Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    I am just thrilled for her.  I think it shows that there is hope
    for all women.  If the Catholic Church ever decides that women are
    something other than second class citizens, I will probably decide
    to return to being a Catholic.  At present, I simply cannot reconcile
    the male domination with my womanhood.
    
    I had tears of joy in my eyes when I watched Barbara Harris being
    ordained on TV this past weekend.  If only the rest of the so-called
    traditional religions would get with it and recognize women for
    the greatness that they can bring to religion.  Then there would
    truly be rejoicing!!!!
    
    Sue
    

    I am thrilled for the church and for the implications thereof.
    
    Finally, a woman is in a decision making place in the church.
    
    As Paul respected Phoebe for her ministry, so the Episcopal
    church now respects Barbara Harris for prophetic ministry.
    
     Mike\
    

    
    
    I watched the whole cerimony on the TV.  I had tears in my eyes
    for quite a bit of it.  It was so moving, and it really struck
    a chord in me.  I'm very glad for Barbara.
    
    However, I have a few questions on the Episcopal church.
    I was raised in a strict Irish Catholic family, and unfortunately
    never really given a chance to explore other religions or
    even find out what they were all about.  I have always questioned
    my religion much to the dismay of my teachers and family.
    But I am not one to accept things without questioning them.
    
    When I lived at my parents house I was more or less forced
    into attending church.  Many of my friends were brought up
    the same way.  Once I left home, I stopped going to church
    on a regular basis because I felt I did not need to be in
    a church to talk to God.  I did go on Christmas and Easter
    and whenever I was at my mom's house.  
    
    But I don't beleive in much of the beliefs of the Catholic
    church.  I feel sorry that the Pope has not allowed women
    to take a more active part in the catholic church.  Unfortunately
    there has been a steady decline in the number of new priests
    and this in my opinion has hurt the church.  It needs to
    get new people with new, fresh ideas.  I am not alone on the
    way that I think on this issue.  Many of my friends feel the
    same as I do.  
    
    Could anyone tell me the differences between the Catholic
    faith and the Episcopal faith.  I know they are practically
    the same, but I would like to know the differences.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Michele

the essential differences:

1. The Episcopal Church does not recognize the authority of the Pope 
over all other bishops  (episcopal means "of bishops", the method of 
ecclesiastical organization)

2. The Episcopal Church does not believe in transubstantiation.  

    3.  And another - married clergy.
    
    RE .4  #2 Ahh yes, the Black Rubric (well, a degree in English history
    	      has to be good for something...)

    
    						cathy

    There is a Catholic Theology conference that discusses the Roman
    Catholic church and several closely related churchs. The idea of
    female clergy has been discussed there in the past. Contact Brian
    AITG::MAHONEY for membership and location.
    
    			Alfred

    
    I was lucky enough to be able to attend Barbara Harris' ordination
    and consecration this past weekend.  It was WONDERFUL!  I felt like
    I was participating in history, and felt proud of the progress my
    church has made.  Did anyone happen to videotape the tv broadcast?
    If so, please send me some mail - I'd like to get a copy of the
    tape.
    
    Rita
    

    Where did Bishop Harris come from?(location)Wasn't she a business
    person at one time?  Isn't she divorced?
    
    re:.4 What is transub..Whatever?

         
    Kate
    

In recent years, a joint Anglican-Roman commission has reached agreement on all
important matters of faith.

Anglicans recognize the Bishop of Rome as the first Bishop of the world, but do
not recognize his authority over the worldwide church.

Transubstantiation is the doctrine that the bread and wine of the Eucharist are
transubstantiated from bread and wine to actual human flesh and blood.

The Roman Catholic Church and the Anglicans (Episcopalians are Anglicans) have
reached agreement on this subject.  Both branches of the Catholic Church now
teach that the bread and wine do indeed become the Body and Blood of Christ,
and are not just symbolic of the Body and Blood.

Exactly what that means (i.e. does it mean that the elemental structure changes)
remains a mystery of faith.

/john

    
    Transubstantiation is the doctrine that the bread and wine used
    in Communion is transformed into the true presence of Christ (body
    and blood), even though their appearance doesn't change.

True Presence is not Transubstantiation.

Most Protestants believe that the Eucharistic is only a memorial of the Last
Supper.

Catholics (Roman, Anglican(Episcopalian), and Orthodox) and some Protestants
believe in the True Presence, which means that Christ is present in the species
in a special, sacramental way.

In addition, Anglicans and Roman Catholics also both believe that the species
do indeed _become_ the Body and Blood of Christ in a way which is a mystery of
faith.

Transubstantiation is an attempt to explain a Supernatural Mystery in Natural
terms, by saying that the molecular structure of the bread changes to have the
molecular structure of Christ's human flesh and that the structure of the wine
changes to the structure of Christ's human blood.  However, your senses are
unable to detect this.

Transubstantiation is _possibly_ fact, but neither Anglicans nor Roman Catholics
are required to believe that it is the actual answer to the mystery of the True
Presence and the Sacramental transformation of the species into the Body and
Blood of Christ.  As a mystery, there is no answer for us while on this earth.

/john

     
  When I saw the front page of the Boston Sunday Globe, I had filled
  up with tears. I don't "do" religion much but I was thrilled to see
  Bishop's Harris' picture.  Never thought I'd see the day when a woman
  would be wearing a mitre.
    
  am
      
    

    
    re: .11
    
    > Catholics (Roman, Anglican(Episcopalian), and Orthodox) and some
    > Protestants...
    
    Episcopalians are not part of Catholicism.  The Episcopal Church is of
    the Protestant religions, but is more resembling of the Catholic Church
    than are the others.
    
    re: .8
    
    Yes, Bishop Harris is divorced.
    
    re: .3
    
    Most of the differences between the Catholic and Episcopal religions
    that I can think of have been answered in previous replies.  The only
    other difference I can think of is in the amount of emphasis placed
    upon the worship of the Virgin Mary.  If I'm not mistaken, Catholic
    teachings place more emphasis on the Virgin Mary than do the
    Episcopals.  We are taught to worship her but it is not emphasized as
    strongly.
    
    
    I'm very happy to see Bishop Harris elected.  The Episcopal Church has
    been ordaining more and more women over the few years.  In fact, the 
    church I attend has enjoyed a woman priest for the past year in interim 
    while we seek a full-time priest.  The delegates to the Episcopal Diocese
    have been women for the last several years, and the layreaders for Sunday
    services are women 50% of the time.  If it isn't obvious by now, this is
    one Episcopalian proud to be so.
    
    Beckie

re Note 443.13 by ATPS::GREENHALGE "Mouse"
>re: .11
>    
>    > Catholics (Roman, Anglican(Episcopalian), and Orthodox) and some
>    > Protestants...
>    
>    Episcopalians are not part of Catholicism.  The Episcopal Church is of
>    the Protestant religions, but is more resembling of the Catholic Church
>    than are the others.

Anglicans are not part of Roman Catholicism, but the three branches of the
Catholic Church are the Romans, the Anglicans, and the Orthodox.  The Anglican
Church in China uses the name "The Holy Catholic Church."

The *only* Anglican national church which has the word "Protestant" in its
formal name is PECUSA, and there have been a number of attempts to remove it.

/john

    Interesting. When I was growing up Roman Catholic, we were taught that
    the only Catholic Church was ours. There were different so-called
    rites, the Roman Rite and the Byzantine Rite, but every Christian
    religion that was not Catholic, was Protestant (or heretical. I was
    just a kid, I may have misunderstood this. Or perhaps I've just
    remembered it wrong. I've been out of touch with this church for two
    decades.) 
    
    Anyways, now that you say Anglicans consider themselves Catholic, did
    they always? Now that they are in close agreement with the Church of
    Rome, I wonder, are Roman Catholics now teaching that Anglicans are
    also Catholics or is this viewpoint limited to Anglicans? 
    
    The Anglicans opposed this particular ordination, didn't they? I
    understood they oppose the ordination of all women. Does this now
    separate Episcopalians from Anglicans sufficiently to make them
    non-Catholic, if indeed they were ever considered to be Catholic? (By
    the way, my dictionary defines an Episcopalian as "of or relating to
    the Protestant Episcopal Church, representing the Anglican communion in
    the US.") 
        

    The word Catholic means universal actually. I don't recall my
    theology enough right now, but when you read general text books
    on theology they list the Catholic churches as the 'Roman' Catholic
    the Greek Orthodox, the Russian Orthodox and the Anglican/Episcopalian.
    We were brought up to understand that the "Roman" Catholics were
     the narrow ones...that they had decreed that they were the only
    'real' Christians, and shut us out, but we accepted them. The
    Roman Catholic church has now accepted most of the Catholic and
    Protestant churches as being 'real' Christians.
    
    Ultimately, a Prtestant church, 'protested' they separated from
    the Catholic church on matters of doctrine. The other 'catholic'
    churches, did not separate on matters of doctrine, but on issues
    of national sovereinity...which was the reason for the separation
    of the English Catholic church originally. The Anglican church
    or the Episcopal church, kept most of the Catholic doctrine but
    incorported some protestant ideas...hence the anglican-protestant
    church.
    
    Bonnie

    
    If you check the inside cover of the Book of Common Prayer used by the
    Episcopal Church, you will see that it reads "The Episcopal Protestant
    Church of the United States".  At least mine does.
    
    FWIW - this prayer book was given to me and signed by Bishop Burgess of
    the Episcopal Diocese upon my confirmation.  I think it very unlikely a
    Bishop of the Episcopal Church would go around giving out prayer books
    that said we were Protestant if we were not.
    
    
    

    
    
    	Re .8
    
    My understanding is that Bishop Harris was a former VP at Sun Oil.
    
    

>    If you check the inside cover of the Book of Common Prayer used by the
>    Episcopal Church, you will see that it reads "The Episcopal Protestant
>    Church of the United States".  At least mine does.

Well, actually, it says "The Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States
of America."

But that is a name only, and has nothing to do with the fact that unlike
Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians, Church of Christ, Church
of God, and all the Protestant Denominations, the good ship PECUSA

	- remained a part of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church,
	- kept the Catholic Faith (including all seven sacraments: Baptism,
	  Confirmation, the Eucharist, Holy Orders, Matrimony, Penance, and
	  Extreme Unction),
	- has Deacons, Priests, and Bishops in Apostolic succession,
	- has monastic orders (both monks living in monasteries and nuns
	  living in convents), and is not Protestant, its name notwithstanding.

>    FWIW - this prayer book was given to me and signed by Bishop Burgess of
>    the Episcopal Diocese upon my confirmation.  I think it very unlikely a
>    Bishop of the Episcopal Church would go around giving out prayer books
>    that said we were Protestant if we were not.

Confusing, yes.  But true.  Talk to your parish priest.  Or discuss it with
other Episcopalians (such as Bonnie).

    But the Episcopalians are indeed also Protestant. As far
    as I know the correct name of the US branch of the Anglican
    church is the 'Protestant Episcopal Chruch'. This is largely
    an out growth of the English civil war when the Protestants
    and the Catholics fought. 
    
    a little history here...Henry the VIII separated the then
    'church' of England i.e. there was only one church, no
    denominations or accepted branches.. due to *political*
    pressure. i.e. his wife bore him no son and he needed
    an heir. His wife was the daughter of the King of Spain
    and the niece of the Pope. The Pope, to put the history
    very simply, refused the divorce which was granted to
    most other heads of state and nobility as a matter of course,
    because of the tie to Spain. Spain at the time wished
    to include England in her Empire (c.f. the Spainish Armada).
    
    So the Pope issued edicts to the priests and bishops of England
    and told them to disobey the King.
    
    Which then brings this whole controversy into the relm of
    of nationalism. At the time the masses of the people followed
    the word of their parish priest 'religiously'. They truely
    believed that the priest or bishop or pope could send them to
    Hell..and they sincerely believed in heaven and hell even if
    they weren't very sophisticated religously in other ways.
    So they did what the priest told them to. So for the Pope to
    give orders to Englishmen, meant that the average citizen,
    burger, noble, or pleb who was a faithful Christian..and
    that was the vast majority of the population...would be taking
    orders from the enemy of the King of the land!
    
    After the death of Henry England was torn back and forth in
    re religion and national alliances. Henry's older daughter
    Mary took the nation back into the Roman fold and losed the
    Inquisition onto Engish soil. During the long reign of Elizabeth,
    things stabilized into something close to what the current
    Episcopal church now professes..but the final structure wasn't
    established until the compromise after the Cromwellian revolution
    and the restoration of the monarachy under Charles the second.
    (Note of interest... the only Saint indepedantly cannonized by
    the Anglican church - to my knowledge - is Charles the first
    who was beheaded largely (as I recall) for his stand on religon
    and kingship, and is now included in the pantheon of the saints
    in the Anglican but not the RC church as 'saint charles the martyr"
    
    Bonnie

>As far as I know the correct name of the US branch of the Anglican
>church is the 'Protestant Episcopal Chruch'.

It is "The Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States of America."  But
many people have been trying to remove the word "Protestant," and it seems that
at least on the title page of the new Book of Common Prayer, this has already
happened.

>This is largely an out growth of the English civil war when the Protestants
>and the Catholics fought. 

Right.  But the "Catholics" were Church of England (Anglicans) let by St.
Charles, King and Martyr, and the Protestants were Puritans led by Cromwell
and helped by Scottish presbyterians.

During the Protectorate, Christianity was designated the "public profession"
of the nation, but religious toleration was extended only to such Protestant
groups as Independents, Presbyterians, Baptists, and some Puritan sects, but
not to Roman Catholics and Anglicans.

In the years after the restoration of the monarchy, the Anglican church
agreed to the Thirty-Nine articles out of political expediency.  Much of
the Protestant nature of the Anglican church is contained in these articles,
which no longer have any force.  For example, the XXVIIIth Article forbids
the Catholic practice of reserving the Sacrament, which Protestants consider
blasphemous.  Yet the current Book of Common Prayer talks about reserving
part of the Sacrament consecrated on Maundy Thursday for use in the Mass of
the Pre-Sanctified on Good Friday.

/john

    Thanks John, I got my history a little off.
    
    Bonnie

    
    John,
    
    We're both right.  As I understand it, the Episcopal Church is both 
    Protestant and Catholic.  Under the reign of Queen Elizabeth I, the 
    Episcopalian Church became known as a bridge between the Roman Catholic
    and Protestant religions because the Episcopal Church incorporated
    Catholic litergy and Protestant theology.
    
    The Anglo-Catholic (the High Church) is the Episcopal Church you speak
    of; however, the Protestant Episcopal (the Low Church) is the church I
    speak of.  The differences between the two have to do with the wishes
    to rejoin the Roman Catholic church.  The Anglo-Catholic wishes to
    become one with Rome and the other does not.  The Episcopal Church is
    catholic, but with small "c" to represent 'universal'.
    
    The major differences are: the Episcopal Church believes in the four 
    corners:
    		1.  experience
    		2.  right reason
    		3.  scripture
    		4.  tradition
    It is this that allows the ordination of women such as Barbara Harris. 
    It is our belief that these priests, bishops, etc., are in Apostolic
    succession of St. Peter.
    
    The Catholic Church believes in:
        1.  Scripture
        2.  Tradition
    
    So, you see, we are really both correct.  You and I, as Episcopalians, 
    seem to have differing opinion based on the beliefs of the High Church &
    the Low Church.
    
    Regards,
    Beckie

Well, Beckie, I'm glad this discussion got you to go do a little bit of study
into your own church.  I hope you continue to learn more about the internal
differences within the Anglican Communion; you'll see that the High and Low
Church are much closer together than your reply indicates, and certainly much
closer together than any two Protestant denominations.  You certainly won't
find a sign on the door indicating whether a parish is "High" or "Low."

Low Churchmen (oops, should I say Low Churchpersons in this conference?) often
are surprised to find out that they are really Catholics, not Protestants.

The "Protestant Theology" that you speak of during QEI's time is known as the
Anglican reformation.  Rather than actually moving away from Catholic theology,
the Anglican Church rejected some abusive practices which were infecting the
Roman Church.  The Roman Church underwent almost all of those same changes at
a later date during their own reformation.

There are no longer any theological differences between Anglicans and Romans.
There are differences on the authority of the Church hierarchy.

There continue to be substantial theological differences between Anglicans and
Protestants.

Don't you find it interesting that if a minister from any one of the Protestant
denominations decides s/he wants to become an Episcopal priest an ordination is
required?  If a Protestant wants to become an Episcopalian, confirmation is
required.

However, Roman Catholics and Orthodox are received into the Episcopal Church
without any need for Confirmation or Ordination.

/john

    
    Well, John, you learned something about the Episcopal Church as well. 
    You also learned that you were not 100% correct, nor was I but I'm a
    big enough person to admit so.
    
    Beckie

In fourteen years at DEC I've learned that noone ever admits being wrong on a
religious issue!


I'll only admit to having ignored one meaning of "Protestant" -- that being
protesting against the Roman Church's hierarchy and certain abuses that arose
(temporarily) in the Roman Church during the 15th-18th century.

And I deliberately ignored that meaning to make my point that the Episcopal
Church is not "Protestant" as the word is normally used to refer to the
theology of the various Protestant denominations.  From a theological
standpoint, the Episcopal Church is Catholic with a capital C.

And, as the new Prayer Book shows, work is under way to change PECUSA to ECUSA.

/john

    RE: confirmation and ordination...
    
    Take this for what it's worth.  Any baptized Christian can be
    considered part of the Episcopal Church if they choose to do so.  
    Some offices in the Church are restricted to those
    who have been confirmed or received, but (strictly speaking) a
    practicing Episcopalian need not be confirmed.  
    
    Also for what it's worth...the Episcopal Church recognizes the
    ordination and or confirmation ceremonies of the Roman Catholic
    Church.  If a RC priest wishes to become an Episcopal priest he
    need not be "re-ordained", only received.  The same is true of a
    confirmant of the RC Church.    
    
                                             

I think there are a lot of similarities and a lot of differences between the
Episcopal and Catholic churches.  (My father's family was Catholic and my
mother's family [father & sisters] was Presbyterian, so they "met in the middle"
and married and raised my brother & I in my mother's mother's family's church,
Episcopal.)  My father got received; my mother had to get confirmed.  Anyway,
there are some important differences, and I think we're Protestant and still
"catholic" (but not Catholic), mainly due to apostolic succession (but not
answering to the Pope).

Most pointedly, I haven't heard anyone telling us to use only the rhythm method
of birth control.  And also there's the issue of women priests and now bishops.

While it is a part of the "Anglican communion" (but not the Anglican church)
the Episcopal church can do things that the Archbishop of Canterbury (not
to mention the Pope!) might not approve of.  Just as the Anglican church
hasn't been under control of the Pope in several centuries, the Episcopal
church hasn't been under control of the English monarch or church for about
200 years.  The preface to the 1798 edition of the BCP is still in the 1979
edition and says "Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States of America." 
(The preface mentions the need for a new prayer book due to recent political
events.)  I think that the name change on the BCP title page ("The Episcopal
Church") just reflects the general "cleanup & modernization" of the language
between the 1928 and 1979 editions (which is not the only change, of course).
I also don't attach any significance to the fact that they left "in the USA"
off of the title page, too.

(Note: According to a commentator during the ordination, The Prayer Book
Society, which opposed the ordination, was formed to oppose the revision
of the 1928 edition, and continues to oppose other liberalizing changes.
I see some of their point on linguistic issues -- I got kind of used to
saying archaic things like "It is meet and right so to do" -- but I draw
the line right there.)