Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    I dunno. It seems to me that his priorities are screwed up if he is
    unable to divert $25 per month for this purpose (Unless he is in real
    financial straights). Hey- you do what you gotta do. If I were in that
    position, I'd do without whatever I needed to to make sure the bills
    got paid. If that means no beer for 10 months- who's to say it didn't
    work out for the best any?
    
    The Doctah

    Some questions for you.

    When are you getting married (I forget the date)? How are you going to 
    handle finances after you get married? Are you going to have 
    his/mine/ours accounts, or an account where all money goes into it?
    How are outstanding bills going to be handled when you get married -
    combined and paid, or all paid before the ceremony?

    I think some of these answers may help responses.

    G

Gosh, this gets right into some of my toughest issues. I absolutely, positively
need people to come through when they commit to me. I get very tense,
suspicious, and unhappy if they don't. And, I consider 'ok' to be a rock-solid
commitment. This has gotten me into some situations where I was _sure_ that Joe
had commited to something, and he didn't remember. I am currently attempting to
point out in real time when something I perceive to be a commitment happens; to
make sure he knows I'm expecting it. It isn't easy.

And money; what a morass! True love was having a joint checking account.
Actually, true trust. I'm _very_ protective of my finances; and the joint
checking account is _not_ my primary cash repository. I realize not everybody
is as anal about money as I am; and I don't want someone who isn't to have
access to my bucks! :-)

Just some personal thoughts; hope it helps. I can really empathize, and all
this is meant to say is maybe, just maybe, he's just seeing things differently.
Of course, maybe not. Only you can tell.
	Mez

Lise,
I don't have an answer for you, but I think youare doing the right thing
by rethinking this.  Whatever you decide, you should definitely take his
actions into account.  Even if you decide that you still want to marry
him, just remember.  It *is* possible to forgive and not to forget...which
may mean that you aren't angry, and aren't blaming him anymore, but in
the future taking everything he says about commitment with just a little
more skepticism than you might otherwise.

It is an unfortunate reality that I only learned recently that it *isn't*
true (as I had previously thought) that being painstakingly honest and
reliable with someone means they will do the same for you.

Only you can decide whether the lesser degree of trust you will feel as a
result of this is worth giving up the whole relationship.

And while it isn't true that being trustworthy *guarantees* that someone will
be trustworthy in return, remember that it *helps*, and people tend to be
more honest with those in whom they sense honesty.  In other words, rather
than get into a tit for tat, try to set a good example for him!

D!

    Oh Boy! I could get carreid away with "a commitment is a commitment".
    As I see it, you are only looking for $25.00 a month from him to hold
    up your arrangment with your doctor. Your fiance contributed his 50%
    when you conceived, why not contribute 50% now?
    
    By the way, my heart goes out to you for what you must have gone
    through, physically and mentally. You don't deserve to be "screwed"
    again by this guy.

This is not a good beginning, and the fact that you are asking the 
question means that deep inside yourself you know that to be true.  
If you marry the guy, the chances that you'll end up with all the 
responsibilty for the marriage as well as the bill are pretty good.  

Feeding, clothing, and caring for children requires a hell of a lot 
more than a $25/month commitment.  You've supposedly got the glitter of 
early love going for you, and if he can't come through now the chances 
of him "growing" and coming through for you when you've got stretch 
marks and are frazzled from teething and colic and day care costs and 
making the car payment don't look so hot to me.

	 I think you need a lot more clarification from him about what
	 he meant.

	 Trust is very important, and I, like Mez (I think that was
	 who is was), need for people to come through for me when they
	 promise something (especially when they say they will
	 pay/help pay for something, then don't).  Many times, I know,
	 that I don't press the issue and take the brunt of the
	 financial position it puts me in....but the consequence is
	 that I start simmering a big lack of trust for that
	 person....and it festers and eventually destroys the
	 relationship because I no longer trust the person.

	 When, in reality, if I had just discussed it with the person
	 a little more, I would have seen that it wasn't a breech of
	 trust as all, simply a misunderstanding and/or
	 miscommunication.


	 In fact, I'm struggling with one right now, and I KNOW I
	 should talk to the person, but instead I'm sitting her
	 festering the distrust.

	 talk to him....get clarification....

	 kath

    I wish to clarify a point. He'd would be responsbile for the next
    250.00 whci would be 50.00 monthly. As of the end of this month
    I will have paid out my 250.00 at 50.00 installment payments.
    
    I called my dad asked him what state my mom was in mentally if she
    could handle giving me some advice, he said she could, so I called
    her today at lunch and she said wait ask again after the New Year...
    December everybody gets touchy about bills... Which sounds good
    to me but I can't help remember the way he his voice nor his words
    when I first remineded him about it. As for his affording it, HE
    CAN I KNOW HIS EXPenses.!!
    
    

Hmmmm Lise; is the issue really one of being nice to you; valuing what you
value? I ask because of your second-to-last sentence. I know I've had to kick
Joe in the teeth (metaphorically speaking) a couple time. You know "Dammit, be
nice to me buster!". It works on him :-).
	Mez

    Lise,
    
    It depends on how you're feeling.  If you're really comfortable
    waiting until after New Year's, and think that would be best, go
    ahead.  I wouldn't be able to do that peacefully -- I'd spend the time
    stewing and getting madder and more hurt and less trustful and I'd end
    up ruining my own holidays.  (Patience was never a strength of mine.)
    
    Yeah, people get touchy about money this time of year.  But this isn't
    going to be the last money discussion the two of you ever have, and
    the current state of affairs is obviously unsatisfactory to you.  If 
    you can use this to build a better way to have future discussions,
    you'll be that much ahead.
    
    It would certainly put you on firmer ground to know in clear, concise
    words what he wants to do and how he really feels about all this.  It
    would also give him valuable insight to let him know what you
    understood from that encounter and just how scared and unsure you have
    felt about it.  That will matter to him.
    
    Symbols are everything!  What this means to him may be very different
    than what it means to you.  That's OK, but it's important to find out
    what symbols are in play; there's a lot more at stake here than $250 in
    legal tender.
    
    Beth

    Remind him of what he said.  Mention that you feel his current attitude
    may reflect on your future together - tell him that what he is doing
    NOW is affecting your opinion of how he will be in the FUTURE, and
    that he should think "in N months or years, will I still need this
    leeway, will I still require this leeway (financially)?  Will I
    still need this leeway commitmentwise (i.e. I can back out if I
    need to and don't think it's important to me)?"
    
    Another question - was he there emotionally when you were undergoing
    the difficulty?  Maybe his depth of commitment is different from
    yours, and this is one way he may be manifesting it.  I'd say talk
    to him about how this situation makes YOU feel, how his backing
    out when he can obviously afford it makes YOU feel - and ask whether
    or not he understands why you feel this way - whether or not he
    even REALIZED his actions affected you.  Let him know what's going
    on with you.  There may be a good reason (maybe he's saving up for
    a cruise to Miami or something)......
    
    Good luck,
    
    -Jody

    Lise,
    
    Difficult to be supportive *and* tell what I did in a similar situation.
    You are in a hard place, no doubt about it.

    You seem really clear on what you feel, which is great.   But what do
    you WANT and NEED?  Quite a while ago I was in a similar situation
    (different particulars but very similar).  Big problem was knowing I
    wasn't comfortable but not being clear about the rest.

    You have paid the doctor for the past 6 months.  You didn't have any
    choice, whatever your other financial responsibilites were or what else
    you wanted to spend the money on, you paid it.  Also, reading your note
    about losing your baby, I see that the reason for the bill is
    emotionally loaded for you.

    Knowing what your fiance thinks and feels about the doctor bill and
    your loss is good information to have.  You'll need to discuss it with
    him to find out.  But neither the loss nor the bill will simply go
    away.  You have to do something. Talk with him or simply pay it all
    yourself.  Share the grief and the financial burden or shoulder it all
    yourself.  (And maybe, in the process, find you are carrying a load of
    resentment, as well.)

    I wonder too, if like me in the past, you hesitate to "make a fuss about
    the bill" because you are afraid to lose the relationship with your SO.
    Talking about uncomfortable topics and standing up for how you feel and
    for what you need is necessary in a good relationship.  You may not
    what to hear this, but if talking about something as important as
    responsibility and trust (financial and emotional) breaks up the 
    relationship, then maybe it's a good thing.

    In my situation, I blew it.  I constantly shouldered it all myself, making
    allowances for my husband, feeling the sacrifice made me a good woman
    and a loving wife. I let him make excuses (and made excuses for him and
    felt like a martyr).  When the burden (financial and emotional) became
    so big I sould no longer carry it all, I asked him to share it. He
    left.  He still hasn't paid back what he owes me financially, not even
    his half of the divorce expenses.  It was a painful lesson and *very* 
    expensive.

    I found I had a man to whom I was married but who was simply not there
    for me.  A husband (or fiance) must be there for you.  IMO: A husband
    should be willing to share (and actively share) life's burdens as well
    as joys. 
    
    If you can live without the basic supports of financial responsibility,
    trust, and emotional support, then drop the mattter and pay it all
    yourself.  But I think it's a bad precedent.

    I'm sorry if this sounds harsh.  Recalling my past recalls the
    sorrow and pain as I write this.  My present is much stronger,
    much more together, and *much happier*.

    Much supportive prayer and many hugs to you,
    
       --Margaret

    Lise,
    
    I guess I'm having a hard time believing you could misunderstand "I
    will pay half the bill".  From what you say, he isn't denying that he
    said it, or saying that you misunderstood, just that he can't/won't
    start paying his 50% until the spring. This isn't something that just
    came up. He's known about this obligation for several months. I guess 
    if I were you, I'd be questioning his priorities.
    
    My daughter's father very often breaks his commitments to her and/or
    "can't afford" to help her when she needs it.  The truth is, it
    wouldn't even occur to him to give up something (i.e. a couple of games
    of golf one month) to send her money for a necessity.  Is it possible
    that you fiancee tends to be the same way?
    
    My shrink used to tell me (all the time) that the way we deal with
    money says alot about seemingly unrelated feelings.  Without getting
    nuts about it, you may want to ask yourself if your fiancee's handling
    of this situation says something about how feels about you, the
    relationship etc.
    
    Good luck to you.
    
    Polly

    re: .12
    
    I agree with what Margaret pointed out about unresolved financial
    issues.  Differences regarding values around finances can destroy a
    relationship most effectively.
    
    It sounds like you need to clarify things with your fiance, and if he
    is unwilling to talk about the issue in an adult manner then perhaps
    there is a message to you about what things would look like in the
    future.
    
    Laura
    

    re.13
    
    Please understand where I am coming from I am not dening the fact
    that he'd said the would pay in late spring but in late spring I
    will have the bill paid off! 
    
    Where I am having trouble, is this man who once was my boyfriend
    and now is my fiance said to me even before I qualified for "Free
    Care" from the Hospital or applied for welfare was no matter what
    the bills were he would pay half! As I said before this was his
    decision alone. I questioned him as to why he felt that he had to
    pay half and his answer was " The baby was also mine." "you didn't
    get pregnant by yourself." I asked him if he was sure he wanted to
    do it, and he replied that he was.
                            
    Now comes the time that he takes responsible for his half, it is
    I'll do it when I can afford, it, which is a lie because I know
    the household expenses, we split them 50/50 and have been for the
    last 2 1/2 years that I have lived there! He can afford 50.00 monthly
    God knows I have to ask a bank after this X-Mas for a cosoliderateation
    loan to pay off all bills then make only payment to a bank for the
    next 3 years. If he had kept up his agreement then I could have
    taken that money and put it towarad other bills!
    
    Lise
    

    I didn't have time to search through the file, so I figured I just
    ask.... what does SRO stand for?

    "Supportive Responses Only"
    
    You needn't search the whole file...SRO/FGD and FWO/FGD are both
    documented in 1.*, as any other similar features or policy changes will
    be.
    
    						=maggie

    
    
    My dear, pay the entire bill and walk out of the relationship.
    $250 is a small price to pay for the lesson you've learned (in-
    sight into this man's character).
    
    Deborah
    

    RE: .18
    
    I have a hard time communicating with any person I care about. Since
    I know whats it like to not want to upset someone, I wouldn't advocate 
    telling her to give up all she's invested, but I would advocate forcing 
    her to sit down with him, and *really* talk about it. Find out what he
    is really feeling, why he is feeling it, and let him know what she is
    feeling and why. First and foremost is just to talk... don't let the
    person wonder what is going on. Get it out so that he knows what she is
    feeling.
    
    If after talking a compromise can't be worked out, then its time to
    look at what should be done to the relationship...  Money problems can
    be worked out. I know my Dad hates paying bills, so my mom takes care
    of them all.  If they had never talked about it, their marriage could
    have come to an end over it. Instead they talked, compromised and it
    worked out well.
    

    re .15
    
    Lise,
    
    What I was saying in .13 was that I believe that you DID understand
    what he said; that his agreement to pay half of the bill is not a
    misunderstanding as some of the other replies have suggested and his
    current "I'll pay it in the spring" stance is tantamount to reneging
    on his commitment.  Added to his not finding that commitment to you
    important is the fact that (I assume) he knows that you're struggling
    financially.  If I were you, I'd have to really think long and hard
    about his character and about his ability to be a partner in the type
    of supportive relationship that you deserve.
    
    Understand what YOUR needs are both now and later and take care of YOU!
    Maybe there's a good future with this guy, I can't make that decision.
    But make sure of that before you invest alot more of yourself.
    
    Polly

    
    
    Lise,
    
    I agree with what Catherine said: the fact that you are asking these
    questions of yourself and raising them here in the file suggests
    that you have some pretty deep doubts.  I encourage you to spend
    some time thinking about what it means to you that he seems to
    be blowing off a commitment he made to you.  Ask him to explain
    himself if you think you need more information, but I hope you won't
    ignore these feelings that have come up for you.  I think the only
    thing worse than having a relationship go badly when you couldn't
    see it coming is having it go badly when you *did* see it coming. 
           
    We all get scared sometimes, and I'm sure we've all thought about
    running away from commitments.  But it seems like mothers with babies
    don't get to run away; they have to stay and take care of the kids..
    for years and years.
    
    Good luck.   I'm impressed that you decided to talk about this here.
    
    Justine                                                             

    Lise:
        
    I agree with Catherine (.06).  You should be glad in a way that
    you didn't carry the child to full term, who knows what might have
    happened then.
    
    My heart goes out to you -- when I was 21 I had a very life-threatening
    ectopic.  At the time, my boyfriend of almost 5 years was totally
    supportive, both emotionally *and* financially.  Your sweetheart
    should accept the responsibility, as he was 1/2 of the reason why
    your conceived in the first place.
    
    If he is this hesitant to live up to his part of the responsibility,
    maybe you should think twice about your commitment to him.  You
    might spend all your life making the concessions and the compromises
    ... (IMHO).  Right now life is probably really confusing for you,
    what with the illness of one of your parents, and the grief I'm
    sure you feel inside over the loss of your child.  
    
    Be strong!  You can get over this sadness, life does go on and we
    learn (hopefully!) through our past transgressions and problems.
     You are probably wanting to lean on your fiance throughout this
    period, if he isn't there for you, maybe you should re-think your
    situation.  
    
    Good luck.  Please MAIL if you need to talk, I can definitely relate
    to what you are going through.  I know it isn't easy.  I lost my
    SO about 1 year after I lost the baby, I ended the relationship
    because the pain inside was so much, I couldn't stay any longer.
    
    Tammi
    
    

Joe and I have worked out a signal so that he knows when something is _really_
important to me. I discovered that even though I (and all my female friends who
are trained to be aware of others) am good at telling when something is
important to someone, Joe is not that earthshattering (at least in
non-work-related situations). Mike may be the same way.

Working out this signal was difficult (born of being close to the end of my
rope; he _could_ pick up on that :-). You might consider doing that.

I schedule a time to talk to Joe about a subject, and tell him what it is.
That's the signal. That gives him some time to think about it himself, plus
lets him know he's got to talk about it. 

Consider EAP as well. I've learned alot about the signals I do (and don't)
throw off from therapy.
	Mez

     
    I wanted to rewrite .23 and I am going to do that.
    
    I brought up the subject of the bill again to Mike, he questioned
    me about the finality of the amount I assured him that This was
    the final amount that I owed. 250.00 broken down into 50.00 monthly
    payments. Mike went on to say how he said he would pay half at the
    time all this happened. Then in the next breath he was saying I
    guess I can't fix the car or even think about getting a new one,
    or forget about any saving towards a new house etc etc....
    
    I was by this time doing the dishes listening to him and thinking,
    
    Great his car is broken he gets the kids every weekend all three
    of them, and I don't always go with him and the kids althugh I am
    invited by them all. Do I have the right to impair him in that way
    when Yes I can pay the bill, it means I have to restructure my other
    bills and the payments going out, but he needs the transporation,
    he has no choice about taking his children. I mean at least I can
    pay the bill, and be repayed at a later time.
    
    So Still a little hurt, and still angry about the turn of events
    but realizing that accept the things we cannot change the courage
    to change the things we can, and the difference to know the difference.
    
    I told him to repay me when he could afford it. I didn't say it
    in my normal voice care-free. But I did it the best voice I could
    manage.
    
    Lise

    
    
    Lise, I apologize if my reply to you sounded abrupt and condescending.
    Having been in a very similar situation, my heart goes out to you.
    What I meant to say to you is this:  "I hear you making excuses for
    him. I can hear the excuses because I've heard them before, in my 
    own mind and from my own lips. I suspect that you love him very much,
    and that you want this relationship to work.  And you are trying 
    your best to make sure that it DOES continue.  Please, please, think
    of yourself too....I can understand that he has other responsibilites
    and problems of his own. And of course you want to be understanding
    and supportive.  Do not neglect yourself in the process."
    
    It is so common, and so easy, for women to excuse the actions of
    the men in their life.  Women tend to be care-takers.  Women forget
    that they too need to be cared for....there are dozens of books on
    the subject-from "Co-Dependency" to "Women Who Love Too Much"....
    I found these books quite informative.
    
    And last but most certainly not least, my sympathy for your past
    health problems.  Ectopic pregnancies are physically and emotionally
    devastating (I know, cause I've been thru one). Please know that your
    chances of another tubal pregnancy are now increased, and be alert
    for symptoms...
    
    Deborah
    
     

    
    
    
    RE.26 > having obe tublar makes it easier for me to have another...
    I am under strict orders NOT to get pregnant because that is what
    will happen to me.  
    
    Lise

	 Lise......you might suggest having him pay you $25 a month so
	 that the effects are devastating on either of you. (And you
	 pay the other $25 for the remaining time and then have him
	 oweing you.)


	 See if working the bill out to a compromise is okay with him.
	 Does he know you will have to restructure your other bills to
	 pay it off?


	 Brown bag your lunches to work if you don't already.  You'd
	 be surprised where you can save money when in a pinch.

	 kath

    Lise....my heart goes out to you but I urge you to really listen
    to your second thoughts about this situation.  Sometimes your best
    advice comes from within yourself.
    
    Bringing your concerns to the notes file is a step in the right
    direction.  It shows you recognize this situation as a concern and
    are looking for some direction.
    
    My own personal feelings about your situation are not important
    but yours are.  You deserve to be treated well....just remember
    that.
    
    Nancy

    My first reply was lost when the network connection failed.  Maybe
    this one will be better.
    
    Two things you mentioned struck a cord.  You've already invested
    2 1/2 years of your life with this man; you have his children every
    week-end.  We've been taught not to give up.  I didn't want to 
    think of myself as a "quitter."  Are you perhaps more attached to the
    kids than you realize?  I know I stayed in a relationship after I knew 
    it was over because I didn't know how to deal with the hurt of not
    seeing the children again.
    
    You cannot change anyone but yourself.  You may think if *I* only
    ___ (fill in the blank) than maybe *he* will ___ (etc.).  It doesn't
    work.  If it's not on his agenda, you (nor anyone else) cannot put
    it there.  He may have grown up in an environment where someone
    else would pick up the slack if he didn't live up to his end of
    the deal.  If you pay his way now, you'll simply reinforce this.
    It's not a trait to be admired nor supported.
    
    You have to ask youself... is this part of his character, or simply
    a bad habit?  The answer to this will determine whether you should
    stay or go.
    
    An alternative to consider.  Ask the doctor's billing person to
    send your fiance a bill.  He may be the type who only really recognizes
    a debt if he has it in black and white on paper in his hands.
    
    What ever you decide, my prayers are with you over this holiday
    season.
    
    Karen