Conference turris::womannotes-v2

>I suspect I will feel obligated to concede to him on household
>issues where we disagree if he is paying more than half
    
    Will he feel he should have more say if he's paying more than half?
    
>he suggested was that we split basic expenses 50-50 (housing, food) but
>that he would pay for all *mutual* discretionary expenses (going out to
>dinner, "toys", etc.)  but I am afaid that will make me feel guilty about
>suggesting things like goinng out to dinner, since I am not paying, and
>will also make me feel guilty about using my own discretionary money on
>things just for *me*...
    
    How about this: agree, but surprise him by taking him out every once in
    a while, buying him presents. This wouldn't commit you to more than you
    can spare, but would even up the balance a little, and would be fun to
    spring on him.
    
    	Andrew.

    It seems to me that the proportional split is better. Then each of
    you are giving what you can and both of you can enjoy a nice
    standard of living. That is your "fair share" and entitles you to be
    half of the decision making team. You each are giving the same
    portion of your income to the couple. liesl

    The proportional split makes sense to me.  In child support issues this
    is the way the state of Colorado handles the split between the two
    parents.  I don't see why this wouldn't work in this situation as well. 
    
    BTW - I happen to be in the reverse situation - I make 63% of my ex's
    and my combined income so my child support is not as high as it could
    be.  On the other hand - success is the best revenge!  :-)
    
    Nanci

    I think I could write a book on this subject!
    
    There is a trade off to be made between maintaining a relationship
    that has an equal powerbase and one which seems fair.  As long as
    things go well either choice can work - but what happens during
    the first financial disagreement? You might not believe how much
    I've lost to lovers because I felt I hadn't contributed sufficiently.
                                      
    With current SO, we share fixed living expenses equally, and since
    each have our own "hobbies" we can buy our toys separately ( and
    without each others approval).
                
    
    'Course, we each have our price and mine is the new horse Susan
    bought me.  
    
    
    -mareen
    

    re: -1
    
    Mareen,
    
    Your answer was great.  I am still hoping to get the horse.
    
    re: .0
    
    When my husband and I first married we kept separate accounts because
    his ex was always trying to accuse him of non-support and once a year
    Bill would have to produce his cancelled checks.  But now that there is
    no more child support, we still keep separate accounts and each pays
    their fair share.  First I was higher, then through a change he became
    higher and so our responsibilities changed.
    
    Money can be quite an issue, but it only masks underlying problems if
    they exist.  You might take a sheet of paper, draw a line down the
    middle and title one side pro and the other con and see how it works
    out.
    
    Hope everying gets solved for the best solution.
    
    Cathy

>    Will he feel he should have more say if he's paying more than half?

No. He claims he doesn't feel that way, and won't, and I believe him.
    
>    How about this: agree, but surprise him by taking him out every once in
>    a while, buying him presents. This wouldn't commit you to more than you
>    can spare, but would even up the balance a little, and would be fun to
>    spring on him.

Well the taking out to dinner and presents and stuff I want to do anyway, 
but without being obligated to do so. I don't think that would relieve my
feelings of guilt and responsibility in using my own discretionary money.
    
Some more thoughts on this...
It is *very* important to me to feel this is *my* place equally.  I have never
really had my own, (semi) permanant place, and in fact have been feeling very
homeless and displaced for the last few years.  That is why the specifics
of the actual livingplace expenses are so important to me.  In some ways I
think I would rather have no discretionary income than have to sacrafice
*any* "ownership" of my space.

Also, the relationship is strange financially...we met while I was still
in school.  I had *zero* income, and he paid for *everything* (including
a two week vacation in CA) and even though I felt a little guilty, it seemed
fair, since I had no money and he had plenty.  It has been kind of hard
to make the transition to more equal now that I do have a real income.  He
still pays for most of our meals out, as it has become sort of habit.  I
do take him out occasionally, but (both of us, I'm guilty too) treat that
as something special, and his treat as "standard".  I don't think he minds
this at all, money is of very little concern to him. But I feel like I am
using him (even though I am not trying to.)

A lot of the problem comes from the fact that I am still in "student mode"
with regard to spending.  I haven't yet really learned that I am making real
money, that I *have* discretionary income.  I haven't adjusted my standard
of living, and am still thinking in terms of "lowest cost at all costs."
Having been out in the world for 10+ years, he is quite used to his standard
of living, and doesn't see why there should be any problem with his paying
for me to share his standard of living rather than him having to lower his
own.

In general I am fantatical about money issues...I always keep my checkbook
balanced, have a budget, etc. He has no *idea* how much he has, deposits
his paychecks erratically, spends when he feels like it, etc...  He doesn't
take money seriously, and doesn't see why it is such a big concern to me.
I am sure he will be amenable to just about any financial arrangement that
suits me.

D!

    
    most people told lauren and me that our financial scheme, not
    terribly different from that described in .0, would fail miserably
    and was foolish to even attempt. i suspect you will hear or have
    already similar portents of doom. this is merely to let you know
    that such schemes *are* viable and i think they are very healthy.
    (lauren and i each put 50% of our incomes in the joint account and
    a set dollar amount in the savings account. joint expenses come out
    of the joint account, the rest is ours to play with. there was
    another note somewhere about finances, but i'm sure our intrepid
    archivist will remember it before i...)
    

>    (lauren and i each put 50% of our incomes in the joint account and
>    a set dollar amount in the savings account. joint expenses come out
>    of the joint account, the rest is ours to play with. 

Do you make close to the same income?  If not, don't you find that one
of you has much more free money, and that the other person can't afford
much in the way of personal spending?  I am curious how you work out
that inequity.  I am tending toward the "ratio method" described previously
because otherwise I would be flat broke all the time.  (We would be
living in a much nicer place than I could afford on my own, even with
a roommate making about the same amount as me.)

I had one relationship where we worked the 50% method, and it worked
fine, but then, both of us had identical incomes...ie: nothing.  (Students.)

D!

re .8... but .7 is describing a ratio method.  If each partner puts 50% of 
income into the household, then their contributions to the household account
are proportional to their incomes; that is, the ratio of the contributions
is equal to the ratio of the incomes.

    Ron and I use the proportional method (he currently makes several 
    times what I do and is sole owner of the house we live in) for 
    household expenses such as mortgage, property tax, and utility 
    payments.  (I think of my payment as "rent.")
    
    We each contribute the same amount weekly toward the groceries.
    
    We each pay for and support our own transportation needs.  
    
    Any money left over from either paycheck once these are paid is for 
    the owner of that check to spend/save/blow as s/he sees fit.  This
    includes taking the other out for dinner on an occasional basis.  
    
    I obviously don't have as much to blow -- plus I pay child support
    and my daughter's college expenses out of my remaining portion.  But 
    for the most part we both agree this is the best way to go.  
    
    He can afford to consider taking flying lessons and I don't gag at 
    the thought of all that money flying away, 'cause I know it will come 
    out of his money rather than "ours."  I can be as thrifty about my 
    clothes and transportation as I want without impinging on his life 
    style. (D!, you said you were still in the student mode; I'm still
    in the single parent mode.)  
    
    I've come to feel the house is part mine through putting some of
    myself into the decorating of it (paint, wallpaper, and fabric paid 
    for with tax refunds from our joint tax returns; work provided as
    sweat equity by me).
    
    The only times we've encountered difficulties with this arrangement 
    (and they've been my difficulties, not his), are at gift-giving times 
    and when we go on vacation.  I do feel guilty if he's giving me a 
    gold and diamond necklace and I'm giving him a flannel shirt!  And I 
    feel guilty when he wants to go to Hawaii for our vacation and is 
    willing and able to provide the plane tickets and the hotel room, yet 
    I'm stretching my budget to the breaking point to pick up the meals.  
    
    If you can work out your own arrangements around these problem areas, 
    I can personally recommend the proportional method.
    
    Karen
    

    Karen, I can definitely connect with your comment about not "gagging"
    on money spent for flying lessons.
    
    John set aside some money a year or so before we were married to
    speculate in the commodities market.  It's "his money" and any losses
    or gains are in that pot of money.  When he hit it big on October 13th,
    all I could think to myself was, "That pays for new carpeting!", but in
    fact it doesn't.  It pays for him to have a wonderful time in the
    market for another year. :^)  Once the pot is gone, if it's gone, it's
    over.  We've agreed on that.  I think this principle can be used for
    any number of expensive activities.
    
    I think any "system" can work so long as there IS a system, and it's
    agreed upon.
    
    Marge

The ratio method can also work for dining out. One of two ways: either each
kicks in the appropriate percentage of the bill (60/40, say), or on an
informal basis, one pays for dinner 60% of the time, and the other 40%.
(This assumes 60/40 is the ratio in question; your mileage...) Or I suppose 
you could use the percentage contribution to a joint account, pay for dinner
out on a joint credit card, and pay the credit card bills from the joint 
account.

Each can have private credit cards for individual discretionary spending.

Another good dining out method that I like since I am a big romantic
and like to treat and be treated is to switch treater and treatee.
The treatee gets the chose the place so that it is within his/her
budget.

john

>re .8... but .7 is describing a ratio method.  If each partner puts 50% of 
>income into the household, then their contributions to the household account

You're right.  Duh.  I don't know if I just didn't read all the words of
the note, or if my brain is still in first gear today.  Boy, do I feel
silly.

Sorry 'bout that, Joe.

D!

    Another method for dining out, when the amount of discretionary money
    is not that far apart is for each to pay half the bill and the person
    with more pay for the tip. With a decent tip, it can actually make a
    difference.
    
    The Doctah

Karen says:

>    Ron and I use the proportional method (he currently makes several 
>    times what I do and is sole owner of the house we live in) for 
>    household expenses such as mortgage, property tax, and utility 
>    payments.  (I think of my payment as "rent.")

Since you brought it up, another issue (which I have bene trying not to
think about to hard) is that my SO is considering (as an alterntive to
moving into a new apartment) buying a house or condo.  There is not *way*
I could afford that (not the level he wants to buy).  Also, while I am
willing to live with him, I am not willing to make the level of commitment
that (in my mind) it takes to buy a house with someone.  (For previously
mentioned reasons, it could be that house buying is overly-important in
my mind.)

What then?  There is no way I could pay half the mortgage, and maybe
not even my "proportion".  (It seems like he even has proportionately
more money than I do, tho I am not sure why this is.)  The house would
belong to him (he has the $$$ for down payment.)  Would I pay him rent?
If so, how much?  What if later we get married or something along those
lines and I want to own the house with him?  (This one is way too sticky,
which is why I have been strongly discouraging the "house buying" option.)

Why is it that love and sharing and commitment and such have to be
tainted with such distasteful realities as money (and house cleaning and...).
It always seemed to me that it *should* be true that if you love someone,
everything else will work itself out, but I am not so naive to believe
that one (again.)  (My SO and I are still negotiating the housecleaning/
life management type of stuff.)

D!

    
    re:.14
    no problem D! i'm not sure i was actually as clear as i might have
    been. anyway, i think the important thing, as marge mentioned, is that
    if you have a system, you must stick to the system.
    
    (having said that, i must confess our system has loosened up in the
    last year or so, largely because we now both make nearly same amount of
    money- not ever true before- and because we're trying to straighten out
    our finances in anticipation of house-buying. however, the basic
    principal of 'yours, mine, ours' still applies. in fact, we feel more
    strongly than ever about it.)
    

When Janice and I first moved in together, lo these many years ago, we were both
starving students, and used the following system. We both put all of our incomes
into the "pot" and paid all of our expenses out of it. We each got an (equal)
allowance. Janice, like D!, kept the checkbook and budget. We discussed large
purchases together (cars, rent, trips). How much each of us made was basically
irrelevant. One way of looking at it is that we formed a partnership, and drew
(equal) salaries. Any discretionary spending came from our allowances.

We still use exactly the same arrangement today. I don't claim it will work for
everyone, but I'm uncomfortable with the notion that "I make more, I get more
say in how it's spent". I find it hard to put into words why this bothers me.
Some is because I was working while she stayed in school and I was making much
more than she was, and paying for much of her education. How do we preserve
both of our self-respect in such a situation? I guess part of it too is that
old fashioned philosophy "from each according to their ability, to each
according to their need", and part of it is that "we're in this together".

I dunno. It works for us.

	-- Charles

    For what it's worth, "From each according to his [sic] ability, to each
    according to his [sic] need" is a quote from Karl Marx.

    I guess I wouldn't characterize it as an "old fashioned philosophy".

>We both put all of our incomes
>into the "pot" and paid all of our expenses out of it.
    
    Ever since I was living in sin :-) with my eventual wife, we always put
    all our money together. I have always made more, though the gap has
    recently shrunk considerably (how come I don't get $100 a week raises?)
    And she had alot of debt when I met her. Undoubtedly I would personally
    be in much better financial shape now if she had to deal with all of
    "her share" with her money, but I took the whole package (wife, bills,
    kids, and all). Warning: this is a tough "system." It takes alot of
    work to make it work.
    
    The Doctah

    There's a couple things in this discussion that bother me -
    
    The first revolves around credit and financial obligations.  Anytime
    you both enter into a contract or credit arrangement, you are both
    obligated to honor that committment.  For instance, if you sign
    a lease and he leaves in the middle of it, you are still responsible
    for the entire remainder of the obligations (not just your half).
    Same goes for credit cards, etc.  Joint Bank accounts are another
    interesting concept - even if the account is in the name of Fred
    and/or Ethel, either party can empty, close, or remove the other
    party from the account (without notification).   Please be careful
    before you combine finances.
    
    Housing is another sensitive topic. I've never felt right paying
    "rent" while my partner payed "mortgage".  There are a lot of benefits
    to owning - beyond just the tax refund - and not sharing these just
    doesn't seem fair. You can find ways to proportionally split the
    ownership and work out something so that if things break up, you'd
    each have first option to buy the other half.
    
    
    
    

    	D!,
    
    	Wait and look for a place when you can afford it while
    	you are single. 
    
    	Why?  The experience will turn you into a Feminist with
    	a capital F.             
    
    						nancy b.
    
    	(who once thought about starting a topic about Realtors,
    	 Banks, and Single Women)
          
    

When I moved in with Bill, he already owned his own home.  Since we weren't
anywhere near married, neither of us felt comfortable with my contributing to
the equity in the house by assuming (informally or formally) part of the
mortgage.  Nor were we comfortable with my paying rent, since I was much more
than a roommate.  What we decided on, and what worked for three years, was
that I would pay the utility bills (electric, phone, sometimes oil, and usually
food (supermarket, not dining out)) as my contribution to living expenses.

I can't say whether our method would work for anyone else, but it worked for
us, and I felt it was at least worth mentioning.

Jill

    We're wrestling  with  this  now,  and haven't decided how to deal
    with it.  Some of the ideas we tossed around were:

Pay equal amounts of the joint expenses
Share of joint expenses proportional to income
Spending money proportional to income
Equal amounts of spending money

    One of  the  problems  we  ran into was that it isn't clear what a
    "joint  expense"  is. Clothing? (her budget is 5 times mine) Food?
    (I  eat  a  lot  more  than  she does.) Cars? (Her commute is much
    longer,  should  I  help pay for that since she moved farther away
    from her job to live with me?)  The list goes on for ever.

    I don't  know  what we'll end up with, but it doesn't seem to be a
    major  issue for us. In the past, I split expenses down the middle
    with  the  woman I lived with, but our incomes were similar and we
    were clearly not going to get married.

    If he  wants  to buy a house, I wouldn't stop him. You can pay the
    same  amount  of  rent you were paying before he bought the house.
    Since  I  owned a house when we met, Cynthia puts what she used to
    spend  on rent minus her commuting expenses into an account to pay
    for  the wedding, with the agreement that if we don't get married,
    that  will  pay for her to move out. This was important to her, as
    she was giving up a good apartment, and I wasn't moving.

--David

>    If he  wants  to buy a house, I wouldn't stop him. You can pay the
>    same  amount  of  rent you were paying before he bought the house.

That's part of the catch.  I am not paying rent.  I don't havea "fixed
amount"...I don't even have a budget yet (I have found it impossible
to come up with a budget since I haven't started my "life" yet, and
have been in personal and financial limbo for the past 9 months.)  So
he would have to decide how much to charge me...

D!

>have been in personal and financial limbo for the past 9 months.)  So
>he would have to decide how much to charge me...



	 I've been asked into this situation before and he only wanted
	 a "token rent" payment, which I was not ready to give (ie,
	 way below what I would normally pay).

	 D!, if he decides on a house, write out a budget of what your
	 bills are, and decide, if you were going to live without him
	 (on your own financially) what you would be expecting to pay
	 for rent.  Use that figure.


	 I know I am very uncomfortable when someone wants to pay more
	 than their share (I've never had that happen to me until
	 recently).  I'm learning that in certain things it is nice to
	 accept that, but in others (like day-to-day living) it makes
	 me very uncomfortable.



	 Writing out a budget of your expenses and what you can afford
	 has to be your first step.


	 kath

>	 Writing out a budget of your expenses and what you can afford
>	 has to be your first step.

I can't, that is what I meant.  You are talking to someone who has never
before in her life had an income. I haven't yet started paying for rent,
food, haven't started paying off my loans yet, have still had major
expenses like car insurance come up since I started working, etc.  
Most of my money recently has been going into paying my mother a nominal
rent, making my car useable and paying off people I borrowed money from
while I was in school.  I don't really have a way to predict my expenses, 
or how much I can afford!  I was kinda guessing on spending between $300 
and $500 a month on housing, including utilities, but that is a pretty big 
margin.  

I simply have no experience on which to base a budget.  The choas in
my life recently that has kept me from getting experience is what I meant
by being in "financial limbo".

Why don't they teach "life management courses" in school?

D!

    D! - methinks it's time to go either to the library or to a
    financial planner.
    
    Or maybe time for a topic on budgeting...  Any accountant types
    out there?
    

    
    
    "Life Management courses" are, alas, taught real time!  If you
    think this part is bad, wait until a baby enters your life and
    the doctor says "You can take your son home today." (my reply
    was "TODAY?  What do I DO with him?") 
    
    Anyway, that little anecdote is not helping your situation much.
    
    It really does sound as if you need to live on your own for a
    while.  
    
    One of the major mistakes that I made in my life was living a
    traditional life in a traditional  marriage.  We had a joint
    checking account, joint homeownership, joint budget-everything
    was based on OUR income.  His being considerably more than mine,
    it was a real shock to me when the marriage ended and so did my
    accustomed style of living.
    
    This time around, I have determined that (while some concessions
    have been made) I need the security of knowing I can take care of
    myself (especially financially) solely on my income.
    
    Like Jill, (I'm not sure why I was surprised that someone else has
    a similar arrangement!), I pay for utilities and groceries, since
    my husband owned our home previous to marriage.  I figure if we
    ever split up, it's still his home, so this is my way of contributing
    to housing and household expenses.
    
    We have separate checking accounts and separate credit cards.  When
    I occassionally use his credit cards, I keep the statement and pay
    off my portion.
    
    We each take care of our own transportation costs.
    
    When we redecorated our home (his house, our home :-), we split
    the cost more or less equally.  
    
    Deborah
    
    

    A little practical information here, in the "rule of thumb"
    category.  
    
    1. Add up ALL your monthly debt payments (car, student loans, 
       credit cards), excluding your current rent and/or utilities.
    2. Look at your total monthly take-home pay.  Take 36% of that
       amount.
    3. The amount in #2 should be larger than the amount in #1.
       (If it isn't, you have a major problem.)  Find the difference
       between these two numbers.
    4. Find 28% of your monthly take-home pay.  
    
    The smaller of #3 or #4 is approximately what you can afford to
    spend on rent or mortgage and still be comfortable.  You could
    probably qualify for a mortgage payment equal to the larger of
    the two numbers, but it leaves you less for creature comforts.
    
    If you want to be conservative, do the figures on the basis of
    a 4-paycheck month.  You'll be sure you can live comfortably
    in all months, and you'll have extra "fun money" or savings
    when 5 Thursdays occur in the same month.
    
    If you want to be aggressive, figure your monthly pay as being
       (Weekly amount X   52)  Divided by  12.
    That will tell you what you WOULD make if DEC paid an even amount
    each month.  If you do it this way, you WILL be tight on cash
    in 4-Thursday months (8 months a year) and will need careful 
    planning to make up the deficit in the 5-Thursday months.  
    
    From personal experience, it gives very UNcomfortable results to
    use a combination of "larger of #3/#4" AND "What I would make if
    DEC paid me the same amount every calendar month."  It's very
    aggressive, even though a bank qualified us on that basis.

    I'll throw in some numbers as a starting point (and because I just
    calculated last month's expenses). There are 5 people living in my
    house,  and we don't allways eat at home, and we tend to eat a lot
    of pasta, all of which tend to keep the expenses down. Having said
    that,  we spend about $150/person-month on "shared expenses" which
    include  food,  utilities,  and  a newspaper subscription, but not
    repairs. Rent is $375.  

    The real  issue  is  finding some arrangement you feel comfortable
    with.  Between  you  you  have  enough  money  to live comfortably
    together,  and  you make enough to support yourself seperately. We
    can't  tell you what will be comfortable for you, all we can do is
    explain what we do and how it's worked.

--David

    I found a terrific book that might help you understand the vagueries of
    budgeting.  The book also discusses budgeting for people who live with
    others, and a variety of other scenarios.
    
    The title is "Financial Saavy for Singles".  I picked it up about 5
    years ago, so I don't know whether or not it's still in print.  Check
    with your local bookstore/library.
    
    I found that the book clearly explained what's what, and made sense of
    a complicated subject.  You might also check out adult ed. courses in
    financial management.
    
    Good luck,
    Judi
    
    

    See topic 778 in this notesfile, it's called "Need help setting
    up budget"....
    
    -Jody
    

>                       -< how to survive on $50K a year >-

Ha ha ha ha.  This is a joke, right?  I don't make anywhere *near* that!
Even *I* could survive on that!  

Thanks to everyone for budgeting pointers, especially .30 for that neat
formula. Who comes up with those things anyway?

Some good news - I talked to Don last night about financial stuff, and
suggested ratio-payment of major expenses (rent/food/util) and that we
each handle transportation, etc on our own.  Also, since he has a lot of
money in savings and I have almost nothing, he will be buying all the
furniture we would need if we got an apt together (neither of us has
anything.)  I realize that this would mean that he keeps it when (oops,
I mean "if") we split, but that's okay.

I also said I wanted him to give me complete control over the finances...
and he said fine!  I feel much better about this because he is so damn
disorganized, particularly about money.  I don't have a budget yet, but
at least I know how much I make, how much I spend and how much I have,
none of which he has any idea about!  (He just submitted his '89 taxes
last month!)

Yeah, I guess it is time to start budgetting...

D!

If either of you has a PC (as in IBM-compatible), and you're organized enough 
to use it regularly, you might look into a program such as Quicken or
Managing Your Money to keep tabs on expenses and budgets.

If you get it and don't use it, it's just another expense, of course.