Conference turris::womannotes-v2

         RE: .0
         
         It is so sad to wake one morning to find that someone
         you love is still traveling in a straight line while
         you have turned right...we all grow and change, it
         is just difficult to assure that we do so in tandem,
         even with those we love.
         
         I have no advice...only questions that *I* would
         need to answer if I were you...
         
         Did you ever mention that you *might* want children
         later in your marriage, or was the pregnancy truly
         *out of the blue* for him?
         
         Was it really a misunderstanding, [you getting pregnant]
         or did you perhaps aid the confusion just a bit in
         hopes of doing so?
         
         Will you able to live without children?
         
         Will you be able to live without him?
         
         Could you live with yourself if you *allowed* yourself
         to get pregnant and he *forced* himself to play the
         role foisted upon him? [Duty it seems to me is a
         paltry subsitute for passion]
         
         Have you asked him *why* he doesn't want children.
         I have met some terribly sophisticated and gentle
         men who would never have children because they do
         not feel they could ever be *reasonable* father's
         based on *their* childhood experiences.
         
         Does he feel like you just changed the rules on him?
         Has he shared that with you? 
         
         Was is it you *want*? Him? Children? Which is *most*
         important?
         
         We [in H_R] need to know none of those things, but
         *I* would need to know them about myself and my husband
         if I were facing this.
         
         Although I tend to lean towards the feelings expressed
         in several replies [better stated than I would have
         been able] that it is you yourself who has done an
         about face on goals and expectations in the
         relationship, I *would* like to offer sympathy where
         I can not offer support. It *is* tragic to find you
         cannot continue with someone you love if you are
         to do what you *must* do.
         
         [sigh]
         
         Melinda
                   

         [sigh] It's been one of those weekends...[what weekend?]
         
         [ahem]....Yes, I *know* this is =wn=...not H_R...[now
         that Bonnie pointed it out to me...anyway...]..just
         let me pull my other foot out of my mouth to make
         room for this one....[giggle]
         
         M-

    I just want everyone who has not had the pleasure of meeting Mel
    in person to know that we've been working together for 8 months
    and I haven't yet seen her blush or giggle...
    
    On the other hand, she and her "partners in crime" have had Ed Services
    Development and Publishing laughing more in the last 8 months than
    we ever dreamed possible!

    Holly                                             
    

    Re .3, excellent suggestion, Marge!  I agree that if .0's husband
    does not want to ever have any children, then he would be doing
    himself a favor by having a vasectomy.  That way nobody will ever
    be able to "trick" him into becoming a father, and he won't have to
    stick around out of duty.

    Lorna
    

    I agree that that no one is going to "make" the husband change his
    mind, but looking at another angle, what are the reasons behind
    his decision? I realize at 40 he's not likely to have a change of
    heart, but for the sake of argument, and for the sake of younger
    people in this situation...
    
    I think hubby should see a counselor about the issues that make
    him feel he dislikes children. I wonder if there are serious issues
    from his childhood that are unresolved, maybe well hidden. Maybe
    if these issues were recognized the reason for the resentment might
    be cleared a bit.
    
    When 2 people with unhappy childhoods marry they might agree that
    children are not for them, or one partner might convince the other
    that it is the answer for both of them. There are workable issues
    behind that decision, unfortunately if only one parter comes to
    the realization that the no child decision wasn't a life long answer
    for them, then the partership might be in jeapordy.
    
    Gail

    When I was 20 year old, I didn't want any children either.  (I
    believe the author of the note said she's been with her husband
    since she was 20).  I came VERY close to not having the children.
    Now that I do have a son (and a child on the way) I see how 
    wrong I was 10+ years ago when I ademently refused to have children
    then.  I'm just glad that my SO's and present husband never held
    me to it.  They were always a bit older than me and then knew I
    couldn't mean it.
    
    I love my husband very much, but I'd give him up for my son any day!
    
    Anna
    

    Re: .8
    
    >I think hubby should see a counselor about the issues that make
    >him feel he dislikes children. I wonder if there are serious issues
    >from his childhood that are unresolved
    
    Perhaps, but perhaps not.  I don't dislike children per se, but
    I have no interest in having any and I know others who don't.  They
    take more time and energy than I'm willing to give.  Nothing deep,
    dark and mysterious about that.
    
    Re: .0
    
    Don't feel guilty about changing your mind.  You were in your early
    twenties when you got married, and younger women are frequently
    less interested in children.  Everyone grows and changes, so your
    change of heart is not some kind of betrayal.  It's a very natural
    and even expected phenomenon.

    re: People changing.
    
    I won't say this is the case in this situation, but I wonder if some
    people might not *expect* the other person to change their mind as they
    grow older and thus not take their comments about "not wanting to have
    children" very seriously.  For example, assuming I wanted kids at some
    point in time (far from saying that I do) and met someone who was
    relatively young, say early 20s, who said she didn't.  I probably would
    ignore that opinion because statistically I think a majority of people
    *do* change their minds as they get older.  For better or for worse.

    Miss Manners was once asked what the appropriate response was to a
    couple  who  announced at their wedding that they didn't intend to
    have any children.

    "Smile sweetly  and  remember what she said 10 years ago about how
    icky boys are and how she'd never have anything to do with them."

    I think that many of us do have more desire to have children as we
    age.  When I was twenty I could imagine not having children, now I
    wouldn't marry without an agreement to have children.

--David

    I wonder if the gentleman, at the age of 40, really just doesn't
    want to have to deal with rearing children into his 60s.  If he
    has managed to live this long without kids, I think he, like many
    childless older people, have worked out a life and a life-style
    that would be interrupted to a point of discomfort for him.  And
    perhaps he is not willing to make what would amount to a sacrifice for
    the dubious pleasure of being a parent.

    I had a son who terminated his marriage when he and his wife could
    not come to terms about beginning a family.  He had told her from
    day 1 that he never intended to have children; she felt that he
    would eventually change his mind.  He didn't, and because she could
    not accept that, they divorced.  She has a child by a 2nd marriage,
    he has gone on with his life sans children.  Both seem very happy.
    
    
    
    
    
    

    	Another male opinion.
    
    	At age 40, your husband has recognized his mortality. At thirty
    he was moving quickly and didn't want to be slowed down. At 20 you
    felt the same. Now you want a child. There's nothing wrong with
    that. He doesn't. There's nothing wrong with that either. 
    	I would say that he may be afraid that the comfortable life
    he feels he has now will be drastically changed. (It will!!) You
    must also remember that your husband will be 62 when the child leaves
    college at 22. Maybe he thinks you'll want more than one when you
    find how much fun 8^) kids are.
    	
    	My advice: tell him to get a vasectomy. Great advice Marge.
    Why should you be responsible for BC when its him holding the smoking
    gun? Tell him it's time load up with blanks.
    
    	2nd piece of advice: You want a baby? Have a baby. If you don't,
    you may never feel "right" about yourself again. It may make all
    the difference in the world for the rest of your life. 
    
    	What happens if he dies at 50? Are you prepared to spend the
    next 25-30 years alone? Would you want to try high risk pregnacy
    in your forties? What if you die at 40? Wouldn't life for him be
    so much richer with a child that he could see "you" in every day?
    
    Good Luck....may you find your answer.
    
    Ken

    If he really doesn't want kids, please don't trick him into it!
    
    Also, don't expect him to ever change his mind.  If he does, that's
    an added plus.  I know of a person who up until a couple of months
    ago, refused to even think about wanting kids.  Now he is engaged,
    and is looking forward to maybe some day having kids, so yes, people
    do change their minds.  But its THEM that has to change their mind,
    not you changing it for them.

    If you REALLY want kids, then by all means, get a divorce and have
    kids.  You don't need a husband to have kids. Yes, you need a male
    (even if its only in a donor sense), but there is no law that says
    you need a husband!
    
    But also remember that kids are a LARGE responsibility. Babies grow
    up, and take a lot of time and energy. Don't have kids to "keep
    you company" when you get old.  Have kids because you want to bring
    someone into this world, have kids because you want to pass along
    what you stand for. 
    
    If its something that you really want, then do it.  But do it because
    you want it.  If you think the desire is stronger than your marriage,
    than only you can answer that, and deal with it.  But also remember,
    the grass is greener on the other side is not always true.
    
    There are times I wish I could be like you, and not have kids, or
    the responsibility.  I'd love to be carefree and able to do whatever
    I want whenever I want...  But the other times outweigh those thoughts
    probably 85% of the time.
    
    Just whatever you decide, be happy in that decision and continue
    onward.
    
    Gale

	I would bet that no one would ever hear from the
	people who have children and wish they never did.  But
	I bet they're out there.

	Just a thought to counteract the "kids are worth it" theme.

>	I would bet that no one would ever hear from the
>	people who have children and wish they never did.  But
>	I bet they're out there.
>
>	Just a thought to counteract the "kids are worth it" theme.


Actually, I know someone who had children because it meant a lot to her husband.
She, herself, never wanted any.  I think the ones that suffer for this are the
kids.  She admitted to me that if she had to do it all over again, she wouldn't
have them.  (she told me this when I was getting engaged....she didn't want me
to be 'persuaded' if I didn't really want any.)

Ln

    I know you've asked for male opinions, but I would also like to
    add my two cents...
    
    .14 said a lot of what I've been thinking -- if you really want
    a child, then do what you need to do about that. If it ends up being
    with someone else, then so be it. 
    
    I also agree that he should think strongly about a vasectomy --
    whether you two stay together or not -- so as to avoid future conflict
    or misunderstandings.
    
    Most of all, I concur with the suggestions that you get some
    counseling. There could be deep seated issues from his childhood
    (or yours) or it could be a question of you both having grown in
    separate and different directions. ONly the 2 of you can determine
    that after working through some of what is going on. An unbiased
    3rd party can help you do that.
    
    I wish you luck, and can empathize with your "change of mind". In
    my twenties I went from "no kids" to maybe to now wanting another
    if not more. It's the hardest thing I've ever done, but also the
    most wonderful. Being a parent and a partner are equally demanding
    roles, and you both need to be really committed if each are to succeed.
    
    Again, best wishes.
    --Lynn
    

    Marilyn has hit a nail on the head. When I was younger, I wanted
    to have children. As I've grown older, the desire to have children
    has diminished more and more. At the moment, I'm at the point
    where I don't want any, though I'm not quite at the point where
    I'm adamant about it (not being married makes it a lot easier to
    not have to worry about making a decision in this regard).
    
    Part of my desire to not have children is a general pessimism
    about the future of the planet and our society (the old "do I
    really want to bring a child into *this* mess?" syndrome), but
    mostly, it has to do with my having settled into a comfortable
    life where I'm not responsible for anyone but me, and having no
    really desire to acquire any such responsibility.
    
    --- jerry

re: .16:  Maybe we do hear *about* the people who regret having kids,
in news stories about child abuse, but I find these too horrifying to
pay attention to them so I don't really understand what drives people
to injure or kill children.

As for myself, I wasn't very sure I could deal with it when Merle got
pregnant, but as it turned out seeing Rachel on ultrasound was truely
amazing, and then her birth was an indescribably moving experience.

I understand the "why bring children into this sick world?" viewpoint.
(I sometimes set my MAIL personal name to a quote from "Aliens" --
"I say we take off, nuke the site from orbit; it's the only way to be sure." --
You can interpret "site" as a DEC site, a troubled spot in the world, etc.,
depending on how bad of a mood I'm in.)  But trying to be here for my family
-- and friends -- is what keeps me more-or-less going.

    re: "Why bring a child into this 'mess' we call a world"???
    
    He/She may be the person that straightens the 'mess' out and makes
    life wonderful for milliniems to follow.
    
    Ever think that your child just may be the next Jesus, Buddah,
    Mohhammad?????? """""WE""""" have the ability to change everything,
    we just don't do it. Maybe the kids will.
    
    Ken

	Counselling is the best thing to do.  It's not easy to
	find that special someone you want to spend your life with.
	Just even thinking about maybe having to get divorced so that
	you can have children must seem like a form of betrayel to
	those wedding vows�.  A desire to have children has to be
	very strong to outweigh that, since you can not know what
	it will be like having them until you actually do.

	Statements from people who indicate that their children mean
	more to them than their spouse has always bothered me.  Children
	are not there for life.  You have to let them go, and you are
	lucky if they are always there for you after they've grown and
	gone on to their own life.  As a child, I always knew my parents
	came first to each other before us kids.  It gave me a sense
	of security.

	It is so hard when important things are not important to your
	spouse.  It is not easy to realize that what was once so
	right is no longer that way.  That you've grown apart.  Only
	you can decide that.

	You will have to look at what your future will be if you
	decide to part.  Can you bring up children on your own?
	You can't expect to find someone else to fall in love with
	who also wants children.

	If you decide that your marriage is more important than
	having children, maybe you can look into working with
	children.  

	Good luck to you.  

	...Karen

	� I'm assuming traditional until-death type of vows

    Re: .21
        
    > Ever think that your child just may be the next Jesus, Buddah,
    > Mohhammad?????? """""WE""""" have the ability to change everything,
    > we just don't do it. Maybe the kids will.
    
    Seeing the condition of the world today, why would we ever want
    to take another chance on Jesus, Buddah or Mohammed?
    
      Alan
    

    
    This is sort of off the topic of the basenote, but on the topic
    of this rathole. Sometimes I think, "yeah, it's a rotten world.
    Don't have kids, etc." But it seems to me that the people who are
    most sensitive to the misery of the world, and therefore more likely
    to be saying this, are the very ones who will raise the _best_ kids!
    I mean "best" in the sense of having a positive effect on the world.
    I use the words "good" and "bad" below for the sake of brevity.
    I really mean "people who will have a good/bad effect and make a
    positive/negative contribution to society because they do/don't
    care."
    
    If only people who aren't aware of the misery in the world, or who
    don't care about it, have kids, then the number of "bad" people (assuming
    as I do for the minute that  "bad" people have "bad" kids and "good"
    people have "good" kids) will grow in proportion to the number of
    good people. 
    
    My mother expressed the same doubts about the world to my father 30 
    years ago when they were considering having kids. My father said,"our 
    kids will make the world better". Well, none of us are senators, or work in
    the Peace Corps., or anything overt like that. But we're all decent
    and honest, and maybe the world needs more people like that. (I
    happen to believe that the arts enrich people and _do_ make a
    contribution, but that's another issue.)
    
    So let's all populate the world with decent, honest people! Don't
    give it up to the evil doers!
    
    Roberta
          
    P.S. The above of course does not deal with the issue of being able
    to afford to raise a child properly, or whether you _personally_
    _want_ to have kids; only with the "miserable world" issue.

I agree with note .22.  Not only can you not expect to find someone else
as a partner who wants kids, but there is no guarentee that the two of you
will be able to have kids. Infertility is a problem for many couples, and
would be all the more devestating if having kids was the reason you got
together!

I think you are at a point in your life where you need to decide what your
priorities are - your mate or having children. If having children is your
priority then you need to face the fact you may do that as a single
parent, and that adoption may be the best alternative (given what you
don't know about a prospective partner etc etc.) And adoption of white
babies is not easy these days and so you might want to think about a
minority or handicapped child. You really need to think about why you
want a child, and what you can accept, and what you can give up - and
is it worth giving up your relationship.

It is hard and I sympathize with you. I hope that you and your husband
get counseling so that together you can make the best decision.

Good luck,

Muggsie

    Re .22, Karen, I think it bothers you when people say that their
    children mean more to them than their spouse, simply because you
    are (from what I can tell from your notes!) happily married, with
    no children.  Naturally, you can't imagine giving up your husband
    for some unknown child whom you may not even want.  
    
    I'm in just the opposite situation.  You say "children are not there
    for life".  Well, sometimes they are.  Maybe not living with you
    everyday, but I'd like to think that I've always "been there" for
    my mother, and that my daughter will always "be there" for me, if
    I need her help in any way someday.  I know I plan to always "be
    there" for her, to the best of my ability.  I've been through 3
    men in the past 17 years (and that's only counting the major, live-in
    "in love" relationships :-) ) but I've had the same daughter for
    the past 15 years.  Those 3 men don't love me anymore, but my daughter
    still does.  So, who is there for me, the men or my daughter?
    
    Before my daughter was born, I considered my relationship with her
    future father to be more important than any unborn children.  But,
    now that I'm divorced from him and my daughter is 15 yrs. old, I
    consider her to be more important than any future, unknown
    relationship.  I do consider relationships to be important but not
    *quite* as important as her.  The way I see it, she's with me as
    long as we both live, whereas a relationship could be here today
    and gone tomorrow.  So, I think that whether we value children or
    spouses more depends on what's happened in our lives.
    
    In regard to .0's dilemma, once I get something I like, I tend to
    try to hang onto it.  So, if I had a husband I loved, I most likely
    wouldn't divorce him to have future children.  On the other hand,
    if I had a child I loved (which I do), I would never give her up
    for a relationship.  I value most the good things I already have.
    
    Re .23, "Seeing the condition of the world today, why would we ever
    want to take another chance on Jesus, Buddah or Mohammed?"  :-)
    
    I know. I hate to think what bizarre religions and beliefs might
    spring up this time around!!!  
    
    Lorna
    

    I wonder if Mohammed, Buddah, or Jesus would want to take a chance
    on us, considering the state of the world ! 8^)
    
    I think we've made some great strides toward world peace, disease,
    and we're making progress with homelessness and starvation. WE pervert
    the world, it doesn't pervert us. 
    
    The decision to have kids is one that only you can make. We can
    argue the merits and horrors. No one is going to convince you either
    way, and to accept anything that any of us say as the reason to
    have children or not, is foolhardy. You have to go with your true
    feelings and instincts. 
    
    You have to do what YOU feel is right for YOU. 
    
    Ken

    re: responses to my previous reply
    
    I recognize that it's being defeatist to not want to bring a child
    into an ugly world. Recognizing it doesn't make the feeling go away.
    
    Of course, a good part of the reason things are so getting as bad
    as they are is due to overpopulation. So, by not intending to have
    children, I am in a sense doing my part to keep things from getting
    worse.
    
    --- jerry

    There's a song on the new Bonnie Raitt album about this very issue.
    Something like this:
    "I have a friend, she calls me late at night and cries.
     She sees babies everywhere and she wants one of her own..."
                                             
    She spoke rather eloquently on the subject Friday evening on NPR's
    All Things Considered (with Noah Adams?).  It's a fairly widespread
    dilemma, bringing people to difficult and terrible choices.  But
    isn't the price of choice increased responsibility?
    
    Warm thoughts to the writer of the basenote.       
    

    re: .22
    
    Karen,
    
    I have to agree with Lorna about "being there" for our children and
    them for us.  My parents always put us first just as I'll always put
    Shawn first.
    
    I think another reason some women may tend to feel their children are
    more important to them than their spouses are is due in part to a need
    to be needed.  Our children need us to help them grow and care for
    them.  Most spouses, on the other hand, should be able to care for
    themselves (I say "most" because there are those medically unable to
    care for themselves and can not be included in this reasoning.)
    
    Beckie