Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    Ask the  archivist  for  the exact reference, but there was a note
    entitled  "Are  we making progress?" or something like that, which
    discussed similar issues.

--David

    My all-girl high school combined curriculums with the all-boy high
    school across the street, making it possible for women to take physics
    and men to take sewing.  Positive.
    
    It didn't affect my generation, but certainly my nieces:  the boys of
    the family and the girls of the family are given equal opportunity to
    pursue higher education, if their performance in high school warrants
    it.  In my generation, we were allowed to attend state colleges while
    the boys attended Yale and U of Chicago.  Definitely, a positive trend.
    
    Women are no longer seen as failures if they choose not to marry. 
    Positive.
    
    Women are no longer seen as oddballs if they choose to make a career
    for themselves other than the traditionally accepted nursing and
    teaching careers.  Positive.
    
    It is no longer acceptable (although still done) to drag a woman's sex
    life through court if she chooses to prosecute a rapist.  The old
    double-standard still lives, but is not accepted as readily.  Guardedly
    positive.
    
    Women have been taught that their own needs take priority over those of
    their unborn offspring.  Negative.
    
    Marge

    
    I was in my teens when "Our Bodies, Ourselves" came out. My mom took me 
    and my sister to a workshop on doing your own gyn exam. ycuk, gross!
    But it did give me the courage to take a mirror and look at myself, and
    be familiar with the shapes that I saw, to know when things looked a
    little out of kilter. Its also enabled me to understand what to touch
    and how, to get the response I need.
    
    I think the respect now given to PMS and cramps is LONG overdue. Having
    accessible over-the-counter drugs that block the pain happened recently
    when Ibuprofen hit the market. Midol has NOT worked for me in years.
    Needless to say, I am GRATEFUL!!!
    
    And abortion. Goodness knows where I'd be and what I'd be doing now, if
    abortion was not legal. I don't even want to think about it!!!
    
    A lot of this stuff seems kinda chicken-and-egg. I don't know whether
    these things happened because women had more economic power and these
    things became profitable, or because some altruistic soul finally
    realized that women needed these things, and because we now have them,
    our lives are more bearable. But *my* life is certainly bettered by the
    things I have named. 

    Feminism has made me aware of where I (and my parents) went wrong,
    and enabled me to raise my daughter differently, hopefully to be
    a more independent (especially financially) and well-rounded person
    than I am.  Reading feminist literature has helped me to feel better
    about myself by making me realize that I am/was not alone in thinking
    that women had not been treated equally over the years, and it helped
    me to question the way things are even more.
    
    I think the attention that feminism has brought to abused wives
    and the struggles of single parents is very important, as well as
    rape awareness (as Marge mentioned).   
    
    I can't think of any negative aspects which outweigh the positive,
    such as equal pay, legalized abortion, more kinds of and more awareness
    of birth control, and (almost) end of the double standard as far
    as sex goes.
    
    Lorna
    

	I was going to put this in the what is a feminist string, but maybe
it should go here instead. 

	I think you're a feminist if:

	  1) you recognize that women have been second-class human beings
	     for the past several thousand years 
  	  2) you see this as a wrong
  	  3) you feel a sense of connectedness with others who also see it
	     as a wrong 
  	  3) you start trying to do something about it.

	I'd say I'm somewhere around stage 3. It's only since someone
pointed me to Barbara Walker's book The Woman's Encyclopedia of Myths and
Secrets about two years ago that I really began noticing just how
subordinated women are and have long been. It's still sinking in, though I
think that recently I crossed some kind of threshold. Lately I feel as if
flaps have been ripped off my eyes. I'm about at the stage where in the
movie "All the President's Men," around 3/4 way through the movie after Bob
Woodward has met with Deep Throat for maybe the third time, suddenly the
awesome magnitude of the crime that has been committed begins to dawn on
him. And he runs out of the parking garage in sheer terror... 

	I have trouble understanding how I simply accepted women's
subordination for so long. I think women do this, though. Sexism and
misogyny got into the religious and symbol-making systems in Western
civilization very early on in the Judeo-Christian tradition (*pace* those
who like to think there isn't one), and as a result we all take these
attitudes in with our mothers' milk, so to speak. Women and men alike. And
we don't question them; they've been made invisible. 

	I've been doing a lot of reading of feminist books lately. I find
this helps me remain sane -- it helps me to realize (as someone else noted
in here recently) that others are in the same predicament. The loss of
women's history (men have written the history of what men have done; who,
until very recently, has tried to write the history of what women have
done?), the atrocities perpetrated against women (rape, abuse, witch-
burning, footbinding, etc.), the devaluation of women by religion and the
media (god = male; women = sex objects), the denial of or limits on women's
education, women's poor economic situation, the paucity of women leaders,
etc. etc. The systematic exclusion of women from the entire fabric of
Western thinking, decision-making, priority-setting, since the beginning.
The little, humiliating, every-day instances of sexism against women. It
all adds up... 

	I'm sorry that some people in this file have trouble with the word
"feminist." I think Sue Conlon hit it on the head when she suggested (in
the string on what is a feminist) that it takes a lot of nerve for women to
name a movement after themselves. For men, after all, have always been the
ones to name everything. Maybe the word feminist is like the word woman,
which I've noticed is also one that a lot of people choke on. I don't think
feminist means separatist. It means equalist. It means attaining a balance
of something that has been way out of balance for millennia. If that means
concentrating on women's problems instead of men's for a while, well maybe
that's what it will take to restore that balance. 

	I hope to get to what I see as stage 4, where you start to try to
do something about it. At this point, I really don't know what to do, other 
than more reading and talking to people. I'm too busy trying to adjust to
having to live with the raw awareness of what the problem is, to know how
to solve it. 

Dorian

    The topic mentioned can be found in this notesfile (V2), note 
    334 - Are We Making Progress on Sexism.
    
    -Jody
    

    It's made people accept me and my ideas more.  I have always been
    feminist and as a result my childhood was not the nicest one could
    have.  I constantly rebelled and refused to be intimidated and
    pushed around by men and male sexist ideas.  I always pushed my parents,
    my teachers and everyone else for logical explanations for the
    ridiculous things they insisted I do/be/not do/not be.  I was an 
    exasperating child and a "bad girl".  But even that didn't bother me.  
    Given what "ladies" were supposed to do/want/be/have, I'd take the
    "bad" anyday.  I've always considered myself mentally healthy and
    now, when I see all the angst and screwed up lives of women who
    buckled under in childhood and now want to be free but cannot dig
    through all the layers of junk to get to their real selves, I rejoice
    that I was a "bad girl".  My younger sister was even badder and
    she's even happier and more satisfied with her life.
    
    No wonder women have traditionally suffered far more depressions
    than men - far more admissions to mental hospitals.  Take any human
    being and brainwash them into thinking they are mere prey animals in
    a world where the hunters make all the rules and the best they can
    do is try to be a "pet" to a hunter, and they'll end up with some
    pretty skewed ideas about the world.  I feel most sad for women
    who bought into subservience and now are too old to take advantage
    of the open doors even if they could change their mindsets enough
    to want to, or to believe they deserve to.  I'd be mighty pissed.
                                                        

    re.0 Women in traditionally male, 'dangerous' jobs, like
    flying (and, sadly, dying) in the space shuttle. In jobs
    where the quality of one's *mind* is the critical element
    of competence, we need to avail ourselves of the very best.
    This includes virtually every job in today's market. 
    
    "Strong back, weak mind" jobs can best be done by simple or
    complex machines, operated by intelligent persons.

    In a high school of today I would have been allowed to take drafting
    and I would not have been the only female in my physics class.  In
    a college of today I would not be told that there would be no way to
    pass inorganic and organic chemistry so I should drop the course before
    I started. 
    
    On the other hand I was fortunate enough to have had a mother 		
    (whatever else she did wrong and there was plenty) who in the thirties
    was an advance publicist for her barnstorming husband, in the forties
    ran a flying school to train pilots, and in the late forties and up
    until the mid seventies was a realtor and owner of the business and not
    an agent. (In 1942 along with running her school, she was the first
    female realtor in Fairfield County Conn.)
    
    I have met some people in their 20's who do not realize what we fought
    for in the sixties and seventies and have said that saving the whales
    or whatever was more important that ERA since women could make choices.
    
    How quickly a society forgets.
    
    Cathy

The Feminist Movement has certainly changed my life and my goals. I am
proud of the small part I played in the movement which was mostly to work
in Indiana for legalizing abortion before Roe vs. Wade. I hope some day 
I am able to forgive the "Right to Lifers" for the abuse they heaped on me
and others brave enough to stand up for a woman's right to choose in those
early days. I know I will never forget.

While a wife and young mother I attended the first national convention of the
Women's Political Caucus in Houston, Texas and worked for the ERA. 

It was not until I went back to school after my divorce that I realized that
many new doors were open for women. When I graduated from college in 1960
women became teachers, nurses or secretaries. If you were 3 times as good as
the men you could try other professions but only if your duties as wife and
mother were not neglected.

I am most happy with the changes it has meant for my daughter. She is so
proud and independent and sure of herself and her abilities.  While in
college she spent a year studying in Spain and then spent the summer
travelling alone throughout Spain. I remember my mother having a fit one
time when I planned to drive from Louisville to my home in Indianapolis
with my 2 year old son in the car in broad daylight. She felt it wasn't
safe for a woman to travel alone. She actually wanted my husband to take a
bus to Louisville and drive me back to Indianapolis.

When I was in high school there were no competitive sports for girls.
My daughter was captain of the swimming team and I remember one meet when
she brought the girls relay team from last to first. The spectators: men and,
women including the male principal went wild. And they tried to tell us nobody
was interested in watching "Girls Sports".

I was fortunate to have participated in competitive swimming when I was young.
Not in school because there were no girls sports, but in a team sponsored by
a Louisville Swimming Club.  When I was 16, myself and a friend applied for a
job as lifeguards at the pool.  It took a Board of Directors meeting to turn
us down, but turn us down they did because they didn't hire "girls". The big
reason was that they didn't think "girls" could empty trash cans like the
big strong "boys". Now when I go back to Lakeside I see that most of the guards
are women.  They seem to be handling the trash can problem.

My daughter is now in Medical School and thinks nothing of it.  In fact almost
50% of her class are women.  Boy is the medical profession in for a change. It
takes 8-10 years to train a doctor, but it will come.

I am also impressed with changes in men.  The increased involvement of men
with the raising of their children is the most noticeable.  I wonder
when men will fully realize that the Women's Movement freed them as well.

I had a great aunt who founded a successful lumber company in Louisville, Ky
right after World War I.  She was secretary to a man who owned another
lumber company and when he gave her some trouble she went out and opened her 
own company competing with him using skills she learned from him.  Incredible!
She had men working for her including my grandfather. The company still
exits, but has been sold outside the family.  Unfortunately I did not learn
about my aunt's role until after she was dead.  I really believe the family was
ashamed of her for her single status and her unfeminine role.  I intend 
to research and write a book about her when I retire.

I think I was always a feminist and that I came by it naturally. My greatest
regret is that it came too late for my mother.  She was a smart woman who spent
most of her life in traditional womens roles.  Only in her later years did
break out somewhat to work for environmental issues and to travel extensively 
throughout the world overcoming her objection to women travelling along.  

    Positive:  In my working lifetime, restrictions have 
    been eliminated on the number of hours a woman may 
    work in a day or week and in the nighttime hours she 
    may work.  It was hard to be a dedicated programmer
    when it was illegal for me to work after 11pm.
    
    There are no longer written or unwritten rules
    preventing a woman from entering any job for which
    she is qualified.  (There may still be isolation
    and harassment).  I remember when women were not
    hired at Digital as diagnostic programmers, field
    service technicians, truck drivers, or operating 
    systems designers.
    
    Negative: for some jobs, when women have entered in
    large numbers (>30%) the relative salary drops.
    Examples: computer operators, ministers in some
    denominations. 
    
    Positive:  A woman can take effective action against
    a co-worker or superior who demands sexual favors in
    exchange for favorable treatment on the job.  I quit
    my first job when faced with the choice of sex with 
    my boss or a bad performance review.
    
    Positive: a woman can travel alone and receive good
    service.  A woman alone is no longer treated as if
    she was looking for sex.  Bars do not refuse to serve
    a woman alone.
    
    I'm beginning to remember how ghastly it was to be
    a career woman living alone in the 60's.  No wonder
    I was seriously depressed a lot of those years!  I
    guess we need to remember in order to never go back.
    
    Pat  
    
    

    I have more freedom now to work in a supportive, compassionate,
    non-competitive style because of the contribution of women in
    the workplace.  I feel that feminism has helped to open up
    alternatives to the traditional management techniques that were
    severely limited in the scope for human action and behavior.
    
    Also, the changes brought by feminism have helped open up
    possibilities for friends and family in terms of choice and
    occupation.  The workplace is richer for its diversity,
    
    Ron 

    Having recently entered the workforce, I've benefitted from the gains
    made by the women before me.  Hence, I'm guilty of taking much of
    the progress which resulted from feminism for granted.

    A positive effect of feminism is that I don't *question* whether women
    are capable of accomplishing whatever they'd like.  This removes what
    could be a major debilitator.

    I can't think of any negative effects of feminism.

    Sue

    I left the Movement years ago because separatism = the male counterpart
    to misogyny.  (Is there a word for this?)  Some of the ultra radicals I
    hung out with in the 70's didn't have any use for women who happened to
    be heterosexual.  After I ran screaming from them and regrouped, I
    found my own language heavily peppered with "men this and men that". 
    One can only do so much blaming without taking responsibility.  After
    all, we women, caretakers of the world, have raised all these men.  And
    if we're trying to prove that biology is NOT destiny, then men cannot
    have some genetic inferiority that causes them to prey on women,
    children, each other.  (Unless women carry it also.)
    
    Now I live a life dedicated to the freedom/protection/rights of humans,
    animals, plants, planets, the Aurora Borealis, etc.  As a victim, I
    have had to take responsibility for my actions in some way.  The two
    times I was sexually assaulted I was in situations that common sense
    and very strong gut feelings told me I shouldn't have been in.  Not
    that those men were provoked (by me) into those actions or that I
    deserved being assaulted or that they don't have **severe**
    psychological problems, but I now listen to those gut reactions and can
    say that if I do get into those situations it's not a split second too
    long.  (Don't want to argue all the details here--I've never come up
    against a weapon, I'm physically whole/fit, etc.)  In fact, I managed
    to evade a (potential?) mugging in Grand Central just a month ago.
    
    I'm eternally grateful to the Movement, and during my active
    participation I had some of the best times of my life.  I began liberating
    myself at the age of ten, maybe even sooner.  So if I had lived in another
    century I might have been committed to an insane asylum because of my
    ideas, my mouth and/or my lifestyle.  Maybe I'll have the opportunity
    to raise a son as a total human being.  I'm thoroughly confident of being
    able to do that with a daughter.  It's just time to move on.
    
    Nancy-who-keeps-forgetting-to-put-her-name-here

    re:.15
    
    Well, a word for the "male counterpart to misogyny" doesn't exist
    officially that I know of ("misanthropy" refers to mankind in
    general), but "misandry" would be a reasonable one to coin.
    
    --- jerry