Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    An even more interesting statistic would be the mode [the salary earned
    by most women] or even a histogram (since I'd bet women's salaries are
    poisson-distributed rather than normally).
    
    						=maggie

"Women's Lives - A Scorecard of Change; First article of a series"

"Bars to Equality of Sexes Seen as Eroding, Slowly"

By Lisa Belkin

A quarter-century after the start of the women's rights movement, American women
say that despite their gains, it is still a man's world.

Though they have seen a closing of the gap between men and women, both in the
workplace and at home, a New York Times Poll shows that most women say the goals
of the women's movement have not been fully realizedm and many say the gains
have come at too high a price.

Men, while generally expressing support for women's pursuit of equality, said
there had been more changes than women saw, with less cost to women than women
reported.  They suggested they had overcome sexism more thoroughly than women
acknowledged, and they saw less need for further changes than women did.

The basic goal of the women's movement was to eliminate the barriers that kept
women from achieving as much as men.  But the poll found that 56 percent of
women say American society has not changed enough to allow women to compete with
men on an equal basis - a view held by only 49 percent of men.

Moreover, the poll found sharp differences between women of different ages and
races, and between men and women of the same age - reflecting a dissonance and
potential tension that can rub ordinary life raw.

"Sometimes I think my husband is talking another language," said Alison Mellin
in a follow-up interview.  "He thinks he's being sympathetic and all that, but
he just doesn't get it."  Ms. Mellin is 36 years old and works in a Los Angeles
flower shop.

Some men, like Jim Colmer, a 32-year-old cleaning supplies salesman from
Detroit, say women fail to keep problems in perspective.  "I have some women
friends who have children and that's all they talk about," said Mr. Colmer, who
is single and childless.  "The women aren't trying to so-called balance
anything that men haven't balanced for years and years.  They just complain
more."

Particularly confused and frustrated are the women who came of age at the height
of the women's movement - the baby boomers between the ages of 30 and 44.  This
is a generation of women who became adults against the background of debates
on such questions as economic equity and reproductive freedom, and those debates
shaped their thinking.  Sixty-two percent of the women in that age group agreed
with the statement: "Most men are willing to let women get ahead, but only if
women do all the housework at home."

The Times Poll, conducted June 20 to 25 with a few questions repeated July 25
to 30 to check for the effect of the Supreme Court's decision on abortion,
shows that women generally identify their problems in the same general terms
as they have at least since Betty Freidan's 1963 book "The Feminine Mystique"
helped to start the women's movement.

Problems relating to equality on the job were often cited by women as the most
important ones they faced, with 23 percent of women mentioning them in the
second survey.  In that survey, 8 percent of women called abortion the most
important issue before them, but its significance may be magnified as women's
organizations turn their energies to it.

But the poll, and followup interviews, also showed nearly as large a set of
grittier and more specific concerns about how to balance family life and work.
Nineteen percent cited these problems as most important.  These concerns cut
across racial and economic lines far more clearly than some of the grander
philosophical issues of the 1960's and 1970's. Today's questions are:  "Who
takes care of the children?"  "Why do working women still do more of the
housework?"  "How do you deal with sexism that is subtle rather than overt?"

						    Women		Men
All						  Age             Age
adults   Percentage of people who say:            18-44  45+      18-44    45+

  60%    For themselves, they prefer to combine
         marriage, and children and a career       55%   40%        76%    69%

  52     Society has not changed enough to allow
	 women to compete with men on an even
	 basis					   56    55         45     54

  50     Most men they know think they are
         better than women			   56    47         53     41

  48     Men are willing to let women get ahead,
	 but only if women still do all the
	 housework at home			   57    54         35     43

  37     All things considered, there are more
	 advantages in being a man in America
	 today					   44    41         31     30

  63     Men's attitudes toward women have changed
	 for the better in the past 20 years       70    46         77     54

  59     The United States continues to need a
 	 strong women's movement to push for
	 changes that benefit women		   71    60         55     45

Here are some of the other main findings of the Times Poll, conducted in June,
of 1,025 women and 472 men.  It was intended to measure how society views
women and how women view themselves.  The margin of sampling error was plus
or minus three percentage points for women and five for men.

Thirty-three percent of the women, and 37 percent of the men, said children's
needs are slighted the most when a woman combines a job with marriage and
motherhood.  Twenty-six percent of women, and 20 percent of men, said the
marriage was slighted the most.  But only 6 percent of women and men said the
woman's job suffered the most.  Many others refused to choose, and only 17
percent of women and 18 percent of men said nothing suffered.

When asked whether women have "given up too much" in exchange for gains in
the workplace, almost half of all women say yes, as do a third of the men.
Most women say that what they gave up is time with their children and
quality of their family life.

Women still do most of the housework at home.  But, perhaps reflecting
vestiges of traditional attitudes, 61 percent of them still say that what
their husbands do is their "fair share."  Even among women with full-time
jobs and children at home, 40 percent say their husbands do their fair
share, although 42 percent say the husbands do less.  Substantial majorities
of married women say they do most of the food shopping, cooking, house
cleaning, bill paying and child care, whether they work outside the
home or not.  Men agree that their spouses do more around the house, and
about half concede that women do "more than their fair share" of household
chores.

While three-fifths of women say men's attitudes toward women have improved
in the last two decades (only half the women felt that way six years ago),
the improvement perceived is limited.  Fifty-three percent of women say that
most of the men they know think they are better than women.  Men are even
more likely to say men's views of women have improved, but 48 percent of
them say most men they know consider themselves superior to women.

Women working full time are less likely than men to call their work "a career"
as opposed to a job.  But among 18-29-year-olds, women are at least as likely
as men to call their work a career.

The optimism of women 18 to 29 was shown frequently.  Only half of them
agreed that "men still run almost everything and usually don't include women
when important decisions are made," a view held by solid majorities of older
women.  And about a quarter of the younger women, far more than in older
groups, said nothing is slighted when a woman combines work, marriage and
children.  But this group still said it supported a "strong women's movement
to push for the changes that benefit women."  Sventy-one percent of them
said the United States needed one.

    Statistics for women based on whether or not they have children would
    be more telling than those based on age alone!  It's one thing to have
    an almost-egalitarian homelife when you are just one woman and one man.  
    It's an entirely different situation when you are a mother!  I find
    that young women who have never had children vew things *MUCH* more
    optimistically than mothers do!
    
    Nancy
    

    By the way, Steve has told me by mail that he is willing to
    type in more of this article if there is interest.
    
    B

<Particularly confused and frustrated are the women who came of age at the height
<of the women's movement - the baby boomers between the ages of 30 and 44.  This
<is a generation of women who became adults against the background of debates
<on such questions as economic equity and reproductive freedom, and those debates
<shaped their thinking.  

    Well Lorna, it's looks like we aren't the only ones.  The lost
    generation is real! liesl

    RE .6
    
    There IS interest here!
    
    Thanks,
    

    Would anyone care to make observations or start discussion on the
    themes of the article thus far?  I'm particularly interested in seeing
    what the community's views are on the subject of "was it worth it?"
    
    What I have is the first article in the series.  To get others I'd
    probably have to go visit the library.  I'm willing to do this, but
    don't see the point if there's no discussion.
    
    					Steve

    Steve,
    
    There is, I believe a good deal of value in typing in interesting
    articles just so that a wider audience can read them, that transcends
    the immediate response of a discussion evolving/resulting from the
    material. I've typed in some things that I thought were important
    (and clipped far more that I never found time to type in!) I think
    that if you can find the time to type the rest in that many readers
    will find the material as interesting a valuable as I have.
    
    I'd encourage women who read this series who find something that
    particulary strikes them, to start a note on the topic and leave
    this note available for Steve or any other =wn= membe to add
    more if they can.
    
    Bonnie

    While what's been entered so far is intriguing, it hasn't had
    sufficient detail to really let me form an opinion that I could
    post.  I'd love to see more.
    
    --bonnie

    since, you asked for opinions, Steve....
    
    I would have to agree with --bonnie's assessment that what has been
    presented so far is not fleshed out enough to form an opinion on the
    validity of the survey and it's findings.
    
    You ask 'was it worth it?'  For me, yes it has been.  And no it
    hasn't.  I am at a loss to identify exactly _what_ I have given _up_,
    so it is difficult for me to assess what gains I have made against that
    particular background.
    
    In living life and making choices, opportunity costs are always a
    factor one must consider.  If I must work, and I must, I would prefer
    to compete on a equal basis.  It _is_ difficult. Still.
    
    I have no children.  If I did, my choices would be more complex.  I am
    married.  In making career decisions, I certainly study their impact on
    Rick and their effect upon the relationship; however, I have never felt
    I was 'giving up' an opportunity when I felt the cost was too high in
    terms of what I have that I wish to keep.  There have been some close
    calls.
    
    My marriage does not suffer by my working and going to school and being
    politically active and artistically inclined.  Aside from fifteen years
    of growth, I am essentially the woman Rick married.
    
    The past two decades have certainly seen significant advances.  Like
    anyone seeking equality, I will not see 'goodness' until the barriers
    to equality are removed.
    
    Do I believe that men still run things?  Couched in such nebulous
    language my response would have to be, 'Mostly.'  I do see men giving
    lip service to equality of the sexes, many even who sincerely believe
    they want it, and yet women trying to compete on an equal basis are
    viewed as wanting to run things themselves.  While this is not
    universal, it is still pervasive.
    
    I am appalled that so _much_ attention is paid to who pairs up the
    socks and empties the litter box.  Yes, all of this is of value and
    women, on balance, still do most of it.  It would seem that more women
    than men place a high value on domestic order even if the joy of
    actually performing these tasks is experienced about equally.  If this
    is a given, then the results are not surprising. Is this fair?
    Probably.
    
    If one is to look at the cost of advances in equality in terms of the
    impact upon 'society,' I believe that we are struggling with 'norms'
    and trends open to conflicting interpretation and studies that do not
    look at a broad view.
    
      Example:  Numerous studies have indicated that small children [18mos.
    		to 5 yrs] in daycare experience a significantly higher
    		incidence of childhood diseases, as well as colds and flu,
    		than do their peers who stay at home.
    
    		Conclusion:  As working mothers become more prevalent,
    		  children are more at risk.  Daycare is harmful.
    
    		Other studies indicate that of children in the primary
    		grades [K to 4], children who have spent at least one year
    		in daycare experience a significantly lower incidence of
    		absenteeism than their peers who have not.
    
    		Conclusion:  Children in daycare develope stronger immune
    		  systems.  Daycare promotes hardiness in small children.
    
    	It would seem to me that neither battery of studies is relevant in
        and of itself and that taken as a whole they show that children
        actually do get chicken pox and colds.
    
    That women instigate divorce more frequently than in days past is not
    a trend that would at first glance seem to hold any hope.  Yet, if women
    have attained an independence that does not consign them to the
    economic reality of a perpetual one-down station in life, is this not
    'good'?  Much circular reasoning is trotted out...women are more
    restless [maybe], women are less satisfied [doubtful].  In looking at
    the statistics we must decide whether we are measuring a decline in
    happiness or an upsurge of empowerment.
    
    On balance, I detest all this talk about 'women's place'...as if we
    need to define a new set of attributes and limitations to replace the
    old.  It is my hope that with time and much dedicated effort all will
    experience the freedom to choose and to grow and to define their own
    world.
    
      Ann

    Ok, I'll type in the rest of the first installment sometime in the
    next couple of days.  But don't expect a lot more "detail"; there is
    more summarizing and postulating than "hard data".
    
    If I can find back issues at the Nashua library, I'll look for the
    other installments.
    
    			Steve

    
    Thought I'd add this here...though I could've sworn there was an
    item on 'the Mommy track' in this file...hmmm...
    
    Anyway there was a recent ny Times article countering the 'mommy
    track' idea.  As you all recall the 'mommy track' issue was that
    due to maternity leave and nuturing women focus less on their jobs
    and therefore cost companies more to employ.  Now much has been
    discussed about this topic, how women still contribute their
    40 hours a week, etc....but this article takes a different slant.
    
    broadly paraphasing...
    
    Women are the only ones who can get pregnant and have the child.
    Women are typically the ones to be most closely tied to raising/
    nuturing/caring for the child.  This is costly to the company.
    However, why has no one mentioned that MEN are in much greater
    percentages alcohol and drug abusers...very costly to companies.
    Men are in much larger percentages more likely to be convicted of
    some crime...costing the company much money.  Men are more likely
    to be involved in political/power struggles ... costing the company
    in wasted energy/time/productivity.  So, in reality it costs much
    more, or is at least more risky to employ men, yet no attention
    or very little is given to these attributes.  Society accepts that
    some/many/few/whatever men will exhibit these characteristics, so
    its a given.  an acceptable risk/cost.  So what's the big deal
    with women getting pregnant and costing a few $$???
    
    that's the gist of the article.  interesting.  
    
    comments?
    
    deb
    

    The article is in note 499.35 of this notesfile.....
    
    -Jody