Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    I kiss my husband, also a DECie, in front of my building. While I
    wouldn't be adverse to a quick peck in the office area, there is the
    question of professionalism to be considered.
    
    Marge

    My husband and I both work in the same building, same floor, same group.
    We don't embrace or kiss on the property, though we will occasionally
    hold hands in the parking lot.  I don't think there's any rule about
    it.  It's merely a matter of personal preference.  In my particular
    case, I prefer to keep a professional demeanor at work, but that's
    just my preference.  Talk to your fiance and see how she feels about
    it.  If you're both comfortable with it, I doubt anyone will care.
    
    If she is uneasy with it though, I'd respect her wishes.  She needs
    to feel comfortable in her place of work.  After all, you have the
    rest of your life for that stuff.  :-)
    
    Karen.

    
    in our group we kiss all the time.
    

If my sweetie came to work and I didn't give her a big hug and kiss people
around here would think I was ill.

What's this about "professionalism"? I don't understand. I meet my deadlines, I
deliver my code, I help out the other people in the office. I'm a professional.
How does showing affection in public reflect on my profession or my professional
abilities?

Feeling personally uncomfortable about showing affection in public I can
understand, and I guess that in SOME professions showing affection in public
might be unprofessional. (hmm... what profession would that be? Hooker? or is
that "conflict of interest"?) However, I'm a software engineer. What's
"unprofessional" in some professions is practically REQUIRED in a software
engineer, and vice versa. I guess it could be a regional/site/group thing as
well. I know our group is much (MUCH) less formal that even other groups around
here.

Bottom line:	chacun � son go�t

	-- Charles

    I kiss my sweetie whenever and wherever we meet simply because I
    can't wait to get next to his face.  No slobbering or anything
    to alienate onlookers, just a brief and genuine warm greeting.  My 
    mother works at Dec too and I greet her with a kiss even though we 
    laugh about how it could be misconstrued!  Think about this - would
    you feel differently about seeing, (or giving or getting), a
    non-romantic kiss?  Then you can take the sleazy connotations out of 
    seeing lovers kiss because interpretation is in the mind of the observer.
    
    My old roommate, in falling in love for the first time, felt awkward
    saying "I love you" on the phone.  Dec cubes aren't the most private.
    But then I told her how I used to hear my old boss on the phone
    with his daughter and they always ended with "I love you".  Isn't
    that just plain nice in this day of loneliness and broken families
    and divorce and nastiness?  I smile when I hear someone around me
    closing their conversation with "I love you".  It doesn't always mean 
    they're involved in some steamy, illicit, tacky affair and neither
    does a smile and a brief kiss.  Genuine love is always in good taste.
    I save the bun squeezes for when we get in the car.  ;-)  ;-)

    I think that East coast "norms" are different from West coast "norms",
    where the West is considerably more laid back, like totally, than here
    in the conservative East.

    My husband and I work in the same building. Sometimes I go into his
    office and give him a quick kiss on the top of his head while he
    is working. We also will sometimes hold hands or fingers briefly
    while walking in the corridors. Much more than that would seem
    awkward and out of place.
    
    Bonnie

    re .3, Joe, you mean the people in your group kiss *each other*
    all the time??   That sounds like quite a group you've got there!
    :-)  Friendlier than my group.  (not that I really *want* to kiss
    anybody in my group)
    
    I don't see anything wrong with a quick hug and a kiss at work.
     As Sandy said, it doesn't always have to be couples, it could just
    be friends.  There's a difference between just a kiss and making
    out for 10 minutes. :-)  I could understand why that might be
    considered unprofessional by some, but I'm sure even *that* has
    been done at DEC.  
    
    Lorna
    

    >>I am engaged to a woman who also works at Dec. When we meet in
    >>work is it alright to kiss and inbrace each other??
    
    >>Is there a policy that forbids this???
    
    To my knowledge, there is no policy regarding kissing or embracing
    one's spouse or fiance.  However, as the dicussions have pointed out
    thus far, there are differences in 'custom' between east/west coast
    office protocol, and there are differences if you sit in manufacturing,
    engineering or the field.
    
    If your fiance is uncomfortable with public displays of affection at
    the office, it might be a good idea to just talk about it and find out
    why she feels this way.  Maybe she is in management and is concerned
    that others might see this and not know that you are her fiance, etc.
    Non-consensual kissing or touching of other employees can create big
    problems for the company (how do you spell sexual harrassment...) and
    the DEC philosophy that employees conduct themselves in a professional
    manner can be interpreted in many different ways.
    
    People do see things and make assumptions, rightly or wrongly.  Because
    of this, I can understand her caution (or anyone else's for that
    matter) about public display of affection in the office.
    
    Laura
    
    

    >>There's a difference between just a kiss and 
    >>making out for 10 minutes. :-)  
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^        
    >>but I'm sure even *that* has
    >>been done at DEC.
    
    And isn't that just the reason why KO insists that all office doors
    have those little strips of window in them... ;-)
    

    
    re:.8
    yes indeedy! i don't kiss ed and kurt and carey as often as the
    womenfolk in the group, however...
    

    My old boss used to hang his coat over that little strip of window.
    Hmmmm!

    Whether inside DEC, or outside DEC, I like it when people show signs
    of affection to those they love or care about.  Its always moderate,
    and genuine, so I don't think it gets in the way of what people
    might think.  I also agree that LOVE is what it is, and you should
    feel free to express it where-ever you are!!  It restores my faith
    that someday I will be able to share the hugs and kisses with someone
    that I love!!
    
    

 I personally don't see anything wrong with a quick kiss and hug, as long as it
is done without unduly attracting attention. I agree that there's a difference
between a quick peck and "sucking face." 

re: windows on offices

 Methinks this is done to make it harder for management types to sleep in
their offices. :-)

 The Doctah

    I work 3rd and my wife works 1st ... you better believe I get quick
    peck before I have to go home to that lonely bed !  I think it's
    great when 2 people can show affection in a crowd.  I wouldn't suggest
    molesting your spouse (or anyone elses spouse ..) in a hallway,
    but I think public displays of affection are great !  You may find,
    however, that some people will frown on it, mainly because such
    a thing is taboo in their personal lives .... jealousy runs rampant
    at DEC, regardless of the site ....
    
    
    
    				Jerry

    
    I think that kissing at work can cause problems for women.  I'm new to
    Digital, but at my old company, women got "reputations" very easily. 
    For instance, let's say that 2 people were not married but dating. 
    They regularly kissed in the parking lot and her boss saw her.  Then
    they broke up.  She started dating someone else from Digital.  They
    regularly kissed in the parking lot and her boss saw her.  Hmm.  Now
    what would her boss think?  'This woman sure kisses alot of men.' 
    Would her boss then become uncomfortable sending her on business trips? 
    Perhaps he would think that she'd kiss other people.  Also, she would
    never be sent on a business trip with the man she was dating.  Kissing,
    even just a peck, is not at all appropriate in a trade show booth. 
    This may sound picky but we're still in a world full of 'old-boy'
    networks.  Usually, these types of men are in management and thus
    control our careers.
    In addition, a woman, in my opinion, should be very careful to be
    almost asexual at work.  This way she will never be thought of in a
    sexual manner and is less likely to be harrassed.  Being seen kissing
    could start someone's mind off in inappropriate directions.
    FYI -
    in the last company that I worked for a woman and a man were friends. 
    (No kissing or anything.)  Someone suspected that these people, both
    married, were having an affair.  (They weren't.)  Human resources went
    to the WOMAN's boss and complained about HER behavior.  (They sat
    together in the cafeteria.)  No one went to the man's boss.  I'd call
    that proof-positive that 'old-boy' networks still exist.
    
    Rachael
    

    I can agree with -1 concerning peer perceptions - before we were
    married, actually before we were divorced from our respective ex's,
    we'd take breaks together, but no phyisical displays of affection.
    This site, being a soap opera atmosphere, produced a "rumor" that
    we were plotting to get divorces and get together.  People love
    to talk and gossip, and you can't fight it - heaven knows we tried.
    If 2 DECsters were dating, and not mariied/living together, I wouldn't
    suggest kissing or hand-holding for the reasons mentioned in -1.
    Incorrect perceptiions can be very hard to erase, and the harder
    one tries to clear the air, the more it looks like a cover-up.
    
    Remember though, all work and no play makes Jack grouchy and he
    shoots up his local McDonalds !      8^)
    
    
    
    				Jerry

    In the "Real World" (business outside of Digital), public displays
    of  affection often do real harm to the woman's career (but not to
    the  man's  career, of course). Ann Lander's column in yesterday's
    Boston  Globe  contains  a  letter  on this (and a poor reply that
    ignores  the  sexism.)  You  could  also  look at what happened at
    Bendix(?)  with  Agee and Cunningham (I forget their first names).
    Where  they eventually got married, but not before Cunningham (the
    woman) was  forced to leave the company.

--David

    on those rare occasions when i am able to visit her facility, i kiss
    and hug my wife when i arrive and when i leave.  we also hold hands in
    the hall.  the same when she comes here.
    
    in fact, WHENEVER we come together, or part, we greet one another this
    way.  and we never part without saying "i love you", even on the phone.
    
    it's not a rut, but it expresses how we feel about each other.  
    
    tony

    
    Re .16
    
    "Women should take great care to be almost asexual at work...."
    
    Hmmmm. Don't think I could do that, even if I agreed with it - and
    I'm damned if I'll consciously "switch off" part of myself at work.
    I wouldn't over-emphasis it either - women have as much right as
    men to just "let it be" in the office.
    
    Maybe my opinion is fostered by being a long time in DEC where,
    it seems, things are a little more open (at least for discussion!)
    than in the "outside world"......
    
    Even having been in a situation where a rumour was out about myself
    and a married man in the office having an affair (we weren't), and
    my boss approached *me* about it and not him.....I still won't
    consciously alter my behaviour and my sense of self in the office
    beyond normal "professionalism".
    
    'gail
    

    Re .16, that's just too boring a way to live for me.
    
    Lorna
    

    I've had better luck simply acknowledging my whole personhood,
    including my female sexuality, and deciding which aspects of that
    person find expression in the office at various times.  I'm a
    woman and I have no desire to hide or deny the fact.  I accept it,
    and the people around me seem to do likewise to the degree I'm
    comfortable with myself.  It's not appropriate for either a man or
    a woman to dress seductively at the office, so I don't dress
    seductively.  Nor do I try to dress asexually.  The attempts to
    completely suppress one's gender can backfire by calling attention
    to the suppression.  
    
    Neil and I kiss when we meet, occasionally hold hands when we're
    walking, and meet for lunch -- people occasionally make snide
    remarks or look at us funny, but I don't care to spend my life
    avoiding every possible snide remark.  Hey, if I dress and behave
    to please the boss for fear I won't get a promotion, the snipers
    can make snide remarks about me being a brown-nose.  I may as well
    be sniped at for being myself as for being a phony.
    
    And I haven't had anybody hold my personness against me, either. 
    
    --bonnie

    I have to agree with .16 in regard to acting assexual. I think 
    the term "professional"  better fits the way to act.  I recently
    heard thru the grapevine where I work that one of my coworkers
    (male) talked about me to others (male).  The talk was not
    complimentary. I didn't appreciate the sexual innuendos and was
    surprised that he said them.  I have been very professional to
    him at all times.  I don't want anyone thinking of me as anything
    other than their coworker.  I am here to do a function.  My dress
    and behavior have always been professional, bordering on prudish.
    I dress and act that way on purpose.  I guess this one individual
    didn't catch on.

    
    	My wife and I kiss whenever we can at work, in the office or in the
    	hall ways. On the stairs, too. The nice warm hugs are reserved for
    	the office though. It's nice....and those who see us usually give
    	us a nice warm smile. Keep doin' it.
    

    
    
    I never kiss or hug my lover when I visit her facility, and I'm
    usually pretty cautious (maybe anxious) about hugging lesbian friends
    at work -- I feel less anxious about hugging strate women or male
    friends, though, so I suspect in my case it's more internalized
    homophobia than attitudes about professionalism.  I am openly
    affectionate with my lover and lesbian friends in other public places,
    so I guess it's fear of losing my job or fear that coworkers would 
    treat me differently (we know you're gay, but we don't want to *see*
    it) that makes me hold back  at work.  
    
    Justine                         

>I am openly
>    affectionate with my lover and lesbian friends in other public places,
>    so I guess it's fear of losing my job or fear that coworkers would 
>    treat me differently (we know you're gay, but we don't want to *see*
>    it) that makes me hold back  at work.  

 I wonder if one of the reasons people are so taken aback at seeing lesbian
or gay lovers kiss (at work or frankly anyplace else) is due to the fact that
the vast majority of heterosexuals don't get to see it very often. I wonder if
increasing prevalence would lead to increasing acceptance....

 The Doctah

That's interesting Justine. I remember the first time I hugged a friend I knew
was a lesbian at work. I wouldn't have thought more than a split-second with a
het friend, but with a lesbian, I wanted her to initiate it. I thought I was
worried about her; maybe I was [also] worried about something else
(internalized homophobia?).
	Mez

    At our site we have a number of people who are out. Some feel comfortable
    hugging or kissing their lovers at work, some don't. There's a certain
    amount of same-sex hugging that goes on too. I won't claim that we're
    perfect, there is still some tension, but I like the atmosphere.
    
    [We're hiring... any Unixoids out there? Willing to relo to CA?]
    
    	-- Charles