Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    
    Cathy,
    
    I think you handled the situation well.
    
    My parents divorced when I was about Colleen's age (with similar
    visitation rights to the ones you describe).
    
    I these kinds of arrangements seem to be the best that our society can
    workout to try to balance the rights of all involved; but I believe
    that this often does result in added stress or "confusion" for
    children.  (By the way, I am in NO way advocating avoiding divorce for
    the sake of the child--something which I think causes even more
    trouble).
    
    One thing which can be very helpful is to give the child some sense of
    control/choice over her life; as you/your husband did when you let 
    Colleen chose to "move" the date of her birthday.
    
    It was not clear to me from your note that there are
    undercurrents/major unresolved issues which need professional
    intervention.
    
    I agree that it is not helpful to the child for one parent to tell her
    how awful the other parent is/was.  (Which is what I think you meant by
    "not saying anything bad".)  
    
    On the other hand, when children ask, I think they need to be told
    truthfully (but with some filtering) what is/did go on between their
    parents.
    
    I think Collen is lucky to have parents as sensitive and concerned for
    her welfare as you and your husband.  
    

    

    
    	Here's a couple of things we do...
    
    >She cried harder. She was angry.  She told me she was "always" home
    >for her birthday and that she did not want to go at all.  I stressed to
    >her that she was a lucky little girl that she would have 2 birthday
    >parties and twice as many presents.  She said she didn't care and that
    >this "scares" her. I said  " you mean it confuses you" she said yes.
     
    	I believe you may have invalidated her actual feelings here;
    those of pain, anger and in being scared. This was done by two things;
    
    	1. You tried to motivate her to stop crying by _guilting_ her
    with the "lucky little girl" statement. (There is nothing odd about
    your doing this, it's as common in our society as apple pie.) Inciting
    guilt is just a lousy way to motivate someone...
    
    	2. You invalidated her actual expression of her feeling by
    "correcting" her on it. "You mean you feel _____". "_____" being
    something different than what was actually said. (Again, this is
    the usual treatment children get in our society and you've done
    nothing inordinary.) Invalidating someone's choice of words is akin
    to invalidating their corresponding feelings. How many times has that 
    been shown to be true in this conference alone? Why isnt how _they_
    chose to say it "good enough"; cause "they're just a seven year old"?
    
    	IMHO, of course, I believe that it's still accepted prectice
    to invalidate childrens feelings as a matter of course in parenting.
    It's so acceptable, that it's a reflexive response, with no thought
    given to what that's doing to the children. IMHO, the 6-7 year old
    child is *extremely* perceptive, perhaps 10 or maybe even 100 times
    moreso than "any" parent gives them credit for. This child is fully
    aware of the *discrepancy* in her Birthday dates; she know's one is 
    'true' and the other is some falsification to accomodate something that
    is yet unresolved, both in her own mind and in reality. The shenanigan
    is simply no longer appropriate for her now.
    
    	Personally, I think it's *fantastic* that she's willing to resolve
    it herself, in an effort to obtain her own piece of mind considering
    this issue. She's apparently willing to try, using whatever resources
    she has available to her (Daddy). I'm applauding her right now,
    in my office. A *7* year old!
    
    	What are we doing to the children? Quite frankly, we bullsh!t
    them to a large extent, "thinking" somehow we know better and are
    saving them from unnecessary pain and anguish. That this backfires
    often and eventually says to me that we're not so smart as parents.
    We're something else.
    
    	My recommendation is, that you help, encourage and enhance your
    little girl's efforts to resolve these things for herself in any
    way that you can. And be proud that her natural tenacity is one
    geared toward problem resolution in the context of herself and how
    she feels.
    
    	I've always suspected that this is a "natural" for young people,
    until it is flogged out of existance by a consistant parental response
    of invalidation of feelings and even worse, the invokation of the
    shame response in children for even voicing their concerns; "Children
    are to be see and not heard" etc ect et al.
    
    	Joe Jas                                    
    
    	                                        

    Those are good thoughts, Joe.  Keeping all that in mind, what would
    you recommend Cathy should do, _specifically_?
    
    -Tracy
    

    Remind me never to ask for help in this file. Yes, I will feel free
    to call on certain individuals for help but not others. 
    
    I learned when I tear someone's idea apart I try to give them a
    positive to replace it with.
    
    re:.0 Hang in there. Maybe you and Dad should have a long talk.
       
    Kate
    

    Kate,
    
    Maybe I'm dense but would you point out which notes you felt were
    not helpful towards the base noter's problem or kind and gentle
    to her? The only note that I found at all strong we .6 which wasn't
    really aimed at the basenoter, but at the author's perception of
    what's happening to children to day...kind of tangential to the
    topic.
    
    Bonnie

    re .0
    
    I've been in your shoes.  It hurts when we can't *really* do anything
    about the item which is causing our child pain.  Both you and your
    husband handled this very sensitively and very well.  My kid really
    does need help (and most kids do) articulating the very confusing
    emotions which are being felt.  I always encouraged my child to
    think through what was bothering him with his father, to come up
    with what he wanted to say, to rehearse it with me if that was what
    it took, and then to talk to his Dad directly.  
    
    You can only do your best, and your best will be 'good enough' when
    the kid knows that she is loved.
    
    Alison

The most important thing you can do is care how your child feels, and listen
to her. From your basenote it sounds like you are doing this.

My parents got divorced when I was an adult (23) and so the situation is
different then being a child. But I went through a lot of strong feelings
of confusion, identity issues, having trouble trusting relationships etc.
I think these feelings are normal for all kids whose parents get divorced
no matter what the age. 

Your daughter has these feelings, and it is natural that she have them. The
best thing you can do is listen to them, don't invalidate them, and let
her work them out. As she gets older she is going to have to figure out
what the best relationship is for her with both you and her father. Don't
push her to have a better relationship with her father than she has. She
needs to figure out that relationship without having you in the middle
or a part of it. (Some parents push for a worse relationship but from
your note that doesn't seem likely in your case which is a great statement
about you!).

The birthday issue is a tough one. I think you need to encourage her to talk
this over with her father as well. I know with a young child it is natural
to want to intervene (and sometimes it may be necessary) but the best thing
is for her to develop her relationship with her Dad independent from you.

Whatever you do try not to feel guilty. Divorce is tough, and an
unfortunate choice, but I still believe that it is better for the children
to grow up with divorced parents than to grow up in a family with a 
bad marriage. 

There is a book that is written up in People magazine this month about the
"Children of Divorce". I don't have the exact name or author but People
should be in your local grocery store and the name and author are in there.
The book is not encouraging in the sense that it says that children of
divorce don't get over it easily. But it is encouraging in that we as a
soceity are starting to understand what the problems these children face
are. I believe it also gives some tips for divorced parents on how to
make it easier for the child. A disclaimer - I read the article in People
but I have not yet read the book, though I plan to.

Good Luck, you sound like a caring parent.

Muggsie

    
    	Re .5- Specifically?
    
    	- Learn to be a better listener. Being a good listener involves
    lots of "yeah, and then what?"s, by which I mean one participates
    in the conversation in a way that fosters the other person's expression
    of themselves. It's obvious that invalidating their expressions
    is a bit less than "fostering"...BTW, understanding a person's choice 
    of words and tone is _part_ of listening. How they say it can tell you as 
    much as what they're saying, in terms of how they really feel!
    
    	- Watch your contexts when motivating or even speaking to someone. 
    When you want to get someone to do something or stop doing something, 
    it's very important how you make your wishes known. By "how" I mean
    the structure and tone of one's speaking, but also the "reasoning"
    part or the "why" logic to it. There are three "poor choice" contexts 
    I can think of right off;
    
    	1. Motivation by guilt. "I stressed to her that she was a lucky
    little girl that she would have 2 birthdays..." Make the person
    feel guilty for their behavior or what they're doing / have done. This 
    replaces their current feeling with the "guilty feeling", with which 
    they learn to dwell in, enough of which can lead to "feeling guilty" 
    simply for existing, and shame.
    
    	2. Motivation in "other-directed" context. "she should make him
    happy and be there for her birthday." This teaches one to place
    the concerns and feelings of _others_ ahead of their own; once
    established as a permanent "cybernetic" function, it allows for 
    co-dependancy later in life.
    
    	3. Motivation in negative context. "I said that because she wasn't 
    going to be with..." This is like telling someone what *not* to do.
    It's been shown that people's minds have trouble comprehending the
    negative context, and if a motivation is given in this way, the
    result is often exactly what was asked "not" to occur. It's simply
    the poorer choice, over a positive contexting. An example from a
    subsequent reply (.11):
                                                               
    	"The book is not encouraging in the sense that it says that
    children of divorce dont get over it easily."
    
    	I mean, how much brain_processing time do you have to spend to 
    figure out what this sentance means? What's encouraging? What's easy
    for children to do? Passing it through the "negative context filter",
    it emerges as:
    
    	"The book is discouraging in the sense that it says that children
    of divorce have difficulty getting over it."
    
    	Can anyone see the acute difference between the two, in terms
    of comprehension? In other words, negative contextual sentance 
    structures are basically incomprehensable to a child, barely 
    comprehensable to an adult, IMHO. Perhaps there's a reason why 
    parent's reasoning never made any sense to a child!
    
    	Joe Jas 
    	                                                  
 

    Joe,
    
    What I was trying to ask (in .5) is what you would have actually
    said and done if you were the one in that conversation with Colleen
    Wednesday night, in lieu of the statements that Cathy made and you
    felt were less than ideal.  I guess I'm looking for an example of
    applying the (still general) ideas (i.e., "...be a good listener.")
    that you're offering.      
    
    Hoping this is clear,
    
    -Tracy
          

    
    	Tracy -
    
    	Well, you've "got me" by what you've asked, cause I can only
    say with a clear conscious that I *most likely* would have made the
    very same poorer choices, if I were actually in the real time conversation 
    with Colleen this past Wednesday myself...
    
    	Let me be the first to admit that it's much different to sit
    here from a removed position and offer comments and suggestions
    in considering what is best, than it is to actually perform that
    way _yourself_ in real time. That I can even see somewhat clearly
    what is happening is because of the removed perspective that I have.
    I am hoping that this perception has some kind of value to someone 
    else, is all.
    
    	You can bet that when I'm a parent, my reflexive response to
    many situations in which my child or children are involved in will be 
    less than ideal. I'll make mistakes and poor choices, in my haste
    or whatever. But, one thing I do have going for me is that I expect
    to make them and know what they are. With a little concern for these
    things, I can perhaps head them off before spouting something like;
    
    	"DONT DO THAT, IT DOESNT MAKE YOUR FATHER HAPPY AND YOU SHOULD
    FEEL ASHAMED OF YOURSELF NOW - YOU DONT KNOW HOW LUCKY YOU ARE TO
    HAVE A FATHER LIKE ME - WHY - THERE'S CHILDREN IN THIS VERY
    NEIGHBORHOOD WHO'S FATHER'S DONT GIVE A DAMN ABOUT THEM...!!"
    
    	Hardly a product of positive, higher consciousness thinking.
    
    	Joe Jas  
    
    	 

    
    
    	Thanks for all of the answers.  Let me add a few things.
    
    	By asking the question " What are WE doing to the children?" I
    	meant as a very general statement,  and I guess I was asking 
    	myself really.
      
    	Joe you said I should be a better listener...well I guess you have
    	the same problem while reading, I asked for no lectures.  Just for
    	what someone else would have done.  Specifically because I can not
    	change what I have already said....BUT someone else's thoughts on
    	how to handle it might help the next time.
    
    	I don't remember which reply answered the general question " what
    	are we doing to the children" but the answer was what I had been
    	asking myself.
    
    	Thank you for asking for kinder replies...you surely understood how
    	I felt that night.
    
    	And thanks to all who have been there as childern of divorced
    	parents....your replies tell me it is possible to raise a child
    	in a tough situation and have them turn out "just fine".
    
    	Cathy -  who will try to remember to listen and think rationally
       	instead emotionally.
     

    Cathy,
    
    Just wanted to offer a quick word of encouragement.  I was divorced
    by the time my son was 1 year old, never remarried, always worked
    full time to support us (never received child support), and my son
    who is now 15, is a wonderful person to know and share life with
    - even through the most trying times.
    
    I tried to minimize saying too many negative comments about his
    father (but I'm not perfect), but I never tried to present his father
    as any better than he is.  My son accepts his father for what he
    is, doesn't have unrealistic expectations, has some sadness that
    the relationship with his father couldn't be more than it is, but
    he has survived, progressed, and will continue to do so.
    
    So..it hasn't and won't be easy, but it is very rewarding that despite
    the hardships, my son and I have a very close relationship even
    though the home environment was not the `ideal' environment that
    one might choose to raise children in - but it doesn't mean it can't
    work.
    
    Hang in there - there are many challenges in life - but you sound
    up to them.
    
    tj