Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    Well...I'd say he is, but no more so than Robert Heinlein (RIP).
    These authors tend to use women as props, and supporters for their
    male protagonists (even them women are their protagonists, they
    have a staunch supportive man who seems to save the day for them,
    so they're "weaker" protagonists).  Authors such as this also tend
    to use lots of sex scenes.  For even more serious weak-females, see
    Norman's "Gor" series.  And for the flip side of the coin -
    resourceful, intelligent women being misunderstood, mistreated,
    and generally having a tough time, and still winning in the end
    - read almost any book by Sharon Green (again, lots of sex scenes,
    so don't say I didn't warn you...).
    
    
    For additional discussion on this topic, see:
    
    the SF notesfile (currently at UPSAR::SF)
    
    topics 111 and 277 are on Piers Anthony, and topic 164 is on Xanth

    topic 72 is titled "Heinlein - Chauvinist?", fwiw....
    
    on with the discussion!
    
    -Jody

    
    Having read up to 12-15 of his books, I can definitely say that your
    alarm bells are quite accurate and his portrayals of men and women are
    consistently distinct and biased. I think I stopped reading him around
    2 years ago, out of total disgust at his female characters, even though
    the subject matter of his "Incarnations of Immortality" was
    fascinating. My sister, who hooked me on him to begin with, had a
    similar breaking point.
    
    The conclusion that we reached was his male characters "do" things, and
    his female characters "are" things. In other words, his women, even at
    the height of their power, are passive. Oh, they may glow with
    goodness, or radiate charm and energy, but their ACTIONS are minimal.
    
    It saddened me to draw that conclusion, but I haven't read anything of
    his in a while. And people who know me, know that I EAT books.

    Maggie,
    
    I don't know.  I was happy reading _The_Ring_, _Chthon_, _Omnivore_,
    and _A_Spell_for_Chameleon_, but I wasn't happy with _Orn_, and
    the Xanth books got tiresome real fast.  I don't read him any more.
    Yeah, I could see him, ah, limiting the number of variables that
    way.  ...  In fact, the more I think about it, the more valid a
    claim it seems.  Like Chameleon herself, who could have brains .xor.
    beauty.  And dimly remembered scenes from the first two books
    mentioned.
    
    But, darling, why didn't you come to me?  I can tell you about
    sf authors who are better than just massively popular!
    
    							Ann B.

Yeah, I have read a ton and a half (which is about 3/4 ton too much) Piers
Anthony. He is sort of addictive, but leaves a bad taste in your mouth,
and eventually that overcomes the addiction. That is why I haven't picked
up an Anthony book since the 3rd "Adept" book.

He is really sexist.  The *classic* example was in the first Xanth book,
with the woman who is stunningly beautiful/dumbfooundingly stupid,
incredibly intelligent/horrifyingly ugly, or just sort of so-so on all
counts.  (guess which one Our Hero "goes for".)  talk about the old
"brains x beauty = constant" adage.  :-P  (Otherwise, tho, it's a pretty
fun read.  One thing Anthony *isn't* though, is deep.)

BTW, if you are reading Anthony, *do* read On A Pale Horse.  

D!

    I've been spluttering to myself as I tried to write this note for
    awhile.  I couldn't figure out which bad things to say first, until
    I started to laugh at myself...;-).
    
    But you gave him far too much credit, =m, when you included the
    word 'literary' in the title.  His characters and stories are trashy,
    manipulative, sexist, one-sided, and his serials always fall apart
    without resolving the important stuff...for example, Stile *never* gets
    over his inferiority complex about his height, no matter how many
    "Adept" books you slog through.  The "Tarot" and "Battle Circle"
    books stink.  "Xanth" is terminally cute.  "Space Tyrant" and
    "Incarnations" fell apart fast.  I think the older stuff may be
    better, Orn and Macroscope and Chthon, but I'm not going back to
    check...there's far too much *good* stuff to read.
    
    DougO

    What's interesting with Piers Anthony is how blatantly apparent his
    stereotypical chauvinism really is.  I've read most of his books, and have
    come to absolutely hate his books because of it.  The woman who turned
    me on to Anthony said she'd never give his books to her nieces since
    she didn't want them seeing his portrayals of women.  They are good,
    cheap pulp, though.
    
    Actually, this topic leads to the question "is it PC to read books
    which are blatantly sexist?"  Classic examples that come to my mind are
    Eldridge Cleaver's "Soul on Ice" and Alexander Solzynitzen's (the
    spelling is hopelessly wrong; may Russian majors not send me to the
    gulag ;^) "The Gulag Archipelago" series.  Even though these are touted
    books because of their subject matter, I found them so offensive that I
    refuse to read them.

    I made it to about chapter 4 in the "Blue Adept" before I closed
    the book for good. And Heinlien was too much to take (you can read
    my detailed opinion in SF) near the end.
    
    I think Jim asks a good question. Can I say "we are what we read"?
    or as a bookstore tee-shirt I saw says "reading rots the mind".

    The books by Sharon Green tread a very thin line. This should be in
    a "but I feel so guilty" topic but I do read her books. I manage to
    justify it by saying the woman always comes out ahead in the end but
    there is some real B&D sex in these books. On the other hand, the
    female characters go through a lot of self evaluation as they try to
    understand why they feel so unworthy, and I can understand that
    feeling. Does reading this affect me in a way that isn't "good", I
    can't answer that. liesl

    I haven't read much science fiction since my college days, when I
    burned out on the genre by reading too many Phillip K. Dick novels, the
    psychological damage from which I still haven't recovered.  In fact, I
    discovered at the time that it was possible for me to undergo an
    experience of temporary insanity merely by reading a Phillip K. Dick
    novel while at the same time playing the Talking Heads album "Fear of
    Music".  But that's another story.

    I think I read "Macroscope" (wasn't that by Piers Anthony?) back when I
    was in High School, but I don't remember much about it, except that I
    wasn't all that impressed.  As for Heinlein, I once attempted to wade
    through "Time Enough For Love", but I was unable to get too far, and in
    general I guess I never really liked his work very much.

    Actually, as much as I used to admire Phillip K. Dick, I do have in my
    apartment a copy of the 25th anniversary issue of "The Magazine of
    Fantasy and Science Fiction", in which he writes a rather offensive and
    misogynistic short story about abortion.  But I had always forgiven him
    for that because I enjoyed the bizarre sense of reality he brought to
    his novels during most of his career (at least from the mid-sixties to
    the early seventies.)

    -- Mike

    "Macroscope" is one of my top-ten favorite novels.  I enjoyed it in
    high school and enjoy it today.  I've read a LOT of Anthony's stuff,
    some I like, some I can't get a third the way through.  Very little
    of it is what I'd consider "serious".
    
    Those of you who are interested in Anthony at all might do well to
    pick up his autobiography "Bio of an Ogre".  It gives a lot of insight
    into what makes him tick.  (He also mentions that he uses a
    DEC Rainbow 100 for his writing.)
    
    I will agree that a lot of his stories do seem to be sexist.  I haven't
    decided if that reflects on him as an author or not.
    
    
    Re: .8
    
    I agree, Mike, about Phillip K. Dick.  I still get shivers from having
    read "Ubik" some dozen or more years ago.
    
    					Steve

Jim, what was sexist in Gulag Archipelago? I missed it entirely. Thinking about
it now, I don't even _remember_ anything about _any_ women. I read it when I
was working for and with Russian emigrees at Prime, so I was highly sensitized
to the, um, er, management style depicted in the prison.
	Mez

    Re: Mez
    
    Its been a few years, but I seem to remember that the book had some
    seriously negative overtones towards women; enough to make me think
    that it was the author's personal opinion.  Or it might have been the
    complete lack of women in his book which made it seem like they were
    non-entities.
    
    Mayhaps I should take another look, as he might simply have been depicting
    soviet culture or some such and I was reading too much into it.  This
    was back in my college days, so I might not have handled something this
    subtle all that well.

    Solzhenitsyn in general tends to portray such a seamy side of
    humanity that I don't have much problem with him portraying women
    negatively (the fact that I can't remember any in his books either 
    shows that at the very least, his portrayals of women are eminently 
    forgettable, which may be a saving grace in this case).

    To grab a glaring case of literary sexism out of Russian literature,
    though, we could take (...seethe...) Tolstoy, who left a score of
    philosophical treatises on "family roles" in addition to his books,
    which in my opinion made his opinion of women all-too-clear in and
    of themselves.

	Sharon

    I'm relieved to hear that my perception of Anthony is shared...but that
    then raises a perhaps more chilling question:  what does it say about
    the world we live in that he's so astoundingly popular..."Blatant
    sexism pays *really* *well*"?
    
    That's scary!
    
    
    As to russian novels, I've never read any since I tried to work my way
    through "Prestuplenie i Nakazanie" (Crime and Punishment) and nearly
    herniated my brain.  But I could certainly believe sexism of good ol'
    Lev Tolstoy:  he lived in the 19th century and was a religious
    fanatic; the latter characteristic by itself is practically a guarantee
    of misogynism.
    
    
    Ann, who do you recommend?  I'm waiting with both hope and fear for S&S
    VI, and have just found a new author who seems to be pretty nifty
    considering that I think "The Steerswoman" is her first book.
    
    						=maggie

>    I'm relieved to hear that my perception of Anthony is shared...but that
>    then raises a perhaps more chilling question:  what does it say about
>    the world we live in that he's so astoundingly popular..."Blatant
>    sexism pays *really* *well*"?
 
Actually, as cynical as I am, I wouldn't say that Anthony's popularity
is related to his sexism.  I think Anthony's writing is sexist because
he's sexist (unsupported opinion.)  I think Anthony's writing is popular
because it's easy to read, funny/humorous, addicitive, he leaves you hanging
at the end of every book in a series to keep you buying the rest, gives you
"warm fuzzy" feelings because everything always works out for the best,
includes lots of "neato-keeno-golly-gee-whiz" fantasy ideas, his heros
are always just what we want to be, with enough human qualities to make 
them appear "in reach", etc...  I really think that he writes cheap, fun
pulp that is popular and *happens* to be incredibly sexist.

As for whether it's PC to read Anthony or other sexist writers...who cares?
If you find it personally offensive, don't read it.  (I never did make it
through The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.)  Enjoying someone's writing doesn't
mean you share their views.

Oh yeah, Heinlein - Spider Robinson wrote an interesting, if unconvincing,
defense of Heinlein, inn an article called something like "Rah, Rah R.A.H",
where he presents arguments *against* many of the claims leveled and RAH,
including sexism.  (And liberalism, conservatism, fascism, homophobia, etc.)
Any read it, or remember where I read it?  (Analog?  Preface to The Past 
Thru Tomorrow? Haven't the faintest idea...)

D!

    re: .14
    
    Yeah.  What she said.  It's fun pulp.
    
    And, fwiw, I read whatever I want.  I don't consider my reading
    material's correctness before I read it.  I can get something out
    of almost anything I read, whatever point of view it comes from.
    
    -Jody
    

    I happen to be a Heinlein fan.  (Well, there have to be some of
    us, or he wouldn't sell so well.)  His female characters were the
    first examples I found of girls who were smart and did things on
    their own.  I'm thinking specifically of "Podkayne on Mars", which
    I first read when I was in junior high umpteen zillion years ago.
    I can't think of a female character that I would classify as 'weak',
    except in a couple of his last few books that I basically trashed
    as off-the-wall even for him.  They aren't always dominant, but
    they do always seem to be intelligent and capable.
    
    Alison

    
>    And, fwiw, I read whatever I want.  I don't consider my reading
>    material's correctness before I read it.  I can get something out
>    of almost anything I read, whatever point of view it comes from.

This leads to a key point.  It's _important_ to know what is being said
out there, to read it and _understand_ what is being said, if one is
interested in being not only politically correct but also politically
informed.  And just because a writer is sexist does not mean that their
work is devoid of other value.  I don't think it's "right" (as opposed
to PC) to closet ourselves in the "safe" sector of society where
certain-things-aren't-said.  I think it's _good_ that this note is
_talking_ about a writer being sexist, not just accepting a label because
that's what somebody said (and since we're all so PC, we didn't read it...)    

Thinking for oneself is the key to political change and personal growth.
Not reading sexist writers isn't going to have much effect anyway.  Not 
_buying_ their books, now that's a different matter...

	Sharon

Maggie --

Well, Ann B. hasn't put in her list yet, but here's a list off
the top of my head, of personal favorites who (hopefully) aren't
too sexist. 

    Elizabeth Lynn -- almost anything, esp _Northern_Girl_,
    (fantasy) which is third in a *very* loose trilogy.  The male
    characters in some of her earlier work seem a little
    cardboard, but otherwise ok.

    P.C. Hodgell -- _God_Stalk_ and _Dark_of_the_Moon_ (fantasy)
    first two books in a trilogy, third book not yet written.

    Joan Vinge -- _The_Snow_Queen_ and _World's_End_ (sf), also
    first two books in an incomplete trilogy.  She also has a
    short story collection (name forgotten) with a shorter piece
    I like a lot, "Tin Soldier."

    Pamela Sargent -- _The_Shore_of_Women_ (I think...don't
    remember this one too well, but I think it was sf) and
    _Venus_of_Dreams_ (sf), quite good although not plotty.

    Ursula K. LeGuin -- If you read f/sf, you've probably read
    most of her stuff.  If not, I would recommend _The_Word_for_
    _World_is_Forest_ (sf), _The_Left_Hand_of_Darkness_ (sf), and
    _The_Dispossessed_ (sf).  The juvenile EarthSea trilogy
    (fantasy) is also nicely done.  I particularly enjoyed her
    recent essay collection, _Dancing_at_the_Edge_of_the_World_
    (or something like that), and *after* reading her essays,
    enjoyed _Always_Coming_Home_ (sf, but not really a novel)
    quite a bit.

Unfortunately, most of these writers don't have a large volume of
work.  Fortunately, I like re-reading.  ;)  Hope this helps!

-- Linda

    And if you haven't read any of her work yet, Alice Sheldon, who
    wrote under the pseudonym James Tiptree, Jr.
    
    And Kate Wilhelm.
    
    And John Varley.
    
    --- jerry

    I tried Piers Anthony for the same reason as the basenote author (he's
    prolific, and if you *like* the writings of a prolific writer, you're
    happy for weeks and weeks!) but stopped reading him (I think) because I
    found him --sorry if you like him-- inane.  I liked his imagination at
    first, but got tired of all the puns.  He was reaching too hard for a
    yuk.
    
    David Brin -- he wrote the trilogy on the Uplift War, and has a
    tremendous imagination.  He writes stories from the point of view of
    more than one character, and often the character who is the subject is
    female.
    
    Anne MacCaffrey -- The Dragon series, of course, and the Crystal Singer
    series.  Her female protagonists are great people.  There's also a
    collection of short stories called Get Off the Unicorn! which was
    different from her usual writing -- more science fiction than fantasy.
    
    
    About other authors mentioned already:
    
    Joan Vinge:  I just read the short story collection you mention:
      Phoenix in the Ashes.  (I'm not sure I like her writing.)
    
    Sharon Green:  She is really a weird mix!  A good imagination, strong
      female lead character, interesting situation -- and then, page after
      page after page of detailed SM-like sexual encounters! In the book I
      read, the heroine was mentally and emotionally strong, highly trained
      in hand-to-hand combat -- yet an entire *third* of the book was
      devoted to describing, in minute detail, how her captors were training
      her as a pain slave. I found myself wondering whether this book would
      be more likely to be reviewed in an SF magazine or Hustler...  :-)
      (Please don't comment on SM here ... !!)
    
    Robert Heinlein:  He is sexist, in my opinion.  He has characters who
      are female and intelligent -- but he discounts them.  In Stranger in
      a Strange Land, there are three intelligent women who -strangely- act
      as geisha/secretary-dogsbodies to a middle-aged man who is a good
      character but who surely is not *that* good.  (A lot of time is spent
      describing their extraordinary physical attributes.)  In Friday, the
      main character is a female android who fights well because she's,
      well, an android -- but sometimes loses and is subjected to physical
      abuse and torture.  They fix her up and send her out again and again. 
      The female characters themselves are fine -- but I question the way
      they are treated by others in the books.

>    David Brin -- he wrote the trilogy on the Uplift War, and has a

Trilogy?  "Startide Rising", it's sequel "The Uplift War" and ????
(Not picking nits, I really want to know!  I LOVED those two books,
and Sundiver, too!)

Sorry for the rathole...

D!

    Come to think of it, I've only read two books also, unless you consider
    "Sundiver" to be part of the same grouping.
    
    Guess it was wishful thinking for a trilogy on my part...  :-)
    
    Pam

Sundiver is the third book in the same "universe."  They can be read
in any order, but, if you're starting from scratch, I'd start with
Sundiver, then Startide Rising, then the Uplift War.

Brin is a sort of Heinlien without sexism.  The thesis of the "universe"
is that mankind solves the problems of the 20th century and

-- Builds some spaceships to explore the universe.
-- improves the intelligence of chimpansees and dolphins (and maybe whales).
   (This is called "uplift").
-- Discovers that the universe is populated by a huge civilization of
   diverse species.
-- All of the other species were uplifted by some predecessor, and uplifted
   others in turn.  The uplifted species pays for its intelligence by
   acting as serfs/slaves to the "patron" species for, perhaps 100,000 years.
   This goes back many billion years to the possibly mythical "progenators."
-- Mankind has no identifiable "patron" and is considered a "wolfling."

Highly recommended.

Martin.

    I remember starting both Stranger in a Srange Land and Friday by
    Heinlen and I could not understand why they didn't hold my attention.
    I didn't spend much time trying to figure out why I just tossed them 
    in a box reserved for so-so books and reread The Moon is a Harsh 
    Mistriss. I really liked the Computer personallity in that book.
    
    I also like the book by Anne MacCaffery called The Ship Who Sang.
    A contuation of this book is in the Get Off the Unicorn collection.
    I believe it is the last story in the book(can't remember the title).
    janet
    P.S. After the first three Piers A. Books I read I got tired of the 
    puns and stopped buying them. 
     

>    I remember starting both Stranger in a Srange Land and Friday by
>    Heinlen and I could not understand why they didn't hold my attention.
>    I didn't spend much time trying to figure out why I just tossed them 



	 Because Heinlein is a certified nutcase, and if you aren't a
	 nut case you have no hope of ever following his books...they
	 start out so calm and wonderful and by half way thru you have
	 no idea who is who and what is where...

	 Nice reading... ;-)

	 kat     

    Marion Zimmer Bradley - the newer, the better, esp. _The_Mists_
    _of_Avalon_ and _The_Firebrand_.

    Lois McMaster Bujold - an interesting cross between Georgette
    Heyer and George Lucas.  Cordelia and Ellie are great characters;
    Miles is something else.
    
    _The_War_for_the_Oaks_ by Emma Bull
    
    Suzy McKee Charnas - I've only read _Walk_to_the_End_of_the_World_,
    but _Motherlines_ is also supposed to be good.
    
    C. J. Cherryh - prolific, sprawling, frequently complex.  (_Pride_
    _of_Chanur_ is a simplified version of _Downbelow_Station_.)  Her
    brother, David Cherry, paints a lot of her covers, with her as a
    model; that is she on the cover of _Cyteen:_The_Betrayal_.  Does
    she look like someone who taught Latin?  To disadvantaged youth?
    While handcuffed to a library cart?
    
    Suzette Hadin Elgin - the Ozark trilogy is a lot of fun.  "For the
    Love of Grace", at the start of _At_the_Seventh_Level_, is very
    telling.
    
    Diana Wynne Jones - children's fantasy.  You certainly can't tell
    her characters' genders by their degree of pluckiness or level of
    intelligence.
    
    Tanith Lee - mostly fantasy, a lot of short stories.  Her fairy
    tale retellings are ... interesting.
    
    Ursula LeGuin - reliably good.
    
    R. A. MacAvoy - She burst on the scene with _Tea_with_the_Black_
    _Dragon_ -- but skip its sequel, _Twisting_the_Rope_.  I really
    liked  The Third Eagle .  Its hero is part Candide, part Kane from
    "Kung Fu", but with a bit of the Fonz.
    
    Anne McCaffrey - another reliable.  She has also written several
    contemporary Gothics and romances that have sturdy, competent
    heroines.
    
    Patricia McKillip - the Riddle of Stars trilogy, other good stuff.
    
    Robin McKinley - retold fairy tales, but she is writing some new
    ones.  I really like _Beauty_, her retelling of Beauty and the
    Beast.  She's won the Newberry Medal twice.
    
    _The_Falling_Woman_ by Pat Murphy
    
    Andre Norton - old time reliable.  Try _Witch_World_ and _The_Year_
    _of_the_Unicorn_.

    James Tiptree Jr./Racoona Sheldon - mostly short stories.  Consider
    the savage "Screwfly Solution".
    
    Joan Vinge - reliable
    
    Kate Wilhelm - long time reliable.  She's also done some things
    that pass for mainstream.
    
    Connie Willis - wonderful short stories.  "Firewatch" and "The Last
    of the Winnebagos" are very special.  "Blued Moon" belongs in that
    small category, sf humor.
    
    Jane Yolen - I remember her as a children's fantasy writer who
    couldn't understand why she had been invited to speak at a science
    fiction convention.  She's expanded a lot since then.
    
    
    David Brin - as mentioned.  Sometimes he's <kinniwullun> himself,
    but...
    
    Robert A. Heinlein - Sometimes, out of the corner of your eye, you
    get to see a good female character, like the woman at the start
    of _Methusalah's_Children_, the girlfriend in _The_Star_Beast_
    ("Did I ever tell you why I divorced my parents?"), or the big sister
    in _Tunnel_in_the_Sky_.

    _Courtship_ Rite_ by Donald Kingsbury
    
    _Emergence_ by David Palmer is the newest Heinlein juvenile.
    
    _Rite_of_Passage_ by Alexei Panshin is another Heinlein juvenile.
    He is rumored to have started writing again:  _The_Universal_
    _Pantograph_.  It should have more of the "gawk" from _The_Thurb_
    _Revolution_.
    
    							Ann B.

    
    	re: 850.28  I kinda like Marion Zimmer Bradley, The Mists
    	of Avalon was really quite good. What I initially began
    	reading from her collection was the DARKOVER series of stories.
    	Especially the earlier ones.
    						kim *8^}
    

    re .7 .22
    
    Ag!  Sharon Green??  blech, ptooey!
    
    I hated her stuff and find it verrrry hard to believe Sharon Green is
    not the pseudonym of some very frustrated male neanderthal.  
    
    The following is ranting and raving in which I am extremely insensitive
    to those who like Sharon Green.  Thus it follows a form feed:
    
    
    I read one of her novels and found it fun, though there were some weird
    domination scenes.  that novel was presented as a departure from the
    rest of the series, though, so i assumed the domination bit was the
    deviation.
    
    unfortunately, i now have SEVERAL novels which i cannot throw away or
    burn because of my belief in the evil-ness of such book disposal, but
    can't give away because i am too embarassed to have BOUGHT the darned
    things in the FIRST place.
    
    i'm not real hot on a series of books which graphically demonstrate how
    to take a tough, strong, capable woman and turn her into a sex slave -
    then JUSTIFY it all be showing how much happier she is being led around
    by the <gag me, blech> barbarian who is EVER so much WISER in the ways
    of women (man who understands women better than WOMEN understand
    women!? the arrogance of that concept makes me want to draw blood...)
    
    and it's NOT the S&M about it so much as the MENTAL manipulation that
    drives me nuts - the "ooh you big hunky thing, thank you EVER so much
    for making it so that i don't have to make any decisions... and i made
    them SOO badly, you're SOO much better at it than me, you're SOOO much
    better at everything than me (except maybe serving food and getting
    tortured)"
    
    eek!  peristalsis!!
    
    ahem.  just my, er, humble (?) opinion.

    Re: .30

    Lee,

    I've only read one book by Sharon Green, and I hope to never read
    another. I agree with your evaluation of her work. Yuck!

    As far as I know, Sharon Green is a genuine female. In my opinion
    she is a very frustrated female neanderthal. Why do you think
    think that only men can write such crud? 

    Bruce

Wow, sounds like this Sharon Green is someone I should read.

I am on a kinky shlock kick right now (having just finished my first Gor
novel, and in fact my first shlock novel of any kind.)  What are the titles?

:-)

D!

    The Sharon Green book I read was MIND GUEST.
    
    Interesting premise:  Special Agent of the Federation accidentally
    lands in unfamiliar space territory populated by EXTREMELY humanoid
    types.  As thanks to them helping her, she takes on a mission.
    
    To prepare for the mission, they implant a copy of a personality into
    her mind and restructure her body to look like the person who's
    personality she has been given.  The problem is, the personality should
    be "read-only" for her use as a library of information...what happens
    in this case is that the personality seeps into her own on occasion,
    obscuring her judgment.  
    
    For what happens, read the book at your own risk!
    Pam

    Oh.  no!  D!  kinky schlock aside, and whatever floats your boat is
    fine, and if you like the Gor books (20+ by now, I shudder), you'll 
    probably like Green and Anthony and other horrors perpetrated upon 
    the F&SF world by purveyors who know they'll sell...
    
    but pardon me while I gnash my teeth and whimper that only 6 books
    from the Biography of Dom Manuel have ever been reprinted since
    the 20s...that rarely can we find the mastery of Cabell or Peake
    or Eddison or Dunsany any longer (praise be for Gene Wolfe), and 
    that PT Barnum's dictum about who gets born every minute comes true 
    in the world of F&SF every day, and I just hate to see so much schlock 
    and so little of the stuff *I* like (guilty literary centrism ack)
    getting published anymore...
    
    Please.  Lets not talk about Gor.  please?
    
    DougO

    
    	Another vote for the Sharon Green YECCCH PTOOEY! contingent.
    	I really do wonder who this person really is. Perhaps Sharon
    	Green is actually a group of ghost writers working for some 
    	pulp outfit?
    
    							kim *8^{
    

>    Oh.  no!  D!  kinky schlock aside, and whatever floats your boat is
>    fine, and if you like the Gor books (20+ by now, I shudder), you'll 
>    probably like Green and Anthony and other horrors perpetrated upon 

Hey, I said I *read* Gor, not that I liked it.  Actually I found it pretty
dull, and somewhat offensive.  But I figure, after years and years of reading
*good* SF, that it was time to read some pulp, just so that I have some
comparison so that I can appreciate it.

As for Anthony, as I said before, i once found his stuff amusing, but after
time, his triviality and sexism starting getting more irritating than his
cute characters and silly puns were enjoyable.  I would certainly never,
never all Anthony *good* SF.  (Except perhaps "On a Pale Horse".)

Of course, you and I might disagree what is "Good", but I doubt you would
call my reading staples "shlock".

>    (praise be for Gene Wolfe)

As I said, we certainly might disagree.  I made it three-fourths through "The
Shadow of the Torturer" and never bothered finishing cause it was so boring!

D!

    Speaking of Gene Wolfe, just last night I was reading through a
    collection of his older short stories.  I suppose his writing isn't
    "politically correct", since in at least one story he used the word
    "girl" to describe an adult female, but I have now read "The Island of
    Doctor Death" for what must be the fifth or sixth time in my life, and
    it very well may be my favorite short story of all time, of any genre.
    
    -- Mike

    Sigh!  I was mistaken as to who "Sharon Green" was; I thought she was
    the woman who write a (very bad) series of books called the 'High Couch
    of Silestra' series (or some such title).
    
     Anyone out there (Ann?) remember who wrote those soft-core SF
    'masterpieces'????
    
    				N

    I think you must have meant Janet Morris (*sigh*).  
    
    How come *I* know the names and remember all of these dreadful books?
    
    DougO
    
    PS- D!- first time I read that book I had exactly the same reaction;
    but I tried some of his other stuff (The Three Heads of Cerberus,
    The Island Of Doctor Death and Other Stories and Other Stories,
    and more recently Soldier in the Mist and There Are Doors); and when
    you go back to the tetrology (The Book of the New Sun) thy are much
    more accessible...he uses the language so much more skillfully than
    most writers that it takes some getting used to.  imo.

    Which bookstore was lost, Doug? One of the "Hobbits"? I have friends
    who have partial business interest in them.

    No, Tamzen, and actually I'm not *sure* its "lost"...I just can't
    get close enough yet to check.  The bookstore is the Old Curios
    Bookstore on the corner of Santa Cruz Ave and Main Street in downtown
    Los Gatos; and the entire block is cordoned off.  The place is across
    the street from the building which houses Mountain Charley's nightclub
    and that building is known to be condemned. 
    
    The Old Curios is the only place I've ever seen editions of the
    other 20 books from the Biography of Dom Manuel by Cabell that I
    mentioned earlier...these are all first or second editions from
    the era 1910-1930, and they're marked $15-$45 each...I was saving
    my money...now, I don't know if I'll ever find them, if the store
    is a loss.  Its the not knowing that hurts the most.  Hmmm...maybe
    I should call the Chambers of Commerce, they might know.
    
    DougO

    re: someone earlier...
    
    Someone said they had trouble getting rid of books they didn't want,
    but didn't want to admit to buying...  (can *anyone* throw a book 
    away??)  I have found that the "midnite donation" to the local library
    is usually a good way.  Just drop it in the return box.  Our library
    holds a sale of extra/unwanted books each year to raise money, this 
    kind of book usually winds up in the sale.
    
    Linda_who_should_again_weed_out_the_bookshelves
    

    Or give it for credit to an "Annie's Book Swap" type place (they're all
    over eastern-central MA) - and turn the credit into used books you're
    NOT ashamed of....heck, they've seen it all, they have more bookcases
    of romance-novels (good AND bad) than anyplace I've ever SEEN - more
    occult newage books (and I'm not knocking 'em, heck I bought some of
    'em) - and more "offbeat" stuff than I've seen in a long time....also
    lots of SF...
    
    -Jody

If you live in the Boston area and take the MBTA, you can leave unwanted 
books on the reading rack at the Porter Sq. station.  

Or give 'em to me!

D!

    
    Or you can leave them on the widowsill at MRO1-2 near pole MP19.
    This is supposed to be the location of a "book swap" but it doesn't
    really work that way.
    
    CQ

    I don't think I put this pointer in before, so, for those of you
    interested in the non-sexist science fiction:
    
    womannotes-v1
    301 - feminist science fiction and fantasy

RE: 850.14 by TLE::D_CARROLL

> Oh yeah, Heinlein - Spider Robinson wrote an interesting, if unconvincing,
> defense of Heinlein, inn an article called something like "Rah, Rah R.A.H"...
> Any read it, or remember where I read it? 

You'll find "Rah Rah R.A.H." in Spider's _Time Travelers, Strictly
Cash_  (Callahan stories, plus others).  He wrote it after he finished
reading an advance copy of _Expanded Universe_, and used it also as
his Guest of Honor speech at the 1980 Boskone.

-- Cathy

    Just because there has been so much discussion about Piers Anthony,
    I decided to try one book since opinions were different.  Nary a one
    in the library.  I may or may not try a bookstore.  Since September
    I've gone over the $300 mark in bookstores.  They are definitely 
    places for me to avoid.....
    
    But since my library usually has at least one book by a prolific writer
    unless the writer is solely in paperback, I was surprised by the 
    absence - does he write on "adult themes" that libraries avoid or what?
    
    just curious,  cathy

    I don't know what libraries you frequent, but the Worcester Public
    Library has about a zillion of his Xanth-series books.  They're either
    on the 7-day loaner rack or back in the Sci-Fi section.  Your library
    should be able to use the inter-library loan to get them (assuming
    DNEAST is in the central-Mass area).
    
    Jim

    DNEAST is just where it sounds like it should be:  Maine.
    
    I will try our inter-library loan program, but I have found that
    Augusta is much more creative in many ways than northern Maine where
    I have also lived....  although the beauty did have its compensations.
    
    I do go to Freeport to Annie's Book Swap, but haven't been for about a
    month.  That would be the faster route.

    
    Is it mere coincidence, or planned pun that the restaurant in Boston
    is called
    
    	Anthony's Pier # 4.
    
    Is that a planned pun on "Piers Anthony" ?
    
    /Eric

    Re: .52
    
    A coincidence, though an amusing one in hindsight.
    
    			Steve

    At Philcon, my friend Suford spoke to Stan Schmidt, and he told
    her that the next Miles story will be in the February issue of
    "Analog".
    
    							Ann B.

Recently re-read an old Heinlien collection "Assignment in Eternity."
Judging from those stories, he was perhaps more of an "elitest" than
a "sexist." (Your mileage may vary.)  Some quotes:

-- In "Gulf" (copyright 1949), the nasty evil (woman) who is trying to
   become the ruler of the world by possessing the ultimate weapon has
   grabbed a waitress who had talked with the hero.  They torture her
   to try to get the hero to divulge the secret documents.
	"What do you plan to gain by abusing this child? You have all
	she knows; certainly you do not believe that we could afford to
	trust in such as she?"

	Mrs Keithley pursed her lips.  "Frankly, I do not expect to learn
	anything from her.  I may learn something from you."

	... [the torturer] and his partner got busy... [her screams] stopped
	as she fainted.

	They roused her and stood her up again.  She stood, swaying and staring
	stupidly at her poor hands, forever damaged even for the futile
	purposes to which she had been capable of putting them.

-- But, in "Elsewhen", (copyright 1941), college students "travel" to a
   number of alternate realities.  Helen decides to visit Bob's:
	"I'll go over without any return instructions.  I like the sound
	of this world of Bob's anyway.  I may stay there.  Cut out the
	chivalry, Bob.  One of the things I liked about your world was
	the notion of treating men and women alike."
  [Bob's sister is a military commander in this alternate world.]

Not to deny the sexism in much of Heinlien's writing, but the picture
is somewhat more complex.

Martin.