Conference turris::womannotes-v2

     Meigs-
    
     Did you ever consider that it wasn't that you had "annointed him boss
    or parent," but that you were considering his feelings? When I was
    living at home, I'd say "I'm going fishing" to my mother. With my wife,
    I ask if she minds if I go fishing. That doesn't mean she is my keeper
    or anything, it just means that I value her feelings and find them
    worthy of consideration. Your mileage may vary.
    
    The Doctah

    1 - I am a World Class morning sleeper. Over the years I have developed
        tons of little efficiencies that have trimmed my morning routine
    	down to 20 minutes from bed to pulling out of the driveway just
        to get that last bit of sleep with the cats in the morning.
    
    2 - Rick reads most of the paper before pouring his coffee.  Every
        morning.  I think it's genetic.
    
    
    We'd been together for about 18 months when we got married.  Suddenly,
    I found myself getting up in the morning to 'have breakfast' with him
    [breakfast makes me nauseous...].
    
    He ignored me.  I simmered. He fidgeted.
    
    After about a week he looked out from behind the paper and asked
    me what the h*ll I thought I was doing staring at him while he
    read the paper.
    
    I grumped my way back to bed and it hit me.  "A good wife eats meals
    with her husband." um-hmm.
    
    there must have been some mind-altering drug in that communion wine...

Yes Meigs; exactly like that. It's like I'm afraid of being wrong; but how can
one be wrong about something as trivial as going out for the papers and danish?

And I get this little seed of panic whenever it's my turn to do dinner and I'm
running late. My mom _always_ ran around like a crazy woman to have dinner on
the table the minute my father sat down for it (3:45pm, or some crazy time like
that, because he was on an early shift). 
	Mez

    Yea, I have fallen into playing the "little woman" role a few times
    but then---sanity rears it's beautiful head. It takes time.
    
    Kate
    

    Things like car repairs and heavy-duty driveway shoveling and other
    "manly" tasks ;-) seem to bring out the "little woman" in me.  I
    am perfectly able to do these things, but when my car broke down
    in the DEC parking lot last week, I was FUMING that my husband couldn't
    be reached to come and make things all better for me.  It is to
    laugh...
    
                             ...Lisa V...
    

    
    A freind of mine told me that she and her husband had lived together
    for more than a year before they got married but that when they
    got married she turned into her mother and he turned into his father...
    Amazing what conditioning can do!  Anyway they had some real rough
    times because, as she put it, her mother and his father wouldn't
    have liked each other at all.

     
.0>  Around 11 o'clock at night, I asked my husband if he wanted to
.0>  go out for a hamburger.  He was tied up with a project and didn't
.0>  want to go. So I asked him:

.0>  "Is it OK with you if I go out and get a hamburger?"

.1>                                                           When I was
.1>  living at home, I'd say "I'm going fishing" to my mother. With my wife,
.1>  I ask if she minds if I go fishing. That doesn't mean she is my keeper
.1>  or anything, it just means that I value her feelings and find them
.1>  worthy of consideration. 
    
 Meigs and Mark, what happened after you asked so politely and they said
 'no'?

 I know, when I was married (at various times), my ex-wives would go through
 the formalities of asking questions like these.

 If, however, I said, "Honey, I'd rather you didn't", they'd say "F_ck you,
 you're not my keeper, I'm going out".

 I always wondered why they bothered to ask. :-)

   Alan

Alan, I think that's where the term 'loonies' for this behavior comes from!
	Mez

> Meigs and Mark, what happened after you asked so politely and they said
> 'no'?
    
    Well, 99% of the time, she has said yes. The other 1% of the time, she
    hasn't said no, rather, she has said something like "I thought you were
    goign to do xxx." (Where xxx was something I was supposed to do like
    watch the baby or wash the dishes or whatever). She doesn't say "no"
    to deny me the opportunity. When she does say no, it's for a good
    reason.
    
    The Doctah

Since we have been married we have found that in some ways we follow our
families "role" models. I do most of the cooking and "kitchen stuff", he
does most of the car and house repair "stuff". This is ok when we are
consious of it, and agree that those are the jobs we prefer - which is
usually the case. But now and then one of says hey - I don't want to
do this and then we negotiate.

Sometimes the jobs we prefer don't follow the typical models - ie my
husband doesn't mind doing laundry and I hate it - and so he usually
does it.

Where I start getting the "marriage loonies" is not so much in my
relationship but in finding myself trying to live up to the "perfect
wife" image for my mother-in-law. It shouldn't matter what she thinks
but every now and then I find myself playing up the wifey role. 

On asking permission - 

There is a difference between asking "Can I go?" and "I am going to do this -
is that ok with you?". In the first case I see it as permission - and in the
other I see it as stating intention but then checking on feelings. If the
answer is No in the second case then there is room for negotiation. "Why
isn't it ok, how can we compromise because I really want to do this etc."

I definetly feel that checking on feelings is important because what I do
may affect my husband and vice versa. We do not lead completely separate
lives. On the other hand a situation where one person is always asking
permission like to a parent - then that is not too great. 

I got the feeling from the base note that the loony part was asking
permission not checking on feelings.

Muggsie

.-1
> I got the feeling from the base note that the loony part was asking
> permission not checking on feelings.

Yes, that's exactly what happened. I was asking for permission, not
being polite or checking anything.  

> ... a situation where one person is always asking
> permission like to a parent - then that is not too great. 

Yes ... and what do you make of the phrase "my husband/wife doesn't
let me do that."  I always feel uncomfortable when I hear that. It's
the wording.  For instance, "Ralph really doesn't like me to do that"
strikes me as OK, one of life's compromises. But "doesn't let me"
seems a surrender of adulthood. "Hold my hand. I'm only 40 and don't
cross the street by myself yet."
                                         Meigs

< Yes ... and what do you make of the phrase "my husband/wife doesn't
< let me do that."  

I always get a lump at the pit of my stomach when I hear someone say that.

I had a relationship like that with my first boyfriend, and he literally
had a list of things I wasn't "allowed" to do. It was an extremely 
unhealthy relationship which luckily I learned from.

In  my mind marriage doesn't change the fact that I am in control of my
life and  make my own decisions. I often factor in my husbands feelings
or opinions but the word "let me" is not part of our relationship.

My sister-in-law often talks about her husband not letting her do something.
It bothers me a lot. Recently she talked about her 3 yr old daughter 
"not letting" her do something. I just cringed - because she literally
does not feel she is in control of her life - she is getting permission
from both her husband and her children.

Muggsie

    
    Once, [millions of years ago it seems] my Mom asked me "Will Nils
    let you do that?..." My reply..."'Scuse me? LET? **LET??**..."
    [chuckle] Nils never knew why he got yelled at later...just shrugged
    it off to insanity on my part [a normal state of mind with me...]
    
    And (.5) Oh you made me laugh! Just the other week...I flew in from
    Atlanta to find my van with frozen brake cables at a friends house.
    I had my poor husband drive 100+ miles to get me, then go there,
    crawl under the van for 5 minutes,,,so I could drive it home 100+
    miles. Now, the guy who dropped me at the van...he didn't know brake
    cables from raspberry leaves...[but *I* do...]...I *could* have
    crawled under that van...and at least tried to release the cables,
    but no, 300+ family driving miles was a better idea...[sigh]
    
    Guilty! [how embarassing...]
    
    Melinda

    has anybody come up with a cure for these marriage loonies???
    I get a sporadic attack of them myself...
    
    F.
    

	I don't think you have to be married to have a case of the
	"loonies".  Last year (or it may have been two years ago) 
	I left work, it was cold, rainy November and my car wasn't
	quite right.  Well, 7 miles later it dawned on me that my
	right front tire was going flat (rapidly).  I was on the
	part of Rte 495 between Rte 111 (where the Sheraton Boxboro
	is) and Rte 2.  The nearest 'safe' stoping spot was in 
	Littleton and the nearest open gas station was the Mobile
	next to LKG, so I drove the remaining 4 miles to LKG - the
	tire was really gone by then went in the LKG called Mark
	to come "save" me.  He was in Spitbrook and came down and
	changed the tire and "made it all better".  To this day
	I do not understand why I didn't just do it myself.  I hate
	it when I do that but I seem to get stuck calling for help
	even when I am fully capable to doing the task myself.

	BTW - the 'loonieness' is somewhat rare for me but it does
	happen.
    
	_peggy

		(-)
		 |
			I sometimes use "Mark, won't let me do x"
			in front of him and he just about dies
			since he feels that 'asking permission'
			is something I never do, it is easier
			to ask forgiveness.

    re: .alot
    
    Itsn't strange how the things we do seem to feel so unique, until we
    hear from others who do (done) the same sort of things ??
    
    Why ? Part of 'asking permission' really has its best intention in
    caring and the asking is really just so much protocol. Instead of
    having our 'otther 1/2' wondering where we are going, we already know
    since they took the trouble to 'ask' us. 
    
    The problem comes in when: "When we think we are/need to ask
    permission, then we DO have a problem. 
    
    Part is from 'Self actualized Autonomy'. Yes, we do (some of us) give
    up some things when we 'make a permanent legalized bond' which
    symbolizes our internal feelings. 
    
    Part comes from ignorance. Ignorance from 'i don't know how to ask the
    question, so i'll assume an answer and act as though the answer is
    true'. 
    
    Part is that 'the other one' doesn't possess all the strenghts that we
    own, so we may tend to 'act lower' than our special skills ability, so
    that our 'PSO' (Permanent SO ?) can do those activities (skills) with
    us. 
    
    How many more parts there are, i don't really know. Basically, as water
    tends to seek its own level (this is false), so then do people tend to
    'equalize' themselves with the persons to whom they have become
    attached. This is, of course, one of the problems with the archaic
    notion of 'fidelity'. Being 'faithful' tends to rule out 'conflicting
    or benficial' add-on relationships that can actually ehance ones own
    life, intead of watching it get 'stifled' in the hum-drum of 'ordinary
    living'.