Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    Linda-
    
     Now might be a good time for you to reevaluate your relationship
    with your friend. There may be several reasons for his inability
    or unwillingness to give you what you want. You definitely need
    to talk to him seriously about why this difference in want vs. actual
    affection/depth_of_relationship exists. There may be a perfectly
    valid reason why he is unable to give you more at this time. If
    you really want him, you may have to pay the price. On the other
    hand, he may simply be selfish, thus unwilling to give anymore than
    he is already; after all, he is already getting so much.
    
     Remember, he is also a human being, whose wants and desires may
    not mesh entirely with your own. A good heart to heart may give
    you enough information to make a wise decision, whatever that may
    be. 
    
     Good luck-
    
    -E

    You may want to consider backing off for awhile and dating other
    men.  This does *not* mean that you shouldn't date your current
    SO, it may just give both of you a little breathing space to determine
    what it is you really want.  Talk to your SO and find out if and
    where he wants your relationship to go from here.  Share your feelings
    as gently as you can, but be honest about your concerns.  If the
    relationship won't stand up to honesty, it may not be worth having.
        
    Please let us know how things work out for you.
        
    Warm Thoughts,
        
    Barb

    Linda
    
    I think a lot of men are slower to realize what there true feeling
    are than women (now not all men, just a lot).  I've been happily
    married for 1 1/2 years now.  When we were dating he never really
    told me how I felt and I never pushed it.  I knew how I felt.  I
    was madly in love but never announced my feelings to him.  I didn't
    want to hear those three little words from him just because I said
    them first.  Well after we were together for 11 months I went on
    a trip to Barbados with 3 of my girlfriends.  When I came back he
    picked me up at the airport and proposed.  We went out to dinner
    and he had tears in his eyes.  He told me that he felt like he lost
    his best friend (I was only gone for 8 days). 
    
    So maybe he just needs a break to realize how he really feels about
    you.  
    
    Good luck, Pam

    There may/may not be reasons that he "keeps you at an arm's length"
    - but, either way, it is not your problem.
    
    I agree w/ several of the other noters: reevaluate the relationship,
    be sure to discuss this w/ him, and begin to see others.  Perhaps
    this will give you some idea as to how much you both mean (or maybe
    - do NOT mean) to each other.  And, of course, the openness and
    honesty you display is to be commended.  
    
    If, after dating others (wh/ will take some time), you miss him
    a great deal but the feeling is not mutual...you will suffer a loss.
    Hopefully that won't happen but if it does, remember that the closeness
    just wasn't there.  Nine months of togetherness should be a pretty
    good indication of just how much "love" is there.
    
    I hope that you keep in mind that "love" is not a tangible thing;
    it comes in many different flavors and many different textures.
    Vanilla for one couple may taste like chocolate to another couple.
    The same goes for individuals.  Just because you do not feel you
    are getting adequate "love vibes" does not mean that he does not
    love you.  Maybe he shows his love differently than other men you
    have encountered in the past....just think, this may render him
    "special".  (And we all know how important it is to have "special"
    people in our lives....).
    
    Don't write him off completely because he fears involvement, either
    - just keep him in your open file and browse around....there may
    be some heavyduty reasons behind the fear.
    
    Good luck - I hope the outcome of the situation results in hapiness
    for you....and lots of smiles, of course! **
    
    cath.

    I am not in need of someone to say "I love you" to me.  I expect
    to feel wanted, needed, desired, etc.  I rarely get those feelings
    unless we get involved in a heart-to-heart discussion that I start.
    I never push for committment, marriage, etc.  These heart-to-heart
    discussion usually involve me, as gentle as possible, expressing my
    feelings, desires, needs and so on.
    
    I expect the work of a relationship to be carried equally.  It is
    not carried equally here.  I am only made to feel special when we
    manage to get away for a weekend together.  
    
    I want to feel special more often.  I want to be treated like I
    am an important part of his life.  I am not sure if I am willing
    to settle for just feeling something between ok and good about our
    relationship.
    
    I like the idea of putting some breathing space between us.  He
    is out of town this week....so I have plenty of time to think and
    evaluate the relationship and what I want.
    
    I appreciate all the ideas...it has given me a great deal of food
    for thought.
    
    Linda

in response to the "what if this is all you can get" thought:

A relationship in which your needs are frustrated, denied, not valued, 
or not sufficiently met is far, far worse than no relationship at all.  It might
seem paradoxical; after all, a little is more than none, isn't it?  But the 
thing is, that little wears away at your self-respect and tells you 
everyday that you are someone who doesn't deserve to be responded to for 
who you are.  It's unlikely that this is the only chance you'll ever 
have for human intimacy.  It might feel that way for now, but once you 
find ways to rebuild your self-esteem you'll be able to get a little more 
perspective on it.   Sometimes saying, NO, I WON'T take this can be a 
big step towards placing value on yourself and helping you get to a 
point where you know you deserve better and you can get it.

Another thing to consider is [as a gross generality] that men are not trained
to express their emotions the same way women are. (I know, this has come up a
million times before, but something about the way .7 was phrased reminded me of
it.) I am _still_ training myself to recognise the ways Joe shows his love. For
example, I show mine by wanting to have deep, meaningful talks. He shows his by
wanting to be in the same room as me. Perhaps you could spend some time
supporting _his_ chosen expressions of affection (even if he doesn't 'know'
what they are) instead of cultivating yours.
	Mez

    
    I just want to say that I agree wholeheartedly with .-1 and with
    the notes that suggest seeing other people. 
    
    You can spend your effort trying to change someone who doesn't want
    to change into what you want him to be, or you can be smart and
    either accept what you have, or look for what you want, need and
    are reasonable to expect in someone else. 
    
    I may be one of the young 'uns in this file, but I learned a long
    time ago that you can't make someone into something else if they
    don't want it.
    
    Roberta
           

    People do  change,  often  because  they're trying to please their
    lovers.  Many  of the changes that I've made have been in response
    to  gentle  pressure  from my lovers. I wouldn't have changed if I
    didn't  want  to, but in one case I didn't know I wanted to change
    until  Norma brought it up. In fact, most of the changes that I've
    been happiest about making have been abbetted by my lovers.

    The question is whether he's involved enough to want to change for
    you,  and  whether  he believes the changes that you need are good
    for him.

--David

    re -.12
    
    Some of the examples given in Eagle's reply indicate to me that
    he is sensitive to many of the needs expressed in the base note.
    And that apparently sets him apart from your SO.
    
    But I can't agree with the advise to give 75% and be happy with
    what you have.
    
    I was married to a man who considered it the woman's duty to carry
    the load in a relationship.  (Your description of your SO could be
    a description of my ex-husband.)  I was married to him for 15 years
    before I realized what it was doing to me and to my self-image to be
    the one who cared and expressed and gave.  Then I got out (even at the
    expense of losing daily contact with my children), and that was
    the healthest thing I've ever done.
    
    But my response to that situation doesn't necessarily make it the
    correct response for Linda.  My advise to her is to listen to her
    head and her heart.  Is this relationship taking a toll on you,
    or is it making you more than you were?  Ask yourself Ann Lander's
    (or is it Abbie's?) classic question:  Am I better off in this
    relationship than I am out of it?  Only you can know the answer
    to that.
    
    And as for the doubts expressed about the quality of man who's
    available today, don't believe it.  Sure, there are some real losers
    out there, and I can tell you from experience that a lot of them
    hang out in singles bars and at singles dances.  But, I can also
    tell you from experience that there are some real gems hidden where
    you least expect to find them, and they're well worth the search.
    
    Good luck to you as you consider your options.
    
    Karen
    

    re: .12 and .14
    
    After 9 months of togetherness I expect different feelings than
    I had at 2 months.  I don't think my expections are out-of-line 
    or unrealistic.  I don't want to feel like 'it is nice to have you 
    around, but I wouldn't miss you if you weren't here'.  Granted, 9 
    months is not a great deal of time and we are no longer on our best 
    behavior,  but it sure would be nice to have him ask me how my day 
    went.  
    
    I know I can't change someone to be someone I want them to be. 
    I'm only asking for a little consideration.  And if that is too
    much to ask then maybe it is time to move on.
    
    Linda

>but it sure would be nice to have him ask me how my day went.  

I'm sorry, I can't help but laugh. It sounds so much like us. So I settle for 
"How did your day go?" and "Here's what happened with me." It's not bad when
the love is real, but it would really suck otherwise.
	Mez

    My friend and I finally had a heart-to-heart.  And what all of this
    has come down to is, he is not happy with his life, career, etc,
    and therefore there is little energy or happiness left to put into
    a relationship.  He spends so much time dwelling on what's wrong
    in his life, that he cannot possible think about working on a
    relationship.  And it is so true that you can not get your happiness
    through another person.  You must be happy with yourself before
    you can possible consider sharing your happiness with another person.
    
    So, the decision I have made is to give him as much space as possible
    to sort out his own problems, while I continue to pursue my own
    interests and maybe some new friendships.
    
    Linda    

< Note 412.18 by CSC32::L_CHUMBLEY >


>while I continue to pursue my own
>    interests and maybe some new friendships.
    
	I am coming into this a little late - the above is what
	I would have suggested you do only I would have stated
	it a little stronger.

	Pursue you own interest, meet new people (the part about
	dating others is minor IMHO), just find out more about
	who you are.  Your issue is in knowing who you are and 
	what you need/want and let your SO know your needs and
	expectation.

	_peggy

		(-)
		 |
			Take care of your self
				May the Goddess guide you.