Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    
    All of us have illusions about what life is supposed to be like,
    what our wedding will be like, what our family and home should
    be like.  But life doesn't fit our expectation usually... thats 
    why holidays like Christmas are so difficult for so many people.
    Because they don't live up to our childhood expectations of how
    things should be.
    
    The death of a family member is the most difficult thing in the
    world to contend with.  And if the death was a suicide, it
    brings more than grief, it brings guilt and regret and anger.
    All of these feelings are normal and justified but we are so
    hard on ourselves... we don't allow ourselves to feel certain
    emotions because we are so afraid to lose control.  Afraid that
    we too will be lost in the depths of despair.
                                                           
    As we get older, as we survive the many crisis we encounter in life,
    we let go of our expectations and we take life as it comes.
    
    Everyone goes through a period of time when they confront themselves.
    When they agonize over the injustices and hurts that they suffered
    in their youth.  When they cry the tears they never allowed themselves
    to cry and forgive those loved ones who hurt them (deliberately
    or otherwise).  
    
    We can't change the past.  We can't make it different.  We can't
    go back and right all of the hundreds of wrongs that were done to
    us.  What we can do is lock ourselves in a room with a bottle of
    wine and all of the old pictures and tokens from the past and allow
    ourselves to experience it all once again... to cry all of the
    unspilled tears.. and then to pack it all away and put it behind
    us.
    
    There comes a time in the life of every adult when they no longer
    allow the happenings of childhood to influence the reality of today.
    Its over now... right or wrong, good or bad, its over... let it go.  
                                                            
    You have someone who loves you and a wonderful life ahead.  It will
    be what you make it.  Choose happiness, choose love, make it into
    what you want it to be, measure it with your heart.
    
    If you need to seek professional help, just for awhile, just while
    you are going through this, then do so.  But know that this too
    will pass and better days are coming.  And be good to yourself,
    you are loved, you are not alone.
                   
    Mary

    Please, please, please--
    
    Get yourself some counselling.  You have had some major shakeups, and
    you say you are going to be married in the spring.  While this is a
    happy occasion, it can't help but be stressful, too.  (I know--I got 
    married last fall!)  
    
    By all means keep communicating through this conference, your mother,
    friends, whoever--but do search out some competent counselling that
    will allow you to let your guard down and feel the grief.  
    
    Believe it or not, it's very natural to have major losses in your life,
    not feel/show grief;  and then have a "distant" relative die, and you
    fall apart.  One reason is that in a way it is "safe" to--the loss
    isn't as close.  
    
    Another thing, grief can't be hurried.  It's a lot like when you have
    major surgery;  it takes quite a while before you can feel anything in
    the area where you had the surgery.
    
    Be careful of yourself right now, and don't feel that you have to be a
    brave soldier about it all.  Believe it--there is a mid-point between
    that and falling to pieces.  
    
    Please look into counselling, and please take care of yourself.  I am 
    so sorry for your losses, and pray for your comfort and help.
    
    Jane

    Thanks for opening up to us, here; you are very brave to do that, and
    it is respected.  I think just the act of writing this will help you
    keep it in perspective; you are facing things.
    
    You may find some value in a previous note in this conference; note
    374.*, "Dealing with Death", has several very moving stories, and several
    people have described what they did to cope.  Let us know how you are
    doing, if you can...we're best at listening.
    
    DougO

    As someone who's been through two bouts of serious depression and
    several bouts of lesser depression . . . 
    
    1.  Don't try to tough it through alone.  Find someone you can
        talk to, who's used to counselling people, to help you through
        this rough time.  It doesn't matter if it's your clergyperson, a
        professional counsellor, a psychiatrist, someone you locate
        through EAP, just so there's someone impartial you can talk to. 
    
    2.  Let go of how you think you "should" feel.  If you're unhappy
        and grieving inside, then you're unhappy and grieving, and no
        amount of telling yourself how happy you should be about your
        upcoming marriage will make you happy.  There's no shame in 
        grief, and you've had a lot of grief in the past few years.  
    
    Finding someone to help you through is particularly important.  If
    you uncover common but terrifying emotions such as anger at your
    lost loved ones for deserting you, fear you'll do the same thing
    your did, fear of your own death, the impartial person can help
    make it less threatening.  He or she can reassure you that your
    reactions are normal and don't mean that you didn't love your
    father, can help make the revelations less of a surprise -- we
    tend to only see things we're ready to see and cope with.  Trained
    people are used to dealing with this kind of situation and know
    lots of ways to make it easier for you.
    
    The fact that you're able to ask for help here is already a good
    sign.  I couldn't ask for help the last time until I literally
    quit functioning in the middle of shoveling the snow off my
    driveway -- I just sat there on the car's bumper and cried and
    cried and cried before I could drag myself inside, and then I sat
    on the floor beside the phone and cried for a while longer.  When
    I finally got a little bit of control over myself I could admit I
    needed help, but I could have spared myself a lot of pain and
    grief if I had admitted earlier that I was not going to be able to
    tough this one out. 
    
    --bonnie

    I second what Bonnie just said...EAP is especially good as a referral
    resource if you have it in the UK (I think that's where SUBURB:: is
    located, isn't it?).   You've been thru a really terrible time and it's
    no least wonder that you're not able to carry on as though nothing had
    happened!  Do please find someone to help you sort it all out and get
    it into a good perspective.
    
    (What does the "F" stand for, btw?  Drives me mad not to know  :-)
    
    						=maggie

    Weddings are often times when burried stresses come to the surface
    just *because* they are supposed to be happy times...and also because
    it is a time when we feel connected to our families and our traditions.
    
    I'll add a third (or nth) to those who've encouraged you to find
    a competant professional to unburden yourself to. You owe it to
    your self.
    
    Bonnie
    
    (p.s. Maggie, ELF shows a Francesca Holloway in Reading.)

    
    
    I'm so sorry for the pain you've felt, and are feeling now.  I
    understand.  My father died suddenly (car wreck) five years ago last
    month.  I, too, am the eldest, and I cried for maybe five minutes
    during the days that followed his death, including the funeral.  I have
    never been able to just open up and hurt until last month.  On the date
    of his death last month, I finally told my best friend and roommate
    that I wanted to go to the cemetary to see him.  I am also very good at
    hiding my feelings, she had had no indication that I was suppressing
    my pain.  She said she wanted to
    come with me, and gave me such strength by being there.  She stayed
    by me through the storm, I grieved and cried and hurt at the unfairness
    and the finality of it.  She held me while I relived what I felt during
    those days, and it was amazing the clarity of the things I recalled,
    details, things said and my reaction at the time, although I didn't
    actually react then.  
    
    And since then, I have felt such peace inside. 
    It still hurts; I still cry and miss my Dad, but I know inside that
    it's okay, it's perfectly reasonable and normal to feel that way.
    
    I am happy that you are engaged and planning your wedding.  It should
    be a joyful time for you, but you have to let the pain from your losses
    go in order to allow yourself to feel the joy.  I am concerned that you
    don't feel you have anyone to talk to...please, please find somebody, a
    friend, your lover, a counselor, SOMEBODY who you can trust and be open
    with.  Take a chance.  Let yourself feel, and let yourself feel some
    peace.
    
    I wish you love and peace.  Take care.  
    
      
    
    
    

    I am going to add to those here in saying you are doing what is
    natural and right, right now.  Your wedding is still a long way
    off  - it won't hurt anything to do your grieving now.
    
    Let your fiance know how you feel.  If necessary, print your basenote
    and hand it to him as a way of starting.  Even if all he can do
    is hold you while you cry, it can be comforting.  Do the same with
    your mom and the rest of the family.  We *can* take turns at being
    the one who is strong - and now just doesn't seem to be your moment.
    
    I've been the strong one in my family since my mom's death 2 years
    ago.  Most of my tears have been shed in private - and they are
    still being shed at odd moments.  But whenever I have just *had*
    to reach out, someone has been there.
    
    Good luck to you.  May you grow as a result of this, and find your
    peace.
    
    Alison

    First, let me say that I understand what it is to bury such feelings
    for a long time and to "cover up" what's going on inside from even
    those closest to you.  And know that there are many who share
    similar experiences; as previous replies have indicated, there are
    a number of resources you might look at and I particularly join the 
    chorus in encouraging professional counselling.
    
    In your note, you said something that was very important:
    
    � . . .but with these feelings inside me I feel like I'm losing 
    � control, I just know I'm going to crack up sooner or later.
    
    In admitting and writing that, I think you've hit upon the heart
    of the matter.  I believe that your feelings need to come out,
    that you need to lose the iron-willed control necessary to keep
    them buried for so long.  And I believe that if you don't allow
    yourself to express those feelings, that your psyche and/or body
    will, at some point, take over and you could experience a break-
    down of some sort.  But this needn't be the case and I think that,
    in taking a this first step of sharing your feelings, you've begun
    a healing process.  I encourage you to find a counselor you're 
    comfortable with and continue this process; if you continue faith-
    fully on this path you've begun, it can and will, with time get
    better.
    
    I wish you the courage and strength to lose control and mourn
    and grieve in a healing way.
    
    Steve

    Oh, my dear, I am so very sorry.  I have walked the road you
    are on now and I just wish I could say something, anything, that
    would take it all away.  There isn't any shortcut out of grief.
    I learned the hard way that it comes to "grieve now or grieve later"
    but it has to be settled, both in heart and mind.
    
    I strongly suggest---with all the others who have, also---that you
    seek some counseling to help you sort out the feelings that are
    all mixed inside you.  
    
    The day of my youngest son's birthday is always both sad and happy
    for me; sad because my beloved uncle took his own life that day.
    That is a special kind of sorrow that needs to be dealt with, above
    and beyond the grief that he is gone from you.
    
    I lost my father 3 weeks after my husband died.  And because we
    were not close, I felt that I had managed to deal with his death
    quite well.  3 years later, on the anniversary of his death, I fell
    apart, and it was only through counseling that I managed to finally
    say goodbye.
    
    Please keep in touch with us.  If ever you need someone to talk
    with, you have a world in front of your fingertips.  Use that source
    as often as you want and you need it.  
    
    God's grace to you.....Marilyn
    
    

    I agree with those who have encouraged you to seek couneling -
    especially now that you are to be married.  Marriage is a major life
    change and you may have trouble adapting to this change if you haven't
    come to terms with your grief.  The stress could well make you quite
    ill.  Your marriage could get off to a shaky start.  You owe it to
    yourself to get help.  It's not your 'duty' to be strong all the time.
    There are people who specialize in helping people deal with the death
    if loved ones.

        I, too, am sorry to hear that you are having a hard time. Have
        courage--it happens to most of us, although many never admit it.
        I agree that it is better to let lose the control in a
        controlled manner than trying to hold it in till it explodes. It
        is quite doubtful that you can hold it all in or that you will
        be better off for having done so.
        
        Talk with your fianc� and have him hold you while you cry, or
        listen while you vent your anger, or whatever it is that you
        need to do to let it go nondistructively. Don't try to force
        yourself to let it out in any specific way either. That's just
        another form of overcontrol.
        
        Talk, too, if you can, with someone who counsels professionally,
        a person in the psychiatric or psychological counselling
        business or a priest, rabi or minister as appropriate.
        
        Do remember that changing marital status or residences or
        employment are all about as stressful as having a child or
        losing an immediate family member. Both the positive and the
        negative changes are very stressful, and we often end up going
        through more than one at a time--moving when we marry or take a
        new job. It can pile up, so if you keep the stress in from the
        problems that are currently bothering you it will only become
        harder when you marry. That's why everyone is saying in some
        manner or another that you need to deal with it now. The hard
        part is suggesting the right way for you to deal with it. In the
        end only you can really know how best to deal with it. The rest
        of us can only make suggestions.
        
        ... and care, which we do.
        
        JimB.

    Being strong doesn't mean you have to keep all the feelings inside.
    Sometimes being strong means letting it go.  Please seek professional
    counselling and keep us posted of your progress.
    
    We all care!
    
    Carol
    

    In addition to note 374 in this file, "Dealing with Death", which
    was mentioned before, here are a few other references that might
    help.
    
    HUMAN_RELATIONS
    247 - Necessary Losses
    323 - Dealing with Death
    
    DEJAVU
    563 - On Death
    961 - Death
    1022 - Mourning
    
    My sympathies are with you - and I second (or third) the recommendation
    to find a sympathetic and helpful counselor...
    
    -Jody
    

    Thank you for all being so caring and trying to help me, especially
    to those of you who have responded to me via EM and shared your
    painful experiences with me.
    
    I saw my mum at the weekend and eventually told her how I was feeling.
    I must have cried for hours, but I know it did me good.
    We had a long chat and she was super. She actually works in the
    medical profession and so knows a lot of very good councelors. She is
    going to arrange an appointment for me to go and have a chat with
    one of them.
    Entering my note on here made me realise that it was time I tryed
    to talk about it. 
    
    I still feel very confused, angry, upset and guilty. All these emotions
    are fighting inside me and I just can't deal with them all at once,
    I need to try and deal with just one emotion at a time, yet I can't
    seem to separate them. Hopefully a councellor will be able to help
    me do this.
    
    I suppose I haven't been able to talk about it before because I
    am so mixed up, and anyone listening wouldn't be able to work out
    what I was exactly trying to say, or how I really felt - sometimes
    I feel like I'm going insane, and to describe this to anyone would
    probably result in me being locked up !!
    
    I have now taken the first very shaky steps to try and help myself
    and hopefully it will become easier with time - as the saying goes,
    the longest journeys always start with the first step.
    
    Thank you all for helping me to take those first steps, although
    I've never met you, I owe you all a lot more than you will ever
    know.
    
    Thank you
    
    Francesca.
    p.s if its alright with you I would still like to use this note
    to talk about the difficulties I am facing and the counceling I
    hope to get, it helps to talk to an 'annoymous' audience.
    

                       <*** Moderator Response ***>
                                                   
    <--(.15)
    
�    p.s if its alright with you I would still like to use this note
�    to talk about the difficulties I am facing and the counceling I
�    hope to get, it helps to talk to an 'annoymous' audience.
    
    Yes of course it's alright!
    
    						=maggie

    
    
    
    
    Hi..........
    
    		I think you deserve a medal for what you've been through.
    I believe you need time out and really you deserve it.  Get away somewhere
    by yourself and just relax and think, relax and think.  All the
    best, I'll be thinking of you........Mags
    
    
                                                         

    
    
    To those of you who have written to me via EM, I appologise for
    my lack of reply, I have actually tried to write back to you all,
    but there have been problems with the message router hence they
    have not reached you.
    
    So, to all of you, THANK YOU, without you're caring thoughts and
    support I would not have been able to come to terms with all of
    this and made this first vital, but difficult, steps.
    
    Your kindness touches me deeply.
    
    Fran.

    
    
    Anita,
    
    Thank you for your message, your words and thoughts really touched
    me, I have tryed replying to you via EM, but unfortunately it keeps
    being sent back to me.
    I actually went over to my mums on Saturday and poured my heart
    out to her. My courage came from entering my feelings on here. It
    made me realise that it was time I opened up and admitted that I
    need help.
    I'm sorry if my initial note and feelings upset you, and made you
    think of your own loss, but, now I know, it is not a bad thing to
    set time aside to think about the loved ones we have lost and cry
    for them, afterall they were a great part of our life and deserve
    to be missed and remembered.
    
    
    To all of you who have helped me..
    
    I have an appointment with my doctor this evening, as he is the
    only one who can refer me to the specialised councellor I need to
    see. I am feeling very apprehensive about this as I still feel nervous
    of opening up and talking to somebody else about my feelings.
    I'm sure it will just all come out in a garbled mess he won't
    understand what I'm saying, but I guess it's something I must do.
    
    I'll let you know how I get on
    
    Wish me luck!!
    Fran.

    _VERY_ best luck, Fran!
    
    And don't worry about the therapist not being able to sort out what
    you're saying...they're trained to do exactly that!
    
    						=maggie

    
    Well, the first step has been taken. I went and saw my doctor last
    night and told him about all my fears, feelings and emotions.
    He was great, he let me pour my heart out to him and cry all that
    I wanted.
    
    He is now referring me to a specialised psycho-therapist who will
    be able to help me.
    
    When I got home last night I opened up to my fiancee and told him    
    how I have been feeling, he was really great with me, let me vent
    all my anger, my tears and try to answer all my whys.
    
    The whys are the hardest thing for me to understand.
    Why did Dad leave us,
    Why have all the people I so dearly loved, left me
    Why, at only 21, have I had to suffer so much
    Why can't I cope with all this
    
    Why-o-why can't I come to terms with all this and live a normal
    life, enjoy all the good things that are around me and just concentrate
    on showing all the love I have for the family I still have.
    
    I just need to feel GOOD again and appreciate life.   
    
    All my hopes are pinned on the therapist I will be seeing, I just
    hope he/she doesn't let me down.
    
    I hope I don't expect too much, I still feel so lost.
    
    Sorry for rambling on again
    
    Fran.

Fran, you are living a 'normal' life. It's amazing how many people are in or
have been in therapy for major life-traumas or just general 'i-cannot-cope'.
If/when you start getting comfortable with it, and start mentioning it casually
to people, you too will be amazed at how many 'normal' folks start telling you
about their therapy. I know! :-)
	Mez

    re: .22
    
    Congratulations, Fran.  I feel certain that, in days to come,
    you'll appreciate even more fully the importance of this first
    step you've taken.
    
    I'll hazard a guess at some of your "why"s, especially,

    � Why-o-why can't I come to terms with all this and live a normal
    � life, enjoy all the good things that are around me and just concentrate
    � on showing all the love I have for the family I still have.
    
    You can and, in fact, are coming to terms with the sadness of the
    past.  If I could offer one suggestion it would be to be good to
    yourself by remembering that mourning isn't a "microwave" kind of
    process - it takes time.  It takes time when experienced at the
    time of the loss and can take even longer when it's been delayed,
    as it apparently has been in your case.  I'm learning with time that,
    as the saying goes, "the heart has it's seasons" and that it's best
    for me to allow my feelings to express themselves in their time
    (vs. my inclination to have everything "fixed" immediately).  Remember
    that you're involved in a process (vs. an event) and it will take
    some time.
    
    Another thing I've learned is that sometimes a healthy process 
    doesn't feel happy or joyful, and that's o.k.  I've come to believe 
    that to some extent, it's necessary to feel a certain amount of sorrow
    and loss in order to most fully appreciate happiness and fulfilment.
    In time and with good help, you will feel good again and, I suspect,
    come to appreciate life more fully than ever before.
    
    One other thought:
    
    � All my hopes are pinned on the therapist I will be seeing, I just
    � hope he/she doesn't let me down.
    
    I've found that what works for me is to approach therapy in much
    the same way I would in getting my car repaired.  Sometimes I've
    had success with the first auto mechanic I went to; at other times
    and places I've found that I had to shop around a bit.  I don't
    know if you have the same options where you are, but if so, give
    yourself the gift of finding the therapist who's right for you.
    
    Look for someone with whom you feel comfortable and trusting.  This
    is, admittedly, tricky because the the feelings you're experiencing
    are, by definition, uncomfortable and trusting a stranger with them
    can be a somewhat fearful experience.  The only suggestion I can
    give here is to trust your instincts; if, after a session or two,
    you just don't feel comfortable with that particular therapist,
    seek another.  
    
    And above all, know that you have the best wishes of lots of people.
    
    Steve

    Hello Fran,
    
    I want to share a resource with you that helped me when my best friend
    committed suicide and that I now use with folks that I counsel in my
    organization.  I often turn to books to help me gain clarity and
    insight into problems.  Some of my best friends seem to be books --
    here are a few that may offer help:
    
    
    		Goodbye to Guilt: Releasing Fear Through Forgiveness
    		----------------------------------------------------
    
    		By Gerald G. Jampolsky, M.D.
                Pub. Bantam Books, 1985  
    
    		
    		Teach Only Love
    		---------------
    
    		By Gerald G. Jampolsky, M.D.
    		Pub. Bantam Books, 1984
    
    
    		Growing Through Personal Crisis
    		-------------------------------
    
    		By Hariet Golder Lerner, Ph.D.
    		To Order, Call Interface, Watertown Massachusetts USA
    		617-924-1100 (I'm not sure how to call from overseas)
    
    
    
    
			Sending you Love and Light!
    
    
    				Sharon
    
    
    

    Hi,
    Hold on -- you're on the right track!  It does take time.
    
    Another guess about "whys" -- the "why can't I cope with this?"
    
    You're feeling all the pain now that you kept yourself numb from for
    all those years since your father's death.  To cope with one crushing
    loss after another, you put your feelings of grief into cold storage.  
    It worked in that it spared you pain at the time, but it was pain
    deferred.  One more tragedy (your aunt) and one more stress (your
    marriage plans) blew the fuse.  No more refrigeration.
    
    Right now, you're experiencing "pins and needles" -- normal pain when
    part of you that has been chilled starts to warm up again.
    
    Just remember that the worst pain of "pins and needles" is when the
    feeling *first* starts to come back.  Once you're warm you can move
    normally and the pain is just a memory.
    
    It's worth it to hold on through this.  Good luck!!

    I'd like to help set your mind at ease about your fear of losing 
    control, cracking-up, and then being locked-up.  Insanity isn't like
    that.  In fact, people who think they're going insane, don't.  The
    people who do become psychotic usually don't think that there's any-
    thing wrong with them.  They're convinced that other people are crazy.
    You're fearing the release of damned-up emotions, and when you're ready
    to experience them, you will.  To the extent that you haven't felt 
    these emotions yet, the part of you that contains them has been locked-
    up all along.  You're in touch with a restricted - but not a distorted
    - reality.  It's the distortion of reality that's the hallmark of
    psychosis.
    
    

    
    I also have a small, immediate family. In many cases it hurt a great
    deal to lose a family member for one reason or another. But I've
    come to realize that family is what you make it. When I married
    my wife, I became part of their family and they in turn became part
    of mine. We have a son who is obviously family. And some day he
    will marry and have grandchildren; more family! And when you include
    close friends they feel like family too. Also there are many sisters
    on my wife's side. I've got nieces and nephews coming out of my
    ears. I used to think that I had or was part of a small family and
    at times that could be depressing for different reasons. But I've
    since changed my view of what "family" is. Every day I learn that
    I'm part of an ever growing and changing family. I still have very
    close ties with my immediate family and yes it will hurt once they
    depart just as it will hurt someone once I depart. I grieve at times,
    and to be honest, I've had difficulty coping too. But I'm learning
    that "family" extends itself beyond my own bloodline. You may even
    find difficulty coping with your new found family! But it's worth
    it, enjoy!
    
    Regards,
    
    	Jim Kearns  
         

    
    Well, I've just had a really hellish 3 days. I honestly don't think
    I have ever felt so low.
    I had to take yet another day off work yesterday and even my SO
    took the day off so that he could stay with me.
    I just had, and still do,this feeling of complete desperation with
    no actual means to an end. 
    My mum came round to see me and made me get out of bed and dressed
    and talk about my fears and feelings (she's trained in this area)
    We then went to the pyscho-therapist I'm registered to, I'm actually
    only on the, 2 month, waiting list. But, for the first time ever
    my mum pulled rank and got me to the top (I must be in a bad way,
    'cos in 21 years my mum has NEVER pulled any strings or excerted
    her authority)
    I had a chat with the therapist and she says I am suffering from
    depression, but I can be cured!
    I have got an other appointment with her today to start my treatment.
    
    I'm trying to be as positive about this as I can, but it's not easy.
    I seem to be bursting in to tears every 5 minutes all over nothing.
    The only positive thing I seem to have done is get up and come into
    work this morning. All I wanted to do was stay locked up in my house
    and face no-one, but I forced myself to come in.
    I can't actually say that I'm doing any good here, but at least
    I'm up and about again. I'm also very lucky to have a very
    understanding team leader and boss, who are supporting me all the
    way with this.
    
    I'm sorry I sound all depressed again, but I thought I'd keep you
    posted on my progress (not doing very well, am I?) Hopefully I'll
    feel better tomorrow, once I've seen the therapist.
    
    Thanks for 'listening' AGAIN!!
    

You're doing wonderfully! For heavens sake, you are expecting much to much of
yourself, much to fast. It's great that you're connecting with your boyfriend
and mom. It's great that you've started with a therapist.

You should absolutely, positively give yourself more slack. 
	Mez

    Indeed, Fran.  I second Mez's comments...you're doing fine,
    especially given how whacked you've been feeling.  Do give yourself
    a bit more room; not everything happens overnight!
    
    						=maggie
    
    (Your mum sounds super)

    Hang in there, Fran.  You're doing great.  We all are ARE "listening,"
    and we really do care...want to see you feeling better!
    I know it hurts, but it's the storm before the calm.
    
    You're much tougher than you think you are...give yourself a hand.  We
    all are.
    
    Anita
    

    Good luck,  Fran. You're doing the right things, and life will get
    better, though probably not as quickly as you would like.

    One good thing is that depression is the disease psychiatrists are
    best  at  treating.  The prognosis is quite good. There is quite a
    collection   of   anti-depressant  drugs  which  can  often  help,
    typically with only minor side effects.

    Make sure  that  you feel comfortable with your therapist. I don't
    know  how  much  choice  you  have, but it is worth looking around
    until you find one you feel comfortable with. A good therapist can
    be  amazingly  helpful,  while  one you don't fit well with can be
    useless.

--David

a little more on finding a therapist you're comfortable with:

I have respect and awe for people who can 'shop around'. Each time I was at the
end of my rope when I broke down and decided to find one. And at that point, I
was in no shape to judge. I know others who have been similarly silly (if I may
make light of my own and others difficulties), and still others who just pushed
themselves to shop around.

I got a mediocre one the first time. I got a more-than-adequate one the second
time.

If you find you have a less than perfect therapist, you can shop around then,
or when they at least get you a little better.

Basically, I'm saying don't feel bad if you don't get around to it!
	Mez

    Fran, speaking from my own bouts of depression and recovery, it
    may be a long time before you perceive yourself as feeling better. 
    But YOU ARE GETTING BETTER.  Admitting you need help and you
    aren't as strong as you'd like to be means you're already getting
    better.  It's hard to believe that when you feel like you're
    falling apart and can't even find all the pieces of what used to
    be you, but it's true.
    
    One thing I found to be helpful was to keep a journal of my worst
    emotions so I could look back on it and see how much better I was
    feeling.  Without it, sometimes I felt like I was at the bottom of
    a deep dark hole and the hole was caving in on top of me.  By
    looking at some of my thoughts from weeks or months ago, I could
    see that the pit wasn't nearly as deep or as dark as it used to
    be, and there were lots of people holding ropes for me to cling to
    and pull myself out.
    
    Hang in there -- I know it all feels hopeless and sometimes you
    can't even remember what it felt like to be happy and whole, but
    you will be happy and whole again.
    
    --bonnie

    
    I spent 2 hours with the therapist yesterday and I talked about
    everything. Not just the deaths but also my school life, college
    life, Geoff (my fiancee) my relationship with my Mum and the rest
    of my family. I even managed a few smiles along the way (never thought
    I'd do that again :-))  
    It was so good to just talk it all out with someone, and for them
    to be listening to it all without me making them feel uncomfortable.
    
    I can't say I feel 100% yet, even I know that's asking too much,
    but I feel 'better'.
    It's as though I've been carrying round a very heavy weight on my
    shoulders and now a small part of it has been lifted off, not much,
    but just enough to make me feel that life does go on and I can go
    on with it.
    If a little bit is taken off each time I see her (the therapist)
    I can beat this thing.
    
    I've got to go and see her again next Tuesday, and every Tuesday
    thereafter for as long as it takes.
    
    
    Thank you all so very very much for your help and advice, I can
    know see a very faint light at the end of this dark tunnel, and
    I know it will glow brighter with every day that I survive.
    
    Thank you
    
    Much love to you all
    
    Fran.
    
    (I'll still keep you all posted, 'cos I'm sure I've still got a
    few rough days ahead)
    

    Hello Fran,
    
    Just when I was thinking about you, I found this lying next to the copy 
    machine near my office.  I hope it helps.
    
    
    
    			RULES FOR BEING HUMAN
    			---------------------
    
    1.  You will recieve a body.  You may like it or hate it, but it will
        be yours for the entire period this time around.
    
    2.  You will learn lessons.  You are enrolled in a full-time informal
        school called Life.  Each day in this school you will have the 
        opportunity to learn lessons.  You may like the lessons or think
        them irrelevant and stupid.
    
    3.  There are no mistakes, only lessons.  Growth is a process of trial 
        and error: experimentation.  The 'failed' experiments are as much a
        part of the process as the experiemnt that ultimately 'works'.
    
    4.  A lesson is repeated until learned.  A lesson will be presented to
        you in various forms until you have learned it.  When you have
        learned it, you can go on to the next lesson.
    
    5.  Learning lessons does not end.  THere is no part of life that does  
        not contain its lessons.  If you are alive, there are lessons to be
        learned.
    
    6.  "There" is not better than "here".  When you're "there" has become
        a "here", you will simply obtain another "there" that will again
        look better than "here".
    
    7.  Others are merely mirrors of you.  You cannot love or hate
        something about another person unless it reflects something you
        love or hate about yourself.
    
    8.  What you make of your life is up to you.  You have all the tools
        and resources you need.  What you do with them is up to you. The 
        choice is yours.
    
    9.  Your answers lie inside you.  The answers to Life's questions lie
        inside you.  All you need do is look, listen, and trust.
    
    10. You wil forget all this.
    
    11. You can remember it whenever you want.
    
    
    
    				HUGS,
    
    				Sharon
    
    
    
    
    

    I wish I had something to say to you to make all this just go away,
    but I don't.  But I just wanted to say...hang in there.
    
    I read this quote just yesterday and will pass it along to you.
    I've been doing some additional reading  in preparation for some
    volunteer work I plan to do in the fall.
    
    "Not everything that is faced
    Can be changed,
    But nothing can be changed
    Until it is faced."
    
    Baldwin
    
    from the book Into The Light/A Guide For Battered Woman
    by Leslie Cantrell
    
    Regards,
    
    Linda
    
     

    
    
    	I have no quotes for you to help you,
    	There aren't any good advices I can give you,
    	But if it's any help at all,
    	I am hoping and praying too for your recovery.
    
    	Hang in there, Fran, Life can be good for you too.
    	
    	Good luck and God bless.
    
    	Marcel

    I'm pulling for you, Fran!  
    
    Take lots of deep breaths and DON'T GIVE UP!
    
    
    Carol (also a proud survivor of manic depression!)

    Keep Talking. Talk, Talk, Talk. Sad is sad. Its ok to be sad and I 
    eventually felt sad less often. I went to a Growing through Grief
    seminar to help me deal with some of the sad/angry feelings. I found 
    a group of people who shared my sad feelings through their own losses.
    We cried together for me/ for them / and for the loved ones we missed.
    
    It will get better! It did for me!
    janet-SURVIVOR- Chemical-postpardem and grief all at once it was
    tough!!

Fran,

Congratulate yourself.  


Your life  exploded , and you are bringing it together in a new pattern,
with a different design, an altered structure, a stronger framework.


You have made an amazing amount of progress since entering the base note!

   .0> I'm not actually sure why I'm writing this note, maybe it's because,
   .0> after reading various other subjects within this file I have realized
   .0> just how caring and supportive everyone is.
 
Isn't it wonderful!?!  When I was visiting my family 2 weekends ago, I
read something out of my mom's library that made me think of =wn=ers... 
It went something like "The ability to extend your feelings, 
emotions, and love for others beyond your immediate family is one
of the best predictors of happiness, health, and long life."

Marilyn Irlbacher said it well in .10 - 

    .10>  If ever you need someone to talk with, you have a world in front 
    .10>  of your fingertips.  Use that source as often as you want and you 
    .10>  need it.  

        
One thing that will definitely help you (if you can do this)
as you work on putting the pieces of your life back together  : 

Try to get your Recommended Daily Allowance of FUN every day, no matter
what.  Do *something* to get your endorphins kicking, to elevate your
mood.  Make it a habit! Exercise is a reliable way for me to experience this, 
but there are lots others!  Pick an activity that will force your mind
to focus on something else besides your present difficulties for a while.
(Do something radically different! If you were in the greater Boston area, 
 John Heffernan could teach you how to juggle sticks and silicon balls :-)!
 When home in FL as I mentioned earlier, I rode on the back of a Harley 
 Davidson through the orange groves near my home - what a thrill!)

Look for all pleasures, small and large; search for moments of beauty, of
insight, of excitement.

Try to appreciate something you never have before in nature.  
*Really* smell the roses. 

    
Fran, what you said here didn't surprise me in the least...

    .0> I live with my fiancee, but even he doesn't know what I'm going 
    .0> through inside (I'm very good at covering up things)
    
Isn't it strange how much can hidden from those you're closest to?
You wouldn't think it'd be possible... It's good to read that you've
since been able to share with him, and that the experience was a 
beneficial one.


In .15 you said

    .15> p.s if its alright with you I would still like to use this note
    .15> to talk about the difficulties I am facing and the counceling I
    .15> hope to get, it helps to talk to an 'annoymous' audience.
    
It seemed very much like an anonymous audience to me when I first started 
writing here also, and I found great comfort in that.  I don't mean
to scare you off or anything, but the members of the =wn= community really
*exist* !!  They are real, flesh and blood, breathing, responsive, loving,
sensitive, and caring humans.  It's kind of scary to meet them and thus
be forced to acknowledge their humanity, as opposed to conveniently 
thinking of =wn=ers as solely electronic beings (ever see Tron?).

In .22, you asked,

     .22> Why, at only 21, have I had to suffer so much

Because...once you have conquered these difficulties, chances are you will
not experience *anything* again in your lifetime you can not handle.  
That's not to say nothing bad will ever happen again, just because all these
bad things have already happened to you.  But you will *know* how to deal
with the situations, when they arise.  

I mean...
Think about it ... won't menopause just be a breeze in comparison :-) :-)?
Do you think people doing dumb things on the road will really upset you
as much as it might have otherwise? 

Having these hellish events happen to you now could provide you
with an special life perspective.  You just might end out living your
entire adult life in a much happier state than others who have never 
experienced *so much pain*.

    .22> Why can't I cope with all this
    
You seem to be off to such a good start, Fran.  Be strong and let yourself
feel.

    .22> Why-o-why can't I come to terms with all this and live a normal
    .22> life, 

No such thing as a 'normal' life, I've come to believe.  So many people
have big, heavy, "crosses to bear" and major trauma to overcome.  I've 
read that researchers have discovered that the trials of life are far less
important than *how* one deals with them.  

And ya never know when this wretched experience might be a very valuable
one for you to have survived...overcome...been strengthened by. 

Someone you know or love could go through an equally hard time in the 
future... and,  having overcome,  you could 



		 ... take their hand ...


							nancy b.

    I had my second session with the psycho-therapist this morning,
    and we are now starting to tackle my feelings, taking one at a time
    and talking it through.
    As the therapist said, this is now my time for dreams, memories
    and reflections.
    
    Three very important things have been given to me by this therapist,
    the three things that I have desperately needed for the past 4 years
    and never sought. They are TIME, SPACE and PERMISSION.
    
    TIME to talk about my feelings without worring about infringing
    on anyone elses time.
    
    SPACE to just sit and reflect on all my memories without disrupting
    any part of my 'normal' daily routine.
    
    PERMISSION to talk about it all. I don't have to worry about making
    anyone feel uncomfortable when I talk and I don't have to worry
    or feel guilty about upsetting someone else.
    
    With these three, very precious, elements I know I can come through
    this and feel good about myself once more.
    
    The therapist thinks it will take 12 to 18 months to work all of
    this through, and we are going to go through some very intensive
    sessions together.
    Obviously I won't feel this low for all that time and towards the
    end it will get easier.
    She reckons that by the end of it all I will have a totally new
    out look on life and a much more positive attitude about myself,
    and the sad, lonely look in my eyes will be replaced with a sparkle.
    
    This sounds so wonderful, yet 12 months seems so long. However,
    I WILL NOT GIVE UP, I WILL BEAT THIS THING. The light at the end
    of this tunnel will shine brighter everyday.
    
    Thank you all so very very much for you help and support. When I
    needed 'someone' you were all there for me and none of you let me
    down. For that I owe you all so much.
    
    THANK YOU.
    

    
    
    	How you doing, Fran?
    
    
    Anita
    

    Thanks for the interest Anita,
    
    I'm feeling a bit better, I've had my second session with the therapist
    and it was a little draumatic, I felt very tearful afterwards but
    I managed to put it all into perspective.
    
    I still have my bad days, but doesn't everyone! I'm feeling quite
    pleased with myself 'cos I was given some anti-depressents to take
    and I haven't taken one for about 4 days now, whereas at the beginning
    I was taking about 2 a day. Being able to cope with out the pills
    is a big step and I'm so glad I've managed it.
    
    I'm beginning to feel good about things now, I've even started to
    make some wedding arrangements and that's giving me a real buzz.
    
    Geoff (my fiancee) has been marvellous and I've spent a lot of time
    talking with him. I really neglected him at the beginning and I
    never stopped to think how he felt about all this and what effect
    it was having on him. But now we talk about it daily, and he's asked
    me about the things he doesn't understand and we've talked about
    the fears that he's got. If anything, I feel that it has brought
    us closer, and we've proved that we can support and help each other
    when it's really needed the most.
    
    So, as you can see, at the moment I feel good about myself again,
    but there's still a long way to go.
    
    Thank you for caring
    
    Fran.

    Good to   hear   that  you're  doing  better.  One  warning  about
    anti-depressants:  They're long acting drugs, which take about two
    weeks  before  showing  any  effect,  and  it takes a long time to
    excrete  them.  This  means  that you shouldn't change your dosage
    based on how you feel that day, as it will take a long time to see
    the  effect,  and if you need the drug, it will take a while until
    you can build your blood levels back up.

--David

    I am going to contradict David.  (Good grief, I'm getting bold.)
    
    For many years I have had a male friend who has been on and off
    anti-depressants.  The medication he was/is on acts quickly - within
    an hour - and he has been told specifically to take it only when
    particular symptoms appear.
    
    Make sure you understand the directions for taking your medication
    *as given by your therapist/prescriber*.
    
    Glad to hear that things are looking up for you.
    
    Alison ( usually on SMVDV1) 

    I guess it depend upon the type of anti-depressants one is
    talking about.
    
    David is correct if he is referring to the "tri-cyclic" types:
    Elavil (amytryptaline), Tofranil (imipramine), desipramine,
    Doxepin.                                                     
    
    Very often, with clinical Depression, the patient suffers from
    lack of appetite and sleep disorders, as well as the depression
    itself.
    
    When a patient first starts these medications, he/she may start
    sleeping "normally and regain appetite immediately.
    
    However, it may take up to a couple of weeks before the medication
    begins working on the "depression" part of the Depression.
    
    And there's no guarantee that a particular tri-cyclic will ease
    the depression of a particular patient. 
    
    Some patients have to be given a few different ones, before they
    get one that works.             
    
      Alan
    
    

    I take Elavil and agree with Alan, this is not a medicine that you
    take off and on. I take it for help with migrains and it's a lower
    dose than for an antidepressant but works the same way. The doctor
    told me I'd take these for most of the rest of my life and that the
    effect is only with build up of the medicine in your system. It
    doesn't work as a one shot deal. Oh well, it's got less side effect
    than Beta blockers. Good luck with your battle aganist depression, I
    understand what it feels like. I've been there. liesl

    Some drugs given for depression are not tricyclic; rather, they're
    meant to reduce secondary symptoms such as anxiety and insomnia so
    you can stay in good health while you work on your therapy.  Those
    drugs are more like tranquilizers (though I don't think they're in
    the same medical category as tranquilizers) and aren't meant to be
    taken regularly or for a long period of time.  
    
    The important thing is to ask your doctor what you're taking and
    why, and understand the dosage and requirements.
    
    --bonnie

    I started reading this note today and have been greatly touched
    by the discussion, indeed, for Fran, and because I myself felt something
    like this, when my father and everyone on that side of the family
    died. I did not even try to find help at the time - and reading
    these responses i wish I had... My dad died a year ago in a totally
    unexpected heart attach, at 50. We later found out he knew all about
    it and I just can't forgive him for not letting us know he was
    ill - there's so many things I would have wanted to shar with him.
    
    Lfe's a bitch. It took me a long time before I could even cry. Fran,,
    I admire you for expressing your feeling this way.
    
    And...my real reason for writing - how are you doing, Fran?? I hope you
    are feeling better.
    
    Ann
    (sorry for writing on this account my system is down for backups)
                               

    
    Ann,
    
    I'm sorry for not responding to you earlier but I haven't been into
    notes for a while.
    I would like to have responded via all-in-1 but your name was not
    on here, so I hope you read this.
    
    I understand what you are going through and there really isn't anything
    I can say that will ease your pain - I wish there was.
    
    If you feel that you need help then please seek it, it is never
    too late. It took me 4 years, and I wish I had had the courage to
    face upto it sooner, maybe then I would not be in the state I am
    in now.
    
    Talking is the best thing you can do, be it a friend, a member of
    the family or a therapist. But it must be someone you feel comfortable
    with, someone you can talk to without feeling awkward or worrying
    about upsetting them.
    
    For me I had to chose someone who was detached from it, as I did
    not feel it fair to upset my family or make my friends feel
    uncomfortable.
    
    My feeling vary from those of grief and loneliness to those of complete
    anger and guilt. Grief is made up of many different emotions and
    each one is as painful as the next.
    
    For me, the anger and guilt are the worse; the anger at my Dad for
    leaving us the way he did and then the complete guilt for feeling
    so angry at him.
    In general, the feelings are so mixed up, and it is only since seeing
    the therapist I have been able to cope with them. I won't say it
    makes them go away, because it doesn't, but it does help put them
    in perspective and make me understand them better, it has also shown
    me that these feelings are not wrong, thet are normal and everyone
    goes through it.
    
    I wish I could reach out to you and make it all better, there is
    so much I could talk to you about and many ways I want to help.
    PLEASE, if you want to talk contact me, either via all-in-1 or on
    the phone, I am more that willing to listen.
    
    My heart goes out to you, and I wish all the best, just remember
    IT IS NEVER TOO LATE TO SEEK HELP.
    
    Keep Talking,
    
    Francesca Holloway (Queens House, Reading UK)