[Search for users]
[Overall Top Noters]
[List of all Conferences]
[Download this site]
| Title: | ARCHIVE-- Topics of Interest to Women, Volume 2 --ARCHIVE |
| Notice: | V2 is closed. TURRIS::WOMANNOTES-V5 is open. |
| Moderator: | REGENT::BROOMHEAD |
|
| Created: | Thu Jan 30 1986 |
| Last Modified: | Fri Jun 30 1995 |
| Last Successful Update: | Fri Jun 06 1997 |
| Number of topics: | 1105 |
| Total number of notes: | 36379 |
418.0. "I'm not sure if this has been posted " by AZUR::HACHE () Fri Jan 27 1989 08:02
-----------------------------------------------------------------
January 25, 1989 Message 1817 from Henry Mensch
The following is copyright The New York Times.
INDIA STUDYING `ACCIDENTAL' DEATHS OF HINDU WIVES --Barbara Crossette
NEW DELHI, India -- All over India, where Hindu wives traditionally
burned on their husbands' funeral pyres, brides in recent years have
been dying in their husband's homes in fires that were called
``accidents'' until women's organizations began to demand an
official accounting.
Rani Rajeswari burned to death one Saturday night in December. She
was 25 and died so suddenly and silently that her three sleeping
children, one a baby three months old, did not awake.
The newspapers called it a suicide. It was one of several such
deaths that day, and it merited a paragraph. Each day there are
more.
``This was not a case of suicide,'' Mrs. Rajeswari's cousin, Balbir
Singh, said. ``It was murder.''
Sitting on a cot in his spartan two-room apartment, Singh, a clerk
in India's Supreme Court, told an increasingly familiar story of a
marriage gone wrong, a quarrel, and then death. The family believes
Rani's husband tried to suffocate or strangle her, poured kerosene
over her and set her on fire.
The New Delhi police inspector conducting the investigation,
Harbands Lal, says he now automatically orders an autopsy in
suspicious domestic deaths, as required by law.
Advisers to Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi say he is determined to
protect and improve the condition of Indian women, forcing changes
in social and religious attitudes that have allowed bride-burning,
or sati, to go on.
Despite a number of laws aimed at protecting women and requiring
investigations of suspicious deaths, acts of violence against women
seem to be increasing.
In addition to burnings, women are also found hanged, or poisoned.
Female infanticide continues to be practiced, according to news
reports -- including in the family of a prominent Rajasthan
politician where no girls have been recorded born in 40 years.
Amniocentesis, barred in only one state to determine an unborn
child's sex, is followed in the rest of the country by female
feticide, women's groups say.
``Let me be frank with you,'' said Pramila Dandavate, a pioneer in
the women's rights movement for a decade.
``We are a feudal society. Basically, we don't believe that people
are equal. Our education system does not teach respect for women.
``Contact with Western culture has made us greedy,'' Mrs.
Dandavate, a former opposition member of Parliament and founder of
the Women's Vigilance Committee.
``We have lost our sense of justice. We have not remained Indians.
But neither are we Westernized,'' she said. ``We do not understand
equality.''
The result, she said, is the emergence in India of ``a feudal being
with a materialistic attitude.'' Most marriages are arranged by
families, and a man who does not marry for love learns he can marry
for possessions.
For this man, and his family, a woman becomes the ticket to a few
imported watches, a stereo, a refrigerator, a motorbike or a car
through the system of dowry.
A dowry, once a way a father could endow a Hindu daughter with
material goods when she could not inherit property, has evolved into
a reward paid to a man and his family to take a woman off her
parents' hands.
The dowry system, which has also degenerated into extortion that
goes on long after marriage, is outlawed in India, but it thrives.
``The number of things people desire to have in their own houses but
cannot afford, they now believe they can use the opportunity of a
son's marriage to get,'' Mrs. Dandavate said.
``In marrying a son, they can fulfill all their unfulfilled
ambitions. The woman has become a kind of a commodity,'' she said.
``In her name people can get any number of things.''
The fatalities of recently married women are often collectively
known as ``dowry deaths'' -- where a husband kills a wife for
failing to deliver on a request, or she kills herself to spare her
father further hardship -- although they cover all kinds of domestic
discord in a country where not only arranged, but also forced
marriages are still the norm.
Asked recently in Parliament to quantify this phenomenon, which
began to draw attention about a decade ago when the number of deaths
in fires reported as ``kitchen accidents'' started rising in
northern India, India's home affairs minister, Palaniappan
Chidambaram, said that registered cases of dowry deaths nationwide
numbered 999 in 1985, 1,319 in 1986 and 1,786 in 1987.
Women's groups say that total will be surpassed easily this year --
and that in a country of 800 million people, most of whom do not
report domestic violence, the real numbers are far higher.
Among the women's organizations that challenge these figures is the
Ahmedabad Women's Action Group, in Gujarat state, which says that
their research shows that 1,000 women may be burned alive annually
in that state alone. Gujarat is the birthplace of Mohandas K.
Gandhi.
Some deaths are in fact suicides. Women forced into marriage and
harassed by their in-laws poison themselves or jump from buildings
or into wells.
In separate incidents this fall, two young physicians at the same
New Delhi hospital injected themselves with lethal doses of drugs
because they could no longer bear seeing the pressures exerted on
their fathers to provide more and more goods to greedy husbands.
On Nov. 4, in the southern, very progressive state of Kerala, four
sisters hanged themselves and left this note:
``Our parents are not yet to pay fully for the dowry of our sister
who was married sometime ago. Having sold their gold and land, we
are not sure that they will be able to provide anything for our
marriages. Hence the decision to end our lives.''
In Haryana, a prosperous state bordering New Delhi, Supriya Singh,
the 19-year-old granddaughter-in-law of the chief minister, Devi
Lal, was found shot through the neck a few weeks ago and quickly
cremated without an investigation. Her father promptly offered a
younger daughter, Kanta, as a replacement.
``This dowry system has crossed all the barriers,'' Mrs. Dandavate
said. Formerly it was a phenomenon of the Hindu middle class
families in north India.
But now it has gone to different castes, crossed the boundaries of
provinces and crossed the educational and religious barriers also.
Muslims and Christians -- among whom it was never observed -- have
started demanding dowry.
In India, girls, especially Hindu girls, are taught to model
themselves on Sita, the mythological wife of the legendary hero
Rama, who followed her husband into the wilderness and never failed
to do his bidding.
``In a Hindu family, a girl is told from the very beginning that she
has to win over the family that she is married into,'' Mrs Dandavate
said. ``Once she is married, she has nothing to do with her maternal
family.
``She has to make a place for herself in the new family. From
childhood a girl is told that once you go over there you can come
back only as a dead body. You must bear with everything. Don't
complain. Don't come back. The prestige of the family depends on her
staying.''
Mrs. Dandavate said that one of the most encouraging developments
over the last year or two is the willingness of more families to
allow a daughter to return home in time of distress or danger, often
saving her life.
Laws have also been passed requiring prosecution for harassment and
mental torture as well as physical abuse of women. New Delhi and
some other cities have set up special police units for dealing with
crimes against women.
The struggle continues, however, to get the laws enforced. In a
recent book, ``Brides Are Not for Burning,'' the author, Ranjana
Kumar, documented cases of official delays, legal maneuvers and
tampered evidence.
Women's rights advocates are also campaigning to convince other
Indians that women are equal and entitled to equal treatment.
Above all, Mrs. Dandavate said, ``A woman must learn to value her
own life.''
========================================================================
There is a substantial woman's newsletter being published in Delhi,
India. "MANUSHI: A Journal About Women and Society" appears 6 times
yearly, financed by subscriptions and private contributions and with
no advertising. You can order it for a year by sending $19 to:
Manushi Distributors, America
c/o Esther Jantzen
5008 Erringer Place
Philadelphia, PA 19144
A typical edition has 40+ pages of text and photographs; a recent
edition had articles on such topics as:
-- conditions in Delhi slums during the recent cholera epidemic,
with official neglect of contaminated public drinking water and
latrines and misuse of money provided to build sewers
-- the Defamation Bill, which endangers press freedom and privacy
-- how rural Gujarat women, who must fetch water by hand, suffer
due to drought and caste prejudices
-- early 20th-century accounts by two Brahman men of their sisters'
suicides to escape mistreatment by spouse and in-laws
-- sterilizations in exchange for land, and the former practice of
forcing sterilizations (many more women than men)
-- a report on women who are professional spice grinders
-- community mistreatment of mixed hindu-muslim couples who marry
-- status of women in politics and parliament
-- depictions of women in some current TV programs
| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 418.1 | | COGMK::CHELSEA | Mostly harmless. | Fri Jan 27 1989 17:56 | 10 |
| I saw a similar article a few years ago. It was outside the office
of the professor teaching a class on the history of India. One
nit, though:
>social and religious attitudes that have allowed bride-burning,
>or sati, to go on.
Sati (also spelled "suttee") is the practice of burning the widow,
not the bride. The article describes something other than sati,
although it, too, has apparently not disappeared.
|
| 418.3 | It's Widespread... | SLOVAX::HASLAM | Creativity Unlimited | Mon Jan 30 1989 11:44 | 22 |
| Re: .2
Yes, Bob, I remember that one too. I believe the country was
Argentina, and a man could justifiably beat, maim, or kill his wife
for causing any kind of humiliation to the husband's ego (i.e. he
lost "face"). This had led to brutal beatings, burnings, torture,
and murder in many grizzly ways to women all over the country.
One woman was murdered by her husband for wanting to return to school
and get a better education. He felt she was trying to put him down
by becoming "better" than he was so he either shot her or poured
kerosene over her and burned her to death. A few courageous women
have spoken out against this and have finally made a small amount
of headway with the government. Now there are agencies where a
woman can go to file a complaint against brutality, and the husband/
boyfriend will at least have a chance of being put under investigation;
however, the laws are still too lenient to do much else at this
time. There is evidently a small ray of hope, though, that laws
will be changed to protect women in the future. The details on
60 Minutes were pretty graphic and made me feel really angry. I
was "singed" around the edges for days afterward.
Barb
|
| 418.4 | RESPONSE FROM INDIAN | USEM::DONOVAN | | Mon Jan 30 1989 12:56 | 8 |
| Is there an Indian out there who can explain to us the cultural
difference between India and the United States.
I would think most Indian-Americans suffer "culture shock", especially
the women. I would really like to understand.
Kate
|
| 418.5 | | WMOIS::E_FINKELSEN | Set def [.friday_pm] | Mon Jan 30 1989 13:09 | 8 |
| If they insist on killing all of their female children, who are the male
children going to marry? Not to mention the hideousness of such actions, but
even if you were to try to look at it objectively (from their point of view
- which I can't!) it also sounds a counterproductive to me. They will
eventually wipe out their own existance. I'm surprised the population is as
high as it is. Or is it going down?
Another reason to be glad you live in the US!
|
| 418.6 | moderator response | WMOIS::B_REINKE | If you are a dreamer, come in.. | Mon Jan 30 1989 13:30 | 11 |
| May I caution persons writing in this file to be careful about
how they speak about cultures other than their own? Those of
us who are not from the subcontinent of India should be very careful
about how we talk about a society that we know little or nothing
about.
I hope that some of the members of this file who come from India
can address some of these issues for us. (and if anyone so desires
I would be glad to post it anonymously).
Bonnie
|
| 418.7 | It's BRAZIL | COMET::BARRIANO | choke me in the shallow water... | Mon Jan 30 1989 14:30 | 10 |
| .3 (I think)
The country referred to in the 60 minutes show was Brazil.
I'm very sure of that. I have an XSO that caused me alot of pain
I'm still dealing with 3.5 years later. His favorite country in
the world -- Brazil. That story made a lasting impression on me.
Jayna
|
| 418.8 | An Indian's view.. | OMKAR::SANKAR | Arundhati Sankar | Tue Jan 31 1989 10:31 | 33 |
| I am from India. My name is Arundhati Sankar, "Arun" for
short. I came to USA in 1967, I joined DEC in 1969. I am not
too good at writing long notes, hence can't reply to all your
questions. India is very very huge. Its culture is very old,
and has lots of good points and lots of bad points, like
any other culture. Yes, in India "bride burning" happens.
Yes, India chose Indira Gandhi, a woman to lead it for a
long stretch of time. Yes, in India Equal pay is norm in
"white Collar" jobs. Yes, in India 3 months fully paid
maternity leave is a norm ever since I know. (My mother
was shocked to learn that no such concept was existant
in USA in 1970 when I had my first child, or my second child
in 1977). Women in India once they cross the initial barrier
find no more obstacles, unlike women in USA. Here there
is no intial barrier in theory, but there are
several barriers one at every level. Women In India
have entered every profession long long time ago. I graduated
from a full fledged University in India as an Engineer in 1963.
When I came to Univ of Michigan in 1967, I found "girls"
sticking to "nursing" and "teaching", they were more busy
finding a husband than developing a career.
India has its share of good and BAD. Its culture is very very
old, in comparison Amrican culture is in infancy. It is hard to
change when something has gotten into a "rut" or "grove".
Hence USA is changing faster, compared to India in this respect.
Feel free to call me when you want to know a little more about
that Ancient yet living culture. Feel free to come visit me
at home or at work....
Arun (DTN 226-5336, Home 508-689-4779).
|
| 418.9 | It's been covered somewhere | WEA::PURMAL | I want a shoehorn, the kind with teeth | Tue Jan 31 1989 10:36 | 8 |
| There is a conference on India (VAXWRK::INDIA hit KP7 or the
Select key to add it to your notebook). I seem to remember an friend
of mine who notes in it saying that there was a debate about the
wife burning issue there. I also seem to recall a similar topic
in another conference (possibly WOMANNOTES-V1) where someone from
India did reply.
ASP
|
| 418.10 | | RAINBO::TARBET | | Tue Jan 31 1989 10:46 | 9 |
| <--(.8)
Thanks, Arun. It's interesting that in India the only barrier is the
one at the threshold to the profession; it would be nice if that were
true here, too, but as you point out, here the initial one almost
doesn't exist any more (except subtly, in the way children are raised)
but there are plenty afterwards!
=maggie
|
| 418.11 | re. upbringing | SA1794::CHARBONND | I'm the NRA | Tue Jan 31 1989 10:50 | 1 |
| That's not a barrier, it's a ball-and-chain
|
| 418.12 | pointers | SKYLRK::OLSON | Doctor, give us some Tiger Bone. | Tue Jan 31 1989 16:28 | 9 |
| re .9, Tony (ASP)-
I, too, recall previous discussions relating to other cultures'
treatment of women; over in mennotes 268 was one case, and here
in =wn=v2 possibly topic 137 applies. Vikas Sontakke (hope I spelled
that right) did reply in the mennotes discussion. And thanks for
the reminder about the VAXWRK::INDIA conference.
DougO
|
| 418.13 | Bringing it home | REGENT::BROOMHEAD | Don't panic -- yet. | Tue Jan 31 1989 17:30 | 10 |
| Let's bring this discussion into this culture:
The F.B.I. has come to the conclusion that many of the violent
deaths of women in the United States, which are reported as suicide
or as accidental deaths, are really murders.
(I got this from the speaker at the first W.I.T.C.H. lecture I
attended last year.)
Ann B.
|
| 418.14 | DOWRY & FEMALE CHILDREN | TIS::ANANDRAJ | Geetha Anandraj, NRO5/M2, 234-4078 | Wed Feb 01 1989 08:03 | 39 |
|
Bride burning and female infanticide in India is not tied to just Hindus. It
is happening everywhere and in all religions in India. The main reason for
this is the so called 'DOWRY' (gifts the parents used to offer to start a
family to their daughter and the new son-in-law). In India most marriages are
arranged by the parents. Parents choose the bride or the groom for their
children. The trouble starts when it comes to choosing a groom for their
daughter. The parents(bride's) have to agree to give everything that the
groom and/or his family demands if they want their daughter to be married to
this man and that could be anything from houseold items to cash, gold/silver
jewelry, car etc whether they can afford or not. If the women's parents can
afford then there is no problem. Brides who commit the so called 'suicide'
are the daughters of the parents who can't afford but promise the groom and
his family that the dowry will be given within certain number of days/months
(hoping that the groom or his family will change their mind once the woman
is married). When the dowry dosen't arrive in the given time the bride is
tortured to the extent to commit suicide or the bride is murdered (by burning
etc) and made to look like an accident.
Female infanticide has become the only way to avoid this. The women are
aborting the pregnancy once they findout that they are carrying the female
child. I know it is sad but that is the truth. Two of my relatives died
at the early age of 35 because of the dowry that their parents never gave
as promissed. This is my opinion from what I have seen happen to my
relatives. SO PLEASE NO FLAMES. Each and every Indian have their opinion
about this particular matter and it is a very sensitive subject. I for one
refused to get married to anyone who demanded dowry and eventually got married
to the one I wanted with no DOWRY ofcourse - But that is a (long) different
story which messes with cast & religion just like DOWRY.
Regards
Still proud to be an Indian and cherish my culture.
Geetha
|
| 418.15 | warmest regards | ULTRA::ZURKO | Words like winter snowflakes | Wed Feb 01 1989 08:32 | 2 |
| Wow Geetha. I hope someday you'll share some of your stories with us.
Mez
|
| 418.16 | Reply from another Indian | TPS::GOLIKERI | | Wed Feb 01 1989 16:28 | 54 |
| Well, here's another point of view from another Indian woman. I
come from Bombay which may be compared to New York (debatable).
Anyway, I am a Hindu but the dowry system is not predominant in
the religious/cultural group/community that I belong to. Yes, parents
still feel that the bride and groom must be presented with certain
items during there wedding but it is not a dowry.
Since is India is such a heterogeneous country, one cannot and should
not generalize India with what occurs in a particular state or town.
From what I have heard and known the incidents of bride burning
and bride suicide occurs more in the villages where people are not
educated. Of course, this does not mean that it has not happened
in families of "educated" people. But I believe (I may be wrong)
that the occurrence is higher in uneducated society.
I have personally not encountered any such incidents or even heard
of dowry related problems - only read about them in newspapers.
As far as infanticide is concerned I have heard about this practice
being quite widespread even in the USA. The importance of having
a baby boy in a family is certainly held higher than that of having
a baby girl.
As far as equality is concerned I agree with Arun that women have
been appointed to positions momopolized by men since a few decades
ago. I came to the USA in 1980 and was studying to get a Master's
degree in Applied Statistics. I was surprised to see there were
so few woman in the engineering, math related fields. Also, India
is one of the very few countries that had a female Prime Minister
for quite a few years and she was one heck of a woman and politician.
I admired her intelligence, guts and ability to lead.
In the bigger cities the younger generation is slowly getting out
of the "arranged marriage" tradition to finding their own mates.
In fact all my friends and I found our own mates. Of course, the
blessings and approval of the parents is extremely important, since
the father give away the bride in the religious sense - different
from the way it is done here. The presence of the parents is crucial
unless they are deceased, whence the next older member of the family
takes over.
After being so long winded, I was fortunate to marry someone who
made it very clear from the start that even though we do not follow
the dowry system , he did not want any gifts from my parents other
than the ones that they were giving out of love and not duty.
Well, I am sorry that I have not been able to shed light on the
issues to much but have listed my experiences as a young girl growing
up in India and then migrating to the USA on her own with no one
to support me here. And a lot more Indian girls are coming here
on their own and starting a new life with no help - which is not
easy in a new cuntry with a different culture and lifestyle.
Shaila
|
| 418.17 | A Current Affair - tonight | IAMOK::GERRY | Home is where the Cat is | Thu Feb 02 1989 12:31 | 8 |
| For those in the Boston area, Fox 25 is covering this topic tonight
at 7:30 on A Current Affair.
From what I heard on the radio this morning, it sounds as though
they are covering the topics related to Argentina.
cin
|
| 418.18 | Take it with a pound of salt | SERPNT::SONTAKKE | Vikas Sontakke | Thu Feb 02 1989 15:31 | 3 |
| "Current Affair" is the "National Enquirer" of TV journalism.
- Vikas
|
| 418.19 | Thanks for Another Perspective | USEM::DONOVAN | | Fri Feb 03 1989 14:18 | 7 |
| I'd like to thanks the Indians for shining some light on a difficult
subject.
I have always been enchanted by the magic of India. I'd love to
go there.
|
| 418.20 | Unacknowledged .nes no problem | METOO::LEEDBERG | Render Unto Peaches | Sat Feb 04 1989 12:46 | 34 |
|
The issues that have been discussed here are interesting,
especially if we move the culture to the North American
continent to a country of wealth, education and power.
While we do not have "bride burnings" we do have wife
beating/killing that not only goes unprosecuted but is
not disapproved of by the segment of society that is in
a postition to do something about it.
While we do not have a "dowry" system we do have men
leaving women and children in proverty while they go off
and find another women to provide them with unpaid labor.
There are segments of our culture where a woman who's
husband/man has left her can not return home to her family.
All of this is not alien to us, why do we persist in saying
"tsk, tsk" to other cultures treatment of women and children
when the difference is this culture is better at ignoring
and hidding what happens to women/children.
_peggy
(-)
|
To recognize and admit that there is a
problem is the first step in fixing it.
We in the US have yet to really acknowledge
the fact that we have a problem that needs
to be fixed.
|