Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    Why don't you and your husband decide on how much you want to spend
    and tell the daughters what you can afford. Period. As far as the
    money goes, if its your money than you can tell them 'how much'you will
    give them.
    
    About the dance, I find it immature and FAKE to have your husband
    and his ex dance together. People must know they are divorced so
    why put on a show? I had a friend in this situation and he told
    the son (in this case) NO with no discussion on the topic.  I
    think these women should respect and acknowledge you by letting you
    participate in this affair, besides, its your money too that they are 
    spending.
    
    
    Good luck! These situations are always uncomfortable.

    Cathy,
    
    I thought I would let you know how it feels to be on the other end.
    I really feel sorry that you have to be in this situation.  I am
    sure it is very uncomfortable for you.
    
    My mother and father got divorced after 25 years of marriage (sh*t,
    I just spent 20 minutes writing this note and the network went down,
    here goes again).  My mother has been remarried for the last a 6
    years.  I am very close to my step father and love him very much.
    My father has never dated since the divorce.  I got married 1 1/2
    years ago.  My mother and step father are very close and always
    very lovey dovey and wanted to dance together.  I think it's great
    that she is so happy but what do I do with my father?  Send him
    off the dance floor alone?  I would have just preferred to have
    no parents dance at all but my husband is greek and the wedding
    was a big thing for his parents.  His father also payed for the
    wedding and he wanted the parents dance.  My mother and I could
    never agree on the dance and right before they announced us as
    Mr. And Mrs. John Matsis at the reception, we still didn't have
    a solution.  My mother did NOT want to dance with my father and
    my father had no date.  He was all alone.  Here I am getting all
    upset but just bit my tongue and let my mother do what she wanted.
    So they announce everyone and off goes my father, all by him self
    off of the dance floor while my mother and step father dance and
    my mother and father in law dance.  I felt like crying and it upset
    a lot of the family as well (that's my mothers side, my fathers
    side was not at the wedding).  It was a sad sight.  Now my mother
    and father are still friends, so that wasn't the issue.  Couldn't
    they have accepted my wishes and danced for 3 minutes out of the
    whole night?  Would they rather see me upset?  I never said a word
    about it after.
    
    So please think about the brides feelings.  It is only 3 minutes
    out  of your life.  I know the situation with you is a little 
    different because of the resentment but it will probably only get
    worse if you fight their wishes (of course the financial demands
    are a different story).  It is supposed to be the most important
    day in their life.
    
    Pam
    
    
    

    Re: .0
    
    Since your husband has attended events without you, it's entirely
    possible that your stepdaughters believe they have "gotten their
    way" and that they control the situation.  It's important for you
    and your husband to decide what you are willing to do and what is
    non-negotiable.  When one of those non-negotiable items is finally
    encountered, make it very clear that it is non-negotiable.

        Pam,
    
    	First it is so hard to convey feelings over the terminal.
    	I have tried so hard to make these girls and I run into
    	a stone wall everytime.
    	Let me explain that I want so bad for everyone to get along.
    	Their mother lives with someone, not only will I look stupid
    	sitting at that table but how will he feel. I am a very
    	sensitive loving person and what hurts the most is watching
    	my husband ponder and worry over this night after night.
    	I know it's only three minutes, but what about the introduction?
    	I told them on Saturday that the seating arrangments were no
    	problem, but to blatently leave us out is down right mean.
    	I wrote in here not for people to think I wanted to ruin this
        wedding, but to try and come to terms with ultimatley will be
    	the decision, for them to dance together because I will not
    	hurt my husband for anything in the world. And if my being
    	mature, by saying it's only a three minute dance then the least
    	they can introduce us as part host.
    
    	I know this is alot but I truly felt sorry for you. Try to
    	understand.
    	
        Cathy
    
    
    
    	

Another attempt at the former .3 response....
    
                              -< you asked for opinions >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    What follows are my suggestions based upon what I have seen work
    in similar situations.
    
    1. Cost of extremely wonderful and fancy wedding:
       A. Opinion #1:  Parents are not obligated to give children exactly
          what they ask for.
       B. I would suggest that your husband and the girls' mother sit
          down together and discuss the amounts that both are willing/able
    	  to contribute to the 'Wedding of the Decade'. 
       C. Hand the girls this bottom-line amount and invite them to
          spend it, placing no conditions upon how they spend it.
       D. Encourage them to have whatever frills they feel will make their
          day special, but make clear that once the amount provided
    	  by their parents is expended _they_ must seek alternative sources
    	  of funds [i.e. pay themselves, ask grooms'/grooms' parents,
    	  get Aunt Beckie to pay for the bouquets...]
    
    2. Parents dance:
       I have been to weddings where the floor was cleared for a Parents
       Dance and one or both sets of parents were no longer married
       to one another.
       It was awkward, but it was important to the children that their
       parents dance together.
       OPINION #2: Motives of the daughters aside, if the girls want
       it and their parents don't find it distasteful, it would be nice.
       After all, it is _their_ wedding day.
    [Even in when this sort of dance took place, the father of the
    bride/groom has ALWAYS sat with his wife/current-life-partner at
    both the church and the reception -- at least in my experience]
    
    3. How they feel about/treat you:
       You've already stated that they have a bit of maturing to
    accomplish.   It's easy for me to say 'Consider the source and don't
    let it hurt you' but of course I know that that's not an easy thing
    to do.
       Keep telling yourself in a nice way that no matter how much they
    try to blame _you_ if they don't get exactly what they want, that
    it is ultimately not your doing.  You know this, so don't let what
    they say rile you up.  Refer all questions/gripes in this area to
    their parents.  They seem to have made it abundantly clear that
    you aren't _really_ a welcome person in their lives -- they can't
    have it both ways.
    
    Ultimately, do what makes you and your husband happy.
    
      Ann

Cathy,

I, like Pam, have been on the other side. My parents got divorced after 38
years of marriage. My Dad remarried (an old friend of his AND my mothers),
my mother has not. When I got married my Dad was invited (he was not
contributing at all financially) and his wife was not invited. It was his
choice to come (which he did).

I know this is a very different situation from the one you are in and I don't
want to compare, but did want to clue you in to the background.

I think kids (of all ages including adult children) are very hurt, confused,
etc. when thier parents get divorced. And a parent remarrying is just more
to handle. A lot of feelings have to be worked out. It takes time.

It is thier wedding day. They may want their parents to dance together
because to them their parents have represented a unit that they are not
ready to let go of. It sounds important to them, so let them have it if
your husband and his ex-wife agree. Don't make it an issue with your
husband because then he has to choose between pleasing you and pleasing
his daughters - which is tough.

I wasn't sure from the note if they wanted the parents sitting together at
a separate table from you. (I can't figure out how to go back and read the
first note to make sure). If this is the case then I would take that as
an almost non-invitation.

In terms of announcing host and hostess - I would let that go. Again they
may still want to think in terms of their Mom and Dad.

In terms of finances. I totally agree with the person who said indicate
how much you can afford and tell them your limit. It does not make sense
for you to spend more than you can afford.

I don't know if this helps. I just know from experience that I had a lot
of feelings about my parents divorce, and the fact that we were no longer
a family unit. It hurt. It heals over time. Be patient.

Good Luck,

Muggsie

    
    First let me say that I am in Britain and that British wedding
    traditions are not the same as American (Formal dances are less
    common and other things such as cake-feeding and garter throwing
    are almost unknown). However a similar situation arose in our family 
    (my cousin married and her parents are divorced and both remarried).
    
    Her father paid and sent out the invitations. He invited his ex-wife
    and her new husband at his daughter's request.
    
    At the reception The parents sat next to the bride, and their spouses
    occupied the next two seats.
    
    When it came to the formal dances the parents danced briefly together
    (about 20 seconds - as long as it took the photographer to take
    a couple of pictures), the mother's husband then escorted the father's
    wife onto the floor,  cut in on the parents and the father partnered 
    his wife whilst the two couples concluded the waltz in unison (they'd
    practiced before hand).
                                                    
    /. Ian .\

    I think the way things were done in .10 sounds sensible.  It seems
    silly to me to make the parents dance a parents dance together when
    they aren't married anymore.  I don't understand what the purpose
    would be except to make the parent's new SO's (if any) feel like
    outsiders.  I think both parents *with* their new SO's should sit
    at the head table.  I also think they should be introduced with
    the parents when the wedding party is introduced.  If there is a
    parents dance then I think the "real" parents should dance with
    their current SO's.  It should just be done as if their were 3 sets
    of parents instead of 2.
    
    Sometimes I think children (of all ages) need to be reminded that
    their parents have lives to live, too, and as much right to be happy
    as they (the kids) do.  It's such a common thing for kids to forget.
     Sometimes they expect parents to be all-giving, never asking anything
    in return.  If children really love their parents they should want
    the parents to have happy lives, and should not want to force
    situations that will only bring unhappiness (such as causing fights
    with new SO's who are made to feel left out).  
    
    Lorna
    
    
    

    
    	Some things to consider...
    
    The people who are getting married's parents are no longer a couple,
    by matter of fact. Any problems that this may cause in their wedding
    is *their* problem, by definition. You can bet that they'll try
    their best to make it someone else's...If you want to avoid owning
    this problem, make sure you clarify that to everyone.
    
    People tend to live at least in part in "fantasy". Perhaps these
    two women are still a bit in the denial stage in accepting that
    "their parents are divorced" and *want* the fantasy of "they're still
    together/everything's OK/Nothing wrong with *my* family" to be present
    at their wedding. Perhaps it's OK for things to be that way for
    a short time, just so that on this special day (for them) they can
    have everything as they want it. Even if a part of it is "pretend".
    
    This might be done simply for the sake of considering another's
    feelings above your own - temporarily. Realize that doing that all
    the time is an unhealthy approach to life, but, perhaps for a couple
    of minutes, it might be an "ok" thing to do. I'm sure that you realize
    that eventually these women will have to face their internal "denial"
    of _what is_ in the here and now, and come to accept it. Perhaps
    forcing this acceptance of the "hard, cold reality" at their wedding
    is not the "best time" for them to be made so aware, as this kind of
    awareness causes pain. Who want's to be pained on their wedding
    day? 
    
    There is the possibility that these two women will *never* face
    their denial of _what is_, now, and that allowing the "fantasy"
    to occur will only serve to reinforce their internal denial. As
    I said earlier, that's *their* problem. Seems it's "a given", no
    matter what you choose to do.                               
    
    Hope this helps some. If you find that you're owning someone else's
    problem(s), the best thing to do is to bat it right back into their
    court! In certain cases, you might choose to cut another some slack
    - temporarily - and "own the problem", with the knowledge that it
    will go right back to the actual owner afterward. Everyone gets
    to be a little unrealistic (surrealistic?) some of the time. Fantasy
    can be a healthy thing, as long as it's "in balance" with reality. 
    I'm sure you can understand that if these women continued to hold
    in fantasy that "mom and dad are still together", that would be
    an unhealthy thing for everyone.
    
    	Joe Jas
    

		Dear Noters,

                Thanks to all who replied, your thoughts and time with 
                my problem meant a great deal to me. I have thought
                about each and every suggestion, both sides and I came to
                my decision.

                I sat with my husband last night, without the T.V. or
                any other interruptions. I told him I needed to talk and
                all I wanted him to do was listen.  I told him I would 
                compromise on this situation. I said I gave this plenty
                of thought and this is what I thought I could handle:


               1.  Because "we" were giving them money to have the kind of
                   wedding they would like to have I would like to be 
                   introduced with him as we enter the reception, as part
                   host and hostess, sit and eat together...I think that 
                   is fair to ask since have made my donation financially 
                   to this wedding.


               2.  I could handle this dance if that's what he thought
                   would make his daughters happy, but when the dance was 
                   over could he walk to the table and hug and kiss me...
                   nothing elaborate, just a thanks.

                  
                3. Third, that I love him with all of my heart and if my
                   being "mature" about all of this makes it easier for
                   him that's what truly matters to me, not what any of the 
                   family thinks. But in no uncertain terms would I compromise
                   more and that he must draw the line somewhere.

          He, being the wonderful man that he is said " He loves me, he admires
          my strength and maturity and he thanked me for all of my support,
          BUT he has not made HIS decision yet, that the compromise is more
          than anyone could ask for and that some day his daughters will 
          realize just what kind of a friend their stepmother is."

          Thanks to all, I am glad I made the decision with your help.
          I will go in a beautiful dress and have my hair done and I will go
          being proud to be his wife.
           
                Cathy    

    Sounds great Cathy.  I totally understand how you must feel but
    wanted to let you know how I felt.  It wasn't a matter of me trying
    to get my parents to dance because I couldn't face the fact that
    they are divorced.  I was happy when they got divorced because I
    knew how long my mother had been unhappy.  The problem was my father
    was alone, was introduced as he came in, and then booted off of
    the dance floor while my mother danced with her new husband.  It
    is a PARENTS dance and as I said I really would have liked to have
    no dance at all and this would probably be the easiest solution
    for you.  I don't understand why the parents have to dance especially
    if they are divorced, one remarried and one living with another
    person.  Why not just have the bride and grooms 1st dance, and then
    have the attendants join in.  Wouldn't that be the easiest solution?
    I'm sure that this is a very common problem now since the divorce
    rate is so high.
    
    It's hard to write in here without getting misunderstood.  I want
    you to know that I am not against you and putting you down.  You
    have a right to be upset about the way they are treating you.  I
    would feel the same way.  Maybe you can suggest no parents dance,
    you each sit with your spouse at the head table and all couples
    are introduced with their spouse.  
    
    Best wishes.  Pam

Cathy,

I also say good for you for making a decision, talking about it clearly
and lovingly with your husband. That is the most important thing.

I also wanted to say that in my note I was trying to think about how the
girls felt, since I had some experience. 

I agree that the idea of a parents dance is kind of silly in this situation.
At my wedding I did not suggest or ask my parents to dance together, or
take pictures with just me etc. etc. In my mind they were divorced and forcing
them to be together is kind of silly. But I also understand the wish and
"fantasy" as Joe put it of wanting things to be different and acting upon
that.

But what is important here is your relationsip with your husband. It sounds
like you are caring for that relationship and at the same time understanding
your own limits. That is what counts!

Muggsie

    My parents were still together when I got married.
    
    I never heard of a parents dance (but this was 1972!).
    
    I danced with my father, and David danced with his mother.  His
    father was dead, and his grandfather escorted his mother, so I think
    David next danced with my mother, and I danced briefly with his
    grandfather.  After that, everyone danced with whomever they pleased
    -- it was easy!
         
    Good luck.
    
    Holly
    

    
    Why do you have to dance? Have a reception without dancing, then
    there is no problem.  My sister had 200+ people at her reception,
    nobody danced and everyone had a good time (at least they said they
    did). This also saves money 'cause you don't need a band, just have
    a stereo playing some nice background music. I don't understand
    all the fuss about who is to dance with whom.

    
    People may think I'm fixated about photography, but I'm not. However
    as an ex-professional photographer, I would like to add 2� on a
    slightly different tack.
    
    I don't know what arrangements have been, or are being made about
    photography, nor in the circumstances do I know what the photographers
    briefing is. BUT if at all poosible, you should try and make sure
    that the photographer knows exactly what the family situation is.
    The formal groups and arranegments should be modified in the light
    of the actual family structure. It would be a shame if you solved
    the problem of a dance that will be forgotten in a little while,
    and wound up with wedding albums that reflect for posterity a wedding
    in which the parents are present and the step-parents are simply absent.
                                                              
    Just a thought, but one of the logistical details that need to be
    nailed down early...
    
    /. Ian .\

    
    re: .19 > What is the concern about who dnaces....
    
    	      Good question, but the tradition of this family anyway
              is after the dinner the "party" begins and that includes
    	      dancing.  As far as who dances with who, that is a problem
              the girls have created themselves.
    
                                                              
    re: .20 > I have thought about the pictures and again, if they don't
    	      want me to even dance with their father when photos will be
    	      taken I doubt very highly they want me in their albums
    	      anyway.
    
    		Let me just say I have under estimated how my husband
    	        feels about this, he wants to sit with his daughters
    	        one on one and get all this out into the air. He says
    		he wants their  attitudes to change, and that he has
    		a life of his own and he feels they are making a joke
    		of OUR marriage.  So who's knows what's going to happen
    		now. I wish they knew how much they have hurt him. 
    
                Cathy
    
    

    My sympathies to you.  I am also a step-mother so I understand the
    position you are in.  You have every right to feel uncomfortable
    with the wedding plans as they are.  You are the Father's wife and
    you ought to be treated as such, not an unwanted appendage.
    
    Father is one who needs to straighten out the daughters - he has
    to back you and support you and make sure that you are included
    and considered.  Without his support your efforts are fruitless.
    I was lucky - my step-kids were much younger.  My husband 'expected'
    me to be the one who dealt with them and I did and they are great,
    loving kids and they accepted it, too.
    
    Again, I say talk to your husband and I hope he views your feelings
    as valid and natural.  It's the daughters BIG DAY and they have
    right to see it go as they wish, but they do no have the right to
    discount and dictate how others feel.  How is your relationship
    with the ex-wife?  Any support there?  She might be the one who
    could help to eliviate the tension.
    
    Good luck.
    
    Debbie

    


    HEY CATHY;
    
         It is your husband. You do attend the wedding and I feel you
    have no say in the cost. Your husband must support that! They are
    his daughters. But Cathy Think ----- Those girls are doing it one
    time ---- Give them the best. Then             talk with your hubby!
                                                                 
    
    
    
    
    

                     
     re >.22   There is no help from the mother, unfortunatley she probably
    	       conjured this up herself.  Thanks anyway.
    
    re. >.23   What do you mean I have no say in the cost?!?!?! We don't
    	       have seperate bank accounts! I work just as hard as my
    	       husband does and we pool our finances to pay our bills.
    	       I certainly am not going in debt, at the start of my
    	       NEW life with my husband, just because I am his second
    	       wife!  Let's be realistic here, I am not going to ride
    	       around in a car that's falling apart, or give up our
    	       desperatley needed vacation just because the princeses
    	       are spoiled little brats!!  This may be a little strong
    	       and I may sound selfish but all my life I have worked
    	       hard for what I have.  We can have a nice, very special
    	       wedding without going higher than the national debt.
    	       And if they can't plan something within reason, let THEM
    	       get a second job, WE won't!
    
    		Cathy
    			
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

 I disagree that Cathy has no say in the cost. Reason: SHE IS FOOTING HALF THE
BILL! I think she has a right to insist that expenditures be kept within
reason.

 The Doctah

    I haven't had a chance to read through all the replies, so excuse
    me if I repeat what others may have already said.
    
    I, too, am a stepparent, although the girls are much younger than
    in your situation.  One thing my husband and I have tried to do
    from the beginning is to present a united front (me and him) when
    dealing with them, rather than have them try to play me against
    him and vice versa.
    
    So, my first suggestion is that you and your husband go over the
    whole thing BY YOURSELVES, and establish a clear line of how the
    two of you want to handle the wedding.  As I believe .6 noticed,
    the girls think that they're in control on this, and you need to
    have a firm hand in reminding them that you are also involved.
    
    Secondly, if you and your husband have agreed to pay half the costs,
    that entitles you to a share in the decision making. If the girls
    do not agree with your decisions, they can certainly opt to pay
    for certain things themselves. Treat it as a business transaction
    if you must -- they've presented their proposal of what they want
    for the wedding, you and your husband can now counter with what
    you will agree to provide and what you will not.
    
    As a sidenote, I am curious as to the relationship between your
    husband and his ex--- do you three get along, to the point that
    you could work some of these issues as a team (in my situation,
    his ex refuses to acknowledge me or my existence, for a variety
    of reasons).  If that's not possible, ignore this part.
    
    Lastly, the girls may need to be confronted on their anger and
    resistance to you. I know you said there have been many fights in
    the past, etc., but that's different than sitting them down,
    acknowledging their dislike/discomfort/unhappiness with their father
    remarrying while at the same time reminding them that he is entitled
    to live his own life and choose his own companion, just as they
    are. The wedding stuff sounds like true testing to see how much
    you and your husband will take/stand for, and I think now, rather
    than closer to the wedding, is the time to take a stand and be clear
    on what you and he are willing to take/give.
    
    I can really feel for your situation -- it's very frustrating and
    painful to go through.  But I firmly believe that if you and your
    husband can negotiate between you two what stand you will take,
    at least you can work through the "battle" with a clear mind and
    heart that you're doing what the two of you can live with.
    
    Best wishes,
    Lynn
    

    One final explanation about confronting the girls' anger/resentment
    of you. The purpose of that is to tell them "We know you may not
    like us being together, and we can respect your feelings, but your
    dislike of it isn't going to make us split up or go away from each
    other".
    
    The same holds true for your share of the wedding costs. In this
    day and age, it is no longer a given for parents to finance the
    whole wedding. If, as I said earlier they have certain things that
    they want and you disagree, then the item should become their
    responsiblity rather than yours.
    
    Again, best wishes for some resolution.
    Lynn
    

    Obviously you know the problem isn't the wedding, it started long
    before and the wedding is just making worse.  Weddings alway tend to
    blow emotions out of proportion. I can sympathize with both sides; to
    have a successful wedding with divorced parents takes a lot of
    communication and compromise, but you seem to be doing all of the
    bending and compromise.  Most people don't want their weddings to
    cause family tensions, so they talk things out, but these two women
    aren't being mature about it.
    
    We had similar problems when we got married, my husbands parents are
    divorced and his father is remarried.  Here are a few things we did to
    make things easier.  It wasn't perfect, we did have a few hurt
    feelings, but it made life easier. 
                                                                    
    
    1) Have two parents tables, one for the mothers family, friends and
       escort and one for the fathers family, friends and new spouse.
    
    2) Introductions for his married father went like this "Introducing
       the father of the groom and his wife Mr & Mrs.....".   A non
       married parent "Introducing the mother of the groom and her escort
       Ms....& Mr..."

       As far as introducing a host and hostess,  I've never seen that done.
       The host and/or hostess are assumed by the way the invitation is
       worded, if both the parents names are on it then both are assumed
       to be hosting the wedding. 
    
    3) After the bride and groom's first dance, the whole wedding party
       and parents came out to join us.  Since his mom had no escort my
       uncle came out and danced with her.  It wasn't that important to
       my husband to have his parents dance together, as much as having
       them both out on the dance floor.
                                                                  
    4) Pictures are a whole different ball game, this is where things got
       tricky.  Dave wanted a picture of us and his parents. This is where
       there could be a little understanding from the step-parents since
       it only takes a few seconds.  We ended up with a lot of photographs 
       to make everyone happy:  one of us and his parents, us and his mom,
       us and his dad and step mom etc. A good photographer will get the details
       of the families prior to the wedding so that s/he can get the pictures
       without hurting anyones feelings.
         
    5) You didn't mention the receiving line, but this is another tricky
       area.  We solved it by just letting everyone in the receiving line.
       My parents, his mom, his father and his step mother.  Wedding ettiqute
       says fathers shouldn't even be in the receiving line anyway ( I think
       this is silly) and only the mothers should be in line while fathers
       circulate as hosts bringing people drinks in line etc.  Another solution
       to this problem is to have one parent (and spouse/escort) greet people
       at the door to the church and have the other parent greet people
       at the reception.  The children should not expect their parents
       to stand in line together as host/hostess, it can cause tension
       and confusion to guests as well as tension between the parents.

    6) Lastly, where to sit during the ceremony:  if you can solve all of
       the other issues, this one should be easy, since it is not that visible.
       The hostess is usually given the privelege of sitting in the front
       row.  The host should sit with his spouse, in the second or third
       row.

Hope this helps.  My husband and I did a lot of reading, thinking and talking
before the wedding and these were the ideas we found in books or came up
with ourselves.  Perhaps your husband should offer to buy them some wedding
books, most of the newer ones today deal sensibly with the divorced parents
issue.  I wish you luck Cathy.  If you need to talk more about
the problem itself and/or the wedding problems, feel free to contact me
via mail.

Suzanne
                                        
    

    re: .21
    
    They may not want you in their album, but what about your husband's
    album.  He may want to select several pictures for himself and you.
    He may want a picture of the two of you and his daughters.  And
    who knows if this all gets worked out eventually, your step daughters
    may want that picture too!
    
    Suzanne