Conference turris::womannotes-v2

>1) what is your opinion on nipple piercings, body jewelry, etc. in general. 

My mother wouldn't let me pierce my ears because only "gypsies and tramps" do
it. By the time I was old enough to ignore her, I didn't really feel like it
anymore.

I really didn't know a single think about nipple piercing until I read the base
note. I wonder what sort of body jewelry other cultures use.

I'd be afraid to touch pierced nipples, wondering if they hurt.

I am _amazed_ you could still nurse. Makes me want to know more about the
process of both piercing and nursing.
	Mez

    I can't imagine why anyone would want to do that. It definitely strikes
    me as masochistic/self mutilating. I would not want my wife or
    daughters to do this.
    
    Since you are an adult and capable of seeing both sides of the issue, I
    think it is up to you to decide if this is what you want. I can't help
    but think that nipple piercing is a weird practice, but so what? You're
    not hurting anybody else...
    
    Whatever floats your boat, as they say.
    
    The Doctah
    
    ps- Let us know how things work out.

    I think our bodies are beautiful.  I think that "adorning" our bodies
    with jewelry, (nipple rings), takes away from the natural beauty.  Why
    mess around with something that is perfect to begin with?
    
    Just one woman's opinion.
    
    -Dotti.

    It sounds painful to me!!!  I wish you could tell us WHY you would want
    to do something like this!!
    
    Just an opinion!!
    
    Virginia

    I think the words self-mutilating sum it up. Have you ever worn hoop
    earings and gotten them caught in your clothing or hair, ouch. I can't
    imagine risking that happen in such a sensitive area. I read the base
    note but I sure don't see the point of it. 
    
    To each their own, I guess...
    
    Gail 

    I have had pierced ears since I was 12, but seldom wear earrings.
    It's nice to know I can, though.  Nobody told me getting my ears
    pierced was for tramps, or was mutilating my body, so I had no problems
    getting it done.  
    
    I, personally, wouldn't want to get my nipples pierced because
    a.  it would probably hurt
    b.  if I had to wear studs or hoops in them to keep the holes in
    	the nipples open, would they show through a bra?  I wouldn't
    	want to advertise they were pierced....
    c.  I'm just not into that kind of thing.
    
    The only woman I have seen with pierced nipples was the porn star
    Jamie Lee Robins (I think the flick was "10 little maidens", a takeoff
    on Agatha Christie's "10 little indians").  *She* seemed to definitely
    get off on it, but then again, she was handling a cat o' nine tails
    at the time, so..... ;).
    
    I dunno - if you're going to do it, I'd recommend you get it done by
    someone who knows what they're doing, and properly sterilizes the
    area/equipment beforehand. Get info on how long to keep the initial set
    of rings/studs in, how often to put alcohol or sea-breeze on the holes,
    how often to turn the rings/studs (like with pierced ears)....... Also,
    be aware that there may be some metals you are allergic to (my pierced
    ears can't deal with anything but gold - but it took a few infections
    and allergic reactions to find that out)....
    
    -Jody
    

    I guess I see what you're planning as in some way loving, and asserting
    the femaleness of your body, and I'd go for it!
    
    Briana

    
    Hmmmmm...I can see where it could be visually erotic, but I think
    it would spoil, or detract from the soft, silky, cushiony tactile
    sensation when touching the breasts.  It evokes s&mish mental pictures
    im my mind...
    
    Carol

    The latest issue of RE/Search magazine (although it seems more like a
    book to me) is called Modern Primitives.  The entire issue deals with
    body decoration of all sorts from tattoos to body piercings and
    scarification.
    
    Its very interesting and bizarre reading....not for everyone. Newbury
    Comics and Trident Book Store, both on Newbury Street in Boston sells
    them.
     

Is there something about nipple piercing that is specific to bondage? Or is
this sort of body altering usually done by the same folks who are into bondage?
	Mez

I've been fascinated with the idea of pierced nipples on women for years, but
have never been fortunate enough to be involved in a relationship with any
woman who had pierced nipples.  I'd like to be, though.  It's one of my main
fantasies.

I find the idea very erotic, and think that it would add to the physical beauty
and tactile sensations of the breasts, both for the beholder/toucher and the
owner/touchee.

I can't imagine it causing any problems if there were no complications.  It
would seem that it would be a good idea to have some experience with having
pierced ears first, to at least determine in advance of nipple piercing whether
or not you have any allergies to metal.  It would seem, too, that if there was a
problem with the rings or whatever showing through some garments that they could
be left out while that garment was being worn.  I personally would let them show
unless I was at work or some similar situation.

I've never considered having my nipples pierced, but that's probably because
I've never been in a serious relationship with anyone who expressed an
interest in it and also because, being a male, they're pretty small.  If I was
seriously involved with someone who expressed a desire for me to have mine
pierced I'd probably do it.

I'd do it if I were you.

					Larry
					  ~

As I said in .12, I think pierced nipples are very erotic.  I'm not into bondage,
or S&M, though.

					Larry
					  ~

    Excuse me, but is there really a note file called Alt.Sex.Bondage
    or is that a joke???  I never heard or saw anything like that.
    
    

    Just curious...what was in .14 that it had to be removed?  I always
    die of curiosity when that happens!

    the writer apparently removed it his/her self...
    
    Bonnie

It's on Usenet -- contributions come mostly from outside Dec.  (Universities
and such).  There's also an "alt.sex" if your tastes don't run to bondage.

Note: Usened has a hierarchy of "newsgroups": comp... for computers
(comp.sys.vms), rec... for recreation (rec.arts.movies), sci... for
science (sci.physics.fusion).

There are also some "alternate" groups that are even less managed than
the "normal" groups.  alt.sex and alt.sex.bondage are two examples.

To "subscribe", you need a copy of the newsreader and the name of a local
Usenet server node.  See the UPSAR::NEWS-BACKBONE notesfile for details.

Note: Usenet-in-Dec is still in a developmental stage.  Expect some
difficulties in getting started.

Martin.

    Re .16: Not a notes file - sounds like a USENET news group, from the
    name. Dunno if it's a real one or not, but I wouldn't be terribly
    surprised...
    
    Re .0: First reaction: OUCH!!! 
    
    For the opinion poll: no way would I do that myself - and I'm sure I
    would be utterly flustered if I went out with someone and discovered
    that he had. It says something dark and unsavory to me, and seems about
    as sensual as a fist. As someone else put it, whatever floats your
    boat; just don't be surprised if something that turns you on happens to
    turn other people off.
    
    -b

                      
    	                   
    I would think that the person doing the piercing would have to be
    pretty accurate with that gun!! Nippleiptimy, Dr. of Nippleitimonamous!!
    Youch!!!!!!!!!!!!! A free clinic at the Mall would certainly liven
    up a Saturday!!

    Now I've been known to do some fairly unconventional things in my 
    lifetime, but since you asked: it does sound pretty disgusting to
    me.
    
    But hey, they're *your* nipples. (Better yours than mine - far, far
    better.)
    
      Alan

    Not from person but... its my impression that your nipples tend to stay
    erect the entire time you're wearing a "nipple ring."  Which can either
    cause extremely erotic feelings or, after awhile, uncomfortableness.
    
    I've also read that some women who do wear nipple rings do so without
    wearing a bra.  Maybe to bring attention to that part of their body?

    I've never seen women with nipple rings, but I've seen gay guys
    with not only nipple rings, but with big loops of chain linking
    the nipple rings together. I thought that they were very trusting
    that someone wouldn't come along and give those chains a good
    yank....they were walking bare-chested down the public streets,
    making it a very risky proposition.
    
    I think it is repulsive, personally. I consider it self-mutilation
    on anyone. Besides, I don't think women's nipples need additional
    improvement %^).
    
    -roger
     

    whoa, kinky stuff! But it's your body and doesn't hurt anyone else
    so why not, if you want it, do it. Having known people who have lost
    physical sensation in body parts that have been altered (both by
    intentional and unintentional means) I would never take the chance
    on losing that in my nipples. I mean, who cares if your ear lobes
    don't get excited? Maybe I'm too much of a hedonist to risk it. ;*)
    liesl

Took me a while to answer this one, because I wasn't quite sure what I wanted
to say......

Personally, for me....I would have a hard time doing it, because everytime the
thought crosses my mind, my nipples hurt and I squirm at the thought
of how painful it must be to have to done (in fact, at the moment, I'm
holding my chest, because the thought hurts!) :-)  On me, I don't believe 
it would be attractive, nor a form of expressionism....at least not the way I 
feel I would like to express myself.


However....I believe that your body is your temple and you have the right to
adorn that temple in any way that you feel you want to, and are comfortable 
with, giving you the free right of expressionism with your own body.  If that 
expressionism comes in the form of earrings, nose rings (which my mother 
STILL swears is the next whole I'll get in my head), nipple rings, tattoos, 
etc, etc, etc.  

It's your body, and its important for you to have a form of expressing
yourself thru your own body (of course that right ends when you go
beyond certain bounds, such as public nudity and such).  The opinions of 
others are not important--its your opinion that is important.  If you 
express yourself the way you want to express yourself, then you will
attract those that accept you for being you....

Aren't the people that accept you for being yourself the ones you want to
attract anyway?

kath

    I'm rather surprised at the number of folks who think of this as
    "self-mutilation". As the base note points out, is this really
    any more so than putting holes in your ears? The only difference
    is that ear-piercing is an old and accepted practice while
    nipple-piercing isn't.
    
    (And Liesl, there are quite a few people who'd by upset at losing
    feeling in their ear-lobes. On some people, that is as erogenous
    an area as breasts.)
    
    Quite frankly, I don't understand why anyone would want to do it,
    but then, I feel the same about pierced ears, and I've never found
    jewelry in general to be especially interesting. I guess I'm just
    a natural kinda guy.
    
    --- jerry

    Re .27:
    
>    I'm rather surprised at the number of folks who think of this as
>    "self-mutilation". As the base note points out, is this really
>    any more so than putting holes in your ears? 
    
    Not any more so, no - but then, I think that ear-piercing is "self-
    mutilation" too. (This from one who has 20-year-old holes in her ears
    from a teen-age whim.) I realize that "mutilation" is a loaded word,
    but I can't think of a milder alternative that still carries some
    weight. I don't go around cringing in revulsion whenever I see pierced
    ears or tattoos (or pierced noses or face-lifts or liposuction - no,
    cancel that; I _do_ cringe in revulsion at liposuction!). That is, I
    think people are entitled to choose to take such steps with their own
    bodies if they want to; but I'd like them to be aware that they are
    _choosing_ to inflict permanent damage (however mild, however
    fashionable) on healthy tissue.
    
    (Amen on the earlobes, by the way, even if the only earlobe-nibbling
    I've gotten lately is from my cat...)
    
    -b

    
    As one who has 5 artificially punched holes between my two earlobes,
    I think you shold go for it, especially if you feel strongly about it
    and you think it would make you feel better about yourself.
    
    And if someone doesn't like it and gives you a hard time, tell them
    not to look at you, then find someone else who will appreciate the
    way you are.
    
    Lisa

    RE:29
    
    >  As one who has 5 artificially punched holes between my two earlobes,
    
    Exactly where between the two earlobes would these holes be located?
    
    %^)
    
    -roger                   
    

    re .28, Beth-
    
    > I realize that "mutilation" is a loaded word, but I can't think of 
    > a milder alternative that still carries some weight.
    
    I find it a loaded word, too; perhaps "modification" carries less
    antagonism, for those times when we are talking about other people's 
    choices.
    
    DougO

    And of course, one could chain their baby to the breast.......
    
    Seriously tho, I'd think you might want to try spring loaded loops or
    something before trying permanent piercing. See how it looks, see how
    you like it. You may want to have someone (yourself) pinch your nipples 
    for about 5-10 minutes to see if you want to live that experience for a
    few hours after the piercing. 
    
    I recommend a bit of experimenting, even with super glue until it wears
    off, to see how life will be and if it's really worth the effort and
    the expense.
    
    Ken

This reply is from the anonymous base noter.
	Mez

---------------------------------------------------------------------------


A lot of people have been asking why I would want to do such a thing.  There
are a lot of reasons, some too personal to talk about, some I'll talk about
privately, but not on =wn=.  Neverthless, here is an excerpt from some mail
I sent to a friend who was similarly bewildered.

--------------

Well, lots of reasons that I am sure you wouldn't understand, nor be sympathetic
with.

Because it's different.  Totally outside of society's "norms".  And I feel
different and I want to do something that says I'm different, I want to be
different, and I don't care what (collective) you think.  And it's not just
a little difference, and easy difference, a temporary different, like
cutting your hair or wearing different clothes.  It is a difference that
becomes, literally and physically, a part of you.

Because I think it's sexy, and <my SO> thinks it's sexy, and because I want to 
attract the type of man who would think it was sexy.  (Or woman.)  It is
sexy inherently I think, but also because it is kind of a signal of
unconventional views on sexuality.  Certainly everyone would know that no
typical "lie there and sweat" type of woman lies beneath (or above) those
nipples.

Because it is sort of a rite of passage into "the scene".  I'll bet you 
didn't want this answer, but I feel I have sort of become part of an "under-
ground".  It feels good to belong, to have partners in oppression, and sort
of a common "enemy."  And this is one more step towards really joining that
sort of "elite ranks" of that club.  The pain is a big part of this; the
way many aboriginal tribes use bodily modification or scarification to mark
passage into adulthood, or even how in the traditional marriage, the breaking
of the woman's hymen is supposed to represent her passing into the state of
marriage. Having gone through that pain makes me in some way more "aware".

Because <SO> wants me to; and modifying my body for him seems like the
ultimate act of love.  To him I entrust not only my heart, but my body.
It speaks of commitment because it is so real and so much a part of me.
Many people use sex that way; but sex is a temporary fleeting gift, this
is a gift that will last as long as we are lovers.

And because I think it would freak the hell out of most of my past lovers
if they ever found out.  :-)  

-------------

Also, on the subject of anonymity, I am not paranoid, and yes, some people
know who I am.  If you do and you want to talk about this, or you think you
do but aren't sure, go ahead and write.  I won't be offended.  I am posting
this anonymously only because I am afraid that certain people in =wn= would
be made uncomfortable meeting me if they associated this topic with me, and
also because I thought knowing who I was might bias the replies.

I found a place that does the piercing, but they don't have anesthesia 
available.  In fact, it seems to be difficult to find someone who is both
qualified to do piercing and qualified to do anesthesia.  So tenative plans
are to have it done this week...sans anesthesia.  I pretty much know how
it works, but I will be calling the woman who does the piercings tonight to
find out the exact details of what she does, and make sure her methods
seem safe.  And yes, I am scared, terrified even, but excited, too.

For educational purposes, and for posterity, if the moderators agree it's
appropriate, I will post a description of what happened and how it worked
when/if I get it done.

    
    re: .30
    
    They're in my forehead, silly.   Where else would they be?
    
    8^} x 10000000000
    
    Lisa

    
>>>  It is a difference that becomes, literally and physically, a part of you.

	Forgive me for asking, but wouldn't that difference mean more if it 
	came from within than without?  I mean, from the sounds of this, you 
	seem to weigh alot in "being different" on this act of nipple 
	piercing.  JUST MY HUMBLE OPINION, but, if that's true, I think 
	that's shallow.

>>> I'll bet you didn't want this answer, but I feel I have sort of become 
>>> part of an "under-ground".  

	Ah.  Mystery!

>>> Because <SO> wants me to; and modifying my body for him seems like the
>>> ultimate act of love.  

	JUST MY HUMBLE OPINION, again, but *to me* it seems awfully 
	*submissive*.  Sort of like 'wearing a special dress so that he'll 
	see how really sexy I can be'.  Superficial.

>>> And because I think it would freak the hell out of most of my past lovers
>>> if they ever found out.  :-)  

	Ummm, spite?

>>> For educational purposes, and for posterity, if the moderators agree it's
>>> appropriate, I will post a description of what happened and how it worked
>>> when/if I get it done.

	For what it's worth, I think you've got a lot of guts.  *I* wouldn't 
	do it, but more power to you for your conviction.

	Keep us posted on the outcome.

	Carol

        RE: Jerry, point well taken, luckily my earlobes didn't suffer
    from getting pierced. :*)

    I found .0's reply explaination enough (as if I somehow had the
    right to demand explaination, and I don't). Seen from that
    perspective it can be rather exciting. I can understand.

    As usual I've managed to dig up a peom that seems fitting. This is
    by Robert Graves and I bet you didn't get to read it in high school.
    Now if I could just find someone to walk the "quiet glades of Eden"
    with me. ;*} liesl

    All such proclivities are tabulated -
    By trained pathpologists, in detail too -
    The obscener parts of speech compulsively
    Shrouded in Classic Latin.

    But though my pleasure in your feet and hair
    Is ungainsayable, let me protest
    (Dear love) I am no trichomanic
    And no foot-fetichist.

    If it should please you, for your own best reasons,
    To take and flog me with a rawhide whip,
    I might (who knows?) surprisedly accept
    This ernest of affection.

    Nothing, agreed, is alien to love
    When pure desire has overflowed its baulks;
    But why must private sportiveness be viewed
    Through public spectacles?

    Enough, I will not claim a heart unfluttered
    By these case histories of aberrancy;
    Nevertheless a long cool draught of water,
    Or a long swim in the bay,

    Serves to restore my wholesome appetite
    For you and what we do at night together:
    Which is no more than Adam did with Eve
    In the quiet glades of Eden.

    I find it quite pleasant that no-one flamed the poster of .0  about this;
    the replies that were put off were still quite polite.

    My first response to the concept of nipple piercing (a few months ago)
    was to shudder.  I'm now unsure that I wouldn't like it (I can definitely
    understand the appeal), but I'm a bit too chicken-hearted to put myself
    through that much pain, though I've been told by numerous piercees that
    the super-intense pain lasts only for a few seconds.  Still.

    It's also necessary to leave the rings in almost all the time; nipples
    apparently are very inclined to grow back together.  I was surprised to
    learn, though, that a bra is actually less uncomfortable than bralessness
    after piercing -- apparently, having the rings held secure and immobile
    is the important part.

    I was also surprised to be told that piercing makes nipples *more*
    sensitive, rather than less.  Boggles the mind :-).

    Anyway, good luck to .0.  I do hope your SO will be with you to hold your
    hand...

    Beverly

>>> I'll bet you didn't want this answer, but I feel I have sort of become 
>>> part of an "under-ground".  

       **Ah.  Mystery!
    
    No mystery.  The idea of "elite" or "underground" sex is most commonly
    associated with S&M.
    
    
>>> Because <SO> wants me to; and modifying my body for him seems like the
>>> ultimate act of love.  

	**JUST MY HUMBLE OPINION, again, but *to me* it seems awfully 
	*submissive*.
    
    But that is exactly the purpose.
     

    Sounds awful!!  And I wouldn't want to risk health complications
    in that area--could get infected, absessed, etc.
    What if the person who does it botches the job??  If I were you,
    I'd wait a year and see if you feel the same way then that you do
    now.  But, I'm not you and don't feel like I have any right to judge-
    just my opinion.
    

From: [email protected] (Mason)
Newsgroups: brown.nm-list
Subject: Events events stneve stnevE
Date: 5 Oct 89 05:59:17 GMT


This isn't music, but I don't care.  Those of you in the Bay
area might be interested in an exhibition and series of live events
taking place at Southern Exposure Gallery, 401 Alabama Street,
San Francisco, being curated by Re/Search Publications.  The
flyer reads as follows:

			 "MODERN PRIMITIVES"
		    CONTEMPORARY BODY MODIFICATION

Fri. Oct. 20 - Thurs. Nov. 16  Gallery Hours: Wed-Sun 2:00-6:00pm

Fri Oct 20, 7:00 pm $4
Opening Night: Tattoo Fashion Show and Piercing Videos
	In a multi-arena format, video work by LA artist Sheree Rose
featuring genital piercing and excerpts of the video-in-progress
"Modern Primitives," directed by Leslie Gladsjo will be presented. 
A highlight of the evening will be a tattoo fashion show featuring
tribal designs.

Sat Oct 21, 8:00 pm $5
Kathy Acker, author
Fakir Musafar, modern primitive
Thyrza Goodeve, feminist theorist
Luis Kemnitzer, urban anthropologist
Panel: "Physical Illuminations"
	A presentation of literary sources in S&M culture; extolling
"the illuminative benefits of radical body modification"; woundings
and cuttings by women as healthy response to a sick society; body
modification and erotic practices by non-Western civilizations.
Moderated by Andrea Juno and V.Vale.

Fri Oct 27, 8:00 pm $4
An evening with Don Ed Hardy, The Thinking Man's Tattooist
	Don Ed Hardy, master tattooist and tattoo historian, is the
founder of Tattootime Magazine.  He is credited with the elevation
of tattooing to a recognized and accepted artform.  In a presentation
including superlative slides of rare and extraordinary tattoos, Hardy
will present ideas about tattooing in history, culture and modern life.

Fri Nov 3, 8:00 pm $4
Beauty and Blood: Mayan Sacrifice, Blood-Letting and Body Modification
	San Francisco State University Professor, Archeologist and
author Karen Bruhns is a noted contributor to the field of Central
and South American Pre-Columbian scholarship.  In a lively presentation,
highlighted by blood curdling slides, Bruhns will relate ancient
Mayan practices to contemporary perceptions of beauty and modern day
modification: liposuction, tummy tucks and facelifts.

Fri Nov 10, 8:00 pm $7
Nailed!  A performance
Not for the faint-hearted.
	Video artist/photographer Sheree Rose combines slides of
tattooing, piercing and scarification with a provocative bondage &
discipline bloodletting ritual.  Joining her is Bob F., noted poet
and comedian.  Throughout demonstrations of a startling graphic
nature, he infuses his comedic and poetic skills, culminating in
an emotionally charged presentation of his ingenious autoerotic
scaffold.

Mark your calendars, folks.

    Why would you care what anyone else thinks, if you intend to do
    something, go ahead and do it.  I have seen more private parts that
    were pierced, and I would wager that the object of that had some
    large amount of pain.
    
    I would not do that myself, nor want it in a partner.  However as
    everyone else has pointed out, its your dime spend it however you
    want.
    
    Now is you are in this for the shock effect... I personally think
    that your <SO> who appears to have had some input in your decision
    to do this, has a letter "B" that should follow the SO.  If one
    person likes pain, then good for them.  However, I do not condone
    the infliction of pain upon anyone else, either actually, or by
    pressure of words.
    
    Underground... well the Subway system in London has that term.
                   Also worms live underground.  If this is a cult
                   thing, think of all the other things that you may
                   wind up having to do.  
    
    Think once, about why you are doing this, and then ask yourself
    why you want to do it, and also is your "SO" doing anything for
    you that compares to this, or is he/she sitting back enjoying 
    your pain?  Think twice, and if you want it, It is Your BODY.
     You control some of what happens to it.
    
    I Think that you are doing the wrong thing, for the wrong reasons.
    Are you rebelling against parents, the former lovers, or society?
    
    I would like to know the real reason... not something you made up
    to shock the readers, or something convenient to use whenever you
    meet someone.
    
    Dave

Re: .41

Hi Tamzen.

    It already IS on my calendar. Any other West Coast =WN=s going?
    Perhaps we could carpool.

Re: .42

Hello Dave,

    Wait a minute here. You're making an awful lot of judgements
    here. I personally used to have problems reconciling my
    belief in "What consenting adults do in private is their
    business" with feminism, my hatred of spousal abuse, and
    S&M/B&D/"kinky sex". I've come to the conclusion that
    consensual sex is ok. (that's pronounced "ok - period")

    That said, I'd like to tell you what *I* felt about some of
    the things you said.

	I personally think that your <SO> who appears to have
	had some input in your decision to do this, has a letter
	"B" that should follow the SO.

    Why do you feel this way? I believe that it is certainly
    possible that her <SO> knows better than YOU what she
    wants/needs out of a relationship.

	If one person likes pain, then good for them.

    Do you REALLY believe this? It seems unlikely from the rest
    of your note.

	However, I do not condone the infliction of pain upon
	anyone else, either actually, or by pressure of words.

    Unless it is consensual. If BOTH parties are into it, then
    it's entirely their business. If it is at all non-consensual
    then it is rape, assault, and abuse.

	If this is a cult thing, think of all the other things
	that you may wind up having to do.

    Yes? She might know about them, she might enjoy them. Your
    and my definitions of "cult" may well differ. There are S&M
    clubs in many major cities. Are they "cults"? If our
    anonymous writer is actually into S&M she may well have
    "thought of all the other things that she may wind up having
    to do" with antici... ...pation. :-)

	Think once, about why you are doing this, and then ask
	yourself why you want to do it, and also is your "SO"
	doing anything for you that compares to this, or is
	he/she sitting back enjoying your pain?  Think twice,
	and if you want it, It is Your BODY.  You control some
	of what happens to it.

    Her SO may well be "sitting back enjoying her pain" and that
    may be what she wants. Do you have a problem with that? It
    is indeed her body, and her decision. *I* think she's a very
    brave woman, myself.

	I Think that you are doing the wrong thing, for the
	wrong reasons.  Are you rebelling against parents, the
	former lovers, or society?

    I think you are clueless.

	I would like to know the real reason... not something
	you made up to shock the readers, or something
	convenient to use whenever you meet someone.

    You're getting pretty judgemental and offensive here. I
    think your note would have been better without the last two
    paragraphs.

    American attitudes towards sex are screwed-up :-) I find that
    intellectually I have no problems reconciling consensual sex of
    all kinds, and feminism, and progressiveness in general. But given
    the history of society using sex as way of controlling people against
    their desires, I am occasionally uncomfortable with even
    consensual submissiveness. But that is MY problem, and I'm working
    on it.

    Unfortunately the women's movement and the lesbian community have
    problems with S&M as well. It's not PC. But that's another topic
    appearing soon in a notesfile near you.

	    Love is the law, love under Will.
	    (Thanks STella)

	    -- Charles

    I think there are a number of nifty things one can do with one's body
    when one's in their teens or twenties which will look perfectly
    dreadful by the time one reaches their fifties, sixties, and
    seventies...
    
    ...but it's your body....and you're not hurting anyone else in the
    process, so go ahead if you're determined to do so... Women have been
    modifying their appearance for years by hair coloring, breast implants,
    nose jobs, etc. I guess this is just the next "rage".  For myself, I
    prefer natural.
    
    grins,
    Marge

>    I think there are a number of nifty things one can do with one's body
>    when one's in their teens or twenties which will look perfectly
>    dreadful by the time one reaches their fifties, sixties, and
>    seventies...


	 Like eat too much, smoke, drink, etc, etc, etc.....even
	 everyday things could be considered "mutilation" of your
	 body.... nipple piercing is just not one of the common ones
	 (in this culture)....

	 kath

    
    Is this intruinging or what (at least I wish I had Decspell at hand)
      ... ANYWAY -it sounds painful.
    
    I'll go for the sexy part. I can see the fascination, I think. 
    But I would not want to feel that sexy all of the the time. Do they
    come in clips?
    
    Ann
    
    
    

    Mr Haynes,
    
    You read only parts of what I entered, or chose only to reply
    to selected parts.  That is your priveledge (SP) however I only
    entered an opinion, and will not resort to ratholing with you.
    
    Dave

The following is a update from the base author.
	Mez

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I had my heart set on getting this done last Sunday.  I had been thinking about
it (practically constantly) for the previous week, and decided it was something
I wanted.  Then I spent a large portion of the weekend talking with my SO,
and making sure it was something he wanted.  After much discussion, waffling,
and deliberation, we decided to do it.  So we set up an appointment with the
woman we found who does the piercing, and then went to get the required
jewelry.  And much to our chagrin, they didn't have the right type!  Since once
the ring is in, it can't be safely changed for two months after the piercing,
it's very important to get the right type of jewelry from the start.  We
were very disappointed.

However the decision was made and is final.  We plan to return to this woman
in two weeks (the next time she, myself and my SO are available) to do it,
unless we find someone better.  We did get the chance to talk to her about the
procedure, and there is one thing that makes us nervous...

[What follows is a description of the procedure to pierce a nipple, and a
question about the reused and sterilized needle. Go to the next note if this
sort of thing makes you uncomfortable. Mez]



[If you're really curious, but don't want to read it, I'll be glad to
provide a synopsis. Mez]




The way it works is that they measure and mark the spot on the nipple where
they want the pierce to enter, and where they want it to leave.  Then they
grasp the nipple in a pair of sponge clamps (the piercing woman, Victoria,
decribes these clamps as like hemostats, except with a larger, rounded
clamping head, with a hole in the middle of both sides of the head.)  they
line up the holes in the clamp with the marks on the nipples, and the close
the clamps to the first "click". (This, as I understand it, is supposed to
be the most painful part of the procedure.)  Then they take a hollow needle
of the correctuage (in my case, 14) and stick the end of the ring into the
end of the needle.  They push the needle through the holes in the clamp and
all the way through the nipple, thereby threading the ring into the nipple.

The area is cleaned before hand with an alcohol prep pad, and then cleaned
afterwards with alcohol and a "triple anti-biotic ointment", whatever that
is.  All the equipment (clamps, needle, rings) are sterilized beforehand
by boiling them for 1/2 hour.  She uses surgical gloves during the whole
operation.

Here is our hesitation - the needle is reused/nondisposable.  I understand
that boiling is sufficient to kill AIDS and hepatitis-A, but not hepatitis-B
or hepatitis-C.  I don't know anything about either of these diseases
though,like how common they are,  how easily they are spread, etc... 
Anyone have an info on this, or comments on the safety of this procedure?
(Only if you know what you are talking about, please, no speculation.)

Also, another question for anyone who might know.  Which metal is the body
more likely to reject, 14K gold or surgical stainless steel?  Rings are
available in both materials - aesthetically I prefer the gold, but I want
to minimize my chances of having an allergic reaction to the metal.

                          <** Moderator Response **>

    I think the author of .50 has identified a *critical* issue with this
    and any similar type of procedure, but since it isn't visible except to
    those who choose to read all the way through .50, I'm taking the
    liberty of reprinting it here:
    
�    Here is our hesitation - the needle is reused/nondisposable.  I
�    understand that boiling is sufficient to kill AIDS and hepatitis-A, but
�    not hepatitis-B or hepatitis-C.  I don't know anything about either of
�    these diseases though,like how common they are,  how easily they are
�    spread, etc...  Anyone have an info on this, or comments on the safety
�    of this procedure? (Only if you know what you are talking about,
�    please, no speculation.)
    
    I would wish to point out that we only know about boiling as a killer
    of the known strain of AIDS virus; I personally would not trust
    anything less than autoclaving as a sterilisation method considering
    the currently lethal nature of this virus.
    
    						=maggie

    
    
    I haven't had any experience with women's nipples :-), but I know of
    several other men that have had their nipples pierced.  They have said
    that the initial piercing is quite painful.  I asked one of them if,
    after the healing process had completed, their nipples were more or
    less sensitive.  There was no consensus of opinion -- those that
    already had "sensitive" nipples said they did not lose any of the
    sensitivity.  Those that did not already have sensitive nipples gave
    varied opinions as to the increase in sensitivity.
    
    	
    	Greg

Hello,

I want to make a point.  I entered an opinion to a base note that was
entered by anon.  I was stating an opinion, and I said that I thought
the the person had a right to do anything that they wanted, and I meant
that if there was any coercion involved, that was wrong.  I appear
to have been misunderstood.

I do not condemn anyones actions, in any way, I just wondered about the
motives that would contribute to the pain.  (I was answered by the base
note writer by mail.) and the "Cult" appears to be S/M, and if that is
the desire of anyone, I see nothing wrong there.  I was questioning only
the motive.  Not ever anyones rights.  

As to the other note which I replied to Mr Haynes, I have been involved
in the past with this person in notes, and they always lead no where, as
he seems to have the opposing viewpoint to whatever I say, and I wanted
to not be involved in another rathole.  I meant no offense, and if any
was taken, I AM SORRY.

Since I wrote that Note I was told:
1.  That I flamed Mr. Haynes... not intended that way.
2.  That I did not usually appear so coarse in notes... Well, I was a bit curt
    because, I felt that I had been stepped on, so to speak, for my opinion.
    I believe that I am entitled to MY OPINION EVEN IF IT IS WRONG!
3.  The reasoning behind the base note, and the identity of the author.
    I am not releasing the authors ID, even if that had not been asked.
    I was told that I had no right to that opinion, and that I had not answered
    All of the writers points.

I did not think that we HAD TO COMMENT ON EVERYTHING IN A NOTE.  I am sorry
about the misunderstanding.

I still did not get the answers to all my question/doubts.  Probably never 
will.  

This is also to say until some future date, I will set ==wn== read only.

I think that things have gotten a bit petty, and I will be back some time
in the future if I feel welcome... At this point I do not feel welcome.

Until later, we can still value differences, even if only on a one way street.

Dave

What's autoclaving?
	Mez

    The act of placing the items in a high-pressure, high-temperature (150
    degrees C or so) and high humidity environment for an extended period
    of time, usually over 20-30 minutes.  This is one of the most effective
    ways to sterilize items since it kills damned near everything,
    including highly resistant bacterial spores.  Luckily, needles and
    syringes are easily autoclaved since those conditions won't destroy the
    items.
    
    Personally, I wouldn't be comfortable with only boiling the needles. 
    Not sure that the other alternatives would be, though.  Autoclave units
    tend to be really expensive.

    Although this is an extreme case, the agent responsible for
    Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease requires one hour at 121 degrees C
    for inactivation (the boiling point of water at atmospheric
    pressure at sea level is 100 degress C).
    
    If it were me, I'd insist on a new needle.

    	RE: .57  Jerry Eckert
    
    	> If it were me, I'd insist on a new needle.
    
    	Me, too!
    
    	If it were me, I'd base my decision to go through with this
    	procedure on whether or not it will be *possible* to get a new
    	needle.
    
    	RE: .0
    
    	If the person can't provide you with one, then find someone who
    	will (or find out how to purchase the needles and bring your own.)
    
    	All cosmetic and philosophical considerations aside, it's a matter
    	of your life!  
    
    	All other considerations should be *secondary* (compared to the
    	issue of your safety.)

                  Just a suggestion
    
    It may be possible to insure a safe needle by the use of a home pressure
    cooker. Most run on several ounces of preassure, I think from 2oz to
    5oz. The preassure allows much higher water / steam tempritures.
    
    The cooker would need to be cleaned and prepared first.
    
    I do not know for a fact that this is absolutly effective but do
    beleave it would be more effect than boiling alone.
    
    Do be carefull and best regards.

I know a woman who recently had her nipples pierced.  Send mail if you want and
I'll let you know how to get in touch with her.

Don

    Good Goddess - I won't even reuse a needle on my HORSES!  Much 
    less consider letting one be used on me.  None of the sterilization
    techniques mentioned is going to guarantee that the needle will
    be clean.  Beside piercing supplies are relatively cheap and
    easy to obtain.  Send me mail if you need a contact. 
    
    FWIW, the experience isn't all that bad - intense and somewhat
    painful, but you'll survive (and with the right attitude - the 
    peircing itself can be erotic)

    
    -maureen  
    

    Re Nipple Piercing. Interesting.  I never heard of this before!
     (I feel so naive.)  When I first saw the title of the topic I thought
    it was going to be about a primitive tribal practice in a remote
    corner of globe.
    
    I love jewelry, and I could understand this practice more if we
    lived in a society where it was considered a common practice for
   women to walk around topless in public.  (When I consider the percentage
    of time I spend naked, it wouldn't seem worth the trouble!  But,
    then I'm not into S&M or any type of group nudity or anything, so
    I guess my life style is just too conservative to appreciate the
    effort.)
    
    I, personally, wouldn't do it.  I hate pain.  (having a mammogram
    almost killed me)  Nor, does it strike me that my life would seem
    more enriching were I to have it done.  (It reminds me of something
    a man with a harem would have done to all the women he owned, but
    that's my hangup, I guess.)  Each to their own, but I have more
    pressing interests in life.
    
    Lorna
     

    re: .64
    
>      Betadine will kill just about anything including viruses.
    
    Incorrect!
    
    Betadine is far from a universal antimicrobial agent.  It is less
    effective than iodine solutions or tinctures, which may require
    several hours to inactivate some type of spores and viruses, even
    at much higher than normal concentrations.  Betadine is not even
    universally antibacterial -- there have been cases of patients in
    hospitals being infected by Betadine solutions contaminated by the
    manufacturer.
    
    Betadine is 10% povidone-iodine.  The bottle states this is equal to
    1% "available iodine"; however, this is NOT equivalent to 1% iodine
    solutions or tinctures -- the free iodine (which is the active form)
    is only 0.001%; this rises to a maximum of 0.01% if the povidone-iodine
    is diluted from 10% to 0.1% (yes, diluted 100x!).  At no concentration
    of povidone-iodine can the germicidal activity equal that of NaI-based
    preparations of iodine.  Pseudomonas cepacia (can cause endocarditis,
    necrotizing vasculitis, pneumonia, wound infections, and urinary tract
    infections -JAE) and Staphylococcus aureus (boils, internal abscesses,
    food poisoning, and toxic shock syndrome, among other things -JAE)
    can grow in 10% povidone-iodine. [1]
    
    As I said in a previous reply: No, thanks!
    
    [1] Goodman AG, et al.  Goodman and Gilman's The Pharmacological Basis
    	of Therapeutics (7th ed., 1985).  pg. 965.
    

    re: .64
    
    A comment regarding baking as a means of sterilization:
    
    A 450 degree oven may provide more heat than boiling water, but 
    the additional *dry* heat is not necessarily more effective against
    all pathogens.

    re .65 and .66
    
    ditto.
    
    It doesn't pay to be unsafe  - even through misinformation.
    

    I have a minor technical question.  
    
     How do pierced nipples affect breast-feeding of infants?  Does the milk
    spurt out of the two additional holes as well as the main one? ("gee,
    it's like eating a lawn sprinkler, Ma!")
    
     Just curious
    			Nigel

>     How do pierced nipples affect breast-feeding of infants?  Does the milk
>    spurt out of the two additional holes as well as the main one? ("gee,
>    it's like eating a lawn sprinkler, Ma!")
 
There is no "main hole".  In the "Human Sexuality" course I took last semster
I was very surprised to learn that there are a *lot* of tiny milk ducts leading
to the tip of the nipple.  We saw a close up show of a lactating woman
squeezing her nipple till milk came out - and sure enough, it oozed out
from all over, it didn't spurt out of one hole.  Judging from the 
drawings of the structure of the nipple we saw, I don't think milk would
come out of the piercings...the piercings would cut through some of the
ducts, and those ducts would simple close up/heal over...they certain
wouldn't remain open touching the metal of the ring.  (The issue of breast-
feeding isprobably more a matter of whether internal scarring during the
healing process could close *all* of the ducts, or enough to make breast
feeding impractical/impossible.)

D!

    I'm not sure if the basenoter has already had her nipples pierced, but
    I was talking to someone this week-end who came up with another
    concern.  He mentioned that if any of the ducts are pierced, it can
    lead to pretty severe complications.  The phrases "Serious trouble" and
    "Reconstructive Surgery" came up.  

    I would consider this an expert opinion, although a sort of strange
    one.  The guy is a Veterinarian, although he's currently going for his
    MD (long story).   He has had to deal with similar sorts of problems;
    they're different, but I'm not sure that they're different enough to
    make this not a worry at all.  He gave me a long anatomical explanation
    of why this was so dangerous, but I'm afraid to say that it went in one
    ear and out the other, with the exception of the above two phrases. 
    His advice was to consult a doctor about this, preferably having the
    piercing done at a doctor's office.

    Hope this is some help, 

    Sarah

    I met a guy this past weekend who has his nipple pierced.  He was happy
    to answer my obviously curious questions, and what I learned was this:
    
    	He did the piercing at home with a friend.  Technically he did it
        himself, using a sterilized safety pin.  He said it hurt and took 
        about 15 minutes to do.  It healed in two weeks, during which time 
        it was very tender.  Now it does not bother him and has not been
        infected at all.
    
        He thinks it's very sexy and would absolutely love it if his
        girlfriend got her nipple pierced, but says it's entirely up to
        her, if/when she wants to do it.
    
        He loves it.
    
    And he showed it to me, very proudly.  Although it's wasn't at all a 
    turn-on to me, it didn't gross me out, either.  Looks fine, actually.
    
    Carol
    

	From RE/Search #12 "Modern Primitives"

	(Raelyn Gallina - a relatively well known and respected piercer
	from the Bay Area says...)

	"Cutting is a high-risk sport because of AIDS. So both piercing
	and cutting require precautions: you wear gloves, you clean the
	area thoroughly, and you use a scalpel or needle that has never
	been used before and will never be used again."

	To our anonymous correspondent, her address is:

	P.O. Box 20034, Oakland CA 94620

	I don't know how she made out in the 'quake. I hope she's ok...


	-- Charles

    I've been waiting for a follow-up!  Did you back out?  No?  Why
    or why not?  What happened??  

A reply from the base-noter.
	Mez
==========================================================================


No, she hasn't yet, but she will!

I bought the rings last Friday, and they are sitting at home on my desk,
waiting.  (Stainless steel 14-guage 3/4 inch diameter bead rings, hurrah!)
I bought them at a place called Innovations, in Boston, and while I was
there I asked the man at the counter if he knew anywhere local I could do
the piercing.  Immediately 3 men came up and started talking to me about
_their_ piercings; most of them had had them done at Fenway Community
Health Center, which, as I understand it, works a lot with the local gay
community.

(graphic description follows)


One person I talked to described his experience there, and it was slightly
different than the procedure I described previously.  They use local anesthetic
(1 ml of pro-something-or-other).  Also, instead of simply threading the
ring into the nipple by sticking it into the end of the hollow needle,
they use an angoi. cath. (whatever that is) needle, with a plastic sheath.
The plastic sheath gets left in the nipple, the ring is inserted into
the sheath, and then the sheath is removed, thereby inserting the ring
painlessly and with no damage to the surrounding tissue into the hole
left by the needle.  They guy I talked to said the whole procedure was
painless, although his nipples were a bit sore when the anesthesia wore off.

I will probably get it done at FCHC, rather than down in NYC by Jim
Ward, a nationally known piercer, as I was planning to.  I like the idea
of having it done by a professional doctor, as it seems it would be safer.
On the other hand, Jim Ward is very experienced with _placement_ and
his piercings might look better.  Also I am not sure I want anesthesia.
Something about going through the pain makes it seems more like a ritual,
a rite of passage.  With the anesthesia, it seems like just another 
painless medical procedure.  However, I really doubt that a respectable
medical establishment would be happy about my asking for no anesthesia just
so I could "experience the pain."

I plan to call FCHC this afternoon or tomorrow to set up an appointment
to talk with a doctor there who does piercing, and ask him questions such
as 1) will it affect my ability to nurse, 2) what are the chances of the
piece failing, either through rejection or infection, 3) how long will it
take before my nipples are fully functional (ahem) again, etc.  My
decision will of course depend on the answers to the questions are.  At
any rate, I'll be sure to pass on any information I learn to =wn=.

Tenative plans are to get it done the weekend of DEC 3 (if I do it at
FCHC) or Dec. 10 (if I get it done by Jim Ward down in NYC.)

    FCHC sounds like the better way to go.  Having spent two years in
    heart research, I've used many an angio-cath.  It involves a needle 
    covered, not all the way to the end of the point, by a thin, plastic 
    sheath.  When the needle is withdrawn, the sheath remains in place
    and can accept a catheter, or in this case, the end of a ring.
    Usually these needles pierce blood vessels to introduce a catheter
    for X-ray studies involving dye, (angiograms, pyelograms, etc), for 
    heart catheterizations and angioplasties.
    
    And these needles, (and the catheters for that matter),  are *never* 
    used more than once.  For one thing, the sheath wouldn't stand up to
    it.  Once the needle is removed, the sheath is very flimsy and
    delicate.  Even if a second 'stick' is required in the same patient,
    a new needle is used.  To be sure of good placement, just have 
    the piercer mark the spot before piercing.
    
    Good luck and please let us know how it goes!

    Wow...I never knew how interesting one note could be.
    
    In looking at my own, I have no idea how my nipples would even react,
    but if it makes you happy I wish you the best.  
    
    It does make me think and wonder.  You never know what goes on under
    people's clothes.  Thank God we live in America!
    
    Cyndi

Another reply from the base-note author.
	Mez

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Plans have at last solidified...the piercing is to be done at FCHC 
Saturday morning.  With anesthetic.  (Having had recent experience with
the pain from non-permanant experience, I am less disappointed at the
necessity of the local anesthetic.  (-: )

What's more, my enthusiasm was infectious, and my SO has decided to
get one of his nipples done, too (in an appointment adjacent to mine.)
This will of course make us a "three-ring circus" (his joke, not mine.)
I already have rings for myself, but I will be going to Innovations
in Leather next Thursday to get one for him.  (Anyone care to join me? (-: )

In preparation, we have taken numerous "before" pictures, and started
shopping for some appropriate clothing to show them off at an appropriate
party in 2 weeks (not the =wn= party.)  (Anyone know where one can get
half cup bras?)

Of course, I will be posting a full account of my experience Monday after 
it is done, but of course, details will be available sooner for the 
perceptive.  

    Where to find the bra's you are looking for...
    
    Try Fredricks of Hollywood. There is one in Natick, at the Lechmere
    Mall behind Shoppers World if you don't know where one is.
    
    G

    Also try Victoria's Secret at the Pheasant Lane Mall in Nashua.
    
    
    -Dotti.

>     <<< Note 809.79 by ULTRA::ZURKO "We're more paranoid than you are." >>>

>party in 2 weeks (not the =wn= party.)  (Anyone know where one can get
>half cup bras?)

         	 Fredrick's of Hollywood  ;-)

		 They have bras that give support but have removable
	 front panels and they also have 1/2 cup bras.

	 Whether they will have them in stock or not is another
	 question (and I don't know where FofH is in NewEngland) they
	 have many styles in their catalog (which I have right in
	 front of me)

	 kath

    There's also a FOH at the Woburn Mall (the one with Lechmere's and
    The Fabric Place.
    

re: .79:
   (not the =wn= party.)

Wimp!

The final update from the basenote author.
	Mez
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, at last at happened, and it was at the same time exciting, disappointing
and anti-climactic.

Anti-climactic was to be expected - things usually are when one gets very
excited ahead of time. And I was; for about the last week, the piercing was
all I could think of.  I knew, rationally, that the procedure would be
short and unceremonious, but somehow I felt my life would be changed after
getting the rings.  It wasn't.  That was the anti-climactic part.

The excitement came from looking down and *seeing* the rings.  They were
beautiful!  (Except for placement problems mentioned below.)  There was
excitement in watching my SO's face light up when we got home and I removed
the bandaids.  There was excitement in showing my new toys to (relative)
strangers.

The disappointent came from bad placement, and sometimes I feel that this
part is overwhelming the excitement.  The doctor, while presumably
medically quite competent, was not experienced in piercing, particularly
not in piercing female nipples (the vast majority of nipple piercing is
done on males.)  His procedure semed quite lax, and not nearly as good as
the Jim Ward's (he was the guy I was considering getting my nipples done by 
in NYC - I read an article on nipple piercing he wrote in Piercing Enthusiasts
International Quarterly.)  My SO's one ring was placed too far back and too
low, but was acceptable.  One of my rings was fairly good, though not 
perfect, because it was too far back and not quite horizontal.  My other
ring was just *awful*.  It was *way* to far back, not even close to 
hoirzonatal, didn't pass anywhere close to the center of the nipple, and
was offset by about 3mm.

We talked and talked about what to do about the misplaced ring.  I didn't
really want to go through the procedure again (it wasn't particularly
pleasant, and I wasn't psyched for it like the first time.)  Also it would
be complicated to see Neal (Dr.) again with my SO there (who is only available
on weekends) because he only is there one Sat. a month.  We really wanted
me to have *two* rings, for esthetic and other reasons.  But even if we did
go back to Neal, who is to say it would work better the second time?  

We ended up taking it out.  This was very hard for both of us...after all
the excitement leading up to it, it felt like we were admitting failure.
I almost cried when the ring was removed.  There were a lot of reasons...
the main one was that we decided we wanted some experience on which
to base the placement of the second one, so we would wait till the first
one healed, and see how we liked it.  So now I have only one right.
(It happens to be the one on the *right*, thankfully and conveniently! :-)

We will probably end up getting the second one done by Jim Ward in another
6 months or so.

Anyway, as for what actually happened...

I had it done at Fenway Community Health Center by Dr. Neal Rzepkowski. The 
procedure itself was quite clinical and fairly quick, not at all the ritual 
it was in my mind.  (Which I expected.)  Neal was very friendly, he even went 
out of his way to let us take pictures of the whole process, so our private 
little "ritual" would be documented for posterity.

(Next reply for the sqeamish...)

My SO went first.  His nipples are quite large, larger than mine, so
they were handled differently.  First the nipple and surrounding area was
swabbed with alcohol.  The anesthetic was injected right at the edge of
the aureola (sp?).  For my SO, that part was the most painful...a little
worse, but not much, than your average shot at the Dr. and *much* easier
than your average Novacain injection at the Denist.  Neal did *not* mark
the spot where the needle would be inserted, which surprised us because
all the procedures we had heard about did involved marking.  The Doc
waited about a minute, and then grasped the nipple with what I think was
a sponge clamp - this was another surprise, as all the clamps we had 
seen (Jim Ward uses Pennington forceps) held the nipple much more
securely and flatly - this clamp sort of smooshed it all around, so it isn't
surprising that the placement wasn't wonderful.  (Jim Ward also uses
a cork or some such braced against the nipple, so it stays in place and
the needle has somewhere to go...this seems like a good idea, but Neal
didn't do that.)

The actual insertion took a *lot* longer than we expected...about a minute
to get the needle all the way through, and it took a lot of working and 
pushing to get it though.  (I wonder if the needle was not very sharp.)
The needle was covered by a plastic sheath which was left in the nipple
after the needle was withdrawn.  The ring was threaded in the end of the
sheath, and then the sheath was removed with the ring following.  My SO
says he didn't feel any pain from the insertion, though he could feel the
pressure.

Mine didn't go so smoothly.  At our insistence, he did mark my nipples, but
just sort of by guesswork..."Yeah, that looks about right, i guess."  My
insertion was a lot more painful than my SO's...it hurt less than the
anesthetic injection, but lasted a lot longer and it was very uncomfortably
to feel him shoving and working the needle.  On the second nipple, as he
was removing the sheath and inserting the ring I heard him say "Ooop, I
lost it...gotta do that one over" and I almost lost it!  turns out the ring
had become detached from the sheath inside the nipple, and was fixed
simply by pullinng the ring back out, rinserting the needle into the sheath,
and guiding the ring back into the sheath by following the needle.

Then it was over.  the Doc swabbed off all three rings with alcohol pads,
told us we were all set.  (I asked for a bandaid, because it was bleeding.
Interstingly, my anesthetic injection didn't bleed, but the piercing did
a little...my SO's piercing didn't bleed at all, but the injection did.)
So after some parting words (including discovering that we were all RPI
alumni) and hugs, and were were gone.  Total time, about 30 minutes.  Cost
for the visit, $42 each.  (Each person, despite the fact that I had two
nipple done while my SO had only one.)

The anesthetic started wearing off in about 20 minutes, and was totally gone
within two hours.  The after effects hurt a lot less than I thought they
might have.  They ached for the rest of the day, but the actual level of
pain was considerably less than that of a headache or achy muscles from
overextending yourself at the gym. Most of the pain was after coming home
and rotating/cleaning the rings...then it burned a little and ached a lot
for about 20 minutes, but still, not that bad.  (Mine seemed a bit achier
than his.)

Aftercare includes washing it with soap and water twice a day, cleaning
the rings with hydrogen peroxide, and rotating the rings lubricated by
Neosporin.  (Doc told us the Neosporin was overkill, but I am incredulous...
it seems to me that infection is very likely and the antibiotic
ointment was important...at any rate, it makes turning the rings hurt
a lot less.)

At this point, about 48 hours after the piercing, the nipple with the ring
is *very* sensitive to the touch, and somewhat sore, but I basically
don't feel it unless I touch it or bump against it.  The nipple without
the ring (BTW, about 24 hours passed between the piercing and when we
removed it) is quite sore to the touch, but less so than the other one,
and doesn't ache at all.  The holes have pretty much closed up on that
one.  

The last two nights I have been sleeping with bandaids holding the ring
down.  most of the the pain comes from when you accidentally bump or
pull the ring.  (I was *amazed* to discover how often you and other things/
people come in contact with your nipples.  One never really notices
because you don't really feel it...but despite it being a "private sexual
place", it really does get bumped and jostled and pushed quite a bit.)
My ring actually sticks out a bit, making it that much more likely to
get bumped.

Neal says that I can take out the ring safely for a little while (less than
a half hour) after 6 weeks.  No *oral* contact with the nipple for four weeks
(to prevent infection.)  We should wait at *least* three weeks before 
subjecting the rings/nipples to any weight or force.  It will be 6 months
before the nipple is totally, 100% healed.  (Until that time, the ring cannot
be removed for any longer than a very short period of time.)

I eagerly await being able to remove the rings...I have started ordering
catalogs for jewelry and am really looking forward to wearing neat stuff,
as soon as I can change it!  (Unfortunately it is *very* expensive...my
stainless steel rings from the Gauntlet cost $30 each...the sun burst nipple
shield I want only comes in gold and costs $200...the working lock with
key comes in silver and gold combined for $400, or $800 for solid gold.)

So, anyway, it's over, for now.  I have one ring, and despite the fact that
I am disappointed it is only one, I am very glad I did it.  I think it
looks great, and so does my SO. His does too!  (And BTW, Fredericks of
Hollywood in the Lechemere Mall in Framingham is out of quarter cup
bras.  Oh well...)  The next one we will probably have done by Jim Ward
without anesthetic, and I am looking forward less to that one.  ;-)

I read in another conference that Axl Rose of [Guns-n-Roses?] fame has his
left nipple pierced.  Can you imagine?

D!

    > Can you imagine?
                      
    Only because I've been prepped by this topic! ;-)
    
    DougO

Think MTV will let him have a video with it?
	Mez

>Think MTV will let him have a video with it?

Of course they would......  Many videos have barechested men in them....I 
don't see how a barechested man with a nipple pierced would be any different.


BTW....The _Red Hot Chili Peppers_ co-hosted "Post Modern MTV" a couple
of months ago.  All members had their shirts off and their microphones clipped
to their nipples.  They were talking into each other's mikes and, over all, 
it was rather hilarious.  ;-)


(But my nipples hurt just watching it! I'm still a baby about it, I want a 
hoop at the top of my left ear, and don't have the guts to do it.)

kat

    I don't know about Axl Rose, but the lead singer for the band Skid
    Row has his nipple pierced, and his nostril, and a chain
    connecting the two, and yes, they do show it on MTV -- that's
    where I saw it.
    
    The idea seems terribly tittillating to me, but I suspect reality
    wouldn't quite be the same.
    
    --bonnie

>    I don't know about Axl Rose, but the lead singer for the band Skid
>    Row has his nipple pierced, and his nostril, and a chain
>    connecting the two, and yes, they do show it on MTV -- that's
>    where I saw it.


	 Bonnie.......do you remember which video?!?!?  I'd be
	 curious!  I just watched a Skid Row video, and he does have
	 his nose pierced, and a chain connecting the nose ring with
	 his earring, but I've never seen him with a pierced nipple
	 (though I wouldn't doubt it).

	 Not to mention that all the guys in Skid Row are HOT!  ;-)


	 kath

	Even though Axl has a pierced nipple, I don't remember seeing 
	him bare-chested in any of his past videos.  Tant pis.  Maybe 
	the future will be different?

	Carla

    Perhaps, for the benefit of those of us who are particularly squeamish,
    you folks could insert a warning and a formfeed?
    
    thanks,
    Marge

    His stage name is Johann Bach, (real name Bierch), and in
    a recent appearance at Springfield,Ma. he wa sinvolved
    in a fight with two audience members. Someone threw a
    bottle at the stage, hitting Bach. He retaliated by 
    throwing it back into the audience. The bottle hit a woman
    attending, resulting in a 33-stitch gash. Bach then jumped
    into the audience, kicking her companion in the head. He was
    arrested and charged, then  was released from jail on a 
    $10000 bond.

    A real sweetheart.

    re: .93 -- Sorry, I thought the topic itself was enough to ward
    off the squeamish.  I'll be more careful next time.
    
    re: .92 and .94  -- I don't remember which video.  I only saw it
    once.  Yes, they are hot . . . but not exactly my cup of tea.  I
    like Tesla and Badlands and Bang Tango a lot better.  Yes, Dana,
    the guy is a jerk.  
    
    --bonnie

    Maybe not quite the same, but along the same lines (well, almost), I
    saw a segment on a video tape that was about a man that used baby rings
    and fit nipples with them to where they were tight enough to not just
    fall off, but loose enough not to cause any discomfort.  This kept the
    nipple erect at all times.  Some of the women said it just made them
    feel sexier.  I think I'd be too self conscious with either.
    

What's a "baby ring"?  Is that like a nipple or ear ring, only through a baby?
I think baby piercing sounds *really* sick.  ;-)

This is not a new idea.  A couple of companies sell things called, among
other things, "sweater bumpers", which are little rings that fit closely 
around the nipple and hold it erect. I have an address and an article if
anyone's interested.  

D!

>What's a "baby ring"? 

A Baby ring is a tiny little ring usually made in gold that would fit around
a baby's finger.

I've never seen a baby wearing one, but you usually see them on necklaces
around their neck.

I just bought both my nieces one this year.

kath

    More information on iodine as a disinfectant. From "Science News" Vol
    137 #1, p 6.
    
    	Scientists subsequently found _Pseudomonas_ could survive in
    	bottled iodine solution for up to 15 months, and governmnent
    	researchers fingered plastic distribution pipes used in
    	manufacturing as the source of the contamination. The federal team
    	has now developed a laboratory model that explains the microbe's
    	extraordinary ability to sheild itself against germicides.
    
    The article also mentions that in the last decade there have been
    several cases of infection that were traced back to fouled batches of
    "an iodine solution routinely used to clean medical equipment and to
    disinfect skin before surgery." and that one manufacturer whose
    disinfectant got contaminated has switched from plastic pipes to stainless 
    steel, and is using scalding water to clean them.
    
    	-- Charles