Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    Your sister-in-law is definitely addicted to this man.  Considering
    that she becomes depressed when she separates from him, and then
    to relieve the depression returns, I should think she might want
    to consider getting some therapy.  Has she considered this?
    
    Needless to say, *but* has she ever read "Women Who Love Too Much"?
    It has a wealth of good sense and even when one is not in an addictive
    relationship, there are little things in it which are interesting
    and could be applied to any relationship--friend, lover or anyone
    very close to oneself.
    
    To get out of this kind of relationship is almost as difficult, sometimes,
    as it is to quit any other addiction.  Painful, slow, depressing,
    but if ever accomplished, can be looked back upon as one of the
    toughest battles ever fought and won.  And as in breaking any other
    kind of addiction, the loving support, encouragement and daily [if
    necessary at first] being there is something family and friends
    can do which makes it easier.
    
    I speak from past experience of several kinds.  Good luck to her.
    
    M
    

    re: .0
    
    
    I have a relationship similar to the one you described, although my SO
    and I are a littel younger.  He is immature, and twists words around,
    and always seems to get his own way... and sometimes I really can't
    stand him, but it is all the time that I can stand him, the time that I
    really LOVE him and everything about him that makes me stay around. I
    could never do without him, as much as he hurts me sometimes.  I truly
    think that he doesn't know he does the things he does, and when he
    realizes it, he really feels bad about it. 
    
    My mother, in what she sees and hears of the relationship, thinks I
    would be better off without him, but I strongly disagree. Maybe the
    situation you describe is very similar. 
    
    My SO still has a lot of growing up to do, but I am willing to help him
    do that, and he has come a long way in the past couple of years we've
    been living with each other. Not to say there aren't still problems,
    but they aren't as bad as they used to be. 
    
    A month or so ago, things got the worst they had been in a long time,
    and I just couldn't fight to keep the relationship alive anymore. I was
    already starting to plan a life of my own. I think he saw or felt that,
    and he felt threatened, and realized a little more how much I really
    meant to him, and how much he really depends on me, and how much he
    really loves me. He changed, overnight, into the sweetest, gentlest,
    most caring man I think I have ever been out with. And he's still like
    that now. 
    
    A week ago he went on a camping trip with a friend of his. I missed him
    terribly while he was gone, and it hurt me so bad, but when he came
    back he was more talkative about his feelings, and more affectionate,
    and things are better than ever right now.
    
    So, maybe there is a happy ending in the situation you described, even
    though things don't look so bright right now...
    
    

    I believe we've got a co-dependent behavior pattern here.  Having
    been there for 14 years in the distant past, I can assure you that
    counseling is THE best solution to the addiction (not to mention
    getting out of the relationship ASAP).
    
    Wishing you and your sister the best,
    
    Barb

    My college  roommate  was  in  a  relationship like that. I didn't
    realize how bad it was until I ran into him late one afternoon. He
    looked happier than I'd ever seen him, so I asked him what was up.
    "Lucinda  hasn't  talked to me all day." It was a couple of months
    after that that they broke up.

--David

    
    I was going to suggest "Women Who Love Too Much" too. I think it's
    very rare that someone actually changes. .2 is very lucky, but it's
    not something I would count on.
    
    My best friend is going through the same thing. Sometimes her boyfriend
    can be really sweet and loving, other times he's violent and abusive
    (more emotionally than physically). She knows she should break it
    off, but then she thinks about the good times. I told her that if
    she eventually did break up with him, I saw her in a few years
    saying to me "I can't believe I ever put up with that!" She asked
    me if I thought I could fall for anyone else after my last breakup
    or ever get back together with the person (someone not abusive, but 
    who had problems in other ways), and I told her I'd rather be alone 
    than deal with those kinds of difficulties.
    
    Working in a relationship is one thing. Struggling is another.
    
    Roberta
                       

               
    	Reading a book is one thing, heck I've read "Love and addiction"
    by Stanton Peele 10 years ago and yet was to go through being addicted
    to someone, oh, 3-4 times since. That the acedemic understanding
    in itself did not halt this personality trait of mine says something,
    and it's not that "I'm stupid", mind you.
    
    	What it really says is that the personality trait of becoming
    addicted to another person is merely the symptom of something bigger.
    Treating it directly, has about the same effect as treating a cold;
    *temporary* relief. Stop treatment, and the relief goes away. Sustain
    treatment and the "bigger" problem may show itself, however, treatment
    of it's symptoms is one step too far removed to really effect *it*.
    It tends to stay, as a result. One can spend thousands in counseling
    for treatment of symptoms and never get to the true problem.      
    
    	Co-Dependancy is becoming a widely understood term for a symptom
    of the "social disease" of Adult Children. Adult Children are the
    result of a family trauma of sufficient magnitude to render the
    actual (or virtual) loss of these people's childhood. Alcoholism or 
    death of a parent, divorce and abandonment or belief_extremism are 
    examples of trauma that can result in this happening to someone.
    
    	Recovering from a traumatic childhood is likely a difficult
    and involved effort. So much so, that many people cannot touch that
    which is buried deep inside them, or behind "the wall" as Pink Floyd's
    documentation of this phenomena so elloquently described. The sentance
    of tearing down the wall was unbearably painful to pink, because
    it's existance was to protect him from the pain of his own shame
    given to him via his father's, mother's and teacher's "abandonment".
    
    	Shaming is such a powerful tool for controling people, that
    the album was banned in some south African country, as I recall...
    
    	Supposedly, with these things all cleared up within, there would
    be no question in your mind as to "what to do" when your SO becomes
    violent and abusive - you split, immediately and never return. The
    very first time.
    
    	Feeling shameful and undeserving and helpless is what allows
    lots of things, among them repeated physical beatings, where the
    victim keeps on returning to the perpetrator; "Cuz I love 'im [sniff!]"
    Right...It's something much more than what you now think is "love".
    
    	Joe Jas

    This subject struck a chord with me.  I've been divorced (never
    remarried) for approx. 14 years.  I still have a love/hate/fondness
    /frustrated/friendship with my EX.  There seems to be some deep
    link that has never been cut that keeps bringing us into relationship.
    
    There is a 15 year old son (the only `real' positive product of
    our relationship) that does contribute to the linkage - but its
    more than that.  He drives me nuts when I'm around him because he
    has never really grown up or taken reponsibility - he's 37.  But
    he knows me well - when there's been no one else - he's been there
    as a friend - and I know I will never make a commitment to him again,
    but the relationship sporadically continues.
    
    I once thought I had him out of my life for good and told my son
    that it was up to him to continue his relationship with his father,
    because I would no longer be the facilitator, which my son understood
    and accepted (he holds no illusions, and accepts his father as is).
    
    But...it didn't stay that way.  Until I commit to relationship with
    another man or move out of state - whatever this process is for
    me and my EX - seems to continue. (he never remarried, either) 
    Both of us know we could never live together - and only get along
    if there is plenty of time, space, freedom involved.
    
    ????
    
    
    tj

    The following response is from a member of our community who wishes to
    remain anonymous at this time.

    						=maggie

    ===================================================================

    My heart really goes out to the writer of the base note and the person
    they are describing. Someone very, very close to me was and is in an
    addictive relationship, and it is quite real. 

    She is a wonderful, very attractive woman who became involved with a
    verbally abusive, domineering man about 3 years ago following her
    divorce. She rapidly became almost a slave to this man, cooking,
    cleaning, painting, paying all the bills (including loans on his
    house), paying for the house they lived, etc. She had to account for
    her every minute of time. In return, he belittled her looks and
    intelligence. She literally became almost totally unsure of herself.
    And I assure you, she is brilliant, talented person and quite
    beautiful.

    I became involved with her about 9 months ago. We fell in love, and she
    eventually left him. Almost immediately after leaving him, she became
    physically sick - almost like someone withdrawing from a drug habit.
    The only cure was returning - which she did. While it may sound self
    serving for me to say that I think I offered her a vastly different 
    and probably better alternative - and she said this often - she said
    she just had to go back to give "another chance".  

    After all this happened, I heard about addictive/co-dependent
    relationships. I would never have believed it before seeing it, but I
    do now. I am still close to this person and trying very hard, but very
    carefully to help them. The relationship has not changed, though she is
    now very afraid to tell "the world" she was "wrong".

    Some points - there's no right or wrong, just tell the person that they
    have to think of what's best for them as objectively as they can.
    Suggest counseling, but unless THEY want to go, they won't!

    And check the book, "How to Break Your Addiction to a Person" by 
    Howard Halpern, PhD. - in paperback at local bookstores.

    And to be honest, be prepared for some hell. I'm surprised at what I 
    have been through, but when you really care for someone as I am sure
    you do, it will hopefully be worth it.

    In regards to my reply .7 to this topic, I was asked to clarify
    my statement (which was confusing) of "There is a 15 year old son
    (the only `real' positive product of our relationship) that does
    contribute to the linkage - but its more than that.  He drives me
    nuts when I'm around him because he has never really grown up or
    taken responsibility - he's 37."
    
    It's the EX who drives me crazy and is 37, and its the son (15)
    who is the light in my life.
    
    As to addictive relationships, it seems they are a mixture of 
    codependency, some unexplainable link, maybe a process that both
    parties are going through, and something that the individuals involved
    have to resove with themselves - possibly with the help of counseling
    and friends.  It seems however, that you have to decide for yourself
    when you've had enough - all the advice and counseling is helpful
    - but you have to arrive at that decision on your own.
    
    I've made progress in this `different' relationship as far as being
    much more able to express opinions and be myself when I'm around
    my EX, and he also communicates more now than he did when we first
    started the relationship.  So it's not all negative - the positive
    factor is the individual growth.  But I definitely do not regret
    ending the marriage, and will eventually, I know, terminate this
    relationship to _just_ platonic friendship when I have finished
    this process I'm going through.
    
    This may not seem the smartest, best, etc. way to do things, or
    progress - but it seems that everything has its purpose.  Its trying
    to determine when a relationship is much too draining or destructive
    that's the hard part - but everyone has to make their own
    determination.
    
    tj

    Try reading the book called "Codependent No More" by M. Beatty.  It
    helped me realize what was happening to me.  I am involved in a
    codependent relationship and the previous relationship was, too. I have
    determinded that I've had enough but I'm financially dependent on this
    person, too, so I'm trying to work on that part now because I*do* want
    to get on with my life.
    
    Hope everthing work out the way *you* want it to because I know what it
    feels like-  AWFULL!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Good Luck!

    
    
    
    I firmly believe that the way you grew up has a lot to do with the way
    you act in relationships later on in life.. things that happen when
    you're a child come back to you a million times later on, and affect so
    many things about you and your personality.
    
    When I was young (10-13), I was molested by my father. After it started
    happening, and I learned to deal with the fact that I was just too
    shocked and scared to say anything about it, I started eating a lot and
    stopped doing a lot of the things I used to do, and I wanted to be
    ugly. I wanted to look unattractive to my father. I would wear clothes
    that would cover as much of me as possible, even in the summer, and I
    would not go near him, and would be repulsed when he told me he loved
    me. It has taken a long time to come to terms with those feelings, and
    I am only now (I'm 20) starting to deal with them, to be open about
    them, and to talk about them to friends.  My mother still doesn't know
    about it.
    
    But back to the point I mean to make, I believe that has a lot to do
    with the type of man I usually pursue, and the way I act in a
    relationship.  I usually go with someone I can care for, and someone
    who really depends on me, and I tend to do just a little too much, and
    expect so much affection in return, it is usually too much for the
    person. 
    
    I believe it all goes back to the fact that I lost my father, or in my
    mind I did anyway, and I look to the men in my life for the stability I
    never had, for the love and affection I needed, but never got in the
    way I should have, and I want to be in control of the relationship. So
    much in control, that I take things over... finances, housework,
    shopping, laundry, etc. . . 
    
    It also killed my trust in men, which is a problem I still face. I tend
    to distrust even the most loving caring men I've been out with.  I have
    been going out with the same man for over 2 years now, and we have
    lived together for a year and a half, and I still don't trust him, even
    though I know deep down inside that he would never do anything to hurt
    me. 
    
    I also tend to get really close to someone, so close in fact that it is
    next to impossible to pull away from them without hurting myself very
    badly, and I have gotten into the situation time and time again. And it
    just isn't easy to stop. You can know yourself very well, and knjow the
    reasons behind every mistake you make, but it just isn't so easy to
    stop making the same mistakes... 
    
    

    
    Addictive relationships are real and harrowing to say the least.
    I know I was addicted to another person.  Love gone wild. Purposeless.
    
    It was painful to break away and to stay away.  The urge to go back
    if that were possible was overwhelming.  The experience depleted
    my energies, numbed my spirit.
    
    Then I read a book called "Leaving the Enchanted Forest...The path
    to Intimacy" and it brought me  back from the brink of despair.
    
    I've read all the ACOA books and the other addiction books (Women
    who Love too Much, etc.) but none have helped me like that one.  I 
    wholeheartedly recomend it for situations dealing with Relationship 
    addictions.   It helps understand the causes and mechanics of
    addictions but most importantly also provides a solution, and
    effective way out of the situation.  It is painful but it can be
    done.
  
    By the way, there are more people in addictive relationships than
    is realized.  One of the first signs is when you give up your self in favor
    of the other person or relationship. How often do we do that?
    
    Addie
    
    Addie

    
    
    re. .12
    
    
    Could you please provide the author for "Leaving the Enchanted Forest -
    the Path to Intimacy."
    
    Thank-you
    

    It was mentioned earlier but it's worth mentioning again ... "Women
    Who Love Too Much" is a GREAT book for understanding this type of
    relationship.  My wife recently read it in hopes of understanding
    her lingering ties to her ex, evern though he put her and our son
    through living hell.  I've seen a 180 degree turnaround in a matter
    of weeks ... she couldn't put the book down !  With those walls
    broken down, it let our feelings get a LOT closer.
    
    
    				Jerry ...