Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    [Deja vu! once more with feeling....]
    
    "Can men and women be true friends without any type of sexual
    attraction between them?"
    
    Sure they can.  I've had male friends where sexual attraction wasn't a
    factor -- not a serious one anyway. With some it became/becomes an
    issue -- and not always just _his_ problem either, I'm as human as
    anyone...
    
    One could further ask if _any_ two people can be true friends without
    any type of sexual attraction between them.
    
    I tend to think that the answer lies somewhere in the vicity of:
    
    'Yes, people _can_ be and frequently are; but it's not reliable.  As
    with everything you just have to take your chances...'
    
    Friendships ebb and flow in the journey to maturity.
    
    I honestly don't think that there are any tried and true methods of
    keeping sex out of one's relationships.  Saying 'just friends' up front
    doesn't guarantee anything any more than saying 'I won't grow up' kept
    me 9 years old.
    
      Ann

    
    i like to think that part of the fun of being friends with members of
    the opposite sex (or whichever sex(s) one happens to find attractive)
    is exactly that little spark of sexual tension. i mean, isn't it neat 
    that one can be friends *and* acknowlege one's sexuality?
    
    that being said, i do know what the basenoter is talking about, having
    experienced the discomfort at close range and from both sides of the
    fence. but perhaps it's important to note that the discomfort usually
    comes from lack of communication or lack of mutual respect or
    mis-understanding of goals, intenions, commitments or even down-right
    coercion and manipulation. to put it extremely simplistically, if one
    makes one's friend uncomfortable sexually, one is not being a good
    friend.
     

    Yes, I think men and women can be friends.  I think that a couple
    of the key ingredients are time and some sort of shared interest.
    
    For this semi-unreconstructed-latter-half-of-the-20th-century-type
    male, time is required to get past the impact of the awareness
    of sexual difference.  There's a part of me that I call "Thak"
    or "Og" after the Gary Larson cartoon prehistoric men.  This is
    the part of me that kind of automatically reacts with "Ug. . .me 
    male. . .you female. . .me want" upon encountering the opposite
    sex.  Now, a woman matching my ideals of attractiveness is liable
    to elicit somewhat more or that reaction and is likely to prompt
    me to murmer in my suave, sophisticated manner things like, "Uh,
    well, um, gee Mary Sue. . .uh, like, I mean, uh. . .like, do you,
    um,. . .I mean, uh,. . .yawannamaybegotoamovieorsumpthin'?"  
    
    But the fact remains that even if I consider Dick Butkus a more 
    attractive candidate for Playmate of the Month than the woman I've 
    just met, I have to admit that there is still some primitive grunt 
    from Thak.  I figure it's some stupid species survival mechanism
    or something.  The point is it's *there* and this mechanism is
    what gets in the way of me having a non-sexual friendship with a 
    woman.
    
    Fortunately time seems to have a way of quieting Thak.  I suspect
    that being a lower sort of species, his attention tends to wander 
    after a while; I think he goes of to slay hairy mammouths or some
    such thing.  In any case, after a little while, the rest of me 
    starts to look for the person inside the body.  
    
    When I find that this person shares an interest of mine, I've found
    that friendship begins.  For example, some of my best friends over 
    time have been women with whom I've played music.  Carol, a key-
    boardist I worked with a while ago was really there for me as a
    friend when I needed one in a time of great difficulty.  Ditto
    Meg, the lead singer who cared enough about me as a friend to
    give me a message I didn't want to hear in a voice that forced
    me to listen (woulda done my old drill instructor proud).  
    
    Both of these people are very attractive women and it's true
    that Thak still bumbles around in my subterranean consciousness 
    aware of their "differences".  But in spending many hours with
    them practicing, recording, and playing live gigs, I learned that 
    there was much more to Carol and Meg than Thak realized.  Because
    you see although Thak is primitive and unteachable, Steve isn't
    (well, I'm not unteachable, anyway).  So as Thak finally wanders
    off to swat at pterodactyls or whatever, Steve is freed up to 
    learn about women as people and, utimately, friends.
    
    Ug.
    
    Steve
    

    i tend to agree with jwhite - the sexual aspect is *part* of the
    friendship.  i know it comes up with *all* my friendships, one way or
    another, sooner or later, regardless of the sex of the person.
    
    and i don't really consider the friendship *solid* until i've dealt
    with the sexual aspect of it.
    
    and yes, the relationships flow - one of my old lovers and i toy VERY
    seriously with the idea of getting romantically involved .. oh i'd say
    a couple times a year.
    
    can people [of whichever appropriate sex(es)] be friends w/o having
    sex?  yes.  without ever considering it?  not *this* person.  guess my
    horomones are still running amok...
    
    lt

    Here's a case where it's possible to be just friends while there is a
    sexual attaction, even a mutual and acknowledged attaction.
    
    At least one of the "pair of the first paragraph" is firmly attached to
    someone else. The other one of the pair respects this.
    
    This does happen. I'm not claiming it's common. I'll try to think of
    other circumstances, but it could be tricky.
    
    	Andrew (who finds it hard to note on topics like this without
    implying that we must be talking about hetrosexual attaction).

    
    	Yes, they sure can be friends. I have been introduced for
    	years as "one of the guys" by my male co-workers and friends.
    	I find this extremely wonderful. We work together when
    	we need to. We stick together through thin and for thick.
    	They are the greatest! I am comfortable with them. I trust
    	them. They are comfortable with me too.

    Another case where friendship is definitely possible - with an ex. If
    you're both comfortable with the fact that you're no longer a couple
    (and you don't need to have split up amicably, it can become the case
    later) then you can be great friends.
    
    	Andrew.
    
    ps this is my first note from my home terminal - maybe I'll become less
    "read only" in future.

 Re: Steve

 Yeah- right on. The sex circuit is hardwired. Tough to fix, even with 
microcode. :-) Fortunately, the operating system deals with this in a fairly
efficient manner.

 Depending on the level of sexual attraction between a female friend and I,
being friends without thinking at least passingly of a sexual interlude can be
varyingly difficult. With some women, it is not terribly difficult to be 
platonic. With others, it can consume considerable energy.

 I agree with Lee. It is very possible for men and women to be friends without
having sex together. It is nearly impossible for me not to at least think about 
it. Hormone wrestling. :-)

 The Doctah

For me, and I suspect for a lot of other people, there is always an aspect
of sexuality in every relationship I have with another person (regardless of
gender.)  It varies in degree, but, like Lee, I can't remember anyone I have
been friends with that the thought of having sex with them didn't at least
once pop into my mind.  this doesn't mean I view them as a sex object, or will
even pursue them as a partner, just that I evaluate everyone I meet on
many variables, and sexual attraction is one of them.

The best relationships I have had, both sexual and "platonic" were with those
people with whom I could be very frank about my feelings for and about them,
including sexual feelings.  I think the sexual undercurrent existing in
all (of mine, anyway) relationships is a vital part of that relationship,
and I try to incorporate and cherish that part as much as I do other parts.

It's true, if someone has very different sexual feelings for you than you
have for themit can be difficult.  But that is just like any other 
incompatability in a relationship - sometimes it can be worked out, sometimes
it can't.  

But to answer the question, no, I don't think you can be friends with anyone
without having some aspect of sexuality somewhere in the relationship.  On
the other hand, I don't think that all relationships have to be sexual in
nature, or that you can't be very good platonic friends with someone even
with the undercurrent of sexuality.

And I think that is a good thing.

D!

    
    I have one category of relationships in which sex is out of the
    question, and those are men who come closest to matching my ideal of a
    relative, be it brother, father, uncle. At that point, sex becomes 100%
    INCONCEIVABLE. Or at best, laughable. And I cherish the relatationships
    I have which are like that, they seem far more durable.

	Though I think that this has been discussed before (I am not
	sure where!) this is an interesting issue.

	What level of friendship are you asking about?  There are a
	number of people whom I consider "friends" (female and male)
	but there is no sexual attraction involved.  While I have 
	other friends where there is an issue of attraction but not
	"want to go to bed with" attraction.

	For me, a trully deep and trusting relationship (friendship)
	includes sharing happiness and sadness in depth with the other
	person.  The term "I feel for you" in its truest sense comes
	to mind (change the for to with and it works even better).

	When this depth is reached sometimes it gets very difficult
	to keep "sex" out of the relationship.  Of course this is 
	also dependent on what one means by "sex" - the act or the
	feeling or both?

	_peggy

		(-)
		 |
			To know the me in you and the you in
			me is to recognize the Goddess in all.

    You know I grew up in the flower child era of the 60's and therefore
    am a total believer in equality. That was all we talked about in
    school because at the time people were being hosed, beaten and crewed
    on by dogs for daring to think that black (negros at the time) people
    should have the same rights as everyone else. Well one of the things
    that era tought me (it certianly wasn't how to spell!) was that
    equality couldn't be legislated, it has to be believed. One of the
    things that helps is by honestly saying that we can be friends.
    I remember people who didn't have a problem with Black people voting
    but they couldn't bring themselves to talking to them because in
    their hearts they still thought of black people as inferior. Similarly
    if I can't talk to a woman comfortably I won't be treating her as
    a equal. So to summarize, (you will be given a quiz on this) its
    an equality thing with me. 
                
    
    Just an old 60's radical,
    
    Fred Mudgett

    
    	Well Fred. I'm with you. I remember that era well and all
    	the stuff that was going on. It was ENLIGHTENING to say
    	the least. And if I tend to overlean in any direction, it
    	is in the direction of being absolutely blind to differences
    	in an effort to be fair, equal, etc and hope that I am treated
    	in kind by others. Idealistic huh? It's ok. Little surges of
    	reality keep washing over the beach here and they smooth that
    	out day to day.
    							kim
    		(another 60's radical but be careful with that "old" stuff?)
    		(i'm getting better, like fine wine?)
     

    I believe it's possible to have persons to whom you are sexually
    attracted to as friends (I'm trying to be non-gender specific *:)).
    I don't think it works if you deny the attraction and try to pretend
    it doesn't exist.

    I have some problems with the "I like you but" scenario though. I've
    said it myself and yet it seems somehow like a put down, as if the
    person weren't quite good enough. I guess it just depends on the
    level of friendship and the level of attraction and no set rule will
    ever really apply in all (or even most) cases. liesl

    Steve's note was at once highly entertaining to read ("Thak"
    indeed) and just about right on as far as the "problem" goes.
    What he said pretty much goes for me as well.
    
    --- jerry

    Some of my best friends are women to whom I am sexually 
    attracted. And some are women to whom I am *not* so
    attracted. If you are, you deal with it honestly. If you
    really are friends, your friendship will survive a polite 
    "No, thank you." It might even survive a "Sure !" :-)
    
    Dana

    Re .4, that's really cute Thak! :-)  (I mean *Steve*)
    
    I think men and women can be friends.  I don't think sex always
    enters into it, and I don't think friendships are always ruined
    if it does.   As Liesl said, there are no set rules.
    
    I'm a little surprised by people saying that at least the thought
    of sex enters into every close friendship, regardless of gender.
     I really don't think that's true for me.  Most of my female friends
    and I are too busy talking about our exploits with men to be attracted
    to each other. :-)  Also, I know I can feel very close friendship
    for a man without having any desire whatsoever to have sex with
    them.  On the other hand, I can be friends with men I find very
    attractive, as well.
    
    Three of my closest male friends were men that I got to know because
    they were attracted to me.  I wasn't romantically interested in
    them but as they tried to get to know me, I realized that I really
    liked them a lot as people.  In two of the cases, we became very
    close friends for a time, and I was very fond of these people and
    valued their friendship.  But, eventually they sort of drifted off.
     It seemed to me that as they finally accepted the fact that I was
    never going to be interested in anything more than being good friends,
    they sort of slipped out of my life.  I feel a little bit sad about
    this.  I considered them to be among my most valued friends, and
    I sometimes have felt that they thought of me as a failed romance.
     But, at the time they really seemed like friends to me.  I still
    find this confusing and don't really know why it all happened the
    way it did.  The third of these people is still currently one of
    my best friends.
    
    Of course, I've had a lot of other male friends, too, but these
    were the most intense.
    
    Lorna
    

    I have had a friendship ruined by the situation that
    he wanted to have a sexual relationship and I didn't.
    
    We were part of a group who spent a lot of time together,
    sometimes slept at each other's houses if a party lasted
    too late, or too much alcohol had been consumed.  We hugged
    when we met and gave each other back rubs.
    
    This friend, I'll call Q, was also a peer at work, and 
    married to another friend.  As the marriage faded, both
    were dating, and Q asked me.  Since I had no such feeling
    for him, and was in love with someone else, I said "No,
    thank you".  He took it nicely, and we continued to be
    friends, but 9 months later, he asked again. He kept
    asking at intervals, especially after his marriage broke
    up.  Each time I thought the subject was closed, but it
    wasn't.
    
    I started avoiding him at parties, and skipped the 
    parties that he hosted.  Then he started asking me at
    work, when we were having lunch after a business 
    meeting.  He mailed love letters to me.  He would drop
    in at my house to talk about how lonely he was.  Somewhere 
    along the way I started to be really afraid of him. 
    Some of my fear no doubt came from my own experiences 
    of sexual assault from men I had reason to trust.
    
    He has since met and married another woman, but I can
    never be a close friend again, or hug when we meet.  
    He ignored my feedback that I was really upset that
    he wouldn't take no for an answer; he was only 
    concerned with his own needs and feelings.
    
    Pat
      

    
    	I would have to say that at this point in my life 
    	most of my friends are male.  I have a couple close
    	girlfriends but most of my casual friends are male.
    	I have three that are very special.  One is a man
    	I dated for a short time a few summers ago.  We have
    	a wonderful friendship and even though every once
    	in a while I miss the intimacy of our romance
    	I feel our friendship is better for us rather than a romantic
    	relationship would be.
    
    	The second is someone I have not known for very long.
    	2-3 years.  But he knows me inside and out.  Knows
    	me better than I know myself.  There is an attraction
    	between the two of us.  I am engaged to a wonderful man
    	and my friend is very happy because I am happy.  Despite
    	the attraction, we are very close.  And I value that very
    	much.
    
    	The third is a strange relationship.  A man I've known for
    	6 years.  There has always been "something" between us.  I'm
    	not sure that it's a sexual attraction as much as maybe a
    	"spiritual" one (for lack of a better word).  He had gone
    	through a rough period a few years back where he started 
    	hanging around with a rough crowd and started to act like
    	someone I knew he was not.  Although when we were together,
    	he let his "macho, tough-guy image" down.  Although we don't
    	say it, we value each other very much and I don't ever want
    	to lose that.
    
    		JJ
    
    	

    Can woman and men be friends?  
    
    Well, after reading all these replies I just had to responed.  I
    grew up in a all-boy neighborhood, so I learned how to fish, hunt
    and pull chevy engines out of cars before I was 15 years old.  I
    
    still have quite a few good male friends (as well as female), but
    we are all kinda sister/brother relationship.  Some of the 'guys'
    are married, some aren't.  Some have gone their own ways, but I
    still see them on holiday's or special occasions, or when fishing
    season opens we still all go out on the lake together.  The only
    time that my male friends shook up my life was when they all attended
    my wedding and my husband more or less didn't understand the
    relationship I had with all these guys'.  Once I explained it to
    my husband he fully understood and now we all 'hang-out' together.
    
    Having friends in general (male or female) is what life is all about!