Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    Post Partum Depression is well documented and accepted by the
    scientific community. It is also experienced by a large number of women
    who are able to project their own feelings to a mother who loses
    control and kills her child. For these reasons, PPD seems to many to be
    an acceptable excuse [or a reason for reduced criminality].
    
    Pedophilia is undoubtedly a sickness, but the level of control exerted
    by the man is still subject to debate. Far fewer men suffer from this
    illness than women suffer from PPD, thus it is a more difficult gap to
    bridge since few people have personal experiences with which to
    identify with the perpetrator. Since the molestation and murder of an
    infant is such a heinous crime, many people simply look for justice in
    these cases.
    
    In my opinion, people who murder ought to be punished accordingly. I
    feel that despite the question of control, the end result must be dealt
    with. 
    
    The Doctah

    Did this talk show cite specific cases of women killing their children
    due to Post-Partum Depression and "hormones" being used as a defense?
    Maybe I'm just not up on current events, but I haven't heard this
    before.  
    
    Also, can you explain a bit more what you mean by "hormones" being
    used as a basis for prosecution against a man who rapes/kills a
    child?  (BTW, these are sincere questions, not antagonism -- I'm
    just not sure I understand your question.)
    
                             ...Lisa V...

    The talk show didn't go into specifics about "hormones" and there
    were no experts available (it just came up in the course of
    discussion.) I believe that "hormones" were used as more of a general
    term for "pschycological problem" and the question was, if both
    men and women have these feelings that lead to violence, why are
    they treated differently? 
    
    I don't know or understand these feelings, but just as I have no
    right to say to women - "you can control those feelings" I don't
    see why a man (who is sick) is assumed to have the power to control
    them. I think it's a case of poeple thinking that a man who acts
    in this manner is just "dirty" or "a sicko" rathar than having a
    serious mental problem as women do with PPD.
    
    I am leaning toward agreeing with .1, especially with societies
    knowledge of PPD today... If you know you might have the problem (if
    you can get pregnant - you might have the problem) then at the earliest
    signs you should get help. Same for a man with a problem. If you
    ignore it, and/or let it fester, something undesireable might be
    the result. And at that point, if it's murder for a man it should
    be considered murder for a woman.
                                            

    A few months ago, I saw a segment on a news show about a woman who
    had murdered her child and the defense had been PPD.  I forget what
    she had done to the baby but it was pretty horrible.  Anyway, she
    had wound up spending something like 6 months or so in prison and
    then let go.  I remember that at the time it seemed sickening to
    me that someone who had actually murdered her baby had gotten away
    with it, really, and was walking around free in society as though
    she had never done anything wrong.  PPD doesn't seem like enough
    of an excuse to me either.  The baby is still dead.  If I ever did
    anything that horrible to my own child I wouldn't want to be walking
    around free.  I'd rather be dead myself.  For once, I actually agree
    with the doctah.  Amazing.
    
    Lorna
     

>For once, I actually agree
>    with the doctah.  Amazing.                
    
    And downright scary! :-)
    
    Oh no- it's the end of the world! And I'm working! Ahhhhhhhh! :-)
    
    The Doctah

    i'd like to know how big a problem we're talking about. how many
    women murder their children (and claim PPD as a defense)? one? how
    many men have sex with or murder children?
    
    liz

    I'm not sure I'm following your comparison, .0.
                                 
    I believe the defense in PPD cases is along the lines of: She (the
    defendant) was not in control because she had temporary psychological 
    problems or "episodes" caused by a _physiological_ problem.  The 
    physiological problem is a gross hormonal imbalance related to the
    process of pregnancy and childbirth.                
                                                        
    Are you saying that men who commit acts of sexual assault on children 
    do so because they suffer from a hormonal imbalance?  I'm not aware of 
    that being used as a defense strategy.  If you know of a case where
    that was the defense, maybe you could share it with us.
    
    -Tracy
    

    I think with PPD, the epression itself is that severe in very few
    cases - tenths of a percent, I read in a magazine a while ago (I'll
    try to dig up the article if I haven't thrown it out et).  Also,
    those who do suffer post-partum depression are offered hormones
    or medicines of some sort to alleviate the symptoms they do notice,
    so the likelihood of a woman suddenly becoming overwhelmed by hormones
    is very slim (hence the small percentage).  Most doctors are on
    the lookout for potential problems, so with proper medication and
    checkups this is rarely a problem.
    
    If it can't be helped, it can't be helped.  I wouldn't say it's
    a reason to get off scot-free for murder, but I do believe it's
    a viable reason (like pleading temporary insanity).  However, think
    about how the mother must feel?  Awful, I'd guess.
    
    My suggestion would be to verify that it WAS post-partum depression
    (medical tests could verify this).  And then insist that (after
    the punishment is served) the woman may not have children again
    unless under the CLOSE supervision of doctors, particularly during
    the period post-partum depression could occur (like incarceration
    in the hospital for this period, or something, and mandatory doses
    of whatever medications alleviate PPD), so it doesn't happen again.
    
    -Jody
    

>    but I do believe it's
>    a viable reason (like pleading temporary insanity).

    I think temporary insanity is a contrived plea and holds merit in a
    minute fraction of all cases where it is employed.
    
>    My suggestion would be to verify that it WAS post-partum depression
>    (medical tests could verify this).  And then insist that (after
>    the punishment is served) the woman may not have children again
>    unless under the CLOSE supervision of doctors, particularly during
>    the period post-partum depression could occur (like incarceration
>    in the hospital for this period, or something, and mandatory doses
>    of whatever medications alleviate PPD), so it doesn't happen again.
    
    That's a very dangerous precedent. Allowing the government to influence
    a woman's right to procreate. I daresay you'd find stiff opposition
    from the ACLU if you tried to enforce a woman not having children
    again. (even though that seems most logical)
    
    The Doctah

    I am not for influencing a woman's right to procreate or not, I
    am simply for taking the minute amount of women who have killed
    their own infant under the influence of PPD to be closely monitored
    and aided if they are pregnant again and decide to carry the child
    to term.  PPD must be frightening enough that some of them may not
    want to deal with it again, though....
    
    -Jody
    

    Well, Jody, I guess this raises a valid point. If a woman kills her
    child while suffering from PPD, what is society supposed to do? If she
    spends the rest of her life in jail, then I guess there's no moral
    dilemma. If she is acquitted under the premise that she was not in
    control of herself at the time, does the government have the right to
    insist that she be sterilized? If not, does the government have the
    right to insist that she be incarcerated after the birth until post
    partum becomes less of a possibility? What if it happens a second time?
    Where do we draw the line?
    
    The Doctah

There is a difference between a woman in this situation being pregnant
and carrying the child to term - and then keeping the child. I think it
a very sticky issue to have the state either sterelize her or some other
way prevent her pregnancy. 

On the other hand once the child is born the state can make the welfare of
that child the priority and so take the child away from the mother if she
is determined to be unfit. 

Of course taking away the child may add to the depression. And it does not
prevent the physiological aspects of PPD, and therefore some other act
of violence due to the psycological affects of PPD

Muggsie

    After the birth of my 4th child I was diagnosed as having a mild
    form [it sure didn't seem mild to *me* at the time] of Post Partum
    Depression which was treated with drugs and therapy.  I remained
    depressed for almost 2 years.  During this period of time, it wasn't
    my child I wanted to kill but myself.   In fact, I became overly
    possessive and excessively careful of all my children during this
    period.
    
    I have to admit that now, 28 years later, I haven't very much memory
    of it all.
    
    But had I murdered my child, I have a strong feeling that even though
    I might have been in some terrible rage, I would have still known
    that what I was doing was wrong.  Even at the worst period, I did
    not feel that I was -- nor did my doctor or my husband -- insane.
    I just was literally in a "pit of despair" but *never* unaware of
    what was occurring.
    
    Having been privy to information dealing with rape cases, I have
    known of 2 cases in particular where the rapist pled temporary insanity
    and was institutionalized, supposedly rehabilitated into sanity
    [does that make sense?] and set free.  They raped again within 6
    months.  Both did time the 2nd time around.
    
    I'm not much on the insanity plea regardless of who, circumstances,
    conditions, whatever.  Old hard-nose here, I'm afraid.  
    
    M

    I can't remember or substantiate details, but I have also heard
    of hormonal imbalances/abnormalities or something possibly playing
    a part in some rapists.  One significant difference is that PPD
    is triggered by a specific event (birth) and is either self-limiting
    or treatable/curable.  The hormonal situation with the male is one
    that (unless it _is_ treateable/curable?) is unpredictable in when
    it occurs.
    
    I'm not offering this as an argument pro or con
    punishment/non-punishment for either case.
    
    Nancy

    I saw a program about a year ago on this same thing.  They interviewed
    three women who had killed their children and had PPD.  One woman
    explained her experience and since it was so off the wall I remember
    it quite well.  
    
    She has one daughter about 4 years old.  She never had PPD and really
    didn't know much about it.  With her second child she started having
    visions, she thought someone was telling her that her baby was the
    devil.  For weeks she said she fought this vision until she was
    compelled to kill her baby.  It wasn't until after this happened that
    they realized this woman had PPD.  She was sentenced to jail with
    therapy.  When she was finally well enough to realize what she had
    done, she went into depression again wanting to kill herself.  After a
    year, she was let out.  She now lives with her husband, 4 year old
    daughter and a 1 year old son.  After the birth or her third child she
    was monitored and treated for PPD. She still has a hard time living
    with what she has done. 
    
    One other woman I remember that had PPD, had an infant who was ill
    with a cold or infection.  The baby was constantly crying.  She
    said she didn't realize what she was doing but she had to stop the
    crying before she went insane.  She also killed her baby.  I'm not
    sure where it stands now in the courts as far as punishment.
    
    Suzanne                

    re: .12 
    
>    If a woman kills her child while suffering from PPD, what is
>    society supposed to do? If she spends the rest of her life in jail,
>    then I guess there's no moral dilemma.
    
    I doubt that would be the punishment....
    
>    If she is acquitted under the premise that she was not in
>    control of herself at the time, does the government have the right to
>    insist that she be sterilized? 
    
    I doubt she would be totally acquitted without some sort of agreement
    or treatment.  I think she would be in such great pain that she
    might never wish to have children again, or would insist on being
    monitored/treated for PPD if she did decide.  I don't think forced
    sterilization would be necessary.
    
>    If not, does the government have the right to insist that she be
>    incarcerated after the birth until post partum becomes less of a
>    possibility? 
 
    I doubt she would need to be forcefully incarcerated.  I think the
    horror at what had happened before would make her want to ensure
    this baby lived.
       
    I hate playing "what-if" games with this small a percentage of the
    population.  And I dislike the intimation that comes across by
    discussing only the darker side of an issue.  Maybe we could focus
    more on alleviation of PPD, or solutions and peace women have sought
    after killing their own children while in the throes of PPD.
    
    -Jody
    

I was out visiting my aunt once with my mother. We met an indirect relative
of my aunts who was a very nice, warm, interesting woman.

After we left my mom told me the following story about her. Apparently many
years ago (20 or more) she was married and had a small child. For some
reason she became very religious in the extreme. Her husband woke up one
night with her holding a knife at his throat. She had killed thier baby 
because God told her to do it to save him from the world, and was about
to kill her husband as well. Well he stopped her. The whole family and
town was shocked.

She ended up getting psychiatric treatment. (I am not sure what happened to
her husband but I assume he left her). She is now, twenty years later, fine
and leading a good life. My mom said one of the rules on her release was
that she could not take a job involving children.

I felt sad hearing that story, and of course have never asked her about it,
so don't know how she feels.

This topic has made me wonder if she was affected by PPD. I am sure in those
days there was not that much information about it, and people didn't
talk about it.

>    I doubt she would be totally acquitted without some sort of agreement
>    or treatment.  I think she would be in such great pain that she
>    might never wish to have children again, or would insist on being
>    monitored/treated for PPD if she did decide.  I don't think forced
>    sterilization would be necessary.
    
    What you say would probably be true in 90% of the cases. It's the other
    ten percent of the cases where the moral problems lie.
    
>    I hate playing "what-if" games with this small a percentage of the
>    population.  And I dislike the intimation that comes across by
>    discussing only the darker side of an issue. 
    
    I'm sorry, but somebody has to play the "what-if games." It's generally
    the small percentages of the population that have a big effect on the
    rest of the population, especially when exploited by the media. Take
    the killing of school children in California, for example. Only one
    madman- clearly a small segment of the population. Yet his actions have
    been totally blown out of proportion by the media to the point where
    legislation is being drawn that affects each and every one of us.
    
    While the "darker side" of the issue brings us little in the way of
    warm fuzzies, thinking about the possibilities and implications of
    things must be done. You don't like to play what-if games. But that is
    precisely what must be done by our legislators.
    
    Let's say nobody wants to do anything about this problem. An incident
    happens. A woman kills her child due to PPD. She is released after
    submitting to psychological testing, which eventually pronounces her
    fit (but urges that she be monitored if she should ever give birth
    again.) She moves to another state to escape her notoriety. She gives
    birth again, and initially is monitored. Eventually, things get out of
    control, and it happens again. The news media goes absolutely wild. All
    editors are working overtime to get their message out that SOMETHING,
    ANYTHING must be done to "prevent this tragedy from ever happening
    again." Legislators seize the opportunity to get some much needed
    camrea-time, and hastily begin piecing some legislation to forcefully
    sterilize any woman who kills a child due to PPD. Because no one was
    willing to "play what-if games," legislation is ramrodded through which
    in effect abridges rights granted by the  constitution ( a woman's
    right to control her own reproduction). Is this the scenario you
    prefer?
    
    The Doctah 

    FWIW, they've known about PPD for quite awhile - my mother was
    diagnosed with it after I was born.  She was pretty well unavailable
    to me for the first 5 years of my life.  She tells me that she just
    didn't care about anything much then, and was suicidal much of the
    time.  At that time, all they had to do for it was the drugs that
    were available for other forms of depression.  She took them, but
    from the sound of it they didn't do much.  In her case the "cure"
    was having my little brother.  Things turned out normally with him.
    
    It's probably an extremely small number of women who have PPD badly
    enough to kill a child, then go through treatment and incarceration,
    and treatment for the feelings that come up when she realizes what
    she's done, then go on to try having more children, and get PPD
    *again*, refuse treatment, and badly enough again to kill the second
    child.  In those small numbers of cases, I would say to throw the full
    force of the murder laws at her - the first time she may not have known
    about PPD and what it can do, but the second time she should have known
    to get treatment and physically get away from the baby until things
    settle down.
    
    I do think that sterilization should be recommended to women that
    have murdered their baby under the effects of PPD - both for her
    own fears and the real possibility that she could do it again. 
    Recommended, but not forced.
    
    Elizabeth 

    re: .19
    
    I thought the questions over.  I responded to the questions.  I played
    what-if and those were my answers.  I don't wish to play what-if
    anymore.  You can say what you wish, think what you wish, and debate
    what you wish.  I'd rather focus my energies on what we hear within
    the file that has actually occurred, and what can be done about it 
    in a positive way.  I am not ignoring the rest of the issue, I
    acknowledge its presence, I simply don't wish to focus my time and
    energies on it.
    
    -Jody

   Saved from 'being written land' by moderator 
    
              <<< RANGER::$2$DJA6:[NOTES$LIBRARY]WOMANNOTES-V2.NOTE;1 >>>
                        -< Topics of Interest to Women >-
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Note 590.21                    PPD Murder or not?                       21 of 22
CPO02::MAHONEY "ANA MAHONEY DTN 223-4189"             0 lines  11-MAY-1989 13:13
                         -< PPD as excuse for murder >-
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    As a mother of three children I can say that I did have a bit of
    that post partun depresion but it was just THAT, post partum
    depression...a wish to cry and not knowing why but NEVER, NEVER
    ever heard of murder impulses on our own children?  I am afraid
    that society values, personal values are degrading to dangerously
    low levels...what happened to those "motherhood instints" those
    in which a MOTHER could do ANYTHING, including DYING, for her joung?
    A mother who kills her own son cannot be called a mother, but a
    woman that give birth as a result of mating.

    
    I agree with .15 that it is possible some of the male rapiest
    had inbalance of hormon.  This will be hard to proof but not
    a good execuse. 

    Carol, you ARE NOT alone.  Like you I had my moments -- with both my
    infants -- of borderline infanticide.  Whenever I hear or read about
    a mother who has crossed that border, I lend her my mental sympathy
    and support and think, "There, but for the grace of [whatever power,
    internal or external, that intervened] go I."
    
    Karen

    Carol
    
    May I second what Karen wrote, you are not alone. I have also had
    my times when I thought terrible thoughts when short on sleep and
    long on a crying child. This is one thing I think we have lost in
    modern day America...the support of family for young mothers.
    (Especially when you think that new mothers were often far younger
    than today.) I think that the loss of closeness to grandmothers
    aunts etc has left a void in the life of new mothers. I think that
    pregnant women should try and find a support group to help them
    in these bad moments..I don't think nature 'plannned' for women
    to be so isolated with new babies...I kinda think we would have
    died out first! :-} tongue only slightly in cheek.
    
    hugs from a friend
    
    Bonnie

    RE .25
    I, too, have gone through the feelings you had -- and you expressed it
    much better than I could have. Not having been around infants, I was
    very unprepared for the crying and sleepless nights. Ryan also went
    through a period of being a fussy nurser which frustrated me to no end.
    The night I just dropped him on the middle of my double bed and
    screamed at him made me realize how vulnerable we are.  I would tiptoe
    in and stand next to his crib apologizing...
    
    I consider myself a fairly sane person -- going through the stress and
    lack of confidence as a new mother made me understand a little better
    how someone with a shakier mental foundation could murder their infant. 
    
    Thanks for sharing, and for giving me the impetus to do the same.
    --Lynn
    

    Well, I'm another who stood at the cribside and screamed at her
    crying infant, wondering if I was going crazy.  I don't think anyone
    who hasn't been there can understand what the long-term sleep
    deprivation means to a new mother.
    
    Support structures need to be carefully chosen.  My sister had this
    same problem and mentioned it at her LaLeche League meeting -- next
    thing she knew the child welfare folks were on her doorstep and 
    stayed 'investigating' the family for over 6 months!  I had
    praised her for leaving the screaming baby alone in the crib and
    calling me when it got to be too much.
    
    Alison