evidence is extremely unclear.
    There's lots more to it...they distinguish between the
    concepts of "gender identity" and "role identity" and
    "masculine vs. feminine" and so forth.  For example, I have
    (presumably) a female gender identity, a more or less female
    role in society, and am not particularly feminine.  Even if I
    do wear skirts to work.  :)

> There was a discussion in a mailing list I am on recently about transsexualism.
> One woman-in-a-man's-body (a pre-op transexual) said that she had *always*
> felt like a girl/woman since as long as she could remember (age 4, I think

    Some transsexuals seem to feel like another gender from the
    time they are quite young.  Others say they desparately
    *wished* they had been born another gender, but don't say
    they always felt like another gender...I don't know whether
    that means they aren't "true" transsexuals or simply that the
    feelings are not quite as intense.

> she said.)  Other people asked her what she meant - did she have "feminine
> mannerisms"?  Did she like to play with dolls more than trucks?  Did she
> want to have a baby?  Did she feel more attracted to men than to women?
> And if it was one of those reasons, they why didn't she just feel like a
> feminine man, or a homosexual man, or simply a different man?  What was it
> that made her so certain that she was truly a *woman*, and by some perverse
> fluke of nature ended up with a man's body?

    Most of the transsexuals I know who say "I always felt like
    <mumble>" can't say what they mean.  Our culture doesn't give
    us words for that.  I mean, if *I* say, "I remember feeling
    like a girl from the time I was quite young" most people feel
    like I've said something stupid or ridiculously obvious--and
    of course no one asks what I mean! After all, I'm obviously a
    woman, so why shouldn't I have felt like one? 

    One of the things that is very confusing for some
    transsexuals is distinguishing between role preference,
    sexual orientation, gender identity, etc.  For example, my SO
    is quite strongly oriented towards women.  For many years she
    assumed that she must not be a transsexual because of her
    orientation; only in the last several years has she realized
    that it is possible to be a woman as well as loving women.  I
    know male-to-female transsexuals who are lesbians, and I know
    of at least one female-to-male transsexual who is a gay man. 

    Oh...I've used "she" for my SO for the sake of convenience.
    We don't have a gender-neutral pronoun..."it" simply doesn't
    work, although "they" sometimes works in colloquial speech.
    At any rate, she presents as male at work (and to our parents
    and siblings, who know her problem), and as female with
    friends and just about all the time we're out in public.  To
    quote her:  "If I've got a gender identity, it's not male.
    But I don't know whether it's female."  So she prefers
    feminine pronouns as being less "wrong," although she's not
    adamant about it.  If our culture had a place and a role for
    "gender-neutral" or "gender-ambiguous" or "androgynous"
    people I'm pretty sure she'd be in it.

    I was surprised at the diversity I found among people with
    gender identity disorders.  In our local support group, we
    have people making the transition from male to female, people
    making the transition from female to male, and at least one
    (my SO) who may be making a transition to a gender other than
    male or female.  We've had people come, visit with some of
    us, get some information from our library, and decide (or
    realize) that they are not transsexuals and the road of sex
    reassignment is not one they want/need to walk.  We've got
    three couples who thought they were straight couples, and are
    dealing with the problems of trying to continue a
    relationship across a change of this magnitude.  We've got a
    Southern Baptist and we've got a witch.  We've got
    heterosexuals (with respect to their gender identity), we've
    got bisexuals, and we've got lesbians (with respect to their
    gender identity). We've got people with money and people
    without.  (Especially the latter -- quite often people who
    make this transition get fired.)  We've got people who want
    or have a traditional "white picket fence" lifestyle as well
    as a self-declared hippie bum.  We've got computer
    programmers, farmers, landlords, ex-military people,
    insurance salespeople, accountants, artists, architects,
    beauticians, and I know of a Roman Catholic priest and an
    Episcopalian nun. We've got a teenager (19) and we've got
    someone over sixty. 

    By the way, although our group is primarily male-to-female,
    there is a plenty of evidence that suggests that about as
    many female-to-male candidates present (seek therapy or other
    help in dealing with the gender identity disorder).  For
    whatever reason, people making that transition seem to be
    much less visible.  Also, although it is possible that about
    as many may make the social transition, apparently fewer seek
    reassignment surgery. 

> So what is it?  To the women out there - is there something in *you*, that
> makes you *feel* like a woman, something that has nothing to do with
> biology or social conditioning?  ...
> ...What if tomorrow morning you found yourself in the body
> of the opposite sex?  Could you adjust, would you eventually think of yourself
> as the new sex, or would you always feel out of place?

    If it were easy and fast to change sex, and possible to do it
    more than once (current surgical techniques make it *quite*
    difficult to "change back") I'm sure I would like to "try
    out" what it's like to have sex as a man.  But I *like* being
    a woman, I like my body, and I doubt I could or would adjust
    to permanently wearing a man's body.

    There is at least one person who through hospital bungling
    or whatnot received sex change surgery when scheduled for
    some other surgery.  I don't think he "adjusted" particularly
    well.

> My Human Sexuality book says that "gender identity", the *knowing* and *feeling*
> that you are one sex or the other, is established in the first 2 to 3 years 
> of life.  Transexuals establish the "wrong" gender identity this early.
> (Sex, BTW, is established in the second trimester of fetus-hood.)  What causes
> this gender identification to happen?  (My HuMSex book says that psychs and
> docs alike are confused about this.)

    Actually, I haven't the faintest clue whether I have a gender
    identity.  I've tried to imagine what gender I am apart from
    my body and I just can't do it.  I think the closest I can
    get to understanding the pain felt by people with a gender
    identity disorder is to imagine that I were forced to present
    to the world as a man, to pretend to sales clerks, doctors,
    co-workers, etc. that I was "really" a man while still
    keeping my own body.  I think I'd be psychotic in short
    order.

> ...The people usually
> identify as the gender to which they were "assigned" (that is, that their
> parents decided they would raise them as - sometimes involving surgical
> modification.)  So it appears there is more to ones gender identity than
> biology?  Is it just how we are raised?  Why does it sometimes work and 
> sometimes fail?

    You're right that the thing that most strongly correlates
    with gender identity is (as one would suspect) the gender one
    is assigned at birth and raised as.  No one knows why it
    doesn't "take" with some people.  No clue.


    I'd better quit writing before I run out of disk space. ;)
    Another couple of books (I don't have complete references)
    are _The_Uninvited_Dilemma_ by Kim Elizabeth Stuart, and _In_
    _Search_of_Eve_ by <mumble> Bolin.  The first is kind of an
    overview, sometimes chaotic, and available for about $10.
    The second one is a look at the male-to-female transition
    from an anthropological point of view.  I think you mentioned
    that you had done some reading in the area, so you may have
    seen these already.  And if you've read something you thought
    was good, please let me know:  I'm the librarian for our
    local support group!