Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    We ran across the same problem. We just addressed the invitations
    to "Mr. & Mrs. John Smith" instead of "The John Smith Family". Most
    of the people were thankful that they could go out for a day withOUT
    the kids. If you get a response back that was addressed to "Mr &
    Mrs Smith" and there are '5' attending, maybe your Maid of Honor
    could give them a call and explain the situation. I think most people
    would understand.
    Beth

    My husband and I did the same thing.  We paid for the entire wedding 
    ourselves and we didn't really want kids there either, aside from his
    10 year old daughter and my 12 year old sister.  
    
    I just addressed the invitation to who was invited.  It was either
    Mr. so and Mrs. so and so or Ms. so and so and guest.  No one
    questioned it except one of my sister-in-laws.  And when she asked,
    I told her the truth.  Our real reason for not wanting kids was
    because the chapel didn't hold that many people and the reception
    area was small.  Kids tend to get itchy and make too much comosion.
    
    Anna
    
    

    When we got married, we had few kids in our families.  Fortunately,
    all were either teenagers or pre-schoolers, so it made it very easy
    to "draw the line" as to who to invite (we invited the few teens,
    but not pre-schoolers).                                   
                                                              
    We had one couple (friends) that we were concerned about since they
    brought their only daughter (about 12 or 13 years old) with them 
    many places.  We specifically addressed the invitation (on both inner 
    and outer envelopes) to the couple (eg., Mary and John Smith).  They 
    returned the response card with "2" written in; we thought we were
    all set.  They showed up with her.  I couldn't believe it.  One couple did
    not show up so there was a seat and dinner for her, but otherwise
    there would not have been.  Whatever made them think she was invited 
    and not the kids of all of our other friends?
                                                 
    My point is...I would make it very clear.  If you don't want to
    print it on the invitation, you could make up separate slips of
    paper or write personal notes to include with the invitations of
    families with kids.               
                                          
    Be prepared for someone not to like it.  When my brother got married,
    my uncle was mad at my mother because his granddaughter wasn't invited
    to the (evening) wedding.  Just remember it's your wedding and don't
    let it bother you.
    
    -Tracy
                               
                                         
    

    
    Make it very clear, I just attended a wedding where there were 14 extra
    people, all uninvited children. Fortunately the hotel offered to cook
    hamburgers for the kids, but there were still only 100 seats for 114
    people. 

	My feelings on children aside...

	When my sister got married last October, my parents and my sister 
decided there would be *no* children.  My sister handled her friends, my
father handled my parents friends, and, while a few people were bent out of
shape, most accepted it gracefully.

	Money was not so much an issue (since my father put up all the out-of-
town guests in a local hotel, children and all) as the fact that it was an
evening wedding, and the feeling that children simply do not belong at some
occaisions.

	Make it clear.  And sit hard on those who don't take a hint well.  If
you think you're going to have a "misunderstanding", call the people and 
explain.  You are not obligated to invite the children.

							--Doug

    I just received a wedding invitation that included a separate,
    engraved card that said simply "No Children Please".

    We had the same problem.  No matter what you do, a few people will show
    up with unexpected children that they did not put on the response card
    (so you, or your maid of honor, could not call them and discreetly
    explain) - if you are lucky, about the same number as people who do not
    show up for one reason or another.  Only three children turned up at
    our reception, but four people had the flu, so there was enough food.
    You would think that most people would understand, but there are always
    a few...  Plus some people whose babysitting arrangements fall through
    at the last minute.  I think the babysitting idea might work out OK
    (though that will cost you money, and you'll need to hire a separate
    room for it and a bunch of sitters), if you are inviting a lot of
    people with small children.
    
    
    /Charlotte
    
    We didn't really want everyone's children for several reasons: we were
    paying for it and wanted to invite as many of our (adult) friends as we
    could feasibly do given our budget constraints, and most of our friends
    are serious folk dancers (dancing with toddlers running around is real
    tough, unless the toddlers are used to adult dancers or all the dancing
    at the reception is geared towards kids - we had hired a very good
    folk dance band).

    
    Some parents will always assume (tut tut) that an invitation addressed
    to them as a couple automatically embraces their delightful offspring.
    
    My book on etiquette suggests sending *individual* invitations -
    ie no "Mr & Mrs Smith" but one to John Smith and another to Jane
    Smith. You might include a card saying "No Children Please", or
    "No provision is made for children..."  or even "due to the presence
    of intoxicating beverages nobody under the legal drinking age will
    be admitted. To facillitate this and avoid undue formalities please
    bring this card with you and give it to the ushers as proof of
    identity"
    
    /. Ian .\
    
    
    

    Hurrah for no children, call me selfish but my wedding day was to
    be for the bride and groom not some darling like tike that steal
    the show.  I have 19 nephews and neices and my mother did not invite
    a single one to the reception.  She was very formal abou the
    invitations being invited to Mr. & Mrs.  When a response was received
    (as several were) noting additional guests, she promptly and politely
    called the dopes and expressed her delight that they could come
    and offered babysitting for their children.  (One couple was planning
    to bring their In-Laws who were visiting, can you believe the nerve
    of some people).  One couple did show up at the reception with their
    3 month old baby.  She said that the chilod was nursing and could
    not be left at home.  Mother sympathized with her situation and
    indicated that the "babysitting" facilities were in easy reach.
     The couple left in a huff but my wedding was not disturbed by the
    screams of tired and hungry children.
    
    Weddings are expensive, I had enough trouble cutting down the number
    of friends.  I couldn't justify having somebodies three year old
    when I couldn't have my college roommate.
    
    It is your wedding, good friends understand.  Those that don't may
    not be good friends.  As for relatives, they may get angry but they
    are still related.  Be firm, you'll have a better time in the end.
    
    Kerry.

    My wife and I were married in '77. Our wedding was small and we
    didn't even think to close out the kids. Since my wife checkd out
    the responses to the invitations I don't remember how she handled
    children but we had children at the Church and Reception. Most of
    the adults who had children just didn't bring them, however those
    that did were treated to the dinner with the rest of us and WE ALL
    enjoyed there company. We did have as a Failsafe hired a baby sitter
    for infants and young kiddos for a extra minimal cost. They went
    to there padded room and had a blast after the meal. None were to
    be found for quite a while.
    
    
    My personal opinion the invitation speaks for itself and if the
    parents bring there offspring so be it. All the guests are there
    to enjoy the occasion and the Newly Married Couple. Children thoroughly
    enjoy the music and the traditions even though they may not understand.
    Its a GRAND TIME FOR ALL....
    
    Mike Turro
    
    ps The last wedding we went to we did leave our children at home
    as we were able to get a baby sitter. If no baby sitter is available
    and a ? may appear. We will call the future bride/groom or part
    of the wedding party for details. If no problem then they come along..
    With one exception, infants should be left behind however...
    
    
    

    I tend to agree with the previous replies that suggest you add a
    note or a seperate card specificially saying "no children".  Even
    addressing the envelope MR. & MRS. so and so isn't enough.  Some
    people drag their kids everywhere they go, invited or not.  I always
    assume when I get an invite, unless it says "and family", that kids
    aren't invited but not everyone does.  My sister has 4 kids (animals)
    she takes eveywhere with her (No one else will watch them).
    

    I think it's VERY TACKY for a couple whose invitaion is addressed
    to "Mr and Mrs. So-and-So" (or Mr. So-and-So and Ms. Such-and-Such :-)
    to automatically ASSUME that their brats are invited too.
    
    Maybe my mother raised me right in these matters, though.
    
    I would be royally *p**ed* if I addressed the invitation to a couple
    and they showed up with a bunch of little kids as well.
    
    I also think it's tacky to put "no children please" on the wedding
    invitation, but since it seems that there's lots of tacky people out
    there who bring uninvited guests along to a formal party, the "inviters"
    have to resort to being equally tacky to counter them.
    
    "Adults only" doesn't sound quite as tacky to me.
    

    
    sounds like we all really love children out there...
    
    no wonder they pay us back with juvenile delinquency...

    One can love children and not want to invite them to their wedding.
                                                                       
    I love my two kids, but I would never just show up with them--or any
    other uninvited guest--to a formal event, or any other event they're
    not invited to.  (We recently received an invitation addressed to
    the "Warrens," so we called to see if that included the kids or not.)
    I don't think it shows much respect to your kid to act as those
    he/she does not count as an additional person.
    
    This isn't to say kids never belong at weddings.  But the people
    who are getting married and hosting the reception get to decide
    what kind of event it will be and who will be invited.
                         
    I agree it should be enough for the base noter to indicate in her
    invitations who _is_ invited without saying specifically who _isn't_
    invited.  Unfortunately, I don't think it is.
    
    -Tracy
    
    

    I DO love children and I imagine some others that have written in
    this note do also but...I was at a wedding once that children attended.
    They ran all over the place knocking things over, ripped the brides
    gown more than once stepping on it while she danced, cried alot
    because they were bored or tired (they can only take so much of what 
    we adults call fun).  There are just certain places where children
    are not appropriate (wedding, bars, etc.).
    

    Re .15: I don't equate electing to have an adults-only social gathering
    with disliking children. And somehow I doubt that not being invited to 
    a parent's friend's wedding contributes to very much delinquency. In
    fact, if there aren't going to be provisions for child care at the
    social event, it's much more fair to the kids (as well as the adults)
    to leave them home.
    
    Re the topic:
    People who bring uninvited guests (child, adult, or pet) to social
    gatherings can be a sore trial indeed. It's easy to say, "Turn them
    away," but that can cost a friendship. It seems more reasonable to do
    the best you can ahead of time to indicate who's invited and what is
    expected, but if that fails and Aunt Martha shows up at the door with
    her five kids and three Dobermans, what do you do? Turn her down flat?
    Greet her with obvious surprise and discomfort, such that she will
    spend the rest of the occasion very much aware of how much trouble she
    caused? Go to great lengths to make her and her troupe comfortable,
    thereby being a gracious host but also taking the risk of encouraging
    this sort of behavior in future?
    
    And they say foreign policy is hard...
    
    -b

    You just can't (sad to say) make any assumptions about what other
    people (your relatives, for example) will realize is correct or
    "brainless" behavior.  You would think that most people would realize
    that a catered sit-down reception at a wedding is not something you
    should turn up at with uninvited/unexpected extra guests, no matter
    what their ages.  In our case, with catered glatt kosher food, there
    would not have been any way for the caterer to magically get additional
    food, even hamburgers for kids - it all had to be brought in.
    
    But you never know!
    
    /Charlotte

    I'm usually not one for quick sarcastic comments, but I almost
    agree with Bob Holt... this attitude does a lot for family unity.
    I can't imagine getting in such a huff, look at these replys, calling
    people dopes, their family brats..etc.
    
    Granted children can be unruley, I liked the idea of offering a
    sitter at the reception (and church). But to purposley exclude peoples
    family? I wonder if the priest will loose the phrase about God blessing
    you with children. If you are so blessed just don't bring them to
    public functions. Geesh this attitude throws the family unit down
    the toilet.
    
    I remember fondly of weddings I attended as a child, a chance to
    meet distant relatives etc. 
    
    If parents choose to leave the litle ones at home it should be their
    choice. They know how their kids act or behave in public. They can
    also judge the formality of the situation.

    Gail

    
    To everyone who has responded so far - thanks!  It's nice to get
    a little support in this tricky issue.
    
    Re:  .15 and .20:
    
    We are not deliberately trying to break up any family relationships
    or unity.  The simple fact of the matter is we have just so much money
    to spend.  We have two choices.  We can invite family only and include 
    all of their children and not include our friends who we have known
    just about as long as our family.  The second option is what we've
    chosen to do, and that is invite adults only.  This is not an easy
    decision and it's not something we're taking lightly.  We realize
    that children are an integral part of the family unit and we hope
    to have children after we're married.  However, having children
    does not mean that you have to take them to each event the parents
    are invited to.  The few people we've talked to about this were
    almost visibly relieved that they'd have a "day off" from the kids.
    As much as these parents love their children, they still look forward
    to a day where they can relax and kick back without the kids.
    
    I imagine we'll ruffle someone's feathers with the fact that we're
    not inviting children.  We're looking for the most tactful way to
    put this.  It comes down to this, we've had to make decisions. 
    The whole thing is that we're inviting all our family, we haven't
    seen some of our cousins for years and years.  These cousins have
    kids we've never seen.  I'm dying to see my cousins, but if I'm
    faced with the choice (which I am) of inviting my cousins kids who
    don't even know me, or inviting our close friends who have gone
    through the engagement and wedding planning process with us, I'd
    much rather have my friends there to share the day with us.
    
    If this seems crass to some people, so be it.  It's very easy to
    make judgement calls when you're not involved in the situation.
    
    Cherie

    
    Well, I certainly learnt something about American culture after
    reading this note!!!!
    I am from the Caribbean, and it is ACCEPTED that a family takes
    the kids along at weddings or any such celebrations. If there's
    not enough chairs, no problem, they sit on someone's lap. If
    there's not enough food, no problem, Mom and Dad shares theirs with
    the kids, and anyway, close family always eat last (i.e mother,
    father, sisters, brothers, good friends ), so if anyone has to do
    without, it will be them.
    All of the weddings that I have gone to  so far in
    this country have been people from the Caribbean, but I am invited
    to one next month, and of course, planned to take my kids. Last
    night I re-read the invitation, and sure enough, there was no
    "and family". I certainly would have been embarrassed.
    
    Well, I guess I will not be going. I can't imagine a wedding without
    kids running around and making a general nuisance of themselves
    as usual.
    
    Desryn.
    
    

    Desryn,

You may want to double-check with the inviters. Did they know you had a family?
(I know, this contradicts lots of notes in this string, but as a socially inept
person, I _always_ make things explicit).
    Mez

    ...well if you go, you won't have to imagine!  Don't you ever go
    to dinner alone with your spouse/SO without kids?  It doesn't mean
    you don't love or ever want to go anywhere with them.  It means
    this particular event is just for you, not the kids.  You aren't
    automatically going to be included in all the invitations they receive
    either!
    
    Cherie, you do not have to justify your not inviting kids.  It's
    your wedding and it should be the type of occasion (formal or informal,
    small or large, adults only or kids too...) that you and your fiance
    decide on (for _whatever_ reasons).  It always amazes me when
    people are so adamant about the way someone else should run their
    weddings (lives, etc.).                                  
                                                             
    Back to original topic (how to make it clear to guests, not _whether_
    to invite kids)...
    
    The only potential problem with a "No children please" or "Only
    adults please" card is where to draw the line.  Is a 19-year-old
    invited?  If you're going to invite teens, I'd use the "no children
    please."  If not, I'd use the "adults only."  For ex., a 16-year-old
    (who _certainly_ doesn't feel she's a child) but be insulted for
    being excluded with the children.                      
    
    With these borderline cases, you may also want to include a note.
    that makes it clear whether they're invited.  eg., "We look forward
    to seeing Sara..."  or "Please explain to Bobby that because of
    our limited budget, we can only invite those 18 and up.  We look
    forward to seeing him soon, though..."
    
    Good luck,
    
    -Tracy
          
                                                             
    

    Re .23:
    
        By all means, if you're not 100% sure, call and ask!                 
    

    RE: .24
    
    Simple way to solve this problem (ie are 16 year olds invited), is to
    include their name on the inside envelope or send them their own
    invitation.
    
    RE: .0 
    
    I support your wish to invite adults only - it is your wedding!  Have a
    wonderful time.  
    
    Suzanne

    
    re .24
    
    Tracy,
    
    You seem to be saying that I am upset because my kids are not invited.
    You have misinterpreted my note. I fully support the bride and groom
    to do what they want with their wedding. I was simply pointing out
    the different in cultures. I DID NOT KNOW repeat DID NOT KNOW that
    here, there are adults only weddings. repeat DID NOT KNOW.
    As i said, I will certainly NOT take my kids if I decide to go,
    but in the same way that I appreciate the American culture , I hope
    that others will appreciate mine although  they do not have to
    understand or agree with it.
    Isn't this what Valuing Differences is all about?????????????      
    
    As I said earlier, I was not criticizing the Bride for not inviting
    kids, I merely remarked on the difference in cultures. There ARE
    other cultures outside of the United States of AMerica.
    
    Desryn.
    

    Desryn,
    
    I'm sorry if it sounded like I was criticizing you.  That wasn't
    my intention!  I do hope, though, that you won't take it as affront
    and/or stay away from that wedding just because your kids aren't
    invited.
                 
    My comment that Cherie doesn't have to defend her decision was not
    directed at you at all.  It was a general comment that we all should
    be helping her address the question she had, not questioning her
    decision (which apparently was a difficult one, as she explained).
    Weddings bring out very strong feelings and opinions in people,
    don't they?  
                 
    Your note brings out an excellent point about cultural differences.
    The cross-section of cultures in America does make it more important
    to make any possibly ambiguous points very clear.
                 
    -Tracy
    

I can see how traditional wedding would be problematic for children.
I wonder if folks have thought of creative ways to wed so that both
children and adults can participate?

john

                                           
        I vote for inserting a card reading "No children please" or
    "No small children please".  It seems to be the most effective way
    of getting the message across without feeling so uncomfortable,
    and you won't have to explain yourself.  (Unless they call you for
    an explanation).           
    
    Concerning the other point of discussion....
        I went to my brothers wedding and someone had a baby
    that cried and cried all through the ceremony.  I was surprised
    they did not get up and leave so others could enjoy it.  I got married
    almost a year ago and had a great fear that the same thing would
    happen at my wedding.  It didn't, and everything went fine.  I didn't
    request that people do not bring their children, and hoped that
    things would turn out well.                 
        
    Adding still more...
         I was surprised at the number of people that said they were
    not coming that did and the number of people that said they
    were coming and did not.  They even brought distant friends with the
    idea that it's a "block party".  I was lucky because it seemed to
    even out number wise, and there was plenty of food for everyone.
    (I had a buffet luckily!)  Anyway, as already said, it's your day
    so do what you would like!!  You will be the center of attention!
    (Doesn't that make you nervous?  I did me!)
        

    THIS MAY BE LONG..I just went through something similar about a month 
    ago.
    
    My sister-in-law got married, during the whole entire time of the
    planning, nothing was ever mentioned over children coming or not
    coming.  We were told by my husbands mother she expected to see
    Katie (my almost 2yr old) at the church for the wedding and the
    picture taking, which I had a hard time with because, a. it was
    a catholic ceremony, which leads to b. how does a kid that young
    possibly stay quiet during the ceremony.   So the plan was
    that yes Katie would come, and then also come to the reception for
    a short time, my mother was going to be there and wasn't planning
    on staying long so she would take her when she left.  Well, come
    to find out, (5 days before the wedding) that the bride "didn't
    know K was coming,and noone else would be bringing their kids".
    I never kept my plans a secret, my question was:  great, why wasn't
    I told the "no children wish".  So meanwhile, I'm trying to figure
    out what I will do with Katie after the service,  I live 35 miles
    from the church and it is even further for the reception.  Luckily
    my grandmother offered to watch her (she lives 15 miles closer in).
     
    So my day consisted of running out to acton for the wedding running
    back in the other direction for the babysitting and then running
    back out the otherway to the reception.  And then....getting b***
    at for being late for pictures.   BOY WAS THIS ENJOYABLE.  Maybe
    I didn't have a right to be upset over the wishes of the Bride and
    Groom but it sure made life hard for us.  It was a very long day,
    the wedding started at 2:15 and we didn't get home until 2:00 am.
     
                                                     

    	I have to say NEVER print "No Small Children" because there
    are parents who think that their kid is a "big" boy or girl at 2
    years old.
    
    	I saw what I thought was the best printed adults only comment
    on a recent invitation that we recieved.
    
    	"Limited Seating, Sorry, NO CHILDREN PLEASE, NO EXCEPTIONS"
    
    	It's your wedding. You're paying. It's your day. Don't let anyone
    spoil it for you. Anyone who doesn't get the message if written
    as above deserves to be turned away by the ushers. That's their
    job at weddings. True friends will understand. It's not your
    responsibility to provide daycare. For relatives coming from afar
    you may want to round up some responsible teenagers to help out
    for a fee (paid by parents) and ease the problem.
    
    	I have three kids and they never are taken anywhere that an
    invitation states just my wife and myself.
    
    Good Luck and Best Wishes for the wedding and your future.
    
    Ken

    
    The minute I started planning my wedding, I made it
    clear through word of mouth that NO children would
    be at our wedding. Thank god my friends and relatives
    LOVE the idea of a day away from the kids.  One 
    exception was my niece, a remarkably well-behaved
    child, who participated as a flower girl.
                                   
    The ceremony is tough enough for a kid.
    How much fun can a couple have when they must cut up 
    Susie's food and makes sure she eats it? How long
    will her new dress even stay clean? What
    to do when you'd like to stay out for a few dances?
    Where do you put a little one when they need a nap?
    This sounds like a nightmare to me!
    
    I did have a sitter available in case of emergency
    - i.e. someone's sitter cancelled, etc, people
    bringing baby from out of town. Never needed her though.
                                          
    
      
    

    Children at weddings need to be reminded of basic manners *by their
    parents BEFORE THE WEDDING*.  Remembering when I went to a wedding
    with my family, it was very clear that we were to be on our best
    behavior, and if we weren't, we would go home.  Period.  End of
    discussion.
    
    If the parents take the time to explain what's going on, the kids
    aren't as apt to get bored.  How can the kids be expected to behave
    when the parents act like social slugs - talking through the ceremony,
    ignoring their kids, etc.  Yes, kids learn by example.
    
    A wedding is not a 30 minute TV program with frequent commercial
    interruptions!  If the kids can't sit still during the ceremony,
    or act like terrors during the reception, it is up to the parents
    to deal with the situation and *teach them manners*.  
    
    I read about a day-long course in manners which is held at the Ritz
    in NY...aren't parents teaching their children the basics?
    
    What happened to the view that a wedding is a celebration, rather
    than a social obligation or an excuse to "put on the dog"?
    
    Judi
    

    re: .35
    
    � I read about a day-long course in manners which is held at the Ritz
    � in NY...aren't parents teaching their children the basics?
    
    I submit that the phrase "common courtesy" is an oxymoron.
    
    Steve

    I think another line has to be drawn here - when we had our wedding the
    only children that were invited were brothers and sister of the groom
    and first cousins of the bride.  Fortunately none of them were under
    the age of four.   However, I did not want to see third cousin Sally
    with her two kids whom I didn't know and Mom's friend Mr Smiths baby or
    children of the friends from work or my husbands old highschool buddies
    three kids.  If everyone were to bring their children we wouldn't be
    able to invite those that are most important to us.  The line has to be
    drawn - there are monetary and max number of people limits on most
    weddings.  I certainly don't think it is out of line not to invite
    children whom you don't know but to invite the parents with whom you
    want to share your wedding day.  
    
    
    
     Suzanne

    Suzanne,
    
    Agreed.  No matter what the age of your guests, they are part of
    the celebration.  My sister kept her wedding simple; she invited
    only immediate family and godparents.  The guest list could easily
    grown to 300+ people!
    
    During the month before the ceremony, my parents and some friends
    had cocktail parties for my sister and (now) brother-in-law.  It
    gave them a chance to talk to the people at the party, and he wasn't
    inundadated with a flock of new names and faces to remember.
    
    Yes, "common courtesy" is quickly becoming an oxymoron...
    
    Judi
    

    I was invited to 2 weddings as a child, my aunt's and my uncle's.
     We were instructed on what to expect and how to behave before
    attending.  No kids at my wedding 'cause none of my friends had
    any yet.
    
    One of the issues with kids at receptions is the duration of the
    reception.  I was taught that no one can leave the reception before
    the bride & groom.  Reception duration was 2 to 3 hours, depending
    on whether a meal was served or not.  Much longer than that and
    kids will get rowdy.  When planning your wedding, it is one of the
    things to consider - how long do you plan to stay?
    
    I had one set of friends who left at the 2 hour mark, but then returned
    about 45 minutes later.  Those who wanted to leave could, and not
    violate any etiquette rules.  Friends were told of the plan in advance
    and stayed.  The character of the party changed *a lot* for the
    second portion.
    
    Alison

    re: "common courtesy"
    
    Just for the record, while I think that "common courtesy" isn't
    common, I don't think that's always a "bad" thing.  As Desryn
    pointed out earlier, different cultures approach celebrations in 
    diverse ways and when cultures begin to intermingle, I think 
    people need to talk with one another to find out what the common
    grounds are.  
    
    Her note reminded me a little of my own wedding celebration which 
    was, uh, somewhat non-traditional.  Two weeks before the event, we 
    called up a few family and close friends and said, "Hey - we're having 
    a pool party and barbeque in a couple of weeks and it'd be a gas if 
    you could drop by.  Oh, by the way, we're also getting hitched."  A
    few minutes before the justice of the peace began speaking, we hollered
    for people to jump out of the pool for a minute or so and watch
    the "ceremony".  Not quite "O.K.!  Everybody outta the pool NOW!",
    but close enough for rock 'n' roll.  Included in the crowd were
    lots of kids, but I'd have to say that, compared to some of the
    "adults", they were positively staid.
    
    Steve
    
    Oh, and as far as the question in the base note goes, I think the
    inclusion of some sort of note about "No small children, please"
    is a good way to go.

    On our response cards we had
    
    	Number of ADULTS attending
    
    	Hopefully between that, and word of mouth (everyone knows we
    	don't want any children) we wont have any unexpected guests.
    
    	I'll find out the end of August.........

>    On our response cards we had
>    
>    	Number of ADULTS attending
 
    I don't know... if I read that, I might figure that you didn't care
    how many children I brought along.
    
    	-Neil   
    

    It occurred to me that there are more or less two sorts of
    'traditional' American weddings ('nontraditional' being people who
    marry in hot-air balloons, while scuba diving, on skis, and so on...).
    Young people getting married for the first time traditionally have a
    family-oriented wedding, paid for by the bride's family (usually,
    although these days catering is so expensive that sometimes both
    familes help pay).  'Older' couples, or those who have been married
    before, usually pay for the wedding themselves and have a
    friends-oriented wedding, unless they are very close to their families;
    most of our friends are in the early-to-mid thirties and haven't lived
    with their parents and siblings in many years, and may not have any
    family in the area anyway.  So, maybe it is reasonable to expect a
    different mix of guests to be invited to these affairs.  For example, I
    didn't bother to invite my first cousin's two children.  I haven't seen
    my cousin in many years (she lives in San Diego, I live in
    Massachusetts), and I have never met the children.
    
    How much of a problem it is going to be if unexpected people show up is
    going to depend on the event.  A few unexpected small children at a
    buffet will probably get enough to eat anyhow, but could be a real
    problem if the event is catered by the plate (could be a problem anyhow
    if not well-behaved).  You run into enough problems trying to account
    various people's dietary restrictions, especially if some of your
    relatives are elderly.
    
    Ah, well, back to work here...
    /Charlotte

    Re .42:
    
    I had the same reaction as Neil...
    

    When we were married, we decided to draw the "age line" at 15, due
    to a combination of factors--cost, space, and yes, the desire to
    have an "adults only" event.  Our invitations went to the people
    invited, without a "no children" insert.  What we did was have everyone
    "responsible" for a name appearing on the guest list  (my parents,
    Tom's parents, and us, take responsibility for "spreading the word").
     It worked well in that we had no uninvited guesets, but two of
    my father's sisters did not attend because "it was too difficult
    to find a sitter".  One did not RSVP, did not send a gift, and although
    she'll speak to us if we run into her, has otherwise ceased all
    correspondence.  When her oldest daughter was married (who HAD been
    invited to our wedding, by the way), we were not invited, although
    my younger sister (who had had the whole clan at her wedding) was.
    My feelings are that if she feels that way, we really didn't want
    her to "celebrate" our day with us.
    
    My only point is to remind you that families can be odd things,
    and although you do have every right to do what you and your
    husband-to-be want, others may not agree with that.
    
    Have a great day!   
    
    Susan

    Traditionally, if the invitation is addressed to Mr. and Ms. Whatever,
    it is implied that they are the ONLY people invited.  If you wish
    to designate the children, it is appropriate to address the invitation
    to Mr. and Ms. Whatever and Family.  This precludes the need to
    give excuses or try to explain yourself.  Hopefully, most people
    are aware of this and would act accordingly.
   

    Best Wishes on Your Start of a New Life,
    
    Barb

    This may be slightly off topic, but I find this string so
    amazing that I can't resist.

    I just can't imagine getting married and telling my friends and
    family that they can't bring their kids.  I can easily imagine
    they might WANT to come without their children, a 'night out',
    but explicitly excluding them seems like the ultimate in 'tacky'.

    Our solution is simple...if the invitation says 'no kids', then
    we probably wouldn't want to be their either.  So we reply 'no thanks'.
    bob

    			-< I CANNOT RESIST ANY LONGER EITHER>-
    
    RE. -1
    
    I agree whole heartely.  I always ASS-*-U-*-MEd that a wedding was
    a family affair and that since children are a part of the family
    that they are welcome.  I have gone to a wedding without taking
    my son but it was for a night out alone (there were children at
    that wedding).  I would also be inclined to not attend an adult
    only wedding.  It is hard to find a sitter in our own town let alone
    out of it.
    
    Concerning amount of food.  My mom is a caterer (SP?) and always
    has plenty of food left over after a buffet and sit down meal. 
    I can't imagine there not being enough food.  She always plans on
    there being a few uninvited guest and a few no shows.  Nothing is
    ever 100% percise.
    
    Just my humble opinion but no kids means no fun to me!
    
    

    Today a wedding can cost between $5000 and $20,000, depending on how
    fancy the couple decides to go. Frequently some things are charged per
    plate used. A few extra kids can end up costing unexpected hundreds of
    dollars. I think for that amount of money, a person should be able to
    create the ambience they wish, which in a lot of cases *does not*
    include the commotion, noise and fuss children can create.

    When Jon and I got married I wanted a select number of children there.
    They were all invited specifically, by name, on the invitations. To some
    families, I sent multiple invitations. The children who were there are
    also my friends and were welcome. But I have been to many, many
    weddings were children would have been a very large problem and were
    not welcome. I have no problem with that.
                                                         
    Tamzen

    
    When I entered this basenote I never dreamed I'd get so many diverse
    responses!                  
    
    As Tamzen stated in the previous reply, weddings are astronomically
    expensive these days.  If we had unlimited financial resources,
    or if someone else gallantly volunteered to foot the bill and told
    us the sky's the limit, then we'd invite everyones kids.
    We could also skimp alot and not have the kind of wedding we both
    have always wanted to have, and invite everyone's kids.  As I
    previously stated, this is not something we're taking lightly and
    it wasn't easy to come to the decision to have an adult only wedding.
    
    Regarding a couple responses back: To call our decision tacky is 
    being a little less than sympathetic to our situation, wouldn't you say?
    If someone we've invited has the same attitude as you and decides
    to stay home because we haven't invited their children, then all
    I can say is they'll be missed.  I might add that, children or no
    children, we've planned our reception with fun and entertainment
    in mind so I dare say that they'll miss out on a good time.
    
    When I entered this note I asked for ideas on how to get the "adult
    only/no children" message across as tactfully as possible.  I realize
    this may be a sensitive issue for those of you with children that
    you treasure and I really don't want to push anyone's buttons. 
    I don't want this note to turn into a "why you should invite
    children to a wedding" debate.  I've been to weddings where there
    have been kids and they've been fine and I had fun, but I can't
    say it was because children were in attendance.  Besides, the
    children's behavior wasn't even a factor in our decision and that's
    not the issue here.
    
    Anyway, this is definitely an educational experience and it's preparing
    me for the responses we'll get (or won't get??) once the invitations
    are sent out.
          
    Regards,
    Cherie
    

    
    Since we have already had one discussion of cultural differences
    with the possible impact of a US marriage with non-US guests, I'll
    pick up on .46 here. In strict British etiquette it is *never* correct
    to address anything to "Mr & Mrs Smith and family" or "the Smith
    family" and in direct contradistinction to what you tell us is the
    US norm a letter addressed to "Mr & Mrs Smith", and/or an invitation
    to "Mr & Mrs Smith" is assumed to include all minor children (adult
    children would be separately invited).
                                                    
    Further the courtesy reply of "we will be attending" would be assumed
    to mean the entire family will attend...
    
    But then when I was growing up it was considered improper to take
    children to a restaurant until they were old enough to behave (I
    was about 9 when I first had a meal in a restaurant - prior to that
    I ate at home, or if we were in a hotel I ate in the room). I attended
    my first wedding when I was 10 - but wasn't invited to the reception.
    My first Wedding Breakfast invite was when I was about 13, and I
    wasn't invited to attend a reception until I was about 15 or so.
    
    When I was small my mother would sometimes take me to "see the couple
    leave the church", and at the first wedding [ceremony] I attended
    my parents took me home after the ceremony, and missed out on the
    Wedding Breakfast, but then went on to attend the reception in the 
    evening (without me of course).
                                                       
    /. Ian .\
    

    I am amazed that so many responses to this note have been so
    violently anti-children.  If you decide that you can't afford to cater
    for children, fine, but why did we have to confuse the issue with so
    much anti-child propaganda?
    
    I can see that a crying baby during the marriage ceremony can be a
    problem (although most people I know would take their children out of
    the church/register office if they started making a noise), but most
    children behave pretty well at social gatherings PROVIDED they are not
    totally ignored.  Adults, on the other hand, can behave appallingly,
    and often seem to do so at weddings. 
    
    Ro
    

    I've not read all the replies to this note yet, so this may be a
    duplicate suggestion....you could enclose a card that states "adult
    reception".  
    
    P.
    

    re: .52
    
    � . . .so many responses to this note have been so violently anti-
    � children. . .why did we have to confuse the issue with so
    � much anti-child propaganda?
    
    Those strike me as mighty strong words and accusatory in their
    implications.  What would you quote as being "violently anti-children"
    or "propaganda"?  When you say that "Adults, on the other hand, can 
    behave appallingly, and often seem to do so at weddings." should
    I consider that anti-adult propaganda?
    
    Steve

    re .54
    
    OK, so maybe my words were a bit strong.  I'm not going to go through
    all the notes to find evidence to support my claim.  Maybe I wouldn't
    find it in any single note, as it was my overall impression that
    several replies were anti-children.  I didn't mean to
    cause offence.  I merely wanted to express my concern that an innocent
    request for help on how to tackle a real problem brought out
    several off-the-point expressions of the opinion that children at
    weddings are to be avoided **at all costs**.  As a mother of 2 small
    children, this kind of attitude depresses me, even though I, too, enjoy
    my time away from them.
    
    No, you shouldn't consider the remark about adults behaving appallingly
    as anti-adult propaganda - just a simple statement of fact.  Maybe this
    is another cultural difference? ;^}
    
    ro

    RE.52 
    
    I've read all of the replies and I can't say I've seen any "violently
    anti-children" notes.  I guess it's all in the interpretation. 
    

    re: .55
    
         The message I've gotten from the notes I've read has been "If
    you don't want children at your wedding, don't bow to pressures
    to allow them."  I agree with that message, and I will understand
    if a friend doesn't want our son to attend her/his wedding.  I also
    expect a friend to accept my decline of her/his invitation without
    being offended if we can't find childcare during the wedding.
    
    ASP

    
    -1 says it all and so well. It's your day, so do what you want.
    
    The kids or no kids issue is bigger than you think. They can so easily
    mess up the whole day for everyone, yet can also help remove the
    stuffiness from the formalities. Basically, if money is the issue, then 
    say no kids to keep the numbers down. If your budget can cope with
    kids, only invite those who will behave and not spoil the day for
    others. I went to a wedding a month ago where the bride's children from
    her first marriage were the centre of attention rather than the happy
    couple - wish that had been a no kids do for all the adults sakes.
    
    When we got married last year we had a total of 6 kids present. Our 4
    nieces and nephews were there with their parents for the whole bash and
    had plenty of folks around (grandparents etc) to tell them to behave. 
    As the two year old was not that great for the photographs or the speeches,
    her mum missed out on some aspects of the day, but it was important to 
    have all the close family there.
    
    As for friends with children - one refused to bring their child as they
    wanted a day off and the others doubled checked that it was OK to bring
    their toddlers even though they were included on the invite!!
    
    Guess we were lucky that everyone, including the adults behaved!!
    
    
                               seals
    
                                                                      

    Cherie,
    
    I am getting married in September and we too have had to deal with
    getting the message accross that not "all" children will be invited.
    My parents, me and my fiance are all dividing the cost of the wedding
    and have had to cut back to stay within budget.  We were told that
    the first place to cut back is on the guest list.  We decided that
    those children who are close to us will be invited, but distant
    relatives, i.e. 2nd cousins and some friend's children will not
    be.   We were told by our coordinater at the reception hall that
    children under the age of 6 need not be included in the count as
    they don't eat much and can sit on parents laps.  You may want to
    check into this with your reception coordinator - we had to ask
    to find this out.  
    
    The way we're handeling the invitations is by following the directions
    enclosed with our invitations.  It says to address the outside of
    the envlope to Mr. and Mrs. Joe Smith, then, in the inner envelope
    you put Mr. and Mrs. Smith.  This indidates just TWO people invited.
    IF children are included it was addressed to Mr. and Mrs. Joe Smith
    on the outside, then on the inside to Mr. and Mrs. Smith, Jonny
    and Lisa.  This specifies the children invited.  
    
    We have also called those people who have children and we didn't
    invite them and explained to them very honestly that we wished we
    could afford to have their children, but simply can't and we hoped
    they'd understand.  So far we have had no problems.  
    
    And for us, it's nothing against children, it the cost... at $26.60
    per person, it adds up very quickly!   It wasn't an easy decision
    for us either, it took lots of thought and prayer.  
    
    Good Luck!
    
    Judy
    

    I think it's TACKY to bring children to a wedding reception when
    they are NOT invited.
    
    Anna
    

I have found this string positively fascinating.

Many, many of you have made assumptions based on your experiences of 
weddings and the costs that those particular weddings have had.
I have made my own assumptions based on my own wedding.

For us, we told people that whoever wanted to come to our wedding was
invited.  Some folks expressed amazement that this would cost us so much
more - BUT IT DIDN'T.  The church was already arranged.  Whether the seat
was empty or full cost us the same amount.  If we had not wanted a child 
there then it would have been because of potential noise.  We knew our
young ringbearer would get fidgety so we had him sit down after his part
was finished.  His parents were both on the alter with us, and he fidgeted,
but it was fine.

It is the RECEPTION that can cost, but again it does not necessarily mean 
extra expense for more people, especially children.  We did not have a sit-down
meal as part of the reception; the cake was there, the hors d'oeuvres were 
there.  The food was not catered, so things were not very expensive.  We had
plenty left over.  If twice as many people had come, it would not have cost
us any more.  So many people in this file have talked about the expense of
inviting the children; it is not necessarily so.

In addition, as our child is just over a year old, many of our friends invite
us someplace EXPECTING that he will come and are surprised if we ask them
whether or not he is invited.  Therefore, when we get a letter/invitation
addressed to just us, it does not necesssarily mean that Evan was excluded.
Recently we called and asked the bride of an out-of-town wedding and were told
that he was not included.  That was fine...until our babysitter cancelled the
day before the wedding.  We called and asked if we could bring him to just the
reception (he could eat our cake if he wanted some) and were told no.  We then
had to cancel going (as it turned out we had guests that night to dinner who
volunteered to babysit).  We understood the reason, that the other guests 
might feel bad, but it was not the way I would have handled it; I tend to 
want to make my friends feel wanted, that I try to put few obstackles in their
way.  

Lastly, many of you have said that people would be RELIEVED to have time
away from their kids.  If they really want time away from their kids they
do not need you as an excuse to do so!!!!  They can GET a babysitter!
If you do not want kids at your wedding, then don't have them, but don't 
think that you are doing them a favor by making this decision for them.

                  Carol

    Even though this string of notes is somewhat old, I couldn't help
    but respond.  I, too, have found it fascinating.  I certainly
    understand the bride and groom's desire to have the wedding of their
    choice.  But as far as the children issue is concerned I can't help
    but wonder if they lack a little understanding.  It isn't always
    as easy as one would think to leave the little one behind.  At my
    wedding, everyone was invited! My family came from 350 miles away,
    who were my sisters and brothers to leave the little ones with for
    two days?  All my relatives were at the wedding, so they were
    unavailable for babysitting.  But then, I have never gone for the
    stuffy formalities of traditional weddings.
    
    I guess my feelings are that if I can attend a wedding without the
    children comfortably, knowing they are in good care, I will.  This
    is not always possible, and if the children are definitely excluded
    and I cannot find child care I will decline going.  I would also
    add that when I recently attended a wedding where I was told children
    were not welcome, and bent over backwards finding child care for
    them, and then found out that many couples had indeed brought their
    kids, I was incensed.  Obvoiusly, some people were "permitted" to
    bring theirs, and I was not.  This is not to say I really wnated
    to bring my kids, I just really wanted toattend the wedding.  You
    wouldn't believe the extent I went to to get someone to watch my
    kids, that belongs in another note.
    
    I think a little empathy is in order on both sides on thes issue.
    

    The way we handled the "no children" at our wedding was to put
    the following on the RSVP card:
    
    		----  number of adults
    
    We also passed the word around.  The only children who attended
    were those in the wedding party.

        On the whole, if our kids aren't invited, we don't come. In part
        the reason is ecconomic-we still haven't gotten over the
        double-whammy of Selma no longer getting a pay-check coincident
        with the advent of three new mouths to feed. But after some
        thought it is also philosophical, as well. If one treats
        children as something noisesome that you wouldn't want in polite
        company then that's what you're gonna get, and that ain't what I
        want.
        
        My boys are not angels, nor are they grown-ups and they don't
        behave as either, but for the little people that they are they
        are very well-behaved kids. I think a lot of that is due to the
        demands of behaving well at mixed age parties and the benefits
        of their having friends who are older than their parents. When
        they are treated by their friends who are getting married as
        someone who deserves to be invited on their own, they learn how
        people should act towards people they care for.
        
        JimB.

    RE: .64 And that's why Jim and Selma's children were invited when Jon
    and I got married. They're my friends, too.
    
    Tamzen

    re. -.64 (Jim) - exploring the rat-hole you've uncovered:
    
    Wow, Jim, I think you've hit on something I've been trying to lay
    my finger on -- why my contemporaries seemed better able to cope
    in adult gatherings at a younger age than my children.  As children
    we were included in everything -- church services, funerals, weddings,
    family councils, PTA meetings.  In short, anywhere my parents went,
    we went, too.  Sure, we squirmed a bit at times, but we quickly
    learned to behave politely.  I developed a lively imagination while
    my body was attending many of these events (though weddings always
    fascinated me and earned my full attention).
    
    By the time my children came along, churches had nurseries to tend
    the youngsters, PTA meetings were held during the daytime while
    the children were in school, and funerals were considered too morbid
    for children to attend (although we were fortunate enough not to
    have any funerals to attend during those years).  Children were,
    for the most part, relegated to children's activities, and parties
    for adults tended to be adult-only.  It's only at family gatherings,
    such as reunions, that my children and their peers had an opportunity 
    to mingle with adults.
    
    I fear that, as a result, my children missed out on some of the
    richness of experience I had.  But I also know that they were allowed
    to be child-like, while my brothers and I were forced into a miniature
    adult mode from a very early age.  (My grandmother once told me
    about her anger toward my father when he took me out of a church
    service and spanked me on the front steps of the church for misbehaving
    during the service.  I was 9 months old at the time!)
    
    I do like the idea of children and non-related adults being friends, 
    though! 
    
    Karen
                                                        

    I invited lots of our friends and thier families to my wedding and I am
    glad I did.
    
    At the reception they danced on the dance floor with the rollong chairs
    and pushed and spun each other and had a great time. I recall any of
    them misbehaving and we got most of every thing on tape.
    
    I still think weddings are family celebrations and our families had a
    great time.
    janet
    

    Please allow me to shed a little different light on this subject.
    I am planning a spring or fall wedding, and I HAVE every intention to 
    invite CHILDREN...Please understand the ways of today and give thought
    to what I am going to write ...
    Charlie has a child from a previous marriage, I have a child from a
    previous relationship and Charlie and I have a child together..
    On our wedding day, we plan to marry as husband/wife and mother/father
    we have written our vows as such:
    I, Tammy Thompson (new married name) from this day forward, promise
    to Love, Honor and respect Our Daughter Robyn, thru sickness and in
    health, thru good times and bad, till death do US part. 
    Charlie says the same thing but says Paula's name.  
    These vows are to follow the normal wedding vows.
    This is the biggest moment in my life, and my children are in my life
    they are to be a part of the festivities as well.
    I never expect to here Charlie say to me if Paula gets in trouble...
    she is YOUR daughter.  and vise-versa. 
    I also want my children to meet the rest of the family members who
    might live far away. To know their nephews and nieces.  
    I also want to give the message across to my family and his that there
    are no steps in my house......
    3 years of holidays and birthdays have passed.. Paula has yet to get a
    card on her birthday and my family has failed to send one to Robyn....
    Enough is enough.... children are people too.... 
    Yes we are paying this ourselves, yes we are catering to the needs of
    children... the reception will be a cook out style affair with band
    and food.... however on our invitations we are trying to figure out how
    politely can we say Bring Your Own Beer.
    Tell me something...you are so affraid of children spoiling the event
    you try to use the excuse alcohol will be served....
    Do You or Have you given second thoughts to that uncle who drinks alot,
    or how bout that aunt that when she is drunk starts singing, are you
    not going to invite them for there rude behavior???
    Do you know your State Law regarding drinking and driving???
    Do you realize that in the state of Massachusetts, the host or hostess
    is RESPONSIBLE for their guests, so if uncle Tom Kills someone driving
    home from Your reception guess what.... I don't want to be in your
    shoes.  
    Sorry, I do drink, I am a mother and a future bride... kids are in my
    life, kids will be in my wedding and reception.
    Alcohol will be served, but my guests will each have there own supply.
    Maybe I was able to put a little light on the future wedding of single 
    parents..... 
    I am sure my attitude might be alittle different if neither one of us
    had children.