Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    FYI, this is also discussed in womannotes-V1:
    
    topic 237 - women's clothing
    topic 568 - how do you size up women?
    
    -Jody

    Are we assuming all the buyers are vain females?  That's quite an
    answer - "Buyers don't want standardization".  To hell with the
    female customer, huh?   Let's give they buyers what they want.
    
    Unfortunately, in my cynicism, I believe that's true.  But the reason
    buyers don't want standard sizing isn't because all buyers are females
    who want to eat like horses and tell their friends they wear size 5s.
    
    Vagueness and confusion is part and parcel in the sale of "fashion",
    (as opposed to the sale of "clothing").  The very concept of "fashion"
    is somewhat vague, doesn't really stand up to black and white
    scrutinization and certainly would cease to exist if it were forced
    into "standardization".  What good is it for the "fashion" industry
    if a woman finds that a size 8 A line skirt is just perfect for her?
    Where does that leave all the other designers who want her money
    too?  Unless they make a size 8 A line skirt just like everyone
    else, they're lost.  But if they can create customers who resign
    themselves to accepting this vagueness, they can sell them a size
    8 skirt they'll be willing to diet into or compensate for some other
    way, rather than rejecting the sale outright.  If only one manufacturer
    were so vague, they wouldn't get any sales.  But if they're ALL
    vague, sheer tedium and hopelessness can make a woman buy what she
    wouldn't otherwise.
    
    Hense the vagueness around hemlines, around what's "in" and what's
    "out", (the very concept of "in" and "out"),  and certainly around
    sizing so that women must "shop" as an actual time-consuming activity 
    rather than just "go buy a skirt" and that's that.
    
    The "clothing" industry, (which for women is miniscule), is pretty
    much standard in sizing.  The "fashion" industry, (which is huge,
    and which we are supposed to confuse with "clothing"), is the shell
    game.
    
    And one last fact, (I read this from someone who works in "fashion")-
    when a manufacturer of a fashion item gets a call for some size
    10s and they are out of them, they can just rip out the labels of
    size 8s and 12s and make the sale!  They would have lost the sale
    if the store said, "Hey, wait a minute - these aren't 10s!"  But
    the stores can't, (cuz who knows what a real size 10 is, anyway?!),
    and don't really want to because this way, women have to spend more
    time in the store.  And isn't that a major goal of any store???  To
    hell with the woman customer.  Let her shop till she drops!

    
    I went shopping on Saturday with a friend who takes a 3/4. We were
    trying on evening wear, and one of the saleswomen saw the dress that we
    were going to try on and said; "I'm a 3/4 - this dress runs small in
    the bust. Try a 7/8." So, my friend tried a 7/8. It was a bit small in
    the bust and fit the rest of her. 'ren the pear takes at 12-14 dress.
    But not wanting to have it fall off, I tried a 10. Fit perfectly.
    
    I then fell in love with another dress, again a 12, but wanted it in
    another color. We went to a sister store that only had it in a 10. The
    10 looked better than the 12. Now, I'll admit that I've lost a lot of
    weight, but I do NOT have a size 10 derriere. 
    
    On the other hand, being able to say "oh yes, its a size 10" does have
    a certain ring to it that I like.
    
    hee hee

    Sizing also has to do with the "label" you are buying.  I wear from
    size 8 to size 16 depending on where I buy my clothes, the price of the
    clothes, and the cut of the clothes.
    
    I read an article not too long ago that compared sizing of, say 12, to
    what the same measurements would have been awarded in the 50's and it 
    was a 14.  I always end up starting with a 12 and going up or down from
    there.
    
    This is why I shop for clothes once a year.  Some years I add to my
    summer wardrobe other years it is the winter wardrobe that gets
    updated. 
    
    I find shopping tedious because If you see a skirt you like, there are
    no blouses your size and God help you if you purchase the skirt
    thinking that you will match it up later.  Unless, of course, black or
    what will do.
    
    Also any color that I even remotely like to wear is not "in" this year
    so I have a small selection to choose from.  Example:  I love yellow -
    but if I wear it, people inquire about my health because I have such
    sallow skin - so the years that pale pastels are "what everyone is
    wearing my dear" are the years I skip the annual hassle!
    
    This leaves out the fact that invariable whatever size I am for THAT
    particular store - they are out of it and when you place an order - 2
    months later they call to say none could be found......
    
    

    Actually, the situation is even better? than different lines,
    manufacturers, etc.  Different pieces (eg. two identical skirts) can
    actually be different measurements also.   The reason - per a friend
    who used to be a sewer in a factory - is that, while all of the pieces
    of the material are cut the same size, when the person is sewing them,
    the machine sews the seam, *then* trims off material an exact distance
    from the seam (how did you think they all get so even?).  So if the
    person is being slow and careful, they will sew closer to the edge, and
    only a small amount will be trimmed off - but these people are usually
    paid *by the piece* and are therefore in a hurry, and the amount of
    material trimmed off can vary radically from item to item.  
    
    So...  if you see something you like, trying on more than one identical
    in the same size will sometimes you will find one that fits you better
    than others. 
    
    BTW, the reason some of the more expensive lines tend to "fit truer" is
    that they pay the sewers better, who will therefore go slower and be 
    more careful!
    
    Linda

   As long as I can find my size, I usually don't have a problem finding
    clothes that fit.  I take a size 3 dress in juniors, or a size 2
    petite in what is usually called "better dresses" or misses sizes.
     Usually I know that if I can find a size 3, the dress will fit.
     The trick is finding a size 3.  Most stores seem to only get in
    one size 3 of each style and if you don't buy it when you see it,
    it will be gone.  Saturday was an exception, tho, because I tried
    on a size 3 dress that hung on me like a tent.  I swear it was at
    least a 7 marked wrong.  I should have complained about it but I
    didn't feel up to it, besides I had no intention of buying the dress
    anyway.  I was just trying it on for fun, because I'm one of those
    people who thinks clothes shopping is fun and relaxing.
    
    The one thing that annoys me about clothes sizes is "one size fits
    all."  No "one size fits all" garment was ever small enough to fit
    a size 3!!!!  so they do *not* fit all!  In fact, most clothes that
    come in a Small, Medium or Large do not fit me either.  The Small
    is usually a 7, I'd say.
    
    Jeans are the most trouble.  In some brands size 3 fits perfectly
    and size 5 hangs like a sack.  In some brands I can't even zip the
    size 3 and size 5 fits perfectly.
    
    Skirt waists can be very different, too.  Sometimes I can't button
    the size 3, and other times the size 5 droops to halfway down my
    legs.
    
    But, I just look at it as all part of the fun of shopping.  If I
    had a few thousand to spend on clothes, I could easily put up with
    the hassle!
    
    Lorna
    

    re: .6
    
    I agree with you too.  I also wear size 0-2 petites, or a size 3 in the
    juniors.  Trying to find these size clothes is a joke, most of them are
    the ugliest colors, styles, etc. that I tend to think the designers are
    making them just to say they make small sizes.
    
    I also love going into the Petite speciality stores for women 5'4" and
    under, finding something that actually fits, but not being able to
    afford to buy it because it's so expensive.  I've never been able to
    figure out why the clothes are so outrageously priced!!!!  
    
    What really irritates me the most is finding something that fits, but
    it is so long, it drags on the floor.  I'm just under 5', which means
    that when I find something that fits, I have to go home and take about
    1' of material off of what I just bought.  If I got a penny for 
    everything I've had to re-hem, I wouldn't be working, that's for sure.
    
    I'm under the impression the word "Petite" stands for a woman that's
    5'6" or above and weighs in about 135 lbs. who likes to tell all her 
    friends that she wears a size 3 Petite!!   
    
    Being small definitely has it's disadvantages, it really does....
    
    
    Donalea
    

.7>    I'm under the impression the word "Petite" stands for a woman that's
.7>    5'6" or above and weighs in about 135 lbs. who likes to tell all her 
.7>    friends that she wears a size 3 Petite!!   
    
    I'm 5'7" and near 150 lbs...and simply can not find clothes
    to fit me.  (As my taste in clothes gets more expensive, I
    get progressively more irritated at spending money on clothes
    that don't fit.  I'm going to take up sewing.)  But maybe I
    should try shopping in the Petite stores first...  ;) :) 

    -- Linda

    
    	And for all that, we get to pay WHAT???
    
    	I was just reading this note and talking to myself about
    	how for years I have been wearing PANTS and I tend to
    	purchase my shirts from the boys department. The reason
    	why I do this is because I found myself faced with clothes
    	that were not well stitched, made of flimsy material, and
    	costing twice what I could buy mens shirts for. Besides,
    	my arms apparently are longer than the womens clothing designers
    	believe they should be (no I do NOT resemble a gorilla *8^}  )
    	
    	I came across a cartoon by Cathy Guisewite in the paper the
    	other day and just HAD to cut it out. She goes into a clothing
    	store and she selects a shirt and comments "This blouse is $150??"
    	The clerk replies "Isn't it fun?! It's styled, sized and tailored
    	exactly like a mans's shirt!". Cathy says "The exact same shirt
    	in the men's department is only $80." The clerk confirms this.
    	Cathy then challenges "How can you charge $70 more for the
    	exact same shirt?!" The clerk says "We're trying to keep up
    	with the lingere department where you buy $6 men's underwear
    	for $37.50."
    
    
    	arrrgghh!

Hey, I have a question: Are the shirt sleeves on women's clothes long enough
for anyone? Or are they always either too long or too short.
	Mez

    No, they're NEVER too short, Mez!  Trust me. :-}
    
    						=maggie 

    I guess my arms must be average in length because most blouses and
    sweaters seem to be about right for my arm length.  I occassionally get
    that ape-like look on a blouse or sweater (arms hang down below my
    knees) but that happens very rarely.
    
    Nanci

    This appears to be the one place that I am 'average'.  All my life
    I have been able to 'walk into' clothes that fit.  Currently a 10,
    almost any 10 (used to be an 8, but that changed a coupla years
    back).
    
    But why are nightgown sleeves always shorter than dress sleeves?
    
    Alison

	 You'll rarely ever see me wearing a shirt with buttoned cuffs
	 cuz they are always too short on me.


	 I make a lot of my clothes.  I find it enjoyable, easy, and
	 fun.  I can adapt patterns to fit ME perfectly, and don't
	 have to worry about wrong sizes.

	 But, alas...even patterns differ in size.  If I bought the
	 size pattern that McCalls says I should (ie, by measurements)
	 it would look like a potato sack on me.......yet, when I buy
	 French patterns (Burda, New Look, etc) I have to buy BIGGER
	 than the size it says because otherwise I would never fit
	 into it.....

	 I'm pretty thankful that a lot of the pattern companies are
	 now going to multi-size patterns in one package.  Whew!


	 Next project.......some wool skirts and jackets!  Lined!
	 Cheap, beautiful and they actually fit like a glove!  ;-)

	 kat

    
    
    As the mom of a 10 year old boy, I can tell you that boys
    clothing is no bargain either.  His pants cost at least as
    much as mine, and are more expensive than his dad's.  And
    kids clothing doesn't go on sale as often or as highly re-
    duced as adult clothing.  And fit? That's a joke!  Pants
    are either too long or too big around...
    
    Sleeve length on women's clothing?  Simple.  Shirt sleeves
    are always too long; sweater sleeves are invariably too
    short.
    
    Now the real question is:  why do clothing manufacturers
    think a woman with 40 inch hips has ankles with a 4 inch
    circumference?

    Sleeve lengths on me are usually either 1) too short, or 2)
    just fine, except that the *shoulder* seam needs to be about
    two inches farther out.  Fortunately, in the last decade
    blouses with padded shoulders are "in," so I just buy one of
    these so-called oversized blouses, take out the shoulder
    pads, and presto!, a blouse that (mostly) fits. 

    Seriously, I often go to the men's department and buy a size
    15-32/33, tapered fit.  These invariably fit through
    shoulders, aren't too snug through the bust, and the style is
    acceptable for much of what I wear (suits).  When I want a
    silky, feminine blouse...that takes longer. 

    -- Linda

<	 You'll rarely ever see me wearing a shirt with buttoned cuffs
<	 cuz they are always too short on me.

    
    I'm with you Kat. It's hard to find shirts with long enough sleeves.
    I usually wear cotton and sleeves that fit when I buy are usually
    too short after the first wash. Why don't they pre-shrink
    ANYTHING!!!

    And then there's pants! I'm only 5'4", if I can't find a petite in
    my size I have to cut off several inches of pants leg. Maybe I need
    to have you give me sewing lessons. :*) liesl

    p.s. I love those black stretch leggings, they fit, they're
    comfortable and they move when you do. Now if I could just get folks
    to stop asking if I forgot to put on my skirt when I wear them as
    pants. :*)

    
    	Ok. Broad shoulders is pretty good here. I got those too.
    	I did cave in and purchase a really nice looking shirt
    	like you were just mentioning this weekend (with the pads
    	and stuff) and took the thing home and washed it in cold
    	water to get the store smell out of it before I wore it
    	to work.  IT SHRANK!!!! another arrrggh! I suppose it should
    	have been dry cleaned but there was no indication on it
    	to this effect. (I thought that was a rule. Besides, mens	
    	permanent press, tailored, European cut shirts don't do
    	that to me). Anyhow, where the darn thing shrank was through
    	the sleeves and shoulders. Taking it back...then back to
    	the mens department yet. What do ya think? Bad karma?
    
    							kim *8^}
    

    re .15, Deb-
    
    > Now the real question is:  why do clothing manufacturers
    > think a woman with 40 inch hips has ankles with a 4 inch
    > circumference?
      
    I'm having a hard time picturing this...how does one get one's
    foot through the ankle opening without ripping it open?  Surely
    you don't buy it ripped all to shreds?
    
    [this is meant in commiseration, Deb, I am *not* teasing.]
    
    DougO

	 I rarely ever buy pants either........(jeans are a b!tch to
	 buy).

	 I'm 5'8".....that makes me taller than average, and shorter
	 than tall.  I can't even buy the leggings that liesl wears
	 without having them be over my ankles!!!

	 I make anything like that....and jeans...well, when I wear
	 jeans, I slurge and get a really good pair that fit good.

	 And Levi's for Women are NOT made for women!  ;-) (At least
	 not any woman I've see...well, Carol Champion fits quite
	 nicely into them.)

	 :-)

	 kath

    Well, ok, Doug....I exagerated a little.  But really, the current 
    style is tapered legs.  And they really taper at the ankle.  Some
    pants even have pleats or darts at the ankle, to taper MORE!  Of
    course some also have zippers at the ankle.  
    
    I'll bet now that I've mentioned it, you'll start to notice what
    I mean (if you haven't noticed before).
    
    Actually, getting the pants on isn't a real problem.  Taking them
    of is a struggle though!
    
    Deb
    

    Another long-armed woman speaks up.  My wrists almost always show below
    the cuff of any given woman's shirt/blouse.  Not so with men's.
    
    And if you're looking for preshrunk which you can try on before you
    purchase, go to my favorite glamour haven, the Salvay Armay....very
    inexpensive, and often surprisingly good quality if you actually LOOK
    for it.
    
    -Jody
    

    Re Levis for Woman, I always wondered about this one, at 5'10" I fit 
    perfectly into size 10 Levis for woman. Which leads me to wonder how 
    "average" woman ever find jeans. 
    
    As for those of us with arms down to our toes...I found at least one
    catalog company, Royal Silk Co., that cuts it's blouses very
    generously, in length and sleeves. 
    
    Gail

    Recently I've lost about 18 pounds and have about 8 more that
    I am working on. Most of my clothes now swim on me...so I am
    looking to buy some new things...I got an Avon catalogue that
    had come to my daughter and used a tape measure to figure out
    what size I am now...
    
    well my bust size was 2 above my hips (tho both are the same
    dimensions) and my waist was 6 above my hips...I'm also working
    out to help the disparity, but I'm not looking forward to going
    back into the stores even if I could *afford* to replace my
    entire wardrobe...
    
    any hints as to how to make my current clothes look better on
    a minimal budget (I don't sew - not lack of skill or interest,
    lack of time).
    
    Bonnie

    re .24
    Bonnie,
    
    The Limited "Express" store has some great knits that work well during
    "between" sizes.  (I'm sure Marshall's, T.J.'s, etc. carry knits as
    well.)  With a couple of fun accessories (large scarves, belts,
    necklaces), you can extend your wardrobe.
    
    These clothes are great on the mornings when the thought of ironing
    just doesn't fit the schedule.
    
    Judi
    

    re .24
    depending on how "not perfectly" they fit,
    
    belts
    slouch hats (makes the "loose look" look intentional)
    eccentric accessories that focus attention
    
    -Jody
    

Let's hear it for "high waters"!  You know what I mean, those pants that don't 
even make it to your ankles?  Those pants that make it look like you're 
auditioning for "Revenge of the Nerds, Part IV"?


My solution for too-long arms (or is it too-short sleeves?) is simple: roll them
up (the sleeves, that is).

Sue