Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    Pat,
      Why don't you take your coworker(s) aside the next day and point
    out the ways in which they are undermining you and request (insist!)
    that they not do it again.  I agree that this sort of thing goes on,
    and think you did the right thing by not confronting him in front
    of customers.  If you were confident that you could sieze control
    you might try it, but easier said than done.  Especially when most
    restaurant personnel will conspire against you.
      One example I see in my work is that certain individuals (men) will 
    question/doubt anything that I tell them.  It has a negative effect on 
    the work environment because I don't bother to tell them things I
    think they might find useful, and for things that I need to tell them 
    I have to spend extra time making sure that I am prepared to answer every
    question that may be asked, have all the background information,
    etc..  These are not people in a supervisory position, but at the
    peer level.
    	Linda
    

    a couple of ideas: take your coworkers aside before dinner and let
    them know that you plan to order wine, pay for the bill, etc. you
    don't necessarily have to get into a political discussion, just
    let them know what you expect to do.
    
    a few years ago, i was a guest at a business dinner hosted by a
    woman. she bounced up to the reception desk and announced "I'm 
    xxx xxx. My party is here. And I'll be getting the check." It was
    pretty effective; basically she'd let the wait-staff know that she
    was in charge before it became an issue.
    
    Hope our ideas help...
    
    Liz

    	RE:  .4
    
    	Settling any doubt about who will be ordering, etc. before
    	the dinner is an excellent suggestion.
    
    	Also, I agree with you that it doesn't necessarily mean getting
    	into a political discussion.
    
    	RE:  .0
    
    	Best wishes on your next customer dinner.  Please let us know
    	how things worked out for you!
    

One other approach might be that since you apparently know who will act how
in such a situation, avoid the issue altogether by not including them in
the social activities. If they have any concerns about this it can be dealt
with offline (and out of the customer's observation) by telling them your
rationale in no uncertain terms.

-Jack

    
    Re: .0
    
    This sounds a lot like a conversation I had with a friend of mine
    a few years ago.  She ran into the same lack of awareness and the same
    set of assumptions from a business partner.  After a couple of times
    out, she talked to him the afternoon before a business dinner and
    let him know that this was her show.  That night, when he started to
    slip back into the "control" position, she only had to politely
    refer to "our conversation this afternoon" to adjust the situation.
    None of the customers seemed to notice, or, if they did, simply saw
    who was closing the deal...  
    
    Ron

    
    	Perhaps this is trully an issue of control, rather than covert 
    sexism. "Women must be controlled, because they carry the solution
    to that which I, the man, cannot control" There's something to ponder
    over during lunch!
    
    	Joe Jas
    

    Y'all have given me a lot of good ideas and insights.  Thanks.
    
    Omitting the offending parties from the guest list is not really an
    option.  After all, this is business, and the participants all have a
    right to expect to be there.  Believe it or not (and the IRS doesn't),
    we even transact business at these things!
    
    The first thing I'm going to do in the future is request when I
    make the reservation that the check be presented to me.  Hopefully
    that will *imply* that the wine list, etc. also be presented to
    me.
    
    When discussing the upcoming dinner with the other Digital attendees,
    I can target the person I believe will seize control and remark
    that "Yeah, I don't mind paying the bill 'cause that means I get
    to order the wine and get what I like!"  If I laugh when I say it,
    hopefully I can make the point without offending.
    
    Once we're there I can see how, with a good dose of humor, I might be
    able to regain control without making the struggle visible to the
    customer. 
    
    The first problem that usually occurs is with the wine list.  Next
    time, as soon as the male picks it up, I think I'll smile sweetly
    and say "Mind if I look at that?"  Once I have it in my clutches,
    I'll either order the wine or pass it to the customer to do the
    honors (depending on whether I feel he or she would be comfortable
    with that). 
    
    I'll definitely let everyone know how it goes next time I'm in this
    situation.  Thanks for all your suggestions!
    
    							Pat

re: .9
    The first thing I'm going to do in the future is request when I
    make the reservation that the check be presented to me.  Hopefully
    that will *imply* that the wine list, etc. also be presented to
    me.
...    
    The first problem that usually occurs is with the wine list.  Next
    time, as soon as the male picks it up, I think I'll smile sweetly
    and say "Mind if I look at that?"  Once I have it in my clutches,
    I'll either order the wine or pass it to the customer to do the
    honors (depending on whether I feel he or she would be comfortable
    with that). 

In general, you would normally mention to the maitre'd that you are
hosting the dinner: they can see you then, but can only hear you
when you make the reservation.

This is normal whenever the "rank" of the individuals is not clear to
the restaurant staff (i.e., when I treat my parents to dinner on
their anniversery). If you are meeting the customer at the restaurant,
you should arrive early and clarify matters.  Otherwise, you would
do so as you are being seated, but outside of the hearing of your
guests.  If the restaurant has their act together, you would be
presented with the wine list, bill, etc.

I would feel uncomfortable saying "mind if I look at that."  The
collegue is *your* guest, too.  (There's a story about the Royal
Family of England having some foreign guest to dinner.  The guest
drank from the finger bowl.  The family, without blinking an eye,
did the same.)

M.

    Pat, I can identify with your situation.  I travel extensively and
    in the pre-convention meetings with the hotel, the person I travel
    with will try and take control.  At first, I sat back and let it
    happen and wonder why, when there was a concern, the hotel would
    call on him....after a couple of times it dawned on me that in the
    pre-con he had "taken over".  He still trys this, but I have learned
    to speak up and "clarify" the answer or concern and will add that
    if there is any question during our function, I will be happy to
    work with the hotel in a resolution.  His new "game" is to ask if
    our selection of food is proper and the quantity enough (let's try
    and dissolve my credibility). I've talked to him about not asking
    that in the meetings as it might be misinterpreted by the hotel
    that we don't have our act together (which we do) and besides, you
    never ask a hotel if you've ordered enough food :-)  His response
    was he has always asked that (no he hasn't) and he will continue
    to ask it (with a pompous grin on his face)....I'm working on a
    solution, but haven't gotten there yet.
    
    I agree with the others that you might want to talk to your colleagues
    before the dinner to avoid any embarassment.
    
    P.
    

    
    
    re .10
    
    Absolutely.
    
    Thank you for levelling the molehill.

re 481.9 

    
>   ... request when I make the reservation that the check be 
    presented to me.  

Restaurants are chaotic and even reservations get lost.  Call the
restaurant a few hours before you arrive and tell them then - same 
day.  Also lets you reconfirm reservation. (Reservation ledgers do not
have much writing space - so this may actually be necessary.)

>   ... will *imply* that the wine list, etc. also be presented to me.
    
Forget *imply*. Explicitly instruct them. Trusting an *imply* for 
something you really want is a crime of optimism.

Hmm? Is it kosher to order the wine before you even get there? So you, 
can announce after you all sit down that "I ordered the wine a few 
days ago. We're having a YumYum '63 and a Wow '78."  I'd be a bit 
flattered if my host had extended herself in this way for me.  

 Meigs

    
    �Hmm? Is it kosher to order the wine before you even get there? 
    
    Don't know about where you are, but it is here (Britain) and using
    a restaurant I know fairly well it is something I have done before.
    Indeed this means that the first bottles of wine can be on the table
    when you arrive, a nice thoughtful touch, that allows pre-dinner
    conversations to continue without unnecesary interruption, and tends
    to curtail the imbiding of Gin-and-Tonic and other strong liquor...
    
    As for somebody else "grabbing" the wine list - if you are knowledgable
    about wine, simply ignore the list, and ask the waiter for whatever
    you want directly (actually asking what year of xxx they have is
    a very good way to show the know-it-all that you understand wine).
    
    /. Ian .\

    Whilst all the parties are male the following is similar. Many years
    ago I worked for a small company and about once a month a group
    of us would go out with the company secretary for dinner.
    
    One of the junior members of the group was a distinct "know-it-all"
    and after three successive dinners when he had grabbed the wine
    list and ordered wine, the Company Secretary finally had had enough.
    
    So when Dave took the wine list again, the C.S. called the wine
    waiter over and said - in a fairly loud voice - "whilst Dave is
    deciding whether to have the house white or the house red, could
    you organise us a couple of bottles of decent trochenbeerenauslese
    for the dessert course, and a bottle of dry fino for an aperitif?"
             
    Dave never ordered wine again ...
    
    /. Ian .\ 

Well, I _really_ like to match wine with the food. Of course, if you have lots
of people ordering a wide range of dishes, then this goes right out the window.
But if everyone is having game, I start with the pinot noirs. And if everyone
is having fish,..., well, you get the picture.
	Mez

    When there are lots of people, it's customary to provide both a
    red and a white.  In that case, ordering in advance is an *excellent*
    way to solve my problem, impress the customer with the amount of
    attention he/she is getting, and (as someone said) cut down on the
    amount of hard liquor that gets consumed before dinner.  I like
    the idea.
    
    But if there are only, say, 4 or 5 people, I usually like to wait
    till everyone has ordered, so I can make some attempt to match the
    wine to the food.  Of course, if one customer orders beef Wellington
    and another orders blackened redfish ... well, then it's hard. 
    But often everyone at the table will order seafood, or everyone
    will order beef or veal or whatever.  In that case it makes more
    sense to order the wine after everyone has ordered dinner.
    
    When the party is small, I think my best tactic in the future will
    be to somehow put a bug into the ear of the person who seats us,
    letting him/her know that I'm hosting the dinner and would like
    to be the one with whom all business is transacted.  Sometimes that's
    easier said than done, at least out of earshot of the guests, but
    it's certainly worth a try.
    
    I'll let y'all know how it goes!
    
    							Pat

    Hi Pat,
    
    I'd like to add another vote for setting things up ahead of time, and
    letting the honchos at the restaurant (including your waitperson) that
    you are hosting the party, and will be paying the bill, and expect to
    be presented with the wine list.  Let them know that it is their job to
    treat you with all due courtesy and respect, and to convey to the
    guests that this is your show, and that the size of the tip is directly
    related to how well that job is done (be gentle and polite, but very
    direct).  Waitpersons have the same tendency (as some of your male
    colleagues) to be condescending to women hosts. 
                                                
    Go by in the afternoon, or stop by the restaurant before you pick
    up your customers, and take the time to set your expectations with
    the restaurant.  Discuss wines with the wine steward, and let him
    or her know that you are knowledgeable about wines.  Find out any
    special recommendations or special vintages that might be available,
    so that you can let your customers (and colleagues) know about "off
    the list" treats.  Do the same thing with the food.  Leave nothing
    to chance or custom.                   
    
    So that's my advice, and it's worked well for me.
    
    Now, about your title subject - undercurrents of sexism.  Is this
    an example?    YOU BET!
    
    Colleagues and waitpersons just infuriate me when they exchange
    smirks, like "Isn't she cute,  she can read a wine list".  There
    is still a great deal of reluctance to accept that women are perfectly
    capable of being in charge of (and taking charge of) many situations.
    
    Good Luck,
    
    Vickie     
                                                              

 re: -1

 It all sounds good and it probably is effective. I just wonder WHY it is 
necessary for a woman to go through all of these extra gyrations to get the
respect and treatment she deserves.

 The Doctah

    	RE:  .19
    
    	> I just wonder WHY it is necessary for a woman to go through
    	> all of these extra gyrations to get the respect and treatment
    	> she deserves.
    
    	See title of topic for explanation.
    

    Pat,
    
    Whenever that type of behavior occurs take the earliest possible
    opportunity (not in front of the customers or in an environment
    where the man will feel humiliated /threatened) and tell him " when
    you did "x" I felt "y".  Further state that while he might not
    understand why you feel that way, you are sure that he will respect
    your feelings and refrain from similar behavior the next time the
    situation arises.
    
    May not work with the neandrathals but I usually find an improvement.

    Pat, I have been on both sides of this one; where I was addressed
    by the staff (waiter) and should not have been, and where I was
    and that was right.
    
    Granted, the staff should look for a queue, but often they don't.
    
    I strongly agree with the suggestion of .1 above - - make it clear
    to the staff who is in charge.
    
    The easiest if have seen in, again, .1 above:
    
    "My party is here now and we are ready to be seated. I will be
    handeling the check too." should be all that is needed.
    
    Should the staff forget as ordering (entrees and wine) proceeds,
    a crisp (yet polite) scowl at the waiter will usually give control
    back to you.
    
    One one occasion, the host (Ms.) flashed her Visa card (almost)
    privately to the waiter. BOY was that message clearly received.
    
    Good luck.
    
    				Charlie.

>    I don't have any solution; I just let it happen and burn
>    up inside.  My husband says I should just firmly and calmly take
>    control, but I'm absolutely paranoid that my customer might see
>    that happening.

Hi Pat!

Have you actually talked to your co-workers about this problem? Do they know 
it's a problem for you?

I have this picture in my mind: your male co-worker discovers this conference 
and writes:

"Boy have I got a problem. There's this woman in our unit who keeps setting up
lunch dates for customers, and we have to do *everything*! She won't even 
order the wine! Help!"

Stephen

    Pat, customers are real people too. They know what is going on.
    They laugh at the same things we do and get angry at the same things
    we do.
    
    Between you and I, I would expect that they would be watching to
    see if you take control, demanding it if necessary. They would, I
    percieve, be concerned if you did NOT take control. How could you
    represent their interests to DEC if you are percieved as timid.
    
    Bottom line.........
    
    	Do it! 
    		Take control.
    
    			Politely, but take it!

    Sorry to be so blunt.
    
    				Charlie.