Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    I have not read the following in-depth, but they sounded like they
    might contain helpful information....
    
    Womannotes-V2 (this file)
    371 - Handling a Divorce
    380 - Demystifying Divorce
    
    QUARK::Human_relations
    25 - Divorce - the Other Side of Marriage
    474 - Massachusetts Divorce Laws
    567 - Stunned and Now Getting a Divorce
    
    TAMARA::Mennotes (which will be moving to QUARK:: soon)
    47 - Divorce, Rights and Attorneys
    
    
    -Jody
    
    

    
    I know a little of what you feel, and really feel bad that you have
    to go through such a hard time.
    
    I have been involved for a little over 2 years with a man, and although
    it's not as long as you and we're not married, I've been through
    a touch of the same things.  It's been a hard couple of years
    financially and emotionally. We started living together almost 2
    years ago, and that is where our problems began. Little things would
    add up inside each of us and we'd fight about one thing while really
    being mad about a zillion other little things that had accumulated.
    Finally it got to the point that he told me he didn't love me anymore.
    He didn't feel the trust he used to feel in me anymore. He was bored
    with me. And basically he just didn't want to be there with me anymore.
    
    But, we had signed a joint lease in our apartment, so we were stuck
    until the lease is up.  It took a little while for me to figure
    him out, but after I gave him a little breathing room to think I
    started realizing how he really felt. He really loved me, and trusted
    me, and wasn't bored of me. He was bored with himself, restless,
    and wanted to move on but felt like something was holding him back.
    He isn't sure where he wants to go in life, and is going through
    a tough time and little things that might have only bothered hi
    a little before bother him a lot now. 
    
    Once I figured this out, things started getting better, because
    I took his outbursts as him just letting out a little of the anger
    he felt for himself and not aimed at me personally. 
    
    We still have our problems, though, and some of them I don't think
    we'll ever work through, and we still are on shaky ground. Hopefully
    we can work things out before the lease is up. Some days I think
    we will, others I know we will, and others I wonder why we are even
    waiting that long to split up... we are both young, and I guess
    that causes a lot of our problem ... 
    
    I want you to know that you're not alone out there. A lot of women
    hurt for things they didn't really do, and the only way to work
    through them is to realize that you are not to blame and figure
    out what about that man is what is causing the problem...
    
    

    Since you  ask  about  the  house and housemate, I can give you my
    experiences  on those. Houses are a lot of work, but you know that
    already,  and  you're starting to know how this one works. A house
    is  also  a  major source of stability. You own it, and (to me) it
    feels much more permanent than renting. You seem to want some sort
    of stability now, and a house may give you that.

    Housemates have  their  ups  and  downs. The best living situation
    I've had was six of us sharing a house, and eating dinner together
    every  night,  but going our seperate ways most of the rest of the
    time. Housemates can go a long way towards paying the mortgage and
    splitting  the utilities can be a big help in the winter. They can
    also  make  a  house  seem  much less empty and lonely. When I was
    living  alone while going to the wrong grad school, coming home to
    the  empty house after a bad day made things worse. Somehow having
    someone  else  in the house, even if I didn't talk to him, helped.
    Several  times  housemates have become good friends, but don't bet
    on that happening.  

    The down  side  of  housemates  is pretty straight forward. Things
    aren't  where  you put them. Jobs don't get done the way you would
    have  done  them  (but  the job was done, and you didn't do it, so
    that's  still  something),  and  you maybe somewhat constrained by
    other  people's  presence.  When  budgeting, you have to take into
    account  that  you  may have a vacancy for a while if you're picky
    about  choosing  your  housemates  (and  you  should  be), so only
    consider 70% or so of the rent in your budget.

    It seems  that  a  lot of women want to live with other women, and
    men  seem  to  care less about the sex of their housemates, so you
    should  have  an  easier  time finding housemates because you're a
    woman.

    Good Luck.

--David

    You're not alone!  Too many of us have been through the shock, the
    lostness, the monetary problems, the feelings of betrayal, etc.
    You're stronger than you think!
    
    In my case, I had paid the down payment on the house and was paying the
    mortgage, so there was no question about the house in my mind (it is
    also three blocks from here - I still own the same car I had then,
    which is now ten years old - it is even running at this moment; I found
    a good mechanic, finally - convenient when the car isn't working).
    I did manage to get my ex- to go with me to a counselor, but he pretty
    much walked in there, announced that he was moving out and moving in
    with a girlfriend of his, and walked out - a waste of money which I
    ended up paying for.  He also cleaned out my entire bank account to buy
    new furniture for her (my house was furnished with furniture that my
    parents didn't think was worth moving or hauling to the dump when my
    father took a transfer, right before my first marriage) - I trusted him
    and did not immediately close my direct-deposit bank account until it
    was too late.  Luckily, he could not get at my DCU savings account, so
    the day my friends drove me into Boston for the divorces hearing, I had
    about $257 in the world.  I ended up not getting a housemate, and
    things were pretty tight for a while, but I survived (with a lot of
    help from my cats, and my friends).  Eventually, I remarried - in fact,
    I married the kind person who drove me into Boston that day - about 2
    1/2 years later.  (My ex- married the girl the day after the divorce was
    final, and she divorced him four months later!)  (Boy, am I ever better
    off now! - but that's a separate story...)
    
    
    Don't be afraid to ask your friends for help - even if all you need is
    a sympathetic listener.  Friends are also great if you need help doing
    something like painting, stripping wallpaper, taking your car to the
    mechanic, re-arranging the furniture, and so on.  Most people would
    love to show their support and concern for you, but aren't sure how.
    
    /Charlotte
    /Charlotte

      When ray told me he wanted a divorce I did finally get him to go
      to the EAP counselor. We both went alone and then together. In the
      meeting together he just announced "I don't care enough to bother
      with trying to fix this" and walked out. I moved out with my
      clothes, my pets and my personal belongings. I wanted nothing to
      do with the house we'd bought together. Technically we are still
      married and the house is on my VA loan but I haven't been there
      since I moved out and we rarely see each other.

      I personally couldn't deal with having to take care of a house. I
      could barely take care of myself. The last thing I wanted was to feel
      trapped in a home I couldn't sell (the market here is very bad).
      I still can't bring myself to do anything about getting a divorce
      even though I know we won't ever get back together. I suppose he
      uses still being married as a convienent excuse to not have to
      marry his girlfriend. He never mentions getting a real divorce
      either. sigh...one of these days I'll grow up and deal with this.
      liesl

    Liesl, you need a lawyer!
    
    I've never met you, but I already know that you deserve better than
    that!
    
    
    /Charlotte (I didn't mean to sign my last response twice - text editor
    did it for me somehow...)
    
    PS - Since I had paid for my house (both down payment and the mortgage
    payments, since D. was not what you might call "responsible"), and did
    nearly all the work of keeping it from falling apart, there was no
    question in my mind whose house it was.  I still live in it.  D.'s
    second wife actually got alimony out of him for a few years, I think
    three, even though they were only married for a real short time...I
    certainly had no intention of asking for that myself; I paid most of
    his expenses anyhow since he was not very responsible financially -
    when he moved out he had to ask me how to WRITE A CHECK!  And he
    appealed to me the next year, on April 15th no less, to please help him
    do his taxes, since he didn't know how since I had always done them.
    I even did them for him - making sure that several friends just
    "happened" to be doing some work in the basement that night (actually I
    called them and got them to come over as soon as I told D. I would help
    him out, so they got there only just before he did), in case WW III
    managed to get started (it didn't).  That was after the divorce was
    final, and I didn't see any reason to not be nicer than he was (which
    wasn't real hard to do anyhow).
    
    The whole thing still angers me a lot, though, even though it has been
    a lot of years now - as you can no doubt tell! 
    

    This may strike you as the silliest response you have ever read,
    but I suggest writing out a long list concerning the house.
    
    The list would include the cost: taxes, house ins. + mortgage.
    What needed repairing *now* [since some things are cosmetic, forget
    them until later--what has to be done to keep further damage away
    is the major consideration at this point] and what $$ estimates
    you can make for it. (call someone/anyone who might help on that)
    
    Negatives/positives of keeping house: distance from work, possible
    slack periods for $$.   One thing to avoid *if possible* and that
    is to deal with list on emotional level.  Be hard/tough/sensible.
    
    One smart thing might be to literally call a good real estate agent
    for an estimate on the house--as is--and what they think should
    be done to bring it into $$ range you might consider if needed to
    be sold.
    
   
    David gave some good comments on housemates vs. going it alone.
    
    I own my home.  I still have to support it: upkeep, taxes, ins. and
    I could not do it on my $$ alone if I had a mortgage.  I recognize
    that we are not in same position, but all the above is still valid,
    and I did much of the same shortly after my husband's death when
    I thought about selling and moving elsewhere.  
    
    And above all: make sure you have the best darn lawyer you can find,
    one who will fight for you and what you need to get you back onto
    a $$ level.    

    On the emotional side, the refusal to discuss the "whys" [if you
    are like me in the least] might be the hardest thing to deal with.
    Getting closure at the end of a marriage/relationship seems to be
    something men in particular aren't much interested in.  They think
    that if they say "I want out" then you should roll over and kick
    your feet in the air and play dead.
    
    Good luck.  And I am one da*n good painter...just in case you ever
    have a painting party.  But I once wallpapered my own hand under
    a sheet, so don't think of me when you need help there.
    
    M

    
    
    
    Hi,
    
    if the house has more than one bedroom i would say find some roommates
    that you can trust and be comfortable with so they can help with
    the things that are needed.
    a.g

    Denise, this is such a painful position to be in, and the emotional
    turmoil makes it a really difficult time to make good decisions.  I was
    in a similar situation about 2 years ago, when my spouse also suddenly
    decided he wanted "out".  We did reconcile after individual therapy
    (each) and therapy as a couple.  However, during the time that we
    were separated and heading toward divorce, I received some very
    good advice from my lawyer, and I hope that what she told me can
    help you.
    
    Her opinion was that if you are not sure that you can maintain the
    house by yourself, don't keep it.  Roommates are chancy, and if
    there's any major repair work to be done, they can just as easily
    move out as help contribute toward it.  There is also a lot of
    "emotional baggage" tied up in the house you lived in during your
    marriage, which may be difficult to deal with.
    
    The lawyer's advice was that if the house is in both names (which
    I'm assuming yours is), sell it and split the equity.  Invest your
    portion of the equity into a short-term CD and rent a cheap apartment
    that meets your minimum requirements for a few months.  This will
    give you some time to really think about what's best for you --
    do you want to own a home?  a condo?  rent?  move out of this area
    altogether?  This is a major decision that's hard to make if you're
    feeling pressured to make it immediately.
    
    Because we reconciled, I never actually had to follow through on
    this advice, but it seemed to make good sense to me and was what
    I planned to do.  It's something to consider.  Good luck, and let
    us know how things work out for you.  One thing I learned during
    my situation was -- you're stronger than you think!
    
                             ...Lisa V...               
    
    

    I'm in a very similar situation right now. Reading in this
    notesfile how other women got through difficult situations has
    helped me a lot during the past months. (Believe it or not, even
    wearing the =wn= t-shirt has helped :-) ) Maybe this reply adds to
    some help for another one and especially the author of .0.

    Last December my husband, after 4� years of marriage, suddenly
    told me that he had a new girlfriend and wanted to move out. I
    talked him into going to a councelor, but there he only stated the
    fact that he was leaving and she should prevent me from committing
    suicide (which was quite possible during the first shock). He
    moved finally out the day after Christmas.

    We had just bought the house in March from my family. It had been
    my grandmother's house and all my relatives were really happy to
    keep it in our family, therefore we got it under very reasonable
    conditions. The legal ownership is half and half for me and my
    husband. He's still paying half of the mortgage, but all other
    costs are with me. And, as all my income went into a shared
    account until December, I started in January with only a little
    more than nothing.

    My first thought was to move out myself, because I couldn't
    imagine to live there alone, we had just put in so much work, time
    and money. Then he started to put pressure on me, because he
    wanted to have the house for himself. At some point I realized
    that I didn't want to give up what I considered 'my home' and
    started to fight for. This decision was strongly supported by my
    parents-in-law and mainly by my parents, who also offered
    financial help, if it should become necessary.

    I looked for a housemate and luckily found someone quite fast.
    This has several benefits for me. First of all the financial side,
    but also the feeling of not being alone, occasional talk and, very
    important for me, he is looking after my pets when I'm on business
    travel, long weekends etc.

    My next steps are to come to a final agreement over all common
    belongings, and have him remove all his stuff from the house. Then
    I'll have to sit down with my parents and my lawyer and we will
    decide on a offer for his part of the house. 

    I've no idea what I'm going to do on long-term, since the personal
    side of this story had also an unexpected turn: Two days after my
    husband had left, someone phoned me in the middle of the night
    asking if I knew where his wife was. I hadn't even known that the
    girlfriend was married. After many nights of talking on the phone,
    we finally met. And now we are realizing that our relationship is
    already much deeper than just some help in a hard time, and it
    starts to get more independent from the past. The only problem is
    that he lives about 600 km away and has an excellent job, which he
    doesn't want to give up. We agreed to wait with looking for a
    solution until we both are sure that we really need one.

    I know that my relative strong position comes for a big part from
    the great support I get from my family and friends, but I don't
    think I had made another decision without this. It's still not
    sure that it will be possible for me to run the house alone, but
    I'm working hard on this.

    If you like your house and want to keep it, then I'd say try it.
    A housemate can make things a lot easier. Getting an estimate is
    an excellent idea, which can help you to keep your financial
    situation under control and, worst case, to give up before you are
    in deep trouble.

    Viele Gr��e,
                 Christine

I want to thank ALL of you for your heartfelt wishes and advice.  Jim
and I are in the quasi-agreement stage right now, but I will keep you
informed.  I KNEW the womannotes file would be a source of knowledge and
strength, as I've been in the read-only mode for awhile.

Because the house loan was secured by his VA eligibility, he wanted his name 
removed from that.  After speaking with a realtor friend, she advised that I 
keep the house and it's home improvement loan as I wouldn't be able to qualify 
and refinancing would be costly, etc.  To my surprise he agreed to that!  

SOOOOOO,  I'm on my way to being a) single again and b) a homeowner!  Part of
me is looking forward to everything new and part of me is scared to death!
The consolation and solace is that I'm not the only one and others have 
managed to get through this stage in their lives.

THANKS!

-denise