Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    I think alot of people find it "exciting" dating married people.
    There's the element of "trying not to get caught", kind of like
    when you were a teenager and didn't want your parents to catch you
    and your date necking in the backseat.  Also, I think some married
    person are not happy, but they don't want to get out of their marriage
    for various reasons (children, spouse may be sick, etc.).  Therefore,
    if they have an affair, they're fulfilling their needs and not letting
    down the people that count on them, i.e. children, spouse, etc.
    Just my opinion!!

    I *know* I am going to get a lot of flak on this one, but I just
    can't resist saying---for once---*just* what I think.
    
    Perhaps because they lack personal integrity.  Perhaps because they
    have no understanding of what commitment to their marriage vows
    really means.  Perhaps because they have yet to stop being children:
    children want *what* they want, *when* they want it, and they *want*
    it ***now***.  Perhaps because they had rather deal from the bottom
    of the deck in their personal relationships instead of facing the
    hard issues of looking into their own inner emptiness.
    
    Marilyn

    Re .2, Wouldn't those be reasons why a married person might date
    someone else?  Not reasons why a single person might date a married
    person?  This isn't intended as "flak", but I think life is too
    complicated to assume that any married person who has an affair
    lacks personal integrity.  (No one can know what goes on the deep,
    dark recesses of another person's soul, right :-)?)  I think some
    people are desperately unhappy and lonely, and because of this they
    reach out for things that may help them keep from going over the
    edge.  If one of those "things" happens to be somebody else's husband
    or wife, then it's not fair and it's not right, but it may mean
    survival for somebody.  I realize that everyone who commits adultery
    does not have such deep reasons, but I just want to offer the opinion
    that everyone may not be a self-centered womanizer or slut either.
     
    As for why a single person might agree to date a married person,
    one reason might be that they consider the married person to be
    just too attractive to pass up.  They may not have anything going
    on in their life at the moment, they may be lonely, craving affection,
    and then this incredibly attractive person who happens to be married,
    makes themselves available.  It's tough to have integrity when you're
    starving for affection.  Believe me, I do sympathize with the married
    person's spouse (and in their place I would be hurt) but I see it
    as a result of how complicated life is.
    
    Lorna
     

    My best friend has a problem (fate?  destiny?) that most of the
    guys that ask her out turn out to be married.  Of course they don't
    tell her until she is so into the relationship that it would hurt
    her to turn away.  She doesn't look for them, they look for her!
    Even though she is pretty (with a great figure), she has a low self
    esteem, and she jumps at the chance to go out with a "great looking
    guy".  She has never broken up a marriage, though.
    
    K.C.

    I think .4 has hit a major reason why either side would consider
    an extra-marital affair.  Low self-esteem, leading to a need to
    feel 'pretty', 'special', 'attractive', or whatever can lead to
    some very disfunctional behavior.  It does wind up being disfunctional,
    too, because the single person constantly interacting with the
    essentially unavailable ends up feeling worse - 'I don't deserve
    anything better'.
    
    Whatever the excuse the married person uses, it is just that, an
    excuse.  It is essentially immature behavior - but I approach it
    on a 'more to be pitied than censured' level.  We all grow up at
    different rates, and some of us grow up more easily than others.
    
    Alison
    

    The topic referred to in .0 is in Womannotes-V2
    113 - Dating Married Women
    
    Also, of interest, are the following in Womannotes-V1
    234 - Love Affair
    349 - Cheating
    834 - If Your Spouse Were Having An Affair
    
    -Jody
    

    I've been told by several women who dated married men that married
    men  are "safe". He won't insist on seeing her every minute and he
    won't  ask  her  to marry him. He may also be more established and
    willing  to spend money on her when men her own age don't have the
    money.  Are  these  just  rationalizations? I don't know, but I've
    heard them several times.

--David

    
    Part of the reason why  a single woman would become involved with
    a married man is statistics.  There aren't enough men to go around.
    Sometimes for a single woman feels a relationship with a married
    man is better than no relationship at all
    I have been single for the past 20+ years and as we get older the
    odds get greater.  I have never (knowingly) become involved with
    a married man, but I have been in many situations where I could
    have.   The statistics state that(at my age) my chances of having a
    monogamous relationship are some where around 1:50 and my chances 
    for marriage are around 1:100, IMO this makes a relationship with a 
    married man that much more attractive. 

    I agree with .1 who said that a lot of people find it "exciting" dating
    married people. The stigma attached to dating a married person makes it
    quite appealing to many people, it is considered by many to be the
    ultimate sin. 
    
    karen

    I know this wasn't the question ..but, If my husband had an affair
    I would blame him. Not her. He's the one who took the vow, not her.
    
    Kate
    

    
    There's an expression out there in the world that goes something
    like "all the nice men are married".   I have no intention of ever
    "dating" a married man, but I do find that the nicest men are the
    ones who are married.  (IMHO, I think it's marriage and being 
    married that makes them that way.)
    
    CQ

    I'm glad to see that the responses here have been "gender neutral",
    despite the peculiar way the original question was worded.

    I agree with many of the previous replies, in particular Marilyn
    Irlbacher's.  I am not married now (though I do think I'm nice,
    Christine!), but when I was married, I would never have considered
    cheating on my wife.  I took the concept and commitment of marriage
    very seriously (and still do).  And though I am now single, that
    view carries forth, and I would not let myself get involved with
    a married woman.
    
    What I can't help you with is the "why" some people do this.  It's
    just utterly foreign to me.  But I have offered the opinion when
    this question came up in HUMAN_RELATIONS that cheating is a symptom
    of an ill relationship, not a disease in itself.  However, someone
    who gives in to the temptation to cheat has in effect chosen to
    take the easy way out and walk away from their problems, leaving
    their partner to pick up the pieces behind them.  It isn't pretty.
    
    				Steve

    re:.12
    
    Perhaps it's not either a cause or a symptom, but a synergistic
    combination of both.
    
    I tend to agree with Lorna. It's too easy to just condemn a married
    person for not "taking their marriage vows seriously enough" without
    knowing all of the facts. Perhaps they have an open marriage. Perhaps
    it *is* a disease, akin to kleptomania, where the person knows it's
    wrong but can't "help themselves". Perhaps it's a crying out for
    help, akin to most suicide threats.
    
    Perhaps not, but perhaps.
    
    --- jerry

    
    	Why is always a good question to ask.
    
    I think it may have something to do with someone's issues of control.
    When someone feels they must control or be in control compulsively,
    and at the same time they just happen to get their self worth from the 
    outside, this kind of thing can occur.
    
    Say, for example, a woman decides to have an affair with a married
    man. The guy's married, so she knows that, much more so than for
    a single guy, he's got someone else that he'll inevitably get
    tied up with. So from a "control" standpoint, he's not as much to
    contend with as the single guy would be - he has this other person
    who very likely still takes care of some of his needs. He's "safe".
    
    As far as obtaining self worth in an other directed manner, it's
    fairly clear that the "married guy" would be risking far more "chips"
    than the "single guy" in accepting a proposal. People like it when 
    you're willing to take a risk for them, it's approving of their self.
    The approval value one get's from another is in "direct proportion" 
    to the amount of risk that other is willing to take. Obviously.
    
    Now, for the man, just take the same situation I've just described
    and switch the context from female to male. It works the same way.
    Both issues taken together, having an affair with someone who's married
    is a very attractive possibility for some people. Like having your
    cake an eat it too, or whatever. 
    
    Control compulsion and other directedness are symptoms of family
    dysfunctionality. That "affairs with married people" is so prevalent 
    shows us the prevalence of something else.
    
    	Joe Jas
                         

    Some women just like to take things away from other women because
    they can.  (This can go both ways).  Have you ever heard the song
    "Jolene"?
    
    One time my hub and I were walking along the beach, arm in arm,
    obviously "a couple".  This "woman" is walking towards us.  She
    was blonde, leggy, figure-that-would-stop-a-truck, wearing a leopard
    pattern bikini.  As she walked by us, she made a grab at my husband.
    (Guess where she grabbed!)
    
    My husband slapped her arm away, and we walked on.  Believe it or
    not, he was more furious than I was!
    
    K.C.

    re.11  that also holds true in reverse - all the nicest 
    women seem to be married. And you're right, being in love
    and in a good relationship makes them that way. Now if 
    only it was me.....
    

I, too, agree with .2 and .12? that the fundemental issue is one
of integrity.  I'm not saying that all sorts of issues aren't piled
on top of that one, but at the bottom of the heap is the question of
*  what are my values
*  who am I and what do I stand for
*  do I have the courage to look at reasons why I ended up with a married
   man/woman.
*  etc.

I cringed at the person's friend who "always ends up with married men
and doesn't know it until she's in too far to be hurt." (I'm paraphrasing
from memory, obviously.)  I strikes me that in cases like this, there is
a lot of denial about the woman's responsiblity for getting in these
relationships.  After all, if she were really commited to avoiding relationships
with married men, wouldn't it be as easy as asking on the first date, and
following up with a phone call (or something like that)?

I know that I am a married-soon-to-be-divorced woman.  And I have taken a
stand not to date until my relationship with my husband is cleaned up so
that no one has to get involved with me "a married woman."  I think its
a question of personal responsibility, that's all.

One who's been there, believe me!
Victoria

    To defend my friend, I have to say that she isn't too bright.  She
    is so flattered to have the attention of a "gorgeous guy", that
    she forgets to ask.  Like I said before, I don't understand why
    she would think like that.  Whenever we went anywhere together as
    teenagers, it was her that got the whistles.
    
    Lately she told me about a guy that she liked (another "gorgeous
    guy"), who not only admitted that he was married outright, but also
    admitted to dating another girl.  For the first time in the 10 years
    that we have known each other, I told her to STAY AWAY from this
    one!  From all of the things she told me about him (and they are
    too numerous to list here), she took him as "kinda neat", and I
    took him as "total slease".  
    
    I have never understood why she was like this.  As I said before,
    she doesn't look to go out with married men.  It literally just
    happens.  And yes, with the exception of this one guy now (who she
    did turn down after my words), if she finds out right away that
    the guy is married, she just says no.
    
    K.C.

	(I don't believe that I am doing this.)

	I have been married twice and divorced twice, I am in a
	long-term relationship now (albeit a very loosely committed 
	one).

	I had never dated/been interested in a person who was
	already in a committed relationship or who was ever married.
	And I was very sanctimonious about it.  That is up until a 
	year and a half ago.  Since then I have had to walk 
	in those shoes and face the real options of getting 
	involved with someone who is not "free" of commitments.

	If someone makes the choice to become involved with
	someone who is not "free" then I truly hope that they
	are honest with themselves about it.  Because it can be
	very painful.

	I didn't get involved because of integerity but because
	I could not stand the idea of being second on anyone list,
	I would rather not be there at all.

	I have to agree with Pat J. about the numbers game.  There
	are fewer and fewer "free" men around and if a woman wants
	to have a relationship with a man chances are he is married,
	separated or divorced.  So more and more women will be faced
	with the problem of dealing with either having no one or
	someone who is already in a relationship.  Neither are good
	choices.

	_peggy

		(-)
		 |
			We sometimes make the right decisions
			for the wrong reasons.


	

I've been having the greatest dreams lately ;^},

But even in a sound sleep, when I'm dreaming about my friend's husband,
I always turn away, saying, "I couldn't do this to {her name}!"  

So much for affairs with married men!

Victoria_who_must_be_sick.

	

    I am entering this anonymously for a member of the file.  If you have
    any comments you'd like me to forward to them, please send mail.
    
    -Jody
    
---------------------------------------------------------------------------    
Talking about affairs...

I had a rude awakening last night - the man I've been seeing for a year
told me he had slept with two other women over the past six months.  We had
agreed that this was not an "exclusively monogamous" relationship and that
if we wanted to do things with other people it was okay (but I didn't
expect it to happen often)  I had asked him specifically to tell me 
if anything sexual happened with him and anyone else.  I wanted to know 
_then_ when it happened.  I wanted his honesty.
    
One of the women was in a committed relationship.  He of course was
in a committed relationship (with me) - although we can see other people
we're still pretty serious.  The women were mutual friends of ours.
    
I feel betrayed, I feel lied to I feel incredibly hurt.  Only the hurt has
nowhere to go.  It's not like we had a full and total commitment but
still.  He didn't hold up his end of the promise and although the words
would have been painful to hear when it happened it was far more painful
now.  For the record his excuse was that he didn't want to hurt me he had
intended to keep it secret forever.  And the lie was working - that's the
funny part.  The lie worked better than the truth.  We were up until 4 in
the morning talking about it.  I was glad he told me because I feel the
longer he had waited the less I could ever trust him again.  

We agreed that if we ever begin to feel strong emotions about someone else
(rather than just recreational sex which this apparently was) we'll tell
one another.  Otherwise we're on our own.  Part of me is afraid that I'll
be up late nights wondering who he's having sex with but hopefully this
feeling will pass.  I'm not sure whether it's better to know everything or
some things or nothing - but I think we've come to some sort of
understanding. 

If you cheat don't take the easy way out, please.  Be honest.  Your spouse
or spouse-equivalent deserves your honesty.  And if it hurts now it may
well hurt more later when the truth comes out (_never_ is a very long time).

-anon.

    One more plea...
    
    AIDS and other STD's are very real threats. Especially if you're in a
    non-monogamous relationship, please, please follow safe(r) sex
    practices. Talk to your partners about their sexual history. Be honest
    about your own. Use condoms. It's embarrassing. It's hard to get
    used to. But please, take care of yourselves.
    
    Liz (who is not a mom in real life)