Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    see also
    
    AITG::Catholic-Theology note 313
    IOSG::Christian  note 198
    
    Anti abortion organizational notes both started by Mike Wannamacher
    
    

    Thanks, Bonnie... 

    
    
    
    
                     Operation Rescue
                     P.O. Box 1300
                     Arlington, Ma. 02174
                     (508) 994-8380
    
    
    

    	The action taken by the Pro-Choice side of this coin is doing
    a great deal of damage to their own cause. When 300 pro-choice
    partisans show up at a clinic on Saturday morning and 10 of the
    Pro-Life are there, they cause the women who are going through the
    abortion more grief than the Pro-Lifers. Some of the reports I've
    heard is that women are reconsidering because the Pro-Choicers gather
    around and make a big deal out of something they didn't want anyone
    to know about. I've heard that as many as 25% are driving away when
    they see the large Pro-Choice crowds.
    	The best action may be less action at the clinics and more at
    the legislature. I will not do anything illegal or criminal, nor
    will I support it. I will try to convince women to find an alternative
    to abortion. I will support birth control education and funding.
    I will not support abortioin as a method of that birth control.
    
    	We'll win. We don't need rallies and shouting and rah-rah. We
    will quietly apply pressure (as I have to 6 legislators in my state
    and fed.) and limit abortion. 
    
    Ken

    Ken,
    
    I rather suspect, from my interest in rumor-propagation and urban
    legends, that:
    
    > Some of the reports I've
    > heard is that women are reconsidering because the Pro-Choicers gather
    > around and make a big deal out of something they didn't want anyone
    > to know about. I've heard that as many as 25% are driving away when
    > they see the large Pro-Choice crowds.
    
    bears little or no resemblance to reality. (Pause for thought.)
    Unless these women are assuming the crowd is there to DISsuade them.
    In that case (as clinics have reported) they go home and reschedule.
    (This is not to impune your sources; it is just to say it *sounds*
    like a rumor.)
    
    Now, your statement:
    
    > We
    > will quietly apply pressure (as I have to 6 legislators in my state
    > and fed.) and limit abortion. 
    
    implies extortion.  This is a crime.  Since you didn't use extortion
    on anyone, and didn't mean to imply you had, I would recommend you
    use another term -- or the next flying rumor will be about that!
    
							Ann B.

    RE: 9

    >> We
    >> will quietly apply pressure (as I have to 6 legislators in my state
    >> and fed.) and limit abortion. 
    >
    >implies extortion.  This is a crime.  Since you didn't use extortion
    >on anyone, and didn't mean to imply you had, I would recommend you
    >use another term -- or the next flying rumor will be about that!
 
    I grew up believing that if you don't like the laws in this country, you
    vote to change them. Unfortunately, it seems that our elected officials
    often think it is their job to "lead" rather than "represent", and
    sometimes you've got to pressure these people into doing what the
    voters want (i.e., the job that the tax payers are paying for). The
    best way that I know to apply pressure to an elected official is to let
    that official know that you won't vote to reelect him/her unless he/she
    represents your views. And the only way that you can make sure that these
    elected officials know what views you want them to represent you with once
    they are in office is to write letters and make phone calls to their
    office. And while this should sway someone that might forget he/she was
    elected to REPRESENT his/her constituency, I can't see how you can make
    the correlation with extortion. It is democracy in action.

    On the original topic, what can we as individuals do, short of gaining
    affiliation with a group which has a reputation for being a bit radical,
    to further the pro-life cause? Are there any low key organizations that
    stress teaching that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure?
    I have a philosophical background that teaches that you win people over
    to your way of thinking by the example you set, not by preaching at or
    intimidating, and it distresses me to see that the radicals of the
    pro-life movement are the perceived as the stereotypical pro-life
    supporter. I believe that pro-life supporters are the silent majority,
    but I think that the time has come that if I continue to remain silent,
    I will really be a part of the problem. What avenues can I use to help the
    cause other than the ballot box? Where can I send $ or donate my time?
    I'm really at a loss of ideas.

    Deb

    P.S. RE: .6 

    I think that tar and feathers is too good for the governor, but I don't
    want to get started on that one.

    
                          <** Moderator Response **>

    I would ask our pro-choice members (particularly) to respect the
    purpose of this string and take any commentary and argument to 183.*
    
    If we keep the two "Taking Action" strings dedicated to planning,
    information-sharing, and a limited amount of *intra*-group discussion,
    life will be a great deal easier for everyone (including the mods :-)
    
    Thank you.
    
    						=maggie

    I think Deb (.10) has the right idea in the title of her note.
    One course of action is to not only support politicians who are
    supportive of the pro-life position, but those who support the
    idea of public sex education and easily-available contraceptives.
    
    The best method to fight abortion is to help towards making it
    an unnecessary alternative.
    
    --- jerry

    Agreed, Jerry.  That's an action both sides can support.
    I'd add better adoption laws to your list.
    
    Marge

    I Listeded to C Everett Coop on 20/20 Friday. Dr Coop says that
    most anti-choice politicians are also anti-contraceptive. Has it
    been difficult to find politicians who believe in teaching preg-
    nancy prevention in the schools and free birth control pills who
    is also anti-abortion? Who are these politicians in Mass?
    
    Respectfully,
    Kate
    

    
    
    RE: .14
    
      The term is Pro-Life, not anti-choice or anti-abortion. I don't
    call Pro-Choice advocates Pro-Death or Anti-Life. Calling groups
    or people other than what they wish to be called only adds to the
    emotionalism/bad feelings seemingly inherent in this issue. 

Does anybody know of any politations that are in favor of letting minors
    get birth control WITHOUT parental consent? In favor of putting
    condom machines in schools? Making sure children can get correct
    information on sex in schools and not rely on the streets?
    
    This is for Mass.

    
                            <** Moderator Plea **>

    Please, folks, the two "Taking Action for ..." notes are meant to be
    used for planning by the respective groups, not for a continuation of
    argument.  Argument goes in 183.*   Further misplaced expressions of
    argument in this or the pro-choice planning string will be summarily
    set hidden or deleted by the first moderator seeing them.
    
    If you are pro-choice and are writing in this, the pro-life string,
    please behave as a courteous guest and use the term "pro-life">: nobody
    will really suppose that you're betraying your principles or selling
    out.  Anyone who feels unable to be courteous to such a small degree is
    probably too angry to be writing in this string anyway.
    
    Thank you.
    
    						=maggie

    	I'm back after a day in the mountains and a missed opportunity
    to attend the =wn= party again, this time due to "inventory" at
    Shaw's. (wife is ass't mgr and didn't get home until 9)
    
    	As to my "pressure". It was not an illegal act anymore than
    targeting pro-life politicians by pro-choice groups and applying
    "pressure". 
    
    	I also had a nose to nose with a priest about abortion and birth
    control and told him that the Church can't have both. It's 1990
    and birth control must be given as an alternative to unwanted and
    unplanned children. Catholics are educated and do not fear the Church
    as they once did. He did agree that something has to be done. The
    Church is one place that action can be taken and the bishops etc.
    must be made to recognize that birth control denies life to start, 
    it does not destroy life.
    
    	Education of children must be start in the schools at a young
    age and I'll be working toward sex education in elementary, Jr.
    High, and High School. It should be a part of the Health cirriculum.
    
    	Each of us who support the Pro-Life movement must become involved
    in the politics of our towns and states. Other groups can try to
    elect their officials, I am giving serious thought to running for
    elective office myself. 
    
    Ken 

    You know Ken, I think sometimes the thing that saddens me about
    pro-choice and pro-life stuff is when I hear people say things like
    what you just said, I want to jump on the bandwagon and support
    you.
    
    It is Soooooo true that if there was no crime in sex that forced young
    people to be secretive and careless, and no stigma to unwed motherhood
    that created wells of shame and humiliation in the depths of young
    women, and some alternate adoption technique that helped women to have
    some part in a child's future if they needed to... and above all,
    better more easily accessible, HIGHLY RECOMMENDED AND CHURCH SUPPORTED
    birth control, then most abortions would never need to happen.
    
    I wish I could imagine an American society in which every baby was
    welcolmed AND EACH AND EVERY PREGNANT WOMAN WAS CELEBRATED AND
    NURTURED. Where pregnant high school seniors were not hissed and
    booed, and kept from their own graduation ceremonies, and where
    programs were set up to provide prenatal care and clothing AND
    ESPECIALLY a celebration of the woman's biological miracle. Not
    to mention transitional assistance for re-entering life's pathways
    after the birthing process.
    
    If even the beginnings of such a program were to come about,
    pro-choice as I am, I would be entirely tempted to support it.
    So, if it exists, and I haven't heard about it, somebody let me
    know.                      
    
    Are there any programs where pro-choice and pro-life people have
    come together?
     

    >....... I'll be working toward sex education in elementary, Jr.
    >High, and High School. It should be a part of the Health cirriculum.

    Ken,

    care to elaborate on what you are doing? How did you get involved? What
    office/official/channels did you go through so that you could get
    involved? I guess I'm looking for suggestions on how one would get
    started.

    Deb

    re: Deb
    
    	I'm trying to take active roles with the school board and with
    the town council. I've found that the Jr. High DOES incorporate
    sex education in its health programs. They explain what happens,
    where it happens, and most important HOW it happens and WHAT can
    prevent it from happening. The "it" being pregnancy. There is some
    education in the HS but very little in the elementary schools.
    
    	If you pursue the issue, be sure to be ready to offer alternatives
    to those who find horror in telling children about their sexuality.
    Don't get fired up, but be prepared for unenlightened minds that
    may still be in the dark ages. Don't preach!!!! Explain. You won't
    need to convince supporters, you can't convince rivals, you can
    convince the fence sitters. Put volunteers together to teach if
    necessary, then there no costs associated.
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    Ken

    Several weeks ago, I believe it was 60 minutes I was watching, and
    they showed a segment on a New York High School Sex Ed. teacher
    who was a "template" for many other area programs.  Her course talked
    about the reality of sex, why it's okay not to have it, how to take
    responsibility.  It was *great* to see her interacting with the
    high schoolers in the classroom - she was so dynamic - and she taught
    them to assess their OWN values, and treat themselves, and their
    beliefs with RESPECT.  They went through the objectives of her course,
    and many of the topics she covered.  They could probably send a 
    transcript to those who request it...

    -Jody

    	While on Rte. 3 yeaterday, I saw a pro-life bumper sticker
    affiliated with a (non-Catholic) church. I couldn't read the church
    name but the bumper sticker said alot:
    
    "A Fine lot we humans are. We brake for animals, protect the seals
       and dolphins, save the whales, and kill or own unborn"
       
    I'd like to get one of these if anyone knows where they can be
    purchased.
    
    Ken

    I also saw the 60 Minutes spot. It was real good. What I found
    especially interesting about it was that the class was mixed (i.e.,
    both females and males). I agree it would be great if all jr high/high
    school students could take it, but it seems like that class works
    because of the teacher and I suspect that it would be really heard
    to find many like her (especially in the less populated, less urban
    areas), willing to talk honestly, sincerly and unself-consiously about
    anything the kids want to talk about.
    
    Deb

    Sex education needs to be provided *before* junior high, and it seems
    to me that most people are unwilling for the full facts to be given in
    school at such a young age.  I started having regular periods in the 5th
    grade -- the month before I was 10 -- and note 392.21 refers to an
    11-year-old girl who became pregnant.  

    I *know* this is not the same thing, but it is similar in many ways
    (i.e. teach them earlier about....) - in the case of my hometown,
    they had been against doing any education on drinking or drugs,
    and several parents got together and proposed a town-wide mailing
    to all homes in town with children in the school system.  It
    recommended the parents discuss the pamphlet (primarily about alcohol)
    with their children, and sometimes a "prop" like this does make
    it easier to handle the topic .... 
    
    The result?  They wrote it, fought for it with various officials, but
    eventually had it approved by the school committee and some town
    officials, had it typeset, and mailed it out.  I am sure it would be
    even more difficult to get sex education out to the young folks - but
    if the movement has enough people behind it, the people who run the
    town (or the school committee if it would be a sex-ed course) - will
    consider where their next re-election or re-appointment will be coming
    from, and perhaps compromise with a solution that all can accept...
    
    The need for education is vast, and the need for consideration is
    great.  Young people need to understand it is *their* life, *their*
    body, *their* decision, and I believe that if they are given the
    information, they may well decide NOT to have sex.  Not because
    it is forbidden, but because they do not wish to yet...
    
    And if they should decide to have sex, let them do it carefully
    and with caring, and maybe even with their parents' trust and
    knowledge (yes, I did....although I was 18).  
    
    -Jody
     
    
    -Jody
    

    What about free contraceptives? How about the kids (and they are
    only kids who figure "It can't happen to me". Are there any candidates
    who believe in free contraceptives to prevent pregnancy? Education
    is education the pill still cost $15.00 per month.
    
    Kate
                                 

    There are places, like a clinic whose name I can't exactly remember
    on The Fenway in Boston, that give out free contraceptives.  There
    are some inner-city high schools I've heard of (in Chicago?  D.C.?)
    that offer free condoms in the nurse's office if anyone asks.  There
    are colleges that are putting condom dispensers in the dorms.
    
    I think the main problem with getting free contraceptives to young
    people (i.e. 10-15 or so...) - is that for them to have sex it's
    statutory rape in some (many?  all?) states, and it seems to condone it
    to offer it....and this compounds the fact that lots of people just
    don't want to BELIEVE it happens so young.  By allowing free
    contraceptives they are acknowledging that younger people are having
    sex, and maybe they feel that by withholding information and
    contraceptives, the problem will go away, and the younger people will
    not have sex. It is very difficult for some people to believe that
    others don't hold the same morals as they, and it is often these same
    people who think that "if they don't want to wait, let 'em suffer the
    consequences" (perhaps thinking it is some sort of just punishment). I
    have heard my grandfather say the same. 

    -Jody
    

    A question on the term statutory rape.  I know it applies when a person
    who is legally "adult" has sex with a person legally a "minor."  Does
    it also apply to minor/minor relations?
    
    thanks,
    Marge

RE: .32 (Marge on Statutory rape)

    I think  the  answer  is more complex than Ann's answer allows. It
    used to be (in NY, and I think other states) that sex with a minor
    female  was  statutory  rape,  but  sex  with  a  minor  male  was
    contributing  to  the  delinquincy of a minor. If both people were
    minors it was a less serious crime. The difference in treatment of
    boys and girls was changed when the courts started to rule that it
    was  unconstitutional  to have such varying penalties for the same
    crime.  (The rulings came under the equal protection clause.)

    In any  case,  this  is  a  matter  of state law, and used to vary
    greatly  by  state. I have no reason to believe that it's any more
    uniform now.

--David

    re .36
    
    Ken, 
    
    	You've made your choice on how to approach the situation, and
    you've decided to accept the risk that you'll spend time in jail.
    
    	There are others of us who are equally dedicated to the lives of
    unborn human lives who are not willing to accept that risk for various,
    valid, reasons.  There are others of us who do not believe that your
    method is the most effective.  I hope you're not suggesting that our
    efforts are less worthwhile than are yours.  It takes a lot of letter
    writing and political arm-twisting and sign-carrying and legislation
    drafting, etc. to be effective.  
    
    peace,
    Marge

    Let's see if I can get this right . . . (without dropping into 'set
    hidden').
    
    Pro-life Action:
    
    If it is really you-know-what-but-we-won't-name-it-here, than a
    proper action is to stand in the door based upon 'higher law'.

    Non-violent direct action, plain and simple and time honored.  That's
    what Operation Rescue does.
    
    The seed of the martyrs is the blood of the church (that will confound
    them moderators!) and the devil knows he shouldn't hurt us but he
    just can't help himself!  So even if we get hurt it aids the cause
    of you-know-who.
    
    So let's discuss the pro's and con's of non-violent direct action.
    
    Be careful now, don't say WHY and don't refer to you-know-who
    (several).
    
    Keep chargin'
    
    Ken Arndt
    
    

    
                          <** Moderator Response **>

    Nice work, Ken.
    
    						=maggie

    Does anyone have any information on  yesterday's "Respect for LIFE"
    3 mile march around Boston Common yesterday? How many showed up, how much
    $ did they raise, etc. I didn't find out about it until yesterday
    afternoon, and I saw nothing about it on the evening news.
    
    Deb

    I got this information secondhand (at least).  I trust the person I got
    it from, who wishes to remain anonymous, but I don't know anything for
    certain about the originator:
    
    "[ATT is alleged to be taking calls at this toll-free number about their
    decision to de-fund Planned Parenthood:]
 
	1-800-842-8369
 
    They want to know if you're pro or con, and whether you're an employee,
    shareholder, or customer."