Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    I'd wait for someone who was both.  It may be a long wait, but I
    can be VERY patient.
    
    -Jody
    

	It sounds very easy when stated as clearly as the base note puts it,
	but life is rarely (if ever) that straightforward when one is in the 
	middle of it.

	I married a man who, while not "Mr Humdrum," was also not the man of 
	my dreams.  I had just gotten out of a relationship which had ended 
	on friendly but disappointing terms.  I was acutely aware that the
	fact that someone made my heart go pit-a-pat didn't mean we'd be
	able to build a happy and stable life together; he was not very 
	independant, so I looked around for someone who was.  At the time,
	his independance was very attractive to me.

	It's hard to know what we need in life, and what we can do without.
	I thought I could live with someone who was emotionally detached;
	I was wrong, but it took me several years of isolation to learn it.

	Beverly

    Re .1, But, Jody, what if you haven't found him by the time your're
    40, will you still be waiting?  What if you haven't found him by
    the time you're 60, will you keep waiting?  Who knows, maybe he'll
    turn up when you're/i'm 75? I don't mean to be cynical but a person
    can wait just so long for "Mr. Right" without deciding to either
    forget the whole thing or settle for "Mr. Humdrum."
 (Of course we musn't let Mr. Humdrum know he's Mr. Humdrum, or we may
    miss out on that, too. :-)  Most everyone has their pride!)
    
    Frankly, I'm beginning to doubt that there is that mythical "someone"
    for everybody - or maybe we find them for a little while and then
    it evaporates in the mediocrity of daily living.
    
    Recently one of my closest "girlfriends" told me, "Lorna, you just
    haven't met the right one yet."  I said, "That might have made me
    feel better when I was 20, but I'm forty f***ing yrs. old now. 
    When am I going to meet him when I'm sixty?  How about when I'm
    82 and senile in a nursing home?  That should be fun."   
    
    I don't think there's anything wrong with choosing Mr. Humdrum if
    a person can stand him.  I also don't think there's anything wrong
    with staying single forever.  Whatever seems preferable at the time.
     
    Also, sometimes a person doesn't have the choice to stay with the
    person they want.  That person may not want them.  Also, a person
    can love more than one person at a time, too.  It's possible to
    regret a past romance while still enjoying a current relationship.
     I agree it gets pretty complicated.
    
    Lorna
    

	 I don't believe there is just one Mr Right out there for
	 everyone...I believe there are several.....

	 I also believe that you won't "find" one of your Mr. Right's
	 unless you actively make yourself available for him.....(ie,
	 get outta the house once in awhile!  Life is NOT all work,
	 and home....)

	 I'll settle for no less than a lover and a friend for my
	 mate...I've had both of the opposite ends of the spectrum,
	 and am not happy with either...there is no place for me but
	 middle ground.....and I know there are many men out there to
	 fit that description.   :-)    

	 In the mean time, I'm 24, enjoying life, and I could really
	 care less whether it doesn't happen right til I'm 60!  On the
	 trek there, I'll enjoy every moment of it.

	 kath

    Re .4, Kath, if anything I've made myself far *too available* to
    men - those vile critters! :-)
    
    Also, there's less to choose from when you're over 40.  As I've
    stated before in this very conference, most men over 40 are either
    married, gay, incredibly homely, nauseatingly obese, or have
    unbelievably obnoxious personalities.  And, I've found that those
    men over 40 who don't fall into the previous categories tend to
    prefer dating women in their early 20's! *sigh*
    
    Lorna
    

	 Lorna...I know some wonderful 40+ men that don't meet any of
	 those criteria!  :-)
	 
>    men over 40 who don't fall into the previous categories tend to
>    prefer dating women in their early 20's! *sigh*


	 So, why don't you date men in their 20s?  There are some
	 rather wonderful ones out there.  :-)
	     


	 kath

<	 Lorna...I know some wonderful 40+ men that don't meet any of
<	 those criteria!  :-)
	 
<	 So, why don't you date men in their 20s?  There are some
<	 rather wonderful ones out there.  :-)
	     
	 kath

    So kath, why don't you introduce them to me? :*) None of them seem to
    know I'm alive. I'm afraid you'll find that, in general, your stock
    as a woman goes down as you age. I see lots of men dating MUCH
    younger women but not too much on the reverse side. Sure, we're fine
    as friends, but that seems to be it. I just can't bring myself to
    settle for mr "better than nothing". At least I had passionate love
    for awhile, even if it wasn't returned in kind. Of course, I'm
    speaking as one who was the lover and not the lovee in a 15 year
    marriage. :*( liesl

    I too am prepared to wait for that knight.  I really do believe
    that the right person is out there - ya just have to bump into him.
    
    I have a mug on my desk that reads U.S.W.I.S.O.M.W.A.G.M.O.H.O.T.M.
                                       
    Which translated means United single women in search of men who
    aren't gay, married, or hung-up on their mothers.
    
    Believe me, when you've had second best, the best *is* worth waiting
    for.
    
    ...dale
    

    In regards to Prince Charming, I just heard a great story.

    The woman I board my horse with has a lovely white gelding named
    PIPER. When I returned from my vacation she told me a great romantic
    tale. She recieved a phone call from a woman who had been given her
    number by a friend that knew Piper. It seems this woman's daughter
    was one who had always joked about the knight on a white horse
    comming to sweep her off her feet. Her boyfriend was flying in from
    Texas and the mother wanted to rent Piper so he could ride up to the
    house on a white horse.

    Vickie met him about 2 blocks from the parents house (in a rual
    area) and had Piper saddled and ready. She was meeting the man for
    the first time and asked him if he could ride well, "Mam'm" he says
    in answer, "I'm from texas!". He proceded to jump on Piper and rode
    at a canter up to the house where the woman's parents had her
    waiting on the porch. He then dismounted and asked her to marry him.
    Vickie loved it, plus she and Piper made $100 that night.

    There's no fool like an old fool, so I can still dream that someone
    might love me enough to do something that romantic. What a great
    surprise. BTW, she said YES! liesl

    And Virginia, I bet we're a few of the people left who believe in
    Santa, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy.
                      
    That's why I just love sunsets, you just never know who's going
    to come along. (^;  This Texan doesn't have a brother, does he?
    
    ...dale
    

    This is a great question!  I thought I had the answer, but am not so
    sure anymore.  I'd probably take the "friend", but have second thoughts
    the entire time wondering about "what might have been."  Even though
    I'd have wound up absolutely hating the "lover who's a real pain in the
    a**" after a relatively short period of time, culminating with my
    storming out and never talking with her again.
    
    It would be interesting to see how different age groups would answer
    this question.  And if there's any difference between the sexes.
    
    On second thought, I'd pick the "friend" but have a mistress on the
    side ;^).  Now that I've been trained it shouldn't be too hard to
    manage two, right Dale?  ;^)

    Well, I married Don, �lo these 22 years �ago, knowing that he
    was my 'best friend' but that I wasn't 'snowed' over him to use
    the terminology of the time.
    
    and we've been  throgh a lot, and fought and love d a lot 
    over those years, and I recommend marrying your best freind,
    as I did...you may at times wish for the romance you lost, but
    you gain in having a partner who truely cares foryou, and ��who,
    with patience, on both of your parts, will develop into a deeper
    love than any of us can imagine when we are infatuated with 
    a new love.
    
    Having married my 'best friend', and the '�nicest guy I ever met'
    and having grown�in 'romantic love' with him over the years, and
    having seen him be a wonderful father to our children, and 
    having come to �care for him more than myself...I'd vote to
    marry�the man who is a good friend or a buddy over the man one
    is wildly infatuated over.
    
    Bonnie
    ��

    Having choosen one of each (#1 husband - lover, #2 husband - friend)
    I'd say wait until you can combine both.  
    
    A lover or a friend are both "nice" to have but...  
    
    The lover didn't have a real tight grip on every day life.  Things
    like paying bills, washing dishes, car repair escaped him.  The
    friend was great with the every day things but romance was not his
    style.
    
    The present man in my life is a wonderful combination of both. 
    I'd say keep searching untill you find the one with the combination
    of each that suits you.  Anything else is settling for less than
    you're worth.
    
    

    I said I'd wait to get married til someone was both best friend
    and lover to me.  That doesn't mean I won't have any relationships
    on the way.  I just think if I'm *ever* going to get married, I'd
    better make damn sure it has the best shot of enduring (i.e. is
    as close to perfect compatibility-wise as possible) from the start.
    I know no marriage comes with guarantees, but why get married if
    you don't give it your best shot?
    
    -Jody
    

    Guess I've been lucky.
    
    I've been through the wringer with men.  Swore I'd only marry someone
    who was my best friend AND lover.  I've found both.  It really does
    happen.  Maybe we're not married, but who knows?
    
    All I can say is -- wait!  Don't sell male friends short.  They
    can be incredibly romantic as well, you just have to let them know
    that's what you need.  After hemming and hawing about the lack of
    romance in my current relationship with my "best friend", I thought,
    ok, if I want the romance, I have to let him know.  I told him what
    my needs were, and the response has been overwhelming!
    
    I might not get flowers all the time, or little cards, but he's
    always there when I need him, and he's been making me see life in
    a whole different light.  Before the passion came fast and furiously,
    then died down over time and once that's gone, it's really hard
    to get back.  Well, I'd rather the passion be less fast and furious
    in the beginning, and build up over time.  The better your sweetheart
    treats you, the more he gives of himself, the more the passion builds
    inside (at least that's what's happening to me - I wasn't real crazy
    about sex in the beginning, compared to my previous relationship
    -- major passion and no substance at all other than that -- but
    it grows and grows every day!).
    
    We'll see what happens, but you really *can* be both best friends
    and lovers, as long as the door to communication is wide open at
    all times!
    
    Tammi
    

    Given the various stats and the literature on love and relationships,
    these are some *very* interesting responses.  How does all this square
    up with the earlier discussion on "Better Than Nothing" relationships?   
    Is this issue or its resolution different for lesbians?
    
    						=maggie

    Well my first entry into this notesfile is a subject close to my
    heart.  As I am on my second marriage, I feel I may have some input
    of value.
    
    My first marriage was to a man who was "solid", "dependable", etc.
    The marriage was boring but in my circles so was everyone else's.
    When he turned 40, Mr. Solid and Dependable decided he wanted a
    younger woman so he ran off with his secretary, 15 years his junior.
    
    My current husband I met when I was over 40.  He is 5 years younger
    than I.  He had never been married, is not gay, nauseatingly ugly,
    grossly obese or any of the other descriptions.  He also appreciated
    the qualities of older women.  After spending his life dating pretty
    young airheads, he was ready for something more in his life.
    
    We were friends for some time before we began dating and I truly
    enjoyed his friendship, in fact, I was a bit skeptical about dating
    his as I didn't want to lose that friendship.  Well dating didn't
    destroy the friendship, but there were some rocky times in the
    relationship, as all relationships tend to have some rocky time.
    
    We dated for quite some time, moved in together for 3 years before
    he decided he wanted to marry.  I didn't want the wonder and magic
    to go out of our relationship so marriage was a bit scary for me.
    
    Well, we got married just one year ago and it is still great.  He
    is a very good friend, a terrific lover and a wonderful husband.
    
    My suggestion, wait for both.  Being single is great if you approach
    it that way.  I hesitated to move in with him as I didn't want to
    give up my "singleness".  All the appeal of marriage falls away
    when things are bad.  One of the things my present husband told
    me while we were only friends and before we started dating was not
    to "settle" for anything, to get what I really wanted.
    
    Go for it.  DON'T SETTLE!!!!
    
    BERNICE
     

My parents marriage was one of wild infatuation: love at first sight, proposal 
within a week, marriage within 6 weeks, followed by years of growing discontent 
as two mostly incompatible people tried to stay together for the sake of their
kids, divorce official one week before their 20th anniversary.

The result was I decided, very young and on a purely intellectual basis, that I
would not fall in love, but marry a man who was as different of my father as 
possible, and as kind as my grandfather. I took this decision when I was around
10 years old and stuck to it. I met my present husband when I was 19. He was 
getting out of a messy marriage, had no job, did not want any sort of relation-
ship. When, after a long period of healing, he would want to establish a 
relationship again, he would be looking for somebody as different of his first
wife as he could find. He corresponded exactly to what I was looking for, 
though I was not really attracted to him. I was dating a very good-looking
Tunisian who had wild ideas of taking me back to his country. However, I felt 
sorry for him, and thought he needed an energetic friend to get him out of his
despondent state.

We started by going out as "just friends" for about a year, then dated also for
about a year (each keeping his own living arrangements), then lived together
for 2 years (more or less) then married. During the dating period we also 
stopped seeing each other completely for a period of time (around 3 months?)
as neither of us was ready for more involvement.

Our love has grown with the years, a quiet and deep love, made of friendship 
and an ever increasing understanding of each other. 

I don't think that either of us settled for "second best", though we didn't
live a grand passion in the early years of being together.

To me, it seems very much a question of mindset: if you have decided you will 
not settle for anything less than a big romance whereby you will find yourself 
swept off your feet by an handsome stranger on a dark and stormy night, then
settling for "just a friend" may well produce two unhappy people. On the other
hand, it would be a pity to miss out on the love of your life because you
thought of him/her as "just a friend" and never allowed your relationship to
develop...

I'd also agree we were lucky: we chose friendship over passion, and
found love in the bargain!    

Joana
                          

All these messages saying "Go for both" make it seem so obvious.  However I
don't think it's so simple.  As Beverly pointed out, you don't always know.
Also, it isn't necessarily "settling for less" if you marry a man who is a
wonderful friend, but doesn't make your heart go pitter-pat...if you really
love him deeply, and he makes you happier than anyone else in the world,
and you feel he is the best person in the world for you, despite the lack
of pitters, is that "settling"?

In general, I would say there has to be *some* level of pittering.  But
basically "go with the friend".  10 years down the road, will the pitter
still be there?  Probably not.  But the friendship will be. I see a lot of
relationship where the start is all *magic* and starry eyes and sighing.
Even if there is a deep friendship there, it tends to be disappointing when
the "Oh, he's *sooooo* wonderful" feeling wears off.  Even if you realize
you have nothing real to be disappointed about, since things always loose
their magic with time, it can still damage the relationship.  But if it
*starts* with deep friendship, and the pittering is gradual, you can avoid
the disappointment, and end up with the same friendship 10 years down the
raod you would have gotten with "both".

Of course, don't listen to me.  I am currently involved *seriously* with
a man who makes my heart go pitter-pat - but less so than he did at the
start, and I am discovering that the friendship underneath needs working
on.  Hopefully we will both work through the disappointment phase to 
discover that we are right for eachother underneath.

D!

    Re .6, Kath, whenever I meet any men in their 20's today, as soon
    as they meet my 15 yr. old daughter, they never look *my* way again!
     :-)  (Not that I really mind.  I'm glad my daughter is attractive.
     It will make life easier for her, as long as she keeps using her
    brains, too!  Also, I would never let her actually date a guy in
    his 20's yet!  But, I can't stop them from looking & talking.)
    
    Also, Liesl is right.  It's a very sad thing to realize that while
    women in their 20's seem to find men in their 40's attractive, men
    in their 20's don't seem to have any interest in women over 40.
     Just notice in Singles sometime how many men say they want to meet
    a woman under 40 or under 35!  You'd think we turned into withered
    old crones on our 35th birthdays!  
    
    Lorna
    

    
    
    
    	As a few mentioned before don't settle for less than what
    	you really want.  I had alot of rough relationships and
    	pretty much gave up when all of a sudden "Mr Right" was
    	there!  Boy am I'm glad I didn't give up, and I know if
    	I did I would sooner or later reget it in the long run.  
    	My Mr Right is my very best friend and we have a very 
    	passionate love life.  My little heart goes pitter patter 
    	every time I think of him and it was there in the beginning 
    	too!  It is the same with him also.  We just knew that first
    	day, that we found that special person we were waiting for.  
    	We have have been together for a almost three years, "Two years
    	of being engaged and to this date 18 days of marriage!":-) :-)
     
    	We have had our UPS and DOWNS but we are ALWAYS there for 
    	eachother and LISTEN to eachother and will hopefully continue 
    	to do so.  I feel bad for those that think they have to settle 
    	for "Mr Second Right" because in order to have a peace in your  
    	heart you really need both in your life.  Having one just 
    	makes you miss the other more so if Mr Right Didn't pop into 
    	to my life I would have waited and just enjoyed living my as 
    	it was. "Mr Right" is out there, just one less now, due to
    	the fact that I have one...:-)
    
    
    	Zina Brown

>    men in their 20's don't seem to have any interest in women over 40.

	 Not true!!  Look at Cher!  :-)  (sorry, couldn't resist)...

         Okay, so everyone doesn't have the body of Cher, but....I
         think that perhaps women "give up", whereas men don't as
         often.  I find a lot more single older men out at clubs,
         movies, shows, etc, than I do single older women.  Also, I
         find that some of the older men I talk to are looking for
         someone to help them feel "alive" again (notice, alive !=
         young) and to have fun with, to enjoy life......while some of
         the older women I talk to are looking for someone to
         integrate into their own peaceful lives, and their already
         engrained attitudes.  

	 Who says that people can't open up a little to new
	 experiences and enjoy the things others enjoy.....making each
	 other's lives part of their own....sharing, compromising....

	 So many times I've seen the scenario where the man is
	 portrayed as the one roving around looking for a place to fit
	 into...and the woman is portrayed as being that "safe house"
	 for him to fit.....  It's not like that.....

	 And possibly, that's one of the reasons older men tend to
	 drift toward younger women.....younger women have the
	 tendancy to not be set into their ways, and are willing and
	 eager to learn to adapt to other's lifestyles.

	 I'm sure I stepped on quite a few toes here, because I did
	 use some typical "stereotypes", but realize that I'm not
	 placing anyone it this stereotype....this situation
	 DEFINATELY does not hold true for every occurance of being
	 35+ and being single.  But it is food for thought.

	 And coming from a 24 year old, you'll probably all give me hell!      


	 kath

<         Okay, so everyone doesn't have the body of Cher, but....I
<         think that perhaps women "give up", whereas men don't as
<         often.  I find a lot more single older men out at clubs,
<         movies, shows, etc, than I do single older women.  Also, I

    Given all the talk in the rape topics that merely placeing ourselves
    in view of males somehow makes us legitimate targets for violence
    I'm even less inclined to go to clubs alone than I ever was.
    Besides, I'm not much for the nightclub scene unless I'm out with
    friends.
    
<	 Who says that people can't open up a little to new
<	 experiences and enjoy the things others enjoy.....making each
<	 other's lives part of their own....sharing, compromising....

    I don't deny that there is some truth here. But I spent a good
    portion of my life compromising for my husband. I was quite willing
    to change for and with him. But isn't one of the gifts of age that
    you have the right to be yourself? Do I have to give up that hard
    won freedom of being me in order to attract a man? I have a fairly
    full life. I'm not sitting in the corner with my life on hold, but
    I've also spent my share of nights crying myself to sleep. Can you
    say otherwise?

    However, most of this is beside the point. I've not been given the
    chance to be myself or to conform to someone else's view of what I
    should be. No one has gotten close enough to find out what I'd do.
    I'm not talking about dating here (I'm too afraid to date anyone that
    was not a friend first, wait till you've had your self confidence
    ground away for 15 years and you may understand) I'd just like
    someone to flirt with, or joke with and be close to.

    It's difficult to start again. Perhaps I just haven't been at it
    long enough (god, it's been 2 years, what does it take?) to knnow
    what I'm doing yet. liesl

    Re .22, Kath, the only thing your being 24 makes me think of is
    that when *I* was 24 I was happily married to Mr. Right, (and we
    had a baby-who now 16 yrs. later attracts more attention from men
    at the age of 15 than I ever have-I don't know why-maybe because
    she's better looking than I ever was, with a better personality
    than I ever had, but, hey that's not my fault).  Anyway, I was happily
    married to Mr. Right for about 7 yrs., and he was both lover and
    friend.  I never thought I was ever going to be looking for Mr.
    Right again, but several years later he was no longer Mr. Right.
     
    When I was 35 I thought I had found another Mr. Right, but he got
    bored with me after 1 1/2 yrs. 
    
    Well, it still seems to me that there aren't very many men around interested
    in women over 40, but maybe it's not my age.  Maybe it's my looks,
    my personality, who the hell knows.  I don't.  (I think it's just
    a combination of the fact that I'm picky and there isn't much out
    there.)  My problem has always been that it's never mutual.
    
    But, I still don't think I fit that stereotype of your peaceful,
    older woman looking for someone to fit in with her set ways.
    
    Lorna
    

	 RE: liesl

	 There are many, many, many, many other places to go out and
	 have fun as a single woman besides nightclubs.
	 

	 RE: lorna

>    But, I still don't think I fit that stereotype of your peaceful,
>    older woman looking for someone to fit in with her set ways.

	 never said you did...in fact, I think both you and liesl
	 don't fit the mold I presented at all!

	 k    

    >had a baby-who now 16 yrs.
     Lorna, has this child aged since .20? (were she is 15) 
    
    8^)

>    Given all the talk in the rape topics that merely placeing ourselves
>    in view of males somehow makes us legitimate targets for violence
>    I'm even less inclined to go to clubs alone than I ever was.
>    Besides, I'm not much for the nightclub scene unless I'm out with
>    friends.
    
    Perhaps an interesting question would be "How many people have managed
    to enter into long term relationships with someone that they met at a
    bar?" My experience, limited as it has been, would lead me to believe
    "not very many." I've often thought about how to get men and women who
    want to meet someone of the opposite sex together in an atmosphere
    unlike the nightclub scene, which would be more conducive to meeting
    "nice" people. When I figure it out, I'll let you all in on the
    franchising details. :-)
    
>    But isn't one of the gifts of age that
>    you have the right to be yourself? Do I have to give up that hard
>    won freedom of being me in order to attract a man?
    
    There's a very fine line between "being yourself" and being closed to
    change. Figuring out when you are compromising your principles and when
    you're being flexible is key.
    
>I'm not sitting in the corner with my life on hold, but
>    I've also spent my share of nights crying myself to sleep.
    
    I have always hated the feeling of loneliness and despair that comes
    from not having anyone to share your life with. I empathise...
    
>    It's difficult to start again. Perhaps I just haven't been at it
>    long enough (god, it's been 2 years, what does it take?) to knnow
>    what I'm doing yet.
    
    One thing that is difficult about the transition from friends to lovers
    (from a guy's perspective) is figuring out when she wants more than a
    friend. One of the key aspects which differentiates lovers from friends
    (in many cases) is sexual activity. There have been many times when I
    was good friends with a woman that I wanted to sleep with, but I never
    broached the subject for fear of losing the friendship if she were to
    say "no." I never wanted to have a woman feel that "he was only around
    me 'cuz he wanted sex."
    
    So I guess what I'm saying is that part of the onus for indicating that
    you are ready or open to more than a platonic relationship is on you.
    If that happened, and more guys were willing to risk rejection from
    friends, perhaps the problem of finding lovers would be reduced...
    
    The Doctah

>    had a baby-who now 16 yrs. later attracts more attention from men
>    at the age of 15 than I ever have-I don't know why-maybe because
>    she's better looking than I ever was, with a better personality
>    than I ever had, but, hey that's not my fault). 
    
    Lorna- you sell yourself short. (I say this having never met her
    daughter.) However, I know an attractive woman when I see one, so
    unless dear Melissa (I think that's her name) is gorgeous, you are
    being overly self-deprecating.
    
>    Well, it still seems to me that there aren't very many men around interested
>    in women over 40, but maybe it's not my age.  Maybe it's my looks,
>    my personality, who the hell knows.  I don't. 
    
    Well, first of all, you aren't over 40. :-) All I can say is that you
    might be looking in the wrong places. I guess I'm not sure why you
    aren't pestered by guys.
    
> (I think it's just
>    a combination of the fact that I'm picky and there isn't much out
>    there.) 
    
    Maybe that's it. Maybe you are picky. If so, maybe you should examine
    your criteria- just make sure that they all still apply (I'm _not_
    saying to lower them.)
    
    Good luck finding him, Lorna. You deserve a good, loving man. :-)
    
    The Doctah

    Re .28, thanks, Mark. :-)
    
    Re .26, Gail, it's how the birthdays fall.  See, I just turned 40
    so I was 24 16 yrs. ago, and I was 24 when I had Melissa, but Melissa
    won't be 16 until February, got it? :)
    
    Re .28, again, of course "dear Melissa" is "gorgeous"!  Whatdaya
    think?  :-)  (i think so anyway!)
    
    Re .27, oddly enough, I did meet the longest relationship of my
    life so far in a bar!  I met my ex-husband in a bar and we were
    married for 12 1/2 yrs. and I was actually happy and in love for
    8 1/2 yrs. which seems amazing to me now.  But, I was only 21 when
    I met him, and I don't view the bar scene as an option anymore.
     I think of bars as being full of young women in their 20's and
    men in their 40's who want to date them! (ha-ha)
    
    Lorna
    
    
    

    I've been divorced for 10 years.  First time around, I made a
    calculated decision that I didn't want to let "this one" disappear
    - and he hasn't.  We still have a kid in common and maintain minimal
    contact as a result.  No super hard feelings, we simply grew up
    to be different people.
    
    Next time (if there is a next time - recently I despair of ever
    having another date, let alone marriage) I want to marry someone
    who is both my friend and lights my fire.  I hope I do the same
    for him.  Friend to me implies liking me as I am, warts and all,
    and wanting to be with me anyway.  Lighting my fire should be obvious,
    but it seems to me marriage can't work if that isn't an element
    (and my parents retained it until the day of my mother's death,
    so I know it's possible).
    
    This is horribly written, but hopefully you get the idea.
    
    Alison

    
.28>    All I can say is that you
.28>    might be looking in the wrong places. I guess I'm not sure why you
.28>    aren't pestered by guys.

	 Hahaha..if I could have a dime for everytime I've heard a man
	 say this to me, I could retire and drive as many lamborghinis
	 as I wanted....and live in a mansion......

	 yet...alas...I still don't get many dates.....


	 think I should start wearing deodorant?  :-)

	 kat

	 

>       <<< Note 822.29 by DZIGN::STHILAIRE "Food, Shelter & Diamonds" >>>

>     I think of bars as being full of young women in their 20's and
>    men in their 40's who want to date them! (ha-ha)

	 In most of the bars I've been in recently, they've been full
	 of 18+ children with wristbands (denoting that they can't
	 drink).......sometimes even *I* feel old.....

	 kath    
    
    

    An observation:
    
    I am stating what I've read between many lines in these replies.
    When you speak of a friend, you are speaking of the many facets
    of a person on an intellectual level.  Common interests.  Things
    that you can enjoy together endlessly today and over the years.
    The lover is the animal part of our nature.  The physical.  The
    pitter pat, raised blood pressure, excitement..focused on sex. 
    The gentle touch, stroking, flowers, kissing, and then...
    
    The intellectual levels of friendship are sustainable enjoyment...love.
    The physical, while it seems to be all there is when we are young,
    is not sustainable.  It doesn't feed us.  It isn't even love.
    
    So many have spoken of the relationships that are hot, then cool
    before ending in disappointment.  Others have talked of relationships
    that start as friends and spread to a physical relationship.  Still
    others are lucky to find both.  (I do think it's mostly luck.) 
    In any event, I think the choice of friend first is a wise one if
    you're looking for a lasting relationship.  Testing the friend by
    talking about your emotional needs seems wise as well.  It seemed
    to work.  It would have changed some of my relationships, friends
    that I was very attracted to but didn't want to hurt by turning
    the relationship toward SEX.  So I think that was the best solution
    that I have ever heard.
    
    Bud

    After years of following bad relationship decisions, I married my
    best friend.  I know I got lucky too.  But I did learn it's better
    to follow your heart and not your hormones !  And as it turns out,
    I find that you can be VERY close to your best friend,    8^)
    
    
    
    				Jerry ...

    The thing is - there are no guarantees.  I have been fortunate in
    my lifetime in many ways.  I married my true love and each year I
    knew him our life together got better!  I used the word fortunate
    because when I look back I think one of the keys was that we grew
    at the same rate and in the same direction.  We enjoyed each
    other and the same activities, and we were both interested in 
    learning new things and going new places.  We had a son, who has
    been the joy of my life.  On the minus side  we were still in
    love when my husband died of cancer when he was 30.  So I have
    been raising our son without the advantage of his dad for fifteen 
    years.
    
    I had a relationship since then with a man nine years younger.  It
    had it's good points and bad ones.  We still keep in touch from
    time to time.
    
    A few years ago I met a man and we developed an enjoyable friend-
    ship.  I am very happy to be going to his wedding celebration in
    a few weeks.  His soon to be wife is a delightful person and I
    look forward to be friends with both of them individually and
    as a couple.
    
    Life offers some amazing experiences both good and bad.  We are 
    only able to live one day at a time.  I believe that I
    must be the best I can be each day and try and try not to 
    project expectations on others.

    I believe that this is not an either or proposition. I'm with the groups
    that says look for both! 

    With all good intentions I married my best friend. I thought that was a
    sensible, stable move. I was wrong because if the "chemistry" isn't
    there, it isn't there. It can't be manufactured. It doesn't take long
    to realize that that part of a relationship is just as important as the
    friendship part. We didn't part as enemies, after all we we're just 2
    friends that should have kept it at that.

    Thankfully my current relationship is a good mix of the two, I wouldn't
    have it any other way. Live and learn...

    Gail

    
    What I'll write here is just from my own experience,  I can't say
    I know how "older" (not meant as any sort of insult) women feel,
    as I'm only 23.
    
    The fourth day I was at college, I met my first "serious" boyfriend.
    At first it wsa a new experience, and I enjoyed it very much.  After
    about 2 years, however, things really started to cool down on the
    romantic/lover side of things, but we remained good friends.  I 
    remained in that relationship for 3 more years because I was convinced
    that I would never be able to meet anyone who treated me as nicely
    as Jon did.  Anyway, earlier this year it finally got to the point
    where we would have killed each other had we continued to live
    together.  I decided that I really could deal with life on my own
    and that eventually I would meet someone I might want to go on a date
    with even if that took several years.  FWIW, Jon and I are still
    friends and I can still talk with him.
    
    Anyway, one thing that really helped me deal with being on my own was
    that I went out and got involved in an activity that had always
    interested me, but that was completely separate from Jon.  I went down
    to the MIT radio station, said I was an alumni, and that I wanted to
    be an engineer.  I made a lot of new friends, and am continuing to have
    a great time.  Needless to say, the people I've met at the station have
    similar interests as me, and yup, that's exactly where I met my new
    buddy.  Who happens to be both an excellent friend and lover. And
    it took only three months.  
    
    My advice to people who are sick of the life they lead and are generally 
    bored would be to just sit down and think of some things that they've
    always wanted do or things that just interest them and then try them
    all until they find one they really enjoy.  They'll probably have fun
    at it, and since others who also enjoy the activity would probably
    have similar interests, the chances of finding someone who'd they'd
    want to spend time with are much greater.
    
    I'm not sure how this would work for "older" women (once again no
    insult intended), but it is definitely the advice I'd give my
    friends.
    
    Lisa (somewhat long-winded today)    

    
    Addendum to .37:
    
    FWIW, I'm much happier being close to someone who is both friend
    and lover.  I would definitely hold out for someone who was both.
    
    Lisa

    I infer from a few of these replies that some people think it's
    supposed to be the "big bang" forever.  That takes a lot of *work*,
    vigilance, and innovation, even when you're not feeling like it,
    are tired, or would rather do something else.
    
    I know I'm lucky; I've been in my relationship for 9 years, and
    spent 3 of those years infatuated.  That's pretty good, compared
    to most people I know.  But the "spark", "big bang", infatuation,
    whatever you call it, can't last forever, at least not without
    *a lot* of work.  This of course, does not mean, that we love one
    another any less.  Quite the contrary.
    

    I have to agree with those who think it takes both friendship and
    physical attraction to make a relationship work.  The "big bang"
    may not last forever, but if you don't have it in the beginning,
    the whole thing seems pretty pointless to me.  I don't criticize
    those who choose friendship, but I can't get interested in having
    a relationship with somebody who doesn't turn me on regardless of
    how much I may like their personality.  (I've tried to make
    relationships of this type work before and I always have ended up
    feeling that I led someone on when what I was really doing was trying
    to force myself to feel physical attraction for a nice person who
    didn't turn me on.  And, whoever it was who said it can't be forced,
    is right.  It's either there or it isn't.)  Sometimes I wonder if
    physical attraction in a relationship is as important to other people
    as it is to me?  And, sometimes I wonder if some people just find
    a larger percentage of people attractive than I do?
    
    Lorna
    

    
    I have been divorced for over 20 years, I am still holding out for
    the "right man". There have been 2 long term serious relationships
    in those twenty years and a few short not so serious ones. I won't
    even discuss the marriage, that was all wrong from the beginning.
    In the first after divorce serious relationship, we were frienda
    first, and had a wonderful relationship together. So why did it
    end? He wanted more children, I didn't. We had bothe been married
    and bothe had 2 kids, a boy and a girl each, I felt that was enough.
    He wanted more children bad enough that after a 4 year relationship,
    he went to find someone to have children with. That was 16 years
    ago, and we are still friends. He has married and has two more
    children. 
    
    The second one was another 4 year long, but live together,
    relationship. He is getting married next month and I'm having a
    real hard time dealing with it. We too were friends first, we had
    what I thought was an ideal relationship. We were able to talk through
    any thing and never had serious arguments. He still thinks we can
    be friends, but I don't know yet. I'm invited to his wedding and
    I'm going to have to here him say his vows to really know that it's
    over between us. We have not lived together for 5 years, but we
    still had a relationship with frequent refrences to when we would
    get back together. Then out of the blue, he called and said he wanted
    to be the first to tell me he was getting married, since both his
    and my familiy were expecting some kind of announcement.   I would
    really like to be his frind foe ever, but I'll have to wait and
    see. 
    
    Maybe it's my age, but I would have a real hard time marrying someone
    because they were a terriffic lover, there is too much time spent
    out of bed. If he were a good friend and a lousy lover, we would
    have to just be good friends. 

    
    	I recently turned 26, and for the first time I'm beginning to
    	think about committing into a serious relationship.  I can't 
    	say I want to get married because I don't know that I do, but
    	I do know I found someone I would like to be with for a long 
    	time, someone I trust implicitly, someone who floats my boat 
    	at both high and low tides.  =8-)  This relationship occurred
    	when I least expected it after what seemed an eternity (only
    	10 years) of times I'd spent with either lovers who weren't 
    	my friends, or with friends who weren't lovers.
    
    	I can't imagine "settling" on a permanent basis for any-body
    	(and I do mean body) who was anything less than both.
    
    	Also, I think that regardless of age, it's difficult to meet 
    	people.  I know some people who'll go out with any organism
    	sporting a pulse.  For those of us who are more particular,
    	it's a long, drawn-out, and sometimes lonely process.
    
    	Carla
    

    Trust me, it's worth the wait !
    
    "Cuz it's sad to belong to someone else when the right one comes
    along ..."
    
    
    
    
    				Jerry

     RE:.43
    

 �   "Cuz it's sad to belong to someone else when the right one comes
 �   along ..."
    
    
    You never belong to anyone but yourself.
    
    /bruce

     �   "Cuz it's sad to belong to someone else when the right one comes
     �   along ..."
    
    
        You never belong to anyone but yourself.
    
        /bruce

    You're PROUD of this? Not me man. I've given other people many pieces of
    me. One person in particular owns a big piece of my heart. It's scary, but
    worth it.

    On the other hand I agree that the notion of belonging to the wrong person
    when the "right person" comes along is stupid. Knight in shining armor?
    HAH!

	-- Charles

    re:              <<< Note 822.46 by OXNARD::HAYNES "Charles Haynes" >>>
                                  -< How sad >-
    
    I give of myself quite freely, yet i still belong to no one but
    myself...   if i belong to someone else, how can i continue to
    give?
    
    /bruce

    Most people would give almost anything they have for their best
    friend.  It always strikes me a bit funny when they won't for their
    SO.  My wife and I belong to each other on an emotional level but
    still remain "our own people".  Works for us ....
    
    
    
    
    					Jerry ...

    re .48
    "Best Friend" is someone you love.  Most people only have one or
    two that ever reach the pinnacle deserving of that title.  I wonder
    what it is like never to have such a "friend".  Sure, give anything
    for this person.  (I once attacked a professional football lineman
    and his two buddies because one of them said something derogatory
    about my friend.=suicidal?)
    
    Funny thing is, not all SO's are so loved.  (Few of any people are
    so loved.)  Too often the main purpose of the relationship is
    physiological or social.
    
    Bud
    
    

    This is just another confirmation that you can have both a friend and a
    lover.  I met my husband in graduate school.  I was just starting there
    after getting a MS degree at another school, he had been there a year. 
    I had also just broken up with someone after 4 1/2 years and was
    leaving one of my best friends (male) at my previous school.  I really
    needed a friend and liked John from the day I met him.  He was going
    with someone at the time (and he is a "one woman" man) so I figured at
    least we could be friends.  We took most of the same classes and were
    at school a lot at the same time and became friends very quickly.
    
    After a month and a half of this he asked me out.  I was shocked since
    I had heard so much about how great his girlfriend was, but I was 
    also pleased since I really was attracted to him.  Turns out he had
    broken up with his girlfriend just so he could ask me out (he really is
    a "one woman" man!).  It took us a little over a month after that before 
    we decided to get married and we got married 5 months after that.
    
    After 18 years he's still my best friend.
    
    						Jan

    This is for me one of the most interesting topics in this or any other
    conference. Most repliers seem to agree that both in one is worth
    waiting for, but lots of  related points have been made and
    related questions asked.
    
    For me, too, lover + friend = 1 person is how it has to be to consider
    marriage or any other long-term commitment. But, the question is, how
    well do things have to be going to decide "this is it"? 
    
    Unless you can say things are going perfectly, there's always the
    chance that, if you settle with the person you're currently with, there
    will be someone else along with whom things could have worked out
    better.
    
    I'm glad to say I'm not in the front line of this problem at the
    moment, but it would be good to see how others feel about it.
    
    	Andrew.

    Somewhere, somehow, someday, I am going to meet a man who accepts
    me *just the way I am*, poor housekeeping, religious background,
    and all.  And I will accept him *just the way he is*, not requiring
    major personality changes to be satisfactory.  That will be when
    I know that I've met "the right guy".
    
    He probably won't be the *only* "right guy for me" in the universe.
    But at that point, I will stop looking.  We will undoubtedly argue
    and scrap and drive each other crazy from time to time.  That is
    simply part of who I am.  And we both will grow and change as we
    go on - but if we love that basic bedrock character in each other,
    we will learn to accomodate the changes and rejoice in the growth.
    
    The key is that at some point, you agree to stop looking to see
    if there is someone even better out there, because what you have
    is so good that you can't bear to let it go.
    
    Alison

    re -1   What she said...I found the man that fits most of the bill but he 
    hasn't gotten around to understanding the last paragraph...
    
    Gail

                     <<< Note 822.52 by FSHQA2::AWASKOM >>>
>>> The key is that at some point, you agree to stop looking to see
>>> if there is someone even better out there, because what you have
>>> is so good that you can't bear to let it go.
    
    This is a pretty hard concept for most people to come to grips with. 
    Part of the problem might be human nature: once you've got something
    good, you wonder if maybe this is just "good" but not "great."  And so
    on.  The eternal quest for nirvana!
    
    Almost everytime I've found someone I've really liked and started to
    become comfortable with a little nagging voice warns me to keep
    detached since there might be "something better somewhere."  It takes a
    lot of work to keep that voice quiet.

    I also relate to 

     >  The key is that at some point, you agree to stop looking to see
     >  if there is someone even better out there, because what you have
     >  is so good that you can't bear to let it go.
      
    I agree with Jim though, it's tough.  I've met someone who is both friend
    and lover.  There was little question of how well we fit together, even
    when we first met.  We have our differences, and have had our difficult
    times - both through circumstance, and our own personal clashes.  But
    we're still here, in love and committed to each other (and engaged :-).

    It's kind of tough because ours is a long distance relationship, and
    he's my first true love.  I can't even imagine letting him go, but I
    have wondered if "Mr. Even-Better" is out there.  This was a slight
    problem at first, and then I realized that Mr. Even-Better could
    *always* be out there.  I could find him, then find Mr. Better-Still,
    and then find my original love, and discover that he was the best one
    of all of them, if I had just waited a little longer to find this out.  

    What it comes down to is that nobody is going to be perfect, and have
    *everything* that you want.  Person B may have what Person A is
    lacking, but he's sure to be lacking something still.  I don't believe
    that the *perfect* man exists, but I think that there are a few who
    come close for each of us.      8^)


    As to the question about "friend or lover," I agree with those who say
    that infatuation is short-lived.  It waxes and wanes, but by its nature
    I don't think that it can be sustained indefinitely.  You need for him
    to also be a friend, to see you through the "waning" stages.  8^)

    I do have a question about marrying "friends only" though?  Why do it? 
    If this person is "friend only," doesn't it make sense to keep this
    person as a friend, and not marry him?  Is it so necessary to get
    married that it's worth marrying someone who doesn't excite you, even a
    little bit?  I have alot of wonderful male friends, who just don't
    float my boat.  I never seriously thought about turning anything into a
    romantic relationship, because it just wouldn't have felt right.  I'd
    rather be single, be able to spend time with my friends, doing
    friend-things, and keeping my options open.  This isn't to say that
    I've never had romantic inclinations toward friends, but I've always
    *known* which ones would never be romantic relationships.  Maybe this
    could change over time, but marriage is a pretty big step to take on
    such a gamble.

    Just one woman's opinion...

    Sarah

    Thanks for the views on the question I posed a few replies back (I
    think that's a better way of describing the responses than "answers").
    
    I particularly like .55, with those characters "Mr Even Better" and his
    friends.
    
    	Andrew.

    just a thought,
    
    what if one if us did find mr/ms perfect and then found that
    we *weren't* mr/ms perfect for them?
    
    Bonnie

    If you care enough, as the old saying goes ... you'll let 'em go
    free.  It happens ... but life is far too short to spend it being
    miserable with someone, or making someone else feel the same.  I
    think you need to be realistic in any relationship, and be aware
    of the other person's needs/feelings and not just your own.
    
    
    				Jerry ...

>    what if one if us did find mr/ms perfect and then found that
>    we *weren't* mr/ms perfect for them?

Boggle, boggle.  This goes back to what I said before...isn't mutual
interest *part* of your definition of perfection?  How can someone be
perfect if they are missing that very fundamental aspect?

Like I said, I am at a total loss for how someone can fall in love with
someone who doesn't love them.

D!

    D!  I was assuming mutual interest and attraction but that it
    would be possible for person x to be *everything* z wanted, but
    that z could still lack something or have something that wasn't
    part of x's dream of perfection.
    
    Is that more clear?
    
    Bonnie

>    D!  I was assuming mutual interest and attraction but that it
>    would be possible for person x to be *everything* z wanted, but
>    that z could still lack something or have something that wasn't
>    part of x's dream of perfection.
 
I guess I would say that X should add to their list of "desireable
qualities" the quality of that person also considering X perfect.
As in, if Z is looking for something X doesn't have, then Z therefore
lacks something X is looking for, and thereby doesn't meet all the
qualification on the list, so is not perfect.

>    Is that more clear?

I guess not, since I ended up saying the same thing in response.  :-)

Err...it just occured to me that I seem to have a fundamental difference
in approaching this than the other people replying to this note.  I do
not search for the perfect person, but for the perfect partner.  Or,
more accurately, for the perfect relationship.  And any relationship
where one person is missing something they require for perfection is
obviously not perfect.)

Since I have never had this problem, perhaps the solution would be to
stop looking for a particular *person*, and start looking for a particular
*relationship*, since it is really the relationship that has to be
perfect (or reasonably close) like I do!  (It's true, in those silly
excerices where you list the things that are most important to you in the
MOTAS, I often list things that could more appropriately describe the
relationship rather than a specific person.)

D! (who_places_*equal*_amounts_of_interest_in_the_top_10_of_her_list)

    Bonnie -
    
    I have been on the side of this where I was 'right' for the guy,
    but he was 'not quite right' for me.  Things were so close that
    the relationship has lasted for years, in spite of the fact that
    there were aspects of it that were severely disfunctional and caused
    me no end of grief and aggravation.   Telling this man that
    I had (finally) found someone else to go out with was (ahem)
    'difficult'.  The response back from the man was amazing - "That
    is wonderful.  I'm really happy for you.  Enjoy yourself, and please
    keep in touch.  I want to know how you're doing."
    
    As a previous noter said, at some point you must be able to let
    the loved one go to grow in the directions necessary.  He has been
    able to do this with style and grace, and I bless him for it.
    
    Alison

    Bonnie - 
    
    I don't think that any one person could possibly fulfill ALL of my
    needs - be everything to me.  _I_ am the only person who can do that
    for me.  Therefore - when I find myself thinking that this or that
    person is "perfect" for me I start questioning my perspective and vice
    versa.  I must be looking at that person through rose colored glasses
    if they _seem_ perfect to me.  No one is perfect otherwise they
    wouldn't have the human qualities that we find so endearing and
    maddening.   Personally - I don't want someone who is perfect for me.
    I prefer the imperfect to add dimension, challenge and the opportunity
    for growth to the relationship.
    
    Nanci

    Nanci -
    
    I agree with you entirely, I wouldn't expect another person to fufill
    all of my needs or be everthing to me also..
    
    and I also agree that when you start to see someone as 'perfect'
    you are wearing rose colored glasses and are 'in love' with an
    image not the real person.
    
    I was just trying to poke a bit at the idea of waiting for mr/ms
    perfect rather than settling for what you have that is good in
    the hear and now.
    
    Bonnie

    When you "see" perfect in someone, you begin to "expect" perfect
    in them.  And when they fall short of these impossible expectations,
    troubles will start.  Two people may be perfect for each other (like
    my mariage proves) but far from perfect themselves (we prove that
    too ...)
    
    
    
    				Jerry

	 I think someone can be perfect for me.....including all their
	 idiosyncrasies and and problems.  Someone perfect for me
	 would accept me with all the problems I have and complement
	 me.  Someone perfect for me would work with me, and I with
	 them, to make things work.

	 The person perfect for me will never be perfect.  Nor will I.

	 kath

    re: .66
    
    Kath,  you said it 'perfectly' for me.  I also realized that 
    a very important criteria (for me) is that each of us be someone
    that the other accepts totally with good and 'bad' points.  
    Otherwise, we're not right for each other, plain and simple.

    Karen
    

>    Kath,  you said it 'perfectly' for me.  I also realized that 
>    a very important criteria (for me) is that each of us be someone
>    that the other accepts totally with good and 'bad' points.  

Hey, that's what I said!  Good, then I am *not* all alone in defining
perfection partially in terms of mutuality!

D! 

            Kath .66  Triple ditto!! Couldn't have said it better
    
    ..dale