Conference turris::womannotes-v2

I remember hearing Don Rickles talk about the great effect hard consonants have
('hockey puck' was a favorite phrase). Lot's of my favorite 'swear' words have
nice hard constants in them.

The answers, for me:
    
>    A	Do we need to swear ?
Nah. It's a luxury!
    
>    B	What does a good swear do for us ?
Vent. Catharsis. Shock value. Calls attention. Highlights.
    
>    C	Do you feel guilty if you swear, ie right and wrong.
No; though I do not like to hurt people.

	Mez

>    A	Do we need to swear ?
 
    No. Like Mez said, it's a luxury. :-)
       
>    B	What does a good swear do for us ?
 
    It can do many things. Take up space instead of an "um," get attention,
    vent anger, etc. Nothing like those Anglo-Saxon sounds. :-)
       
>    C	Do you feel guilty if you swear, ie right and wrong.
    
    Sometimes. Unfortunately, I often fall into the trap of using swears
    when I'm too lazy to pick a more appropriate adjective. I'm trying to
    minimize my swearing before Kacie figures out how to imitate those
    words. :-)/2
    
    I notice that many people begin to swear more often after drinking
    (myself included). I really noticed it one day when this old man used
    the f-word as his only adjective for about 20 minutes. Now I know why
    my wife becomes angry with me when I speak that way. You sound so damn
    stupid. :-)
    
    I do enjoy a good string of swears when I'm frustrated. Sometimes I
    put them together in ways that even makes me laugh and eases stress.
    I notice this happens frequently while driving. :-)
    
    The Doctah

    The first time I ever swore (being brought up in a fundamentalist
    Christian home), I made the mistake of saying "SH*T" in front of
    my mother.  Even though I tried to convince her I'd really said
    "SHIP," she washed my mouth out with soap.  I never swore in front
    of her again.
    
    But then one summer when I was in college I took my first truly
    frustrating job, ironically at the national conference center for
    the same fundamentalist Christain group I'd been reared in.  Out
    of frustration I learned to swear, all those cathartic, hard-consonant
    Anglo-Saxon words that really did my soul good (in spite of what
    my mother said they'd do).  And they did, in fact, purge and cleanse
    the anger and frustration.  So when the situation calls for it,
    I still swear.
    
    But not as much as I used to, and seldom for attention, and never
    for the shock value.  Except when around my mother, I also
    don't modify my choice of swear words to accommodate the audience
    of the moment.  Can't believe I'm saying anything the listener hasn't
    already heard before, and I doubt there are too many people today who 
    are really shocked or overly offended.
    
    Having said that I enjoy a good swear as much as anyone else, I
    do have to admit that I DON'T enjoy spending an evening with a
    "comedian" (the quotation marks indicate that I didn't find the
    entertainment amusing) who uses "f**kin'" to modify every noun or
    pronoun in his/her sketch.  Unless he's describing certain sexual
    acts, it's not funny, it's not intelligent, and it bears no 
    relationship to the point being made.  It's crass, common, and boring.
                                                       
    Do we need to swear?  Maybe not in the same sense we need to eat
    and to drink.  But it's a luxury, much like psychological counseling,
    that, when the need arises, I'd hate to have to do without.
    
    Karen
    

I have always felt that there was no such thing as a "bad word".  Or a 
"good word".  Words have no inherent worth.  I think that the word "blue"
could have as much "badness" as "sh*t", used in the right context with 
the right tone of voice.

I think expletives are an important part of language - they express feelings
that wouldn't be accurately expressed with more rational, less offensive
language.  If you are *feeling* irrational and offensive, and want to 
convey that to your audience, the use of a "bad" word (be it a "traditional
bad word" or one you have just made bad by that use) is appropriate.

What really bothers me is when I can't use a traditional "bad word" in a 
non-bad way.  Why should I have to use to word "copulation" when what I
really mean is "f*cking"?

D! (who thinks the lost art of cursing is much more interesting than
    continually saying "you ----!".)

    Why not "Oh, Condemnation! Excrement! Copulation!"

    Using the correlative swear words as adjectives evokes bizarre 
    and often senseless images.


  Mark (starts soft mmmm; ends hard (rk))

  -- Tried 'em.  Didn't like 'em.

    � C	 Do you feel guilty if you swear, ie right and wrong.
    
    Hell no!
    
    Steve

    re: .6 -- right on, Steve!
    
    I swear mostly to prove I'm not a lady.
    
    And I'm only being partly facestious -- since I was raised in a
    religious, nonswearing home, throwing off taboos on language were
    part of throwing off other taboos that limited me in other ways. 
    It was part of my general liberation (we called it consciousness-
    raising in those days) from the traditionally feminine roles I
    felt had been prescribed for me.
    
    I swear a lot less than I used to, now that I don't have to prove
    a point.  I reserve it for times of serious anger.  I try to use
    the best Anglo-Saxonisms in their original, accepted meanings --
    shit is what I rinse out of diapers and I don't often have
    intercourse.  And I'm very fond of some of the more metaphoric
    compound phrases, for instance the mental picture conjured up by
    describing someone has having a skull full of excrement.
    
    --bonnie

    I was brought up in a family where swearing was not allowed.  I
    never heard either of my parents swear.  I don't like to hear people
    swearing or saying f**k all the time for no reason.  It gets monotonous
    and they sound stupid.  But, I do enjoy swearing when I'm pissed
    off.  I think I enjoy it all the more because I started to swear
    so late in life, and because my parents dissaproved. I still feel
    that little thrill of doing something not socially acceptable.

    I still remember the first time I said f**k (always my very favorite
    swear word - the c word is my least favorite and I still *never*
    say that) out loud in public.  I was *22* and I was working in an
    office first learning to use an IBM Mag Card typewriter.  I had
    tried very hard to do something right and it came out wrong, and
    I pounded my desk and screamed, "F**K!" outloud.  The other three
    women in the office laughed hysterically and one of them said, "I
    can't believe you said that! I've always wanted to say that out
    loud!"  (I thought that was so funny because that's when I realized
    I had never said it out loud before either.)
    
    A couple of years ago I got into an argument with a very nasty rental
    office person, who treated me somewhat less than human, and I got
    so angry I started to yell at her.  I never could remember everything
    I said.  It started out something like, "Listen to me you f**king
    bitch...."  But, the next time she saw me she said, "I used to think
    you were a lovely woman, but now I know better.  I have never heard
    such horrible words come out of a woman's mouth before in my life."
     I figure she must have been living in a closet.
    
    Lorna
    

    What's really funny is to listen to 11-12 year olds who pepper their
    conversations with the more plebian swear words since they think it
    makes them seem "cool."  I can't figure out why, but they seem to just
    randomly through curse words together with no apparent rhyme or reason. 
    It sounds absolutely horrible and, to use a linguists term, "marked."
    Whereas an ordinary adult putting a "shit" or other expletive in their
    conversation generally doesn't even turn a head.
    
    I have to admit to having one of the fouler mouths around, although I
    try not to use the same 3-4 curse words over and over again (how
    boring).  I remember an argument myself and a co-worker had a few years
    ago when after a few hours of going at it, and realized just how gross
    the conversation had turned.  We never noticed, though, as it was just
    another manner of expressing an opinion.  To this day I'm a bit
    embarrassed at how base my conversations can turn.

    Gee, Jim,
    
    I've met you many times and I don't recall ever hearing you
    use a curse word! :-)
    
    On the topic, I was raised never to swear, tho my mother
    would use a 'd*mn' or a 'd*mn it' under stress. When I was
    in college, but to a much greater degree in graduate school,
    I picked up the habit of swearing. It appeared to me at the
    time to be brave and daring and liberated...etc... I still swear
    when I lose my temper...but in general have cleaned up my mouth
    due to criticism by my children as they have gotten older...
    
    and if anyone says "Bonnie! you swear!, I can't believe it!"
    talk to those with whom I chat on the phone....sigh, I've just
    'blown' my image by mentioning this...
    
    Like some of the previous noters, I tend to use swear words to
    express strong emotions or to react to situations that I find 
    particularly stressful/frustrating.
    
    Recently I was talking to an older woman in my church and I told
    her that being called into talk to my manager or supervisor
    made me think 'oh sh*t' and then I got all embarassed and
    appologised.. her response was that was a perfectly natural response
    to that sort of situation!
    
    Bonnie
    

    p.s.
    
    I once argued with my mother that sh*t was a much more acceptable
    'swear' than 'd*mn', because the former just refers to a natural
    body function, and was a legitimate Anglo-saxon word, where as
    the later is codeming a person to perdition...I don't think she
    bought it..
    
    and
    
    p.p.s yes, I do tell my kids not to use obscenities in their
    conversation and especially at the dinner table. However, I don't
    criticise them if they are speaking from strong emotion for
    a valid reason.
    
    Tho I may make a gentle reminder later, esp since they were
    the ones who got me to clean up my act years ago.

    
    
    Hi me again,
    
    		This is so good...............Well I am on the subject
    of swearing has any of you other ladies ever noticed men hate to
    hear a woman swear but assume it is acceptable from a man.

                                       
    
    		Another query....................Margaret
    
    

    re: .8
    
    IBM Mag Card typewriters? Oh, God, spare me . . . if the worst you
    did was swear at it, you were doing better than I did . . . if
    they'd had one of those firing ranges where you can bring
    inanimate objects to be shot up, I'd have taken the stupid thing
    straight down and perforated it like a seive!
    
    --bonnie

    To me, swearing is for emphasis. it's more like a spice than the
    main course, so to speak. If every other word is a cuss word then 
    it just loses its effectiveness.
    
     I find it very annoying when someone lets fly with a constant stream
    of swearing, beyond the first 5 minutes.
    
    Gregg

    I have a SUPER swear word/sentence;
    
    GDMFCSKASOBOC
    
    It has most of the good ones in it! Say that a couple of times and
    you forget what you were mad about.
    
    I swear for emphasis or when I am Pi$#ed at some inantimate object,
    never at people.
    
    BTW  How come we don't have F**KQueen? I just noticed that in a
         pre reply
    
    Does the C word bother most women? How bout the D (male) word?

    
    Steve

   I take it the C word refers to the feminine genital?  There is a
   4-letter C word for male genital which also means rooster, which 
   I rate more base than the D-word.  Do I sound like George Bush with
   my [letter]-words?  :-)

   In RE: men swearing versus women swearing:  It surprises me more
          (I admit) when some women swear but I think it shows a 
          character that is disctinctly unappealing in *both* men 
          and women.

   In RE: feeling tough or cool: I view [most of] those who swear as
          having rough edges, but being cool evokes esteem from others
          so IMHO it isn;t cool.

   In RE: frustration - I understand it; I try to control it.

    re .12
    
    From what I've seen, a lot of men hate to see or hear a woman expressing 
    anger in *any* way, shape, or form, but see nothing wrong with other 
    men doing do. I suppose women swearing would just be a special case
    of this...

        According to an elderly (female) relative;
        
             "A lady is a woman who only swears when it slips out!"
        
        She used to say this with an _evil_ grin.
        

    I've tried to stop swearing by substituting more creative words
    for the tabu-words.  Like instead of "asshole", I can now choose
    from: slimeball, pondscum, cretin face, scum-sucking lowlife, etc.
    

re .18

To quote Rosalie Sorrels:

	"A lady is a woman who is never unintentionally vulgar."

    I find it unnecessary to make a point and distracting from any point
    being made.  I feel no need to swear.  I do think less of any person
    who does it.  I don't confront anyone that does anymore.  I'm also
    generally unimpressed when someone tries to impress me by doing
    something stupid.  I am impressed by people who are in control.
    
    Swearing wasn't allowed in my home either.  I did swear as a child,
    but one day I thought about how stupid it really was and quit. 
    I remember walking down the street with my best friend shortly after.
    He started swearing about something and I stopped and told him that
    I didn't want to hear it unless he could say it without swearing.        
    In fact I said I would break off the friendship unless he stopped.
    I still remember the look on his face.  Frankly, I was unfair because
    I swore like a trooper until a couple of days before. 
    
    But as I said, I have come to accept that some people are going
    to do it thinking that somehow it makes them more powerful or
    impressive.
    
    Do I think less of women that swear?  Sometimes.  Let me explain.
    If I sense that the person swearing is conciously doing so to impress
    the listener rather than unconciously having it come out, I think
    much less of them.  I sense the concious effort from women much
    more often than I do from men.  There is also a second aspect. 
    I am a man.  It is part of my nature to be attracted to women. This
    has nothing to do with dominance or wanting to get a woman in bed
    with me.  (Is it sexist to enjoy being with women?)  Anyway, the
    attraction generally dies in me if her mouth is in the gutter.
    
    Perhaps it is unfair that a woman has two ways to loose (assuming
    she considers it a loss) and only one way to win, while a man only
    has one of each.  Yes sex has something to do with it, but not sexism.
    It's an attraction built in by nature which enhances the probability
    of the continuation of our species.
    
    Bud

    I'm with D! -- I don't think that words are either good or bad.
    They're just words. It's only the ideas they express that can be
    good or bad.
    
    I quite literally fail to understand why "shit" is unacceptable
    while "excrement" or "feces" is not. All three words describe the
    same material.
    
    (And by the way, I don't think it's any less (or more) acceptable
    for women to swear than men.)
    
    --- jerry

    Re .20
    
    "A lady is a woman who is never unintentionally vulgar"...what if
    a woman is intentionally vulgar? Is she a lady? Golly, I sure hope
    so!  ;-)
    
    Just out of curiosity...what's a gentleman?

    re .21, I am very unimpressed by people who are always in control.
    (especially of their emotions, I imagine they probably don't have
    any)
    
    Lorna
    

I don't think I swear as a way of getting attention, although sometimes
I'll let out a stream of (to me) well-put-together swear words if I happen
to hit my thumb as I'm hammering something. I'll swear even if noone is
around to hear me; it's quite cathartic.

It doesn't bother me at all to hear a person swear, male or female. However,
if every other word that comes out is a swear, I do question just how
extensive is their vocabulary.

I, too, don't understand why a person would find a swear word offensive; but
then again I don't understand why a lot of people find a lot of things to
be offensive.  
    
I remember when Dick Nixon was President and went to see one of the popular
movies of that year. He commented that he liked the movie, but he didn't
understand why there had to be so much swearing in the film. Pretty funny,
considering that when transcripts of the Nixon tapes were released, there
were paragraphs upon paragraphs containing the euphemistic phrase:
<expletive deleted>. He must have been saying "Oh darn", a lot.             

I'm glad to see that in this string, we're breaking out as it were: people
are actually writing words like "shit", "asshole" and others in toto, without 
the need to put in the obligatory "**". (I mean, shit, it's not like none of 
don't know what the words with the asterisk are). Recently, in what must have
been a moment of frustration, one of the Mods even blurted out "fuck" with
out *any* asterisks. :-)

Last night while watching a special 3 hour version of "48 Hours" - Return to
Crack Street - I was impressed that CBS allowed much of the way people *really*
talk to remain unbleeped. Words like "bullshit", "shit", "goddam" were not
edited out. (They weren't yet quite prepared to allow the BIG F word. Soon,
perhaps, in "Return To Crack Street, Part 3".)

If this keeps up, the next time I see Bonnie Reinke at a Noters Party, I'll
be able to just walk up to her and say "Hey Pisswit", not the expurgated and
rather sterile "Hey P*ssw*t"!! :-) :-)

  Alan
                                                                

    in re .25 last paragraph,
    
    yeah, but Alan, it was so much fun to see you try and pronounce
    the asterisks!
    
    Bonnie

    This reminds me of a little rhyme I heard from a friend . . .
    (form feed to protect the sensitive)
    
    
    
    Nelly bought a little plane
    And in the air did frisk
    Now wasn't she a silly dame
    Her little *
    
    

                       <*** Moderator Request ***>
    
    I realise that the open use of "bad words" in our file is generally
    within the bounds of current literary standards and thus probably okay
    on "moral" grounds.  But even something we have the right to do may be
    needlessly offensive if we actually do it in a casual way, and our
    community is a large and diverse one.  I would ask in the name of
    simple courtesy, therefore, that we not begin to casually use these
    words without the softening asterisks.
    
    						=maggie

In re .28:

> I would ask in the name of simple courtesy, therefore, that we not
> begin to casually use these words without the softening asterisks.
    
  As George Carlin once observed, "Shoot is just Shit with two 'oh's."

  I fail to see any meaningfule distinction between "shit", "sh*t",
  and "$hi#", except that some are less obvious to the VAX/VMS $
  SEARCH utility.

                                   Atlant

Well, if you think you have a significant improvement for the SEARCH utility,
you could always submit a Ph*se 0 request...

re .25, last paragraph

Is swearing the same thing as name-calling? To me, it's one thing to mutter
"Oh sh*t" if you've hit your thumb with a hammer or something. I do it a 
lot myself. But it's something else to apply a "bad word" directly to
another person -- the risk of offending is a lot greater in the latter
case. I believe this is the first unbleeped example of the latter in this 
discussion, actually applied to an individual.

Maybe not everyone would object to such name-calling, but some people are
more sensitive than others...;-) 

    Re: .31
    
    I think I'll let Bonnie explain (if she can, that is)! :-)
    
    Booooonnnnnniiiiieeeeee, where are you?
    
      Alan

    Alan,
    
    Do you mean me or Bonnie RS, if you meant my good friend Bonnie,
    she's off on pregnancy leave...if you meant me, I'll have to
    think about it, because I have absolutely no inspiration on
    the subject at the moment.
    
    Bonnie
    
    p.s. and if the where are you was mine, I was in a Career Planning
    Workshop today.

    Re: .33
    
    Yes, Bonnie Reinke, I do, indeed, mean you. 
    
    You sure keep me hangin' on. :-)
    
      Alan

    The first time I met Alan the very first thing he said to me
    was hi 'p*ss w*t'....this was in response to to mail we'd
    been having over a note in womannotes. What the note was, I
    don't recall, tho it did relate to calling people names.
    It certainly made a definite, strong 'first impression'!
    
    :-)  :-)  ;-)  ;-)
    
    Bonnie

    I think there is a time and place for everything.  IMHO, it is really
    unprofessional to hear swearing at work although I could be accused
    of doing it occassionally.  I think one has to use one's discretion
    as to when and how much.  For me, it is a release and it feels good
    to just let it all hang out verbally.  It really doesn't matter
    to me that it may be immature or silly or stupid - IT FEELS GOOD!
    Call it a cheap thrill but a thrill nonetheless.  You have to take
    the thrills where and when you can get them 'cause life is too short
    to worry about such mundane matters.
    
    Sue
    

    There is a psychological disorder known as (I believe) Turette's
    Syndrome, which results in uncontrollable cussing.
    
    Edd

RE .-1
>    There is a psychological disorder known as (I believe) Turette's
>    Syndrome, which results in uncontrollable cussing.
    
I believe Turrette's is a physiological disorder.

    Bob

    Whether it's %$@%(#&# psychological or $%&&*(# physiological, it's a
    %&%$#$%%&(@#&*%$ lousy disorder to have.
    
    :-)
    
    Pam

    I guess the virus travels downunder too, coz I got it real bad,
    but.....I go home calm at night (^;
    
    ...dale
    

    AHA! THAT's my problem!

    
    re -.1 
    
    You stole my line!

re: 864.2 (=maggie)

	>  Women who really think hard about stuff, and who tend 
        >  not to be candy-asses.
                     ^^^^^^^^^^^
	Now _this_ was a new one to me, =maggie (and I remembered it).

	Could you/someone, ummm, elaborate on the correct usage
	and definition of this term?

	I used it on the phone last night when trying to persuade
	my older, more conservative sister of something:

	[  me: "Oh, come on, don't be a candy-ass!"
          her: "What's a candy-ass?"                  
           me: "Well,... you-know...               ]


							nancy b.

Snicker. I believe it refers to someone who will 'kiss up' to other. You know;
one would you make nice to avoid heat. 
	Mez

    Basically somebody who melts in the rain, or shatters on impact...
    someone fragile who doesn't hold up well under even mild stress.  
    Sorta related to the mock-scornful comment to someone sheltering from a
    light rain:  "Oh c'mon, you're not made of sugar, you won't melt".
                                               

    RE:  .43
    
    	candy-ass:   a wimpish stick-in-the-mud
    
    re:   .44
    
    		I think your thinking of a "kiss-ass"?
    
    :-)  pat