Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    Introduce "sex" to a friendship, in my experience, and it must either
    get closer or fall apart.  Cold casual sex has a habit of ruining
    a friendship - because generally there's an underpinning element of
    trust  that hasn't been developed yet if it happens too soon.  Warm
    sex may lead to love.  
    
    One thing for sure, a friendship is rarely the same once sex is
    introduced (and I'm probably overstepping my bounds but I'd hazard
    a guess that it's not just het sex that changes friendships)...
    
    -Jody
    

	 Hummmm....

	 I've rarely had a problem with having sex inside a
	 friendship....usually, it neither strengthens, nor tears
	 apart a friendship.

	 But, I refuse to have sex with a friend that is "interested"
	 in me, and I'm not interested that way in them.  That gives
	 the friend expectations which I would not want them to have.


	 But mutual sharing between two people that don't "expect"
	 something more afterwards is beautiful.  I've never been so
	 relaxed and so excited as when I'm with a friend that I can
	 share like that with.

	 But after it's all over, the friendship is still there,
	 because when I have sex inside a friendship, it's a part of
	 the whole process of telling that person how much their
	 friendship means to me.  The act does not become something to
	 base the rest of the friendship on...it's purely an act of
	 expression and love.

	 Unfortunately, it's very easy, when there is some stronger
	 attraction than just horniness and lust, to use the act of
	 sex as a basis for other emotions and desires.....and that is
	 the situation I don't allow myself to be in.

	 

         	 kath

>    Cold casual sex has a habit of ruining
>    a friendship - because generally there's an underpinning element of
>    trust  that hasn't been developed yet if it happens too soon.  Warm
>    sex may lead to love.  

Hmmmm... I was able to do warm, casual sex once. And I didn't really try that
often, so my hit rate was ok.
	Mez

>    I don't know that there is any easy way to tell a friend that you find
>    his lovemaking woefully inadequate and that you would not want to
>    repeat the occurance. 

Why would you tell someone their lovemaking technique is "woefully 
inadequate" anyway?  Why not just tell them, kindly, that you are not
interested in doing it again?  (difficult, yes, but easier than both?)
I mean, 1) what is "woefully inadequate" to you might be fine for another
lover, so why get this person so upset, 2) even if they are really bad
it does them no good to phrase it like that, and 3) why don't you leave
it to someone who loves them and really does want to improve eachothers
sex life to help him on his or his sexual technique, rather than telling
the person how bad they are without being willing to help?

If anyone ever said I was "woefully inadequate", I would certainly not
count them as any friend of mine!

Seems like tasting someone's food and saying "This is disgusting, the
worst <whatever> I have ever tasted", rather than something like "I don't
personally care for this dish" or "I would suggest you try adding more
Basil next time."

D!

>3) why don't you leave
>it to someone who loves them and really does want to improve eachothers
>sex life to help him on his or his sexual technique, rather than telling
>the person how bad they are without being willing to help?

Or even someone who doesn't!
	Mez

    Um Mez, from my limited and quite long ago experiences.... it isn't
    always that easy to *talk* about what you've just done when you are
    young and inexperienced...
    
    In the past I would have said that sex is a good way to mess up
    a good friendship. That comes from things that I saw among friends
    and etc when I was in my early twenties. This may have had to do
    with the emotional maturity, intensity of the people involved. I
    don't really know.
    
    As for today, anything that I'd have to add would be only speculation.
    
    Bonnie

Oh yeah Bonnie, I was referring to contributing some sessions (you know, learn
from experience), not a critique with grade.
	Mez

    okay Mez, gotcha, ;-)...sort of, gee, I'd be glad to teach you
    a few things out of the goodness of my heart? :-)
    
    Bonnie

Has the world of relations between men and women broken down so far that we
compare lovemaking as inadequate, fair, good, A+ or whatever?

If this note is about friends and friendship(which I thought it was when I
read the beginings) it seems to me that a situation where two "friends"
find it mutually pleasant to make love at some point, maybe because of
a significant event, or some other reason that that would *NOT* be a
situation for grading the experience.

The idea of rating sounds more like a singles bar encounter, first night
situation not a thing done between supposed friends.

There were occasions when it was "right" in my life, sometimes it never 
happened again with that person but it was(IMHO) a part of the friendship 
expression.

and yes the friendship changes but it can go either way good or bad just as
any friendship grows or withers, it depends on both folks wanting to continue 
it. whether there was ever sex or not.
Amos

Guess so Amos...
	Mez

    For the record, I NEVER told this man how I felt about him as a lover.
    However, I had to deal with how he felt about *me* as a lover, and the
    fact that he wanted us to continue to have sex.
    
    Knowing that this was not something that I was interested in, but
    having to deal with the fact that he knew that I was interested in
    meeting *someone* to have a sexual relationship with... one can often put
    1 + 1 together.
                                          
    Perhaps it would be better if I rescinded the note, so that people
    won't get the wrong idea about incidents that happened 6-7 years ago
    when I was still in my teens.

>    Knowing that this was not something that I was interested in, but
>    having to deal with the fact that he knew that I was interested in
>    meeting *someone* to have a sexual relationship with... one can often put
>    1 + 1 together.
 
Well, if he put 1+1 together to get three, then it's not your fault.  I
assumed in your note that you meant *explicitly* tell him he sucked (so
to speak.)  If he inferred that you thought he sucked from the fact that
1) you didn't want to do it with *him* again, and that 2) you *did* want
someone to do it with, then he was making assumptions, and it's not
really your problem.  It seems to me there are lots of reasons why you
might want someone to sleep with but won't sleep with a particular
person, including but not limited to the fact that that person may be
(*for* *you*) a bad lover.  F'rinstance (as suggested by this string)
you may feel that having sex with him would ruin an otherwise good
relationship. Or you might feel that someone else would be better suited
to your tastes.

There is a big difference between telling someone one thing and knowing
that they will (incorrectly or correctly) infer something else, and actually
*telling* them that other thing.

Actually, I suppose if I knew someone would feel like I was calling them
a terrible lover if I just said I wasn't interested and gave no reason,
and it was true that I had a terrible experience, I would give them a
reason that would be more tactfully phrased than their own insecurities
would phrase it...something like "It wasn't as good as I had hoped" or
"Your style doesn't do much for me" or something a little gentler than
what they will assume are my reasons.

Anyway, I didn't mean to jump on you, just meant to point out that there
are bad ways and worse ways of "letting someone down."  (Unfortunately there
are never any "good" ways.  :-( )

D!

> I
>assumed in your note that you meant *explicitly* tell him he sucked (so
>to speak.)  

 I can only imagine this happening in my worst nightmare. (This is a problem
when you have recurring nightmares). :-)

 The male ego, aside from the bravado, is a very fragile thing. When you decide
to have sex with someone, you are allowing them to see a part of you that
most people don't get to see. (An assumption, but in my case very true. :-)
It's something you can't hide from. You're naked- both literally and 
figuratively. The masks are removed. It's just you and your partner. And if you
aren't "good," there can be no excuses. You can't hide from it. It's there,
like a shadow. And the only way to get rid of it is to turn off the light.

 I have to agree with D! who said "there are bad ways and worse ways." I don't
know if I could tell someone else they were terrible. Even with the most
sugarcoated method, the bottom line remains. "You don't make it for me."
Ouch.

 As a male, I frequently get caught in the trap of trying to be "all things to
all people," for lack of a better term. I don't know if women go through this
too. I'm not even sure how to explain it. But one aspect of this is you can
NEVER be called a lousy lover, or else it's permanent disgrace. It sounds so
funny as I write this. Like, what the? I don't even understand why I feel this
way- but I know alot of other guys feel the same way. The reason this is
so stressful is that you can't be a great lover for everybody- people like
different things. So what can be fireworks and launching rockets for somebody
could be as exciting as reading the label on a box of cereal to the next person.

 What does this all have to do with the base note? Got me- I just caught a
pain to the midsection when I read 'Ren's response.

 Turning circles-

 The Doctah

    re: .15 (Doc)
    
    At the risk of following the detour, I agree with the notion of the
    fragile male ego.  I suspect that my live-in friend Thak knows
    intuitively that "There are no frigid women, only inept men".  
    
    Steve

    IMHO, I don't know how people can separate technique from content.
    
    Sexuality is a form of communication, and it is only as good as
    what you have to say to that other person, and what they have to
    say to you. This is where emotional intimacy enters into it.
    
    To me, to consider it just a performance art debases it. Besides,
    the performance is endlessly subjective, and both are responsible
    for it's quality. This brings it back to communication.
    
    -roger
    
    
    

    
<    Sexuality is a form of communication, and it is only as good as
<    what you have to say to that other person, and what they have to
<    say to you. This is where emotional intimacy enters into it.
    
    I think this may hit at the heart of things. If you engage in
    intimate acts with someone whom you have ambivalent sexual feelings
    for it may well seem unsatisfactory. This might well be the case
    with a friend that perhaps pushed too hard to change the tone of the
    relationship. In any relationship the time has to be right for both
    parties.

    Perhaps we need new guidelines around sex and love. There seems to
    be no middle ground between "I love you only" and "I like you but".
    Perhaps Thak and the ice princess just need to talk to each other.
    liesl

    This topic seems to be going in several different directions..
    
    I'd like to see more discussion on the basic topic that Mark
    started on friends and intimate relations and how you keep the
    one while having the other..
    
    if we want to talk about how to 'let someone down gracefully'
    perhaps we could start another note? I think that both are
    topics worth discussing in their own right.
    
    thanks
    
    Bonnie

    
    	   I have, in the past, had sex with a few of my female
    	friends, and I'm happy to say that it never crushed the
    	friendship, neither did it ever become an integral part
    	of the on-going friendship.  (Remember, Doc, I'm talking
    	about the past here. ;^)
    
    	   I think the question of whether the sexual encounter(s)
    	change(s) the relationship has a lot to do with how strong
    	the friendship is to begin with.  If it has substance, then
    	the two friends will be able to overcome any personal conflicts
    	that arise as a result of the encounter(s).  If not, there is
    	little reason to invest the effort to save the friendship.
    
    	   Personally, I have made it something of a code of ethics
    	for me that I avoid sexual encounters (with friends and
    	strangers) for the very reason that it can be detrimental
    	to developing friendships.  Anyone can be an easy lay, but
    	it takes a special person to be a friend.  I value friendship
    	more than sex.  Much more, in fact.
    
    	   One of the tough questions to answer after the first
    	sexual encounter is, "should we continue?"  If I had a dime
    	for every time I've heard a woman say, "Let's go back to just
    	being friends," I could probably afford a Coke (except in 
    	hotels, where the Coke machines need $1.25).  In every case, 
    	it came more as a releif to me than a disappointment.  
    
    	   Of course, that is, as I mentioned before, all in the 
    	past.  Fairly recently one of my long time friends became
    	my lover/SO.  However, the introduction of sex has not
    	crippled the friendship we had.  Rather, it has helped move
    	it toward the love we now share; a love more real and 
    	fulfilling than any I have known before primarily 
    	because we were friends first.
    
    	   So, as I said before, the effect sex has upon a relationship
    	will be completely dependent on the people involved and the
    	depth of the friendship before the sexual episode.  
    
    	   At least, that's the way I see it.
    
    	- Greg

    nit
    
    actually Greg, I don't think you've mentioned your new SO
    in *this* file before. :-)
    
    Bonnie

    re: .21 (Bonnie)
    
    	   Haven't I?  Must be a gross oversight on my part.
    
    	   Hey folks, for the record the Chainsaw is in love now.
    
    	   There... oversight corrected. ;^)
    
    	- Greg

>    To me, to consider it just a performance art debases it.

 Absolutely. (I agree with Roger? Far out. :-)

>    Perhaps we need new guidelines around sex and love. There seems to
>    be no middle ground between "I love you only" and "I like you but".
>    Perhaps Thak and the ice princess just need to talk to each other.
 
 Grunt of approval. (Thakspeak)

>(Remember, Doc, I'm talking about the past here. ;^)

 Snicker.

>If I had a dime
>    	for every time I've heard a woman say, "Let's go back to just
>    	being friends," I could probably afford a Coke 

 For some reason, that really has me laughing this morning. Happened that 
often, huh?

>    	   So, as I said before, the effect sex has upon a relationship
>    	will be completely dependent on the people involved and the
>    	depth of the friendship before the sexual episode.  

 Boy, that sounds sensible.

 The Doctah

    [I've been trying to answer the base-note, for a couple days now, but
    the flowcharting is killing me...and I'm not dealing with a large
    number of occurences, either...]
    
    First, 'just' friends is one of those phrases that sets off so many
    klaxons in my head that thinking becomes an Herculean effort.  My
    friends are 'just' anything other than themselves.
    
    The assumption is that sexual intimacy _must_ change the friendship
    somehow and I do not agree.  The assumption is also that sexual
    intimacy denotes something more than a friend...another assumption that
    falls wide.
    
    Of the friends that I have had sex with, only one springs to mind as a
    'bad choice' in retrospect.  Not because of any lack of physical
    satisfaction, but because he was unable to assimilate it. In the
    aftermath, he came to realise that [for him] 'friends didn't.'  In the
    aftermath, I began to look much more carefully at the motives and mores
    of others.
    
    Then there were the occasions where the intimacy happened relatively
    early in the relationship and then ended -- for any number of reasons
    -- and the friendships were not affected.  I can state that the first
    time I look at someone with whom I've been sexually intimate and see
    an intimacy with someone else, that I feel I a small tug in my gut.
    
    Many of the responses here seem to be dealing with 'unsynchronised
    passion.'  Well, heck...that happens in 'serious, long-term, committed,
    monogamous...relationships' too.  We all change, and sometimes we
    change back.
    
    Sometimes the magic doesn't work and we lose out.
    
    A pity, that...but it's life.
    
       Ann
    
    
    
    

    	RE: .22  Greg
    
    	> Hey folks, for the record the Chainsaw is in love now.
    
    	Great time of year to fall in love, don't you think?  :-)
    
    	(Yeah, for the record, I'm newly in love, too!)
    
    						   Suzanne ...
    

    re .25
    
    All the talk of being in love leaves me so envious... Sob sob sob. 

    Karen,
    
    it will work out, HOnest!
    
    hugs
    
    Bonnie

    
    	If I had a dime for every instance I've seen two friends become 
    	sexually involved and when the passion de-ignites transform into
    	virtual strangers, I could buy tampons for every woman in North 
    	America for an entire year.
    
    	Carla
    

re: .28

 Yikes! How unfortunate. It's a wonder it happens at all, with those kinds of 
results.

 The Doctah

    
    	May I also add that it's only in heterosexual circumstances
    	where I've witnessed such results.
    
    	Carla
    

    This quote is from a book called "When Lovers Are Friends" by Merle
    Shain.  I think it's interesting, and it reminded me of this topic
    (or rather this topic reminded me of *it* since I read it a few
    years ago).
    
    "A girl once happened to say to me that she 'didn't sleep with her
    friends,' and it struck me how odd a turn of phrase that was.  One
    had to wonder if that meant that she considered the people with
    whom she did go to bed to be her enemies."
    
    Lorna