Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    Steve:
    
    This may not really fit the idea you had in mind, but:
    
    My years as a Co-Counselor changed ideas I had about lesbians.  Once I
    asked a dear counselor (who was out at work, well respected and well
    paid in her job, had a ten-year relationship, was pretty and looked
    like she had everything going for her) if she felt pain from her
    lesbian status and she replied "every minute."  Also, I thought that
    the love and support between her and her lover was the best I'd ever
    seen.  *I've* personally never seen better joy in another person's
    growth struggles, nor better commitment.
    
    Briana
    

    RE .4
    
    That is the theme I was looking for in this note.
    
    
    Steve

    
    This may not be exactly on target with the subject but the Notes files
    this one and H_R in particular have considerably broadened my way of
    thinking about a multitude of issues.  The opportunity to share ideas
    and opinions with such a diverse group of people has proven to be an
    invaluable tool for growth.

    Gail

    
    Being a glorious, and opinionated bitch of the first order...
    
    I had my come-uppance a mere several days ago....and I am
    changed [well, part of me anyway...] forever...
    
    You see, I made one of my faster-than-the-speed-of-sound decisions
    about the realtive worth of another female. She was young, and a bit
    raucous [I hate it when people horn in on my trademark...], and
    she played "heart and soul" at least 45 times on my synth...and
    nothering else....and she had what I considered to be very "light"
    views about things in general.
    
    Then...she goes and answers a note in HR. Not only did she answer it,
    she kept saying things that were well-thought-out...sensitive...even
    caring! HOW DARE SHE!!!! [sigh] I mean, how could she have the nerve to
    exhibit behavior that did not meatch *my* preconceived notion of the
    universe! Sheesh....
    
    I am reminded that I am most fallible when I seek to make judgements.
    It is not that I have not learned it before....but this time through
    had a certain "style" about it...ya' know? She really tucked it to
    me....and didn't even know it. I love it!
    
    I am forced to admit that she has a few more layers than I gave her
    credit for...my mistake. If I were a bit more agile I would kick myself
    in the a**...
    
    Instead...I will just thank her for reminding me of a lesson that I
    keep having to re-learn...I will send her a copy of this note.
    
    Melinda
                                                                

                          <** Moderator Response **>

    To resuscitate this string, if possible, I've purged one note under
    provision of the trashnotes policy and 4 others as irrelevant without
    the trashnote.

    						=maggie

    One of the earliest changes I ever went through was reading _Ivanhoe_
    in seventh grade.
    
    Here I was, reading this book about this cool guy, Wamba, and these
    nice peasants, being tormented by evil Norman overlords.  Then I
    realized.
    
    *I* was part Norman!  The blood of villains ran in my veins.  I could
    not hide behind my Anglo-Saxon last name, or my blonde hair and
    green eyes; I could not counterbalance with a rumored Amerind line.
    Some of my ancestors were those black-haired, brown-eyed barbarians
    with the funny haircuts and crude French, who overtaxed ordinary
    people, and tortured unordinary people.
    
    I came to terms with this by a laborious acceptance that *I* was
    an individual, responsible for my mistakes, my actions, my thoughts,
    but *not* responsible for those of people who had died before I
    was born.  What made it laborious was that I wove into this the
    same acceptance for others:  No one was to be treated at all as
    the current projection of an ancestor.  It meant that I was obliged
    to deal with *every* one of the three (at that time) billion people
    on the planet as a separate individual, whose treatment *had* to
    derive from what I could deduce from that individual's actions.
    
    The thought was exhausting, the prospect daunting, and I have no
    real way of knowing how well I'm doing at it.  But I keep trying,
    because the alternative is being mistaken for Prince John or the
    Sheriff of Nottingham.  Yuck.
    
    						Ann B.
    
    P.S.  I eventually found out that my name is *not* Anglo-Saxon.
    It is the Anglo-Saxon translation of a Norman name.  I told me so.

    
    one recent turning point would be seeing the movie 'do the right thing'
    (the controversial film by spike lee). it has been the catalyst for me
    doing alot of reassessing of the role of music in my life as compared
    to the obligation to be a force for change in society.
    
    as i think about it, there have been lots of turning points over the
    years: reading 'the lord of the rings', going to that party with cathy
    and the subsequent decision to go out for the school play instead of
    the track team, changing from violin to viola as my primary instrument,
    moving to pittsburgh, moving to seattle, taking my friend mike's
    suggestion and getting a job as a computer operator.
    
    not least of these turning points would be the discovery of
    women-notes!
    

    Experiences that changed my views included:
    
    Being laughed at a lot in junior high (taught me social caution
    and how to blend in with the wall).
    
    Working really hard to get the administration to listen to the students
    in college and having them still ignore us (taught me that not
    everything works the way it should, and some people's idea of "the
    right thing" isn't necessarily the same as others').
    
    Being not-very-athletic most of my life, then challenging the asthma
    and actually running (albeit slowly) a mile and not collapsing (taught
    me *I* can be more in control of my health and life than I thought).
    
    Having several SO's leave me and still being alive (taught me there's
    more to life than relationships - or should I say relationshifts?
    they do tend to change a lot).
    
    Seeing the movie "The Dead Poets Society" (taught me to live more
    for today, less for tomorrow).
    
    Wearing an unbelievable costume lent to me at Worldcon (taught me
    I'm not the Ugly Duckling I used to be several years ago).

    -Jody
    

    I'm with Ann, that was amazing [npi].

    �I'll third Ann and Maggie's comment on the costume! WOW!
    
    and on the base note topic....
    
    I'd say standing in the girls room in 10th grade when the young
    black girl who had just integrated our high school was denied
    access to the toilets by a group of staring white girls, made
    me aware of racism and how mean people can be to others. The
    internal changes that grew from that day have affected much of
    the rest of my life.
    
    Bonnie

    *blush*
    
    sanctuary much
    
    *ahem*
    
    

    re: "that" costume
    
    In the words of those musical/literary giants, The Monkees,
    "I'm a believer!"
    
    Steve

     in re .13
    
    blessed are those who have believed but have not seen!
    
    :-)

    re: .14
    
    Yet more blessed are they who've seen.  Thank you, Dr. Land.
    
    Steve

 Returning to =wn= after my initial flogging and learning alot. 

 Seeing more of the things that I had only heard about before wrt welfare,
the system, and stupidity.

 The birth of my daughter, which has changed me in so many ways I can't even
count.

 The Doctah

    
    For a long time, I have considered myself pro-abortion. NOT pro-choice.
    Forget the fetus: no woman, and especially a female under 18, should be
    bringing a child into the world. Period.
    
    Recently in a course I took at DEC, I was in a room in which the issue
    of abortion came up, as the topic was "Hot Buttons", and ways to deal
    with hot topics.
    
    And a woman, who had had SIXTEEN children, stood her ground in said
    that life is precious: abortion is wrong.
    
    I became pro-choice that day. I couldn't argue against her. I couldn't
    invalidate her beliefs, and I had to realize that my views put her in
    the category of a fool.
    
    She was no fool. She was a woman who lived her beliefs. Quietly,
    proudly. And probably not without pain and suffering, but surely with
    dignity.
    
    I can't deny any woman the right to take the hard road. I can't deny
    any woman her right to believe that the life in her body deserves a
    special priority that she's willing to move over for. 
    
    And the other thing I learned about being pro-choice is that sometimes,
    it means being VERY QUIET about what MY choice would be.

    While in the third or fourth grade in a Catholic school in Washington
    DC (the integrated school system in the city), I was turned away
    from a movie theatre.  I put my quarter in the window and was told
    I couldn't go in.  I stepped back to double check that it was the
    G rated movie that I thought I wanted to see.  I stepped back to
    the window and said something like, "It's G, I can go in."  She
    said, "You're white.  You can't come in."
    
    I walked away trying to make sense out of non-sense.  Why wouldn't
    she keep to the topic of why I couldn't come in.  Of course I'm
    white.  Who cares?  Why bring it up?  Why couldn't I go in the theatre?
    
    Obviously, it still bothers me.  Race is not just a stupid reason
    for any decision, it is a contemptable reason for a decision.
    
    Bud

    When I was in high school, back in the 50's, we had a boy transfer to
    our school(in RI) from Georgia. We were all horsing around one day
    during study, and he stopped short and said he didn't want me to touch
    him with my "black" hands. I was 17 years old and had never had any one
    ask me not to do any thing or deny me anything because of my color. My
    family were upstanding members of the community, and I thought those
    kinds of things only happened some place else to some one else.

    Here's two related ones:
    
    I have always hated bullies.  When I was a young boy, I simplistically
    equated any larger person or larger number of persons as the bully.
    I would always attack the big one even though I was very small.
    If I saw a fight, I would jump in.  In the fourth grade, I even
    formed a gang whose purpose was to beat up the unjust.  I felt very
    noble about this.
    
    One day, I was walking home when I saw two boys fighting.  The big
    boy was a teen ager, about twice my size, and the small boy was
    about my size.  The small boy pleaded for me to help.  I stopped
    and considered it, but left without getting involved.  My thoughts
    were first that the big boy was too big for me to be sure I could
    beat him.  I believed that if the small boy stayed and fought, we
    would win.  I left because I wasn't comfortable that the small boy
    would stay with me once I got the big boy off him.  They were both
    black and I am white.  I don't know if I would have had more faith
    in the small boy if he were white.  I don't even know if my assessment
    was correct or incorrect.  The lasting effect is that I'll never
    forget this (I can't) and I will never walk away from anyone in
    trouble again.  (I have lots of insurance for my family.)
    
    The second part is about the gang.  My recruitment was to find someone
    that I liked and invite them to join.  They might get hurt if they
    didn't.  Anyway, I would horse around with my "friends" at times.
    I made sure everyone knew who the boss was.  It was even like some
    of the movies where the leader says some stupid joke and starts
    to laugh and everyone laughs with him, stopping abruptly when he
    stops.  Actually, it was this clue that I finally pickup up on (after
    about 2 years) that made me realize that I wasn't their friend.
    I was just someone they were afraid of.  First, I reacted by horsing
    around and letting them win.  In getting them to attack, they would
    become very angry and it just didn't work to make them feel good
    about winning.  Ultimately, I disbanded the gang.  I realized that
    I had become, big time, the very bully that I hated. 
    
    Bud

I read something last Thursday that, well, not sure if it changed my view,
but it affected it a lot.  I have been thinking about it all weekend...

Some background.  On a newsgroup I read, someone posted a story about
a homosexual experience.  It wasn't clear until about midway through
the article that it was about gay sex, and not het.  A second person posted
a response that said "please include warnings before gay stories so the
rest of us won't have to read them."  This was one person's response to
that request...

>On [a gay newsgroup], where such things are discussed *ad infinitum*, this
>counts as an example of heterocentrism, a term just coming into its
>own.  Unlike homophobia, where a person does not like homosexuals,
>heterocentric people do not recognize our existence.  It turns out to
>be a less violent/deadly problem - very few gay men have physically
>died from heterocentrism, with the possible exception of the case of
>the U.S.  Government's response to AIDS - but it's possible to die
>emotionally and spiritually, too, and heterocentrism has the souls of
>millions on it hands.

Heterocentrism.  I had never heard the word before, but suddenly something
I had been feeling vaguely uncomfortable about in a lot of people's attitudes
had a name, and with that came in to clear relief.  Wow.

I started looking around me, and realized that the world is so *full* of
centrisms that even the most perceptive of us can't catch them all.  because,
unless you belong to the "outside" group in question, they are often
difficult to recognize.   It is so insidious, so subtle, and so prevalent.

Heterocentism - gay stories are *different* and need to be labelled.  het
stories are "expected" and no one thinks twice.  White-centrism - the
Crayola Crayon labelled "flesh color" (or bandaids, or whatever) when what
they really mean is "Caucasion flesh colored".  Male-centrism - well I am
sure everyone in this file is well attuned to *that*.  Christian-centrism -
"Merry Christmas" to everyone you meet.  The list goes on and on...
middle-class-centrism.  Able-bodied-centrism.  American-centrism.
Nuclear-family-centrism.

And I looked in my own life and realized how many times I had used the
word "everyone" to mean "straights".  Or whites.  Or WASPS.  How many
times I said "people do this..." when I assumed (correctly) that everyone
(ha!) would understand that I meant "most people" where the dividing 
line between "most" and "the rest" was that I belonged in the "most"
category!

And then people responded "But homosexuals are the minority!" in defense
of Roger's request, and I realized that many people hadn't even understood
the *definition* of centrism.  (I wonder how many here do?  I wonder if
this deserves it's own topic?)

And I begun to think I had a new cause to add to my very small list of causes.

D! (who is working on eliminating the existence of sentences of the subtle
    form "everyone does X...except those who don't, of course" from her own
    vocabulary before she "cures" the rest of the world.)

>    It's probably inappropriate to talk about who is sexy, in a "mixed"
>    group.

I don't know about the probably part. Can be, sure. But most of the folks I run
with enjoy discussing all the vectors.
	Mez

RE:  D!

Yes, isn't is wonderful to be aware of other groups, cultures, and
lifestyles different from our our own.  Ironically, I have found that the
more I look into the differences between cultures, the more I have
found the fundamental sameness that (should) unite all human beings.

RE:  Herb

Why are you uncomfortable with gay men saying who they found
attractive?  Think about the other point of view. I'm sure gays and
lesbians hear about strate sex all the time!  Look at the newspapers,
TV's, and magazines, and strate male conversions! Sex, sex, sex.  In
my view, it would be better if we were all comfortable with each
others sexuality.  That way, no one would have to watch what they were
saying!  Wouldn't that be wonderful!

john

                          <** Moderator Response **>

    ...and now we return to our regularly scheduled program.
    
    						=maggie

>    It's probably inappropriate to talk about who is sexy, in a "mixed"
>    group.



	 heeheehee....

	 I enjoy "scaming men" with my gay male friends.  As for
	 discussing women with my lesbian friends, I find it rather
	 interesting to know what they are attracted to in a woman
	 (what features, etc....)

         I find it interesting, enlightening and a lot of fun.....and
         I find it very flattering when they find me attractive, not
	 uncomfortable......

	 kath

    Re .27, I think it's interesting, too.  I used to work with a gay
    guy a few years ago at DEC, and we used to always point out good
    looking men to each other.  It was fun.  Once he told me, "I just
    wish you could meet my ex, because I just *know* you would be impressed
    because, well, I think we both go for the same type of guy!"
    
    That wasn't a turning point in my life though.  I can't think of
    any right now.
    
    Actually, I think discovering feminist literature such as Marge
    Piercy's poems and novels, Alice Walker's poems and short stories,
    Margaret Atwoods novels and short stories, and Doris Lessing's novels,
    among others was a turning point for me.
    
    Lorna
    

    Lorna,
    
    Thats funny.. my hairdresser is gay, and it seemed for the longest time
    that any guy that I was interested in, ended up being WITH him... 
    We have exactly the same taste in men, and well, how come it seems that
    all the 96% of all the great guys are gay anyway????...
    
    It got to where if I was even remotely interested in a guy, the first
    question out of my mouth was so.. are you gay, bi-sexual or straight?
    (I rmember asking that at a =wn= party once to a male there.... the
    reaction was hilarious to say the least (remember Tamzen?)....

    I hope it is alright to say this....
    
    The notes of Karen Wharton have had an impact on me. I can't say
    they've changed my life but they have opened my eyes a bit more.
    I refer not only to her notes here but also in blacknotes
    and especially the notes she's entered in soapbox, where she
    encounters quite a bit of grief sometimes. 
    
    							Hank

    As a young, too-bright girl, I wanted to be "normal" and popular.  I
    wanted desparately to fit in.  So I tried very hard to do what people
    who fitted in DID.  Failed miserably, of course, and was all the
    weirder, more outside the norm, more scared and lonely.
    
    Then made a wonderful friend (Kim Bryant, wherever you are now, you
    made me who I am).  We were so comfortable in our friendship that we
    ignored the popular crowd and did what WE liked, enjoyed the things WE
    enjoyed - all regardless of whether or not it was cool or sappy.  Had
    an incredible amount of fun.
    
    We made friends with people WE liked, regardless of whether they were
    cool.
    
    Suddenly, the popular crowd decided we were really cool and wanted to
    be our friends.  Made friends with some of them, others not.  Kim and I
    were defining a new "in-crowd" - though we just liked who we liked and
    didn't like who we didn't.
    
    What I learned?
    
    1) I'm most likeable when I *am* what I *am* - and I'm pretty repellant
    when I try to fit in.  
    
    2) *I* make myself happy by doing and liking what I do and like - if
    I'm miserable, it's almost always because I've been trying to do, be,
    or think like someone else.
    
    3) Just because someone's on the outside doesn't mean they can't make
    good friends.  It's amazing, and I'm proud of it, but when a bunch of
    my friends don't like someone, I feel very free to like that person and
    say so - even when it *is* outside the norm.  It's not uncommon for me
    to but in with a "gee, s/he seems pretty nice/smart/capable to*me*".
    Also feel free to dislike someone "everybody else" likes.  Small bravery, 
    perhaps, but something I was once unable to do.
    
    I relearn these lessons pretty regularly, the hard way. 
    
    Lee

 Wonderful note, Lee. Way to go.

 The Doctah

    On a recent vacation to Disneyworld/Epcot Center/MGM-Disney Studios
    my sister and I had to push my mom around in a wheelchair for 4 days.
    She was having trouble walking any distances without getting winded 
    and her left ankle would swell up like a balloon (she's overweight
    and has high blood pressure which could have something to do with 
    those problems).  Anyway, all the Disney employees were wonderful
    about the wheel chair and very concerned about helping us get to
    places, through doorways, etc.  Disney even publishes a special booklet
    which they gave to us when we rented the chair.  It has all the rides
    and things listed and whether or not it is accessible by wheelchair,
    where to go to get that access and how long each ride or movie, etc.
    was in minutes.
    
    What I couldn't believe were the number of people who were totally
    oblivious to us.  People would cut right in front of us and the
    wheelchair and we'd have to hit the brakes to keep from running them
    over with the chair and they'd get mad at us if we couldn't stop.
    The parks were crowded and getting around with people walking in front
    of us, stopping in front of us and blocking any otherwise easily
    accessible entrance or exit, being oblivious to our excuse me's and
    pardon me's as we tried to get that bulky chair maneuvered, was truly
    frustrating.  I honestly can't imagine having to be permanently in
    a wheelchair and having to deal with this every day.
    
    This experience has certainly given me a new awareness to the problems
    people in wheelchairs must have to face on a day-to-day basis.
    
    Jan