| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 498.1 | | MEMORY::SLATER | | Mon Mar 13 1989 13:38 | 10 |
| I do not see how they then can deny the right to purchase to a legally
qualified person because they are in the presence of someone that
is not qualified.
In the case where the alcohol was not sold *after* the qualified
person came back in, we could carry this to it logical conclusion.
"The last time I sold you beer, you went home with it, I know there
are people there that are under age."
Les
|
| 498.2 | Preventing Liability Later?? | COMET::HENNINGER | | Mon Mar 13 1989 14:00 | 20 |
| The seller is of course making a presumption of the comsumer of
the beverage in question. However, in CO and several other states
an over age person is legally prohibitted from providing alcoholic
beverages under any conditions. Be it a waiter to an overage person
who provides it to the underage or the overage who provides to the
underage at home.
Further, in these litiginous days, the seller was protecting himself
from the possibility of a future negligence or 'brother's keeper'
ordinance suit. The minor if provided by the overage person could
and probably has on more than one occasion claimed "But the seller
must have known as a reasonable person that I would be consuming
the beverage." and have won massive damages.
I applaud the seller as a parent for the stand taken. If my children
are to drink they should be at home or of age not buying through
a third party.
Don
|
| 498.3 | Me Too!!!! | GIAMEM::FISHER | Give me torque or give me death | Mon Mar 13 1989 14:04 | 9 |
|
The same thing happened to me several years ago, and I too
questioned the legality of the store owners action. Especially
since my parents never had a problem purchasing alcohol while
accompanied by their underaged children.
Could anyone answer this conclusively?
TF
|
| 498.4 | <it = CYA> | CGVAX2::HOGLUND | insert cute p name | Mon Mar 13 1989 15:11 | 15 |
|
it's very legal! i've had it happen to me while i've had my underage
sister (only a year younger) with me. she had to go out to the
car and i went to a different cashier and was allowed to purchase
the beer i had to put back the first time. i've also worked as
a cashier and you can refuse to sell alcohol for any reason. be
it you think they've had to much, the ID isn't valid or you suspect
they are purchasing for minors. i have refused to sell to someone
because they were in the store 5 times within 2 hours purchasing at
least a case of beer each time. the guy had obviously had to much
to drink and i *knew* he was drinking with minors. i refused to sell
to him but my manager did. so if anything did come of it she was
responsible not me. it's called CYA!
|
| 498.5 | Liability | PERFCT::NOVELLO | | Mon Mar 13 1989 23:34 | 10 |
|
In MA, liability is on the liquor seller. One of my law professors
said that, if you buy a baseball bat in a sporting goods store,
and club someone to death, the store has no liability, but,
if you buy a 6 pack, then kill someone while driving drunk,
the package store could be liable. He also mentioned that liability
insurance had *risen* dramatically for his package store clients.
Guy Novello
|
| 498.6 | | ERLANG::MINOTT | | Tue Mar 14 1989 09:49 | 5 |
| I think, at least in Massachusetts, that it is illegal for anyone
under 21 to enter a liquor store along with entering a night club type
of place after 7:00 pm.
Not 100% sure though.
|
| 498.7 | | MEMORY::SLATER | | Tue Mar 14 1989 10:17 | 19 |
| re .6
In Massachusetts you can buy some alcoholic spirits in some grocery
stores. These stores are *primarily* grocery stores.
What if a single parent with a three-year-old child wishes to buy
groceries and a bottle of wine (or a six pack) to have in the
apartment.
It would be reasonable to bring the child grocery shopping and into
the store and to put that bottle of wine (or six pack) into the
cart. What are the alternatives? Leave the child home? Hire a babby
sitter? Leave the child in the car? Order the beverage delivered?
If the store forced a parent of young child to by left home or in
a car alone just to satisfy some *stores* concern for their skins,
then they should be sued.
Les
|
| 498.8 | | ODIHAM::PHILPOTT_I | Col. Philpott is back in action... | Tue Mar 14 1989 10:47 | 14 |
|
I believe the situation in [most] US states is the same as in Britain:
to whit a store, in displaying goods, such as alcoholic beverages,
is inviting you to offer to buy - in legal terms the display is
an invitation to tender. However whilst there are restrictions on
the price they may ask when you do offer to buy, there is no compulsion
whatsoever on the store to actually sell.
ie they may not have to refuse the sale in circumstances .0 describes,
but they don't need a real excuse to do so - provided they don't
appear to violate some anti-discrimination legislation - they can
refuse to sell anything to anybody.
/. Ian .\
|
| 498.9 | True in New York | CIVIC::FERRIGNO | | Tue Mar 14 1989 12:07 | 0 |
| 498.10 | illegal to sell; not illegal to not sell | HEADS::MARSHALL | hunting the snark | Wed Mar 15 1989 18:15 | 7 |
| Legal, scmegal. A shop owner can refuse to sell anything to anyone
for any reason. They are his goods, to sell or not as he chooses.
/
( ___
) ///
/
|
| 498.11 | | APEHUB::STHILAIRE | It's beyond my control | Thu Mar 16 1989 10:41 | 15 |
| I can't remember ever having anyone refuse to sell me alcohol when
I had my daughter with me. But, maybe we didn't strike them as
two people who were likely to be boozing it up together.
I do remember once when I was over 21 and I went into a liquor store
with an 18 yr. old guy who was a friend of mine. After I paid for
the stuff my friend started to take the bag for me, to carry it
(chauvinist little thing!), and the guy in the store said, "He can't
carry that out of here!" I thought he was joking, but he wasn't.
He actually made me carry the bag out because my friend was under
age. I thought that was ridiculous at the time, but at least he
sold us the stuff. (and we did booze it up together!)
Lorna
|
| 498.12 | same here | TARKIN::TRIOLO | Victoria Triolo | Thu Mar 16 1989 11:00 | 5 |
|
The same thing happened to me with my brother. I had to make two
trips because my younger brother couldn't help me.
(just 3 sixes :-))
|
| 498.13 | | MEMORY::SLATER | | Thu Mar 16 1989 16:54 | 20 |
| re .10 (Steve)
> Legal, scmegal. A shop owner can refuse to sell anything to anyone
> for any reason. They are his goods, to sell or not as he chooses.
Not true. There are many reasons, that an "owner" of goods offered
to the public for sale, that are not permissible. Try not selling
to woman or Blacks and see how far you will get.
There is danger for abuse of "owner" discretion. If an owner or
operator sees some kids hand someone money in the parking lot and
then the person comes in and orders beer or whatever, then there
may be good reason to refuse the sale.
However, if one makes it a habit to sell to forty-year-olds with
fourteen-year-olds in tow but not to twenty-two-year-olds with the
the fourteen-year-old in tow, we would have a clear case of
discrimination.
Les
|
| 498.14 | | TFH::MARSHALL | hunting the snark | Thu Mar 16 1989 17:37 | 17 |
| re .13:
Thank you Les, for reminding me of that {heavy sarcasm}.
The civil rights act can only come into play if there is a clear and
present pattern of discrimination, i.e. refusing to sell to any Black
or Woman. I still maintain that on an individual basis, the shop keeper
can refuse to sell to anyone. It may be illegal to refuse to sell to
Blacks for the reason that they are Black, but it is not illegal to
refuse to sell to an individual Black for some other reason.
/
( ___
) ///
/
|
| 498.15 | They reserve the right to not sell... | TOOK::TWARREN | Stand in the place where you work... | Fri Mar 17 1989 13:11 | 19 |
| Refusing to sell to someone is very legal. As mentioned before- the store
maintains liability for selling those goods. I worked as a cashier in a
store a few summers ago. If you sell to someone who is under age, or to
someone who looks to you as if that person and the one with him/her are
going to both be the ones to consume it- then you are liable. Not only
can the store have their license revoked, but you yourself can receive
a $1,000 fine (or more), and even a few days in jail. If you sell to
someone who appears intoxicated- you are liable as well.
I was in shaws about 6 months ago, and I knew someone who I had gone
to college with two people ahead of me in line. We spoke briefly, she
made her purchase and left. When I got to the cashier, I showed my
ID, and she told me that she could not sell to me until she saw the
ID of the person I was talking to. Now that's a bit drastic (as it
is now- I don't talk to anyone when I am buying alcohol at Shaws), but
it does happen.
Terri
|